Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Mueller May 26 2003, 02:20 PM

Is the 150 dollar bill worth it? Would I need an external oil-cooler for sure since the oil would be hotter than normal without piston squirters?

Posted by: Scott May 26 2003, 02:23 PM

Mike,

You may want to check with FAT Performance. I think they do. I have their number if you ned it.

Scott

Posted by: Scott May 26 2003, 02:29 PM

Hey Mike,

See Brad's post on his dyno room, and the turbo guy from Garret? Maybe a 914/4 turbo development program is possible???

Posted by: Mueller May 26 2003, 02:36 PM

Hey Scott,

i know of a few shops that'll install them, I want to know if it's worth the extra expense.


Brad know's I'm doing the Turbo motor, but there is no real market for a /4 turbo kit...it's not worth SSI do spend money on a project that will get tons of emails and questions from dreamers that have no intentions on ever buying it.

Posted by: Bleyseng May 26 2003, 02:39 PM

That was Bernie Bergman's experience on his turbo kit years ago, lots of talk, no money.
Geoff

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 26 2003, 02:41 PM

Not worth it.

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 26 2003, 02:43 PM

I'll *probably* persue a turbo kit. But I promise it wont be cheap and it will all fit and work perfectly before ever going to market.

Expect a 3-4k price tag.

Intercooled.. laptop programmable injection/boost controller.

After we finish 3-4 exhaust projects.

B

Posted by: Aaron Cox May 26 2003, 03:02 PM

i read in hot vw's, that the type 1 crowd has a teepee style turbo setup. kinda cool! runs a weber sidedraft...kinda slick

Posted by: Bleyseng May 26 2003, 03:02 PM

Will it have the option of NOS?

Geoff

Posted by: Mark Henry May 26 2003, 05:08 PM

Mike, if your rods are nice and tight on the shoulder you could cut a grove say .015-.020 deep and .100-.150 wide pointed towards the piston. If you’re running a BFP (big f-in’ pump) you won’t have any oil control problems.
I’ve done this before on beetle engines. Oil temps won’t change.

Posted by: MJHanna May 27 2003, 06:59 AM

It depends on what your doing with the motor. I had done to the engine I run on the track. When your shoveling money into a track engine, another $150 was trivia.

Posted by: Bleyseng May 31 2003, 10:32 PM

This is the mods I have done, is this what you are talking about??
Geoff


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 1 2003, 01:03 AM

I dont think that is what he is talking about..

He wants the 3mm squirters that go into the main webs and "shoot" oil onto the backside of a piston like a 911 engine.


B

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 1 2003, 05:10 AM

With the 30mm pump he's planning on running the groove in the rod will do the same thing.

You read the PP post, didn't you Geoff! Ya beat me to the posting of the pic!

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 1 2003, 09:06 AM

Yes I did! But this is the pic I was looking for and couldn't find. Its a good mod for the rods and it doesn't cost $150. Was recommended for GD,GE and GC motors by VW.
Geoff

Posted by: seanery Jun 1 2003, 09:08 AM

what pic?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 1 2003, 09:14 AM

the one I posted previously. What the hell is all that space from?
Gawd I just woke up, stayed up til 2 cuz I went and saw the Matrix movie!!!


Geoff

Hey, we need a little guy holding a coffee cup for morning posts!!!

Posted by: r_towle Oct 26 2014, 08:23 AM

Brining this back up to the front of the line for more details please.
Not sure , based upon the picture, where this groove gets cut.
Does anyone have a rod to show that this modification has been completed?

Rich

Posted by: McMark Oct 26 2014, 11:58 AM

I've never seen the rod notch in person and I'm doubtful it's effective at squirting. Here's a pic or real Porsche squirters installing in a Type 1 case. Thanks for bringing this up. I'm gonna pursue it for my 2270

Posted by: stugray Oct 26 2014, 12:15 PM

isnt there also a mod that drills a very small hole in the side of the rod and squirts oil out?

I read something about it but I never saw a picture.
Maybe that was to squirt oil on the cylinder walls....

Posted by: McMark Oct 26 2014, 12:29 PM

Here's that mod.

