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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Purchase price vs. resale price
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 01:35 PM
I am sure I am going to get much banter, good, bad, and ugly for this post. But I just have to bring this up.
It is about all the talk I read about appropriate purchase prices of any teener.
It seems as though a great multitude of people are hell bent that a teener should never cost anybody more than maybe 2k.
Yet the parts for this car is easily on par with a full-on Porsche 911,928, etc. Particularly the engine--it is a vw unit developed ( in conjunction with Porsche??)--I could easily rebuild a flat six for the same if not much less than the cost of a higher power / reliable IV model.
We as a group are spending an absurd amount of time and greenbacks to get our cars to our personal level--yet the consensus I read is that after all this is done the cars are worth absolutely s*#t compared to the comparables. In my humble opinion this needs to stop, I see much foot shooting going on here. Do we as a group really want to invest all of the above and then by our own methods and verbalizations intentially keep the cars ...ahem..."CHEAP"?
Now do not get me wrong--I am all about "affordable" , but would rather see "affordable" vs. CHEAP and LESS than it could / should be.
I have an newer issue of "Excellance" and they are reporting the 914's are on the rise--We as a group have it within our power to change this trend for the worse if carefull thought is not applied to what is being said, sold, and bought.
I do not want to pump 10k into my car from rustoration, upgrades, only to only get maybe 2k for it if I was in the need.
I realize that right now I would be hard pressed to get what only I have in it, not to include my personal labor hours, which so far has exceeded 500 easily at a shop rate of $55.00 an hour---the OTHER Porsches do tho...............
I see too many nice cars for sale and people asking what they are worth and then saying that same nice car that is in good repair should only be " $900.00,,Tops" This is not going to cut it--we should be following the examples as set out in our newsstand advocate--"Excellance"
Just think about this for a moment before spouting off------I see much shooting of the feet in here--lets get smarter--and help the market adjust our beloved to the affordable level--not the out of reach level--We need parts that are of high quality, yet not priced exorbitantly--do you want to sell 10 at a 100.00, or 1000 at 50.00?? For every person that can afford a 10k type IV motor, there are possibly hundreds if not thousands who cannot. Just not dirt cheap to begin with an excellant example and then pour another thousands into it to make it our own and then get nothing for the fruits of our labor...........
It makes me sick to read about some poor schmo that bought a 2.5k rebuild cause that is what he could afford, and then have nothing but problems with it--then get berated about: " Told you so"..when the type 1 crowd can have 200+ hp for LESS THAN 3K----------I might just put a type 1 in mine and save 7k, or more--
Just as an example: For the time and money I am putting into my car--I could have easily purchased a late 70's-early 80's 911, rebuilt the motor, put good wheels and tires on it--and probably a minor interior / exterior upgrade--and easily sell it for more than I bought it / upgraded it for--------
I want to thank all of you that manufacture worthwhile products AND also price them accordingly---some others out there could possibly do some homework----We need to help the market as a whole with resale values----3000 members (almost) in a small community as the 914 is, is strong JEDI......yes, we are strong.........
If I have offended anybody I do not apologize--this is a forum for adult lively discussion--I would ask no less from anybody else. This post is NOT to any one person(s)--it is just a discussion.
But if things do not begin to change before I dump my talents and cash into this--I will go the 911 route
Point is: " I should not put 10k plus into my car and then expect to get for it what I am reading in here!, which is crap.........."
Posted by: brant Dec 27 2004, 01:39 PM
I'm not trying to start a flame war either... but I don't actually agree with the statement about building a flat 4 for the same price as a flat 6...