The real Porsche squirters have a ball check valve inside. This closes the squirters at idle and maintains oil pressure. IMHO there is no other option.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: McMark Oct 26 2014, 12:31 PM

Check valve opens around 20psi.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: r_towle Oct 26 2014, 06:23 PM

Umm, not always

So a friend came over today to try and get some squirters functioning, seems they get clogged or just stop opening...
Looks like a tough thing to fix, it's drilled in, then it looks like the squirters are peeled over in the 911 case....

I wonder, are there any threaded ones out there?

Mark, thanks for that pic, please document this mod, I will be doing it when I pull the motor apart this winter.....cause I just can't leave it alone, and I need to change out the camshaft.....so while I am in there, this seems like a very good idea to help out.

Rich

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 26 2014, 06:42 PM

I've cut notches in rods, I'd say it likely slings rather than squirts, but oil pressure has always been fine and I'm guessing it helps.

I've also replaced 911 squirters, it not a hard job at all, just on the wallet, those puppies are about $50 ea IIRC. Make sure you test them first they are likely fine. They can stick open or closed, seafoam or MEK will often free them up. Careful with MEK if you use it, nasty stuff.

I don't really like the squriter in rod mod, I wouldn't do it.

Posted by: McMark Oct 26 2014, 07:04 PM

911 squirters are often replaced as a peace-of-mind repair. AFAIK, the factory installed 911 squirters are pressed in from the bearing side so removal is just a matter or tapping them back out. The quick retrofit version is to dril from the case register, tap them in and peen them over. But you should be able to tap them out with a rod inserted from the bearing side of the hole.

I'll be doing it the factory way which leaves a little seat material to keep the squirters from popping out.

Posted by: JimN73 Oct 26 2014, 07:08 PM

Somebody, Nate (aircoledtechguy), posted a photo of this. Maybe he can repost.

Posted by: wndsnd Oct 26 2014, 07:21 PM

Not sure about this Mark, from the bearing side these are probably over 2" down their bore.
I would say the factory pressed in from the cylinder side and gave them a peen for good measure.

John

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 27 2014, 04:04 AM

The one case half it's impossible to go from the backside and the passages don't go from the bearings, the case half stud holes doubles as oil galleys, that's where they are fed from.
They are barely pressed in if at all, the peen does it all. You just drill the peens off and jam a screw in and a small slide hammer then pop it out easy-peasy. Drop the new one in and three new peens lock it in.

BUT if they are working fine I see absolutely no reason to replace them, other than to waste money.
Also you can easily test them to see if they are working proper.
BTDT

Posted by: DBCooper Oct 27 2014, 06:55 AM

It's detailed in a VW tech bulletin, one (of several) that also recommend elimination of the aluminum/copper head gaskets. A copy here; http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/www.dolphinsci.com/techbull.html

I don't know why they wouldn't work. Pretty straightforward, cheap, easy to do, won't clog, shouldn't affect oil pressure and they'll be slinging oil as long as you have it. Nothing really to lose, I don't see a down side.

It's neat to see these old threads come up again with names that haven't been around for a while. Like old friends showing up.

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2014, 10:10 AM

Oil pressure is based on a certain amount of restriction in the system. The more restriction, the higher the oil pressure. And the opposite is true. So if you notch your rods, you're adding a drain to the system and it will lower oil pressure somewhat. BUT if VW recommended it, there is a certain amount of confidence about doing the mod.

But my armchair-engineering makes me think that a V notch in the rod isn't an effective 'squirter' since I don't see how it could squirt. It'll throw more oil at the piston in a sloppy, brute-force manner.

I think a true squirter, aimed correctly and which shuts itself off when oil pressure is low is a much better approach.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 27 2014, 10:28 AM

"Better", of course! But is the notch "good enough"? Is it an improvement over no notch? I'm guessing it is at least an improvement...

--DD

Posted by: DBCooper Oct 27 2014, 01:27 PM

Yeah, it would be great to know VW's engineering data, but I can't see that it would lower oil pressure all that much. It's a 'v' notch, with the outlet to the rod side clearance way down at the point of the 'v', so it's actually pretty small. By the time the oil gets there it's already past the bearing shell and escaping anyway, so it seems like this is mostly just providing one point as an outlet instead of the whole circumference of the journal, so oil that before was flung out randomly is now kind of concentrated on the back of the piston. "kind of" concentrated, so definitely not as precise as squirter nozzles, but not bad in terms of bang for the buck.

Posted by: rudedude Oct 27 2014, 01:56 PM

They might be great until your 6 cylinder isn't at quite the oil pressure it use to be and you drain the oil and find most of a squirter laying in the bottom of the case. Now time for a total teardown and rebuild for that peened in squirter that porsche couldn't quite peen well enough to hold in.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2014, 02:57 PM

Seems doing this modification to the big end might just be easier and well, easier.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7wuNuuEoN7Y

Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2014, 03:01 PM

Interesting
Carrillo Rods do this modification also

http://www.cp-carrillo.com/tech/rodtech/tabid/76/default.aspx

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2014, 10:54 PM

Took a look at a spare case today. Looks like a pretty straightforward mod. Now to order a set and do a mockup install.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 28 2014, 06:12 AM

From what I read, it is not straight...

A slight angle from the seat to the squirters to get it aimed correctly.

Please take a few pics of how you machine it.....looks like a hairy thing to drill

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 28 2014, 07:05 AM

Notching the rods is simple and effective.

Posted by: aircooledtechguy Oct 28 2014, 10:30 AM

Takes about 2 minutes per rod with a fine triangle file.



Oil is lazy just like air and will take the path of least resistance. Give it a pathway and you'll have a cheap and effective stream of oil at the base of your piston. Basically you're funneling the oil that would otherwise splash off the rod from the rod bearing and directing a portion of that splash where you want it at the piston crown.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 28 2014, 06:05 PM

One of the things I saw, which I can't seem to find again, showed a notch on both sides, offset to spray in different directions.
So instead of the notch being at 6 o'clock, it was at 7 on one side and 5 on the other side....so it would spray both ways.

Posted by: jcd914 Oct 28 2014, 06:31 PM

I saw a you tube video where someone was machining offset notches, one on each side.
They both pointed at the piston, just one would be offset to the top some and the other to the bottom. seemed reasonable to me.
His mill was set up off center of the rod and he just flipped the rod over to do the other side.

Jim

Posted by: r_towle Oct 28 2014, 06:34 PM

Interesting to look at the Carrillo rods.
They have a galley going up to the small end of the rod...think about that modification...

Posted by: aircooledtechguy Oct 28 2014, 06:37 PM

Doing what you describe would have ZERO effect since the rods are always in motion in relation to the piston. This motion ensures that the spray is constantly moving across the piston crown on both sides. That would only be a factor if the rod stayed in a static position in relation to the piston.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 28 2014, 06:38 PM

Carrillo cuts them offset also....figure they might have done a little bit of research, maybe...

Posted by: McMark Oct 28 2014, 06:44 PM

But I still highly doubt this comes out as a stream. I suspect this increases the amount of oil being slung by the crank, which increases the amount of oil hitting the back of the piston.

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 28 2014, 08:24 PM

Really that's all that matters...

Posted by: Katmanken Oct 28 2014, 08:43 PM

That sounds expensive. Takes a really long small diameter drill bit if they drilll. Hard to do as small diameter bits have a tendency to bend and wander out of the side on long holes. GE jet engines tried drilling jet engine turbilne blades for cooling ( about the same dril length) and went to long ram Electrical Discharge Machining (EDM) probes to burn passages in the turbine blades.

Posted by: McMark Oct 28 2014, 10:15 PM

True, but I tend to get stuck on semantics.

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 29 2014, 04:54 AM

No shit....ADD, ADHD, ...I just got to forget the OCD and get my projects done.

Posted by: falcor75 Oct 29 2014, 05:09 AM

If you want threaded squirters you can grab them from any 1.8t engined vw/audi in the scrapyard, I think most turboengined Saab engines had them too, at least from ~1994 and up to 2003.

Here's a pic how they look in a AEB engine (VW Passat/Adui A4 1.8t 150 hp)

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Pitguy/media/audi003.jpg.html