I'm not saying that its not possible.. but In my experience:
the last 2 flat4 race motors I had were 6k each...
and if I were to build a full flat 6 race motor I think it would run 8-10K... (and I know people with 20K into them)
brant
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Dec 27 2004, 11:39 AM) |
| I'm not trying to start a flame war either... but I don't actually agree with the statement about building a flat 4 for the same price as a flat 6... I'm not saying that its not possible.. but In my experience: the last 2 flat4 race motors I had were 6k each... and if I were to build a full flat 6 race motor I think it would run 8-10K... (and I know people with 20K into them) brant |
I noticed your caveat: RACE motor---try to think: Daily driver motor.Yes, you are correct if going the race route---I am talking about a rebuild only--a good one tho--but not race.
My type IV will cost me more for 180 hp than a 180 hp 911 stocker----this is what I mean..
Thanks for the input--and have a red stripe on me ( or non-alcoholic)
Posted by: SirAndy Dec 27 2004, 01:48 PM
| QUOTE |
| It seems as though a great multitude of people are hell bent that a teener should never cost anybody more than maybe 2k. |
always pisses me off. i wouldn't sell my car for anything under $20k.
don't care what other people *think* it is worth ...
Andy
Posted by: brant Dec 27 2004, 01:49 PM
but I duth protest:
a rebuild -6 with 180hp will cost more than a rebuilt -4 with 180hp....
If you were buying a 3.0/6 with 180hp and NOT factoring in the rebuild cost then yes somewhat true....
Of course you can buy a NON rebuilt big -4 too and compare used prices to used prices...
but overall I agree with your thread.. I'm just saying that a -6 motor and the cost to convert are often under-estimated.... and New to New or used to used would be the aples to oranges arguement.
brant
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 01:54 PM
oh no man--converting my teener to six is not what I meant----like, on the website, Motorcar investments, which is where my supervisor bought his 912--he can get 911's, (SC models) for 8-12k all day--and I am talking very good examples--put another 5k in, with all I talked about, and you can easily get what you put into it.
I used to work at a german shop--and we could rebuild slightly modified sixes--( as long as the cylinders are good) easily for 3k,,,tops.
I should have inserted this info into the thread, I could see how it would be misleading..........cheers
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 02:02 PM
Shortly ago I figured up what I will have in my teener--close to 18k, to include personal labor hours.
If I was not sooo in love with the teener, and went the 911 sc route, I would have an excellant example car to begin with, with upgrades--for about 14-17k when all is said and done, to include personal labor hours.
oh well...........guess I'll have another beer 
Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 27 2004, 02:28 PM
The flaw in your argument is If your buying then fixing your car as an investment your wasting your time 
Buy it for what you think is fair fix it to your level of satisfaction and drive it...for the sheer enjoyment of the experiance.
Then you wont be dissapointed. 
Posted by: JOHNMAN Dec 27 2004, 02:28 PM
I know what you mean about return on investment with the 914's. That is basically why my street car is virtually stock. If I ever sell it, I wouldn't even be able to recoup the cost of restoration from 13 years ago. I have driven it though. I bet I could easily sell it for the same money I paid for it.
When I re-did that car I swore it was the last 914 I would do, but here I am re-doing a couple more.....
I have fun doing the work (maybe not all the time) and I miss doing it when I am done....
It is a hobby.
Nuff said...
Posted by: synthesisdv Dec 27 2004, 02:28 PM
I don't know many people that make money fixing up their old cars.
They are money pits but we do it because it is our passion.
Regarding the 911's. Man you can spend upwards of $50,000 on any one of them. There was an article in excellence a while ago about 2 911 SC's that were fixed up and each owner spent about that much.
And a nice teener is easily worth between $5,000 and $10,000
So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts. 
Posted by: jim912928 Dec 27 2004, 02:33 PM
I agree with jwalters....I believe our cars are gaining in value and respect in the porsche community. I've probably got about 10k in mine (and that is not including my time value)...and I'd expect to get alot more then 2k for mine. For example, there was a post on here today asking about a value for a 914 on ebay..not running but repainted...body looked clean..etc....immediately it's down to only worth 900 bucks ...come on now that is bizarre...my 95 jeep was just totalled...not even driveable and I could buy it back for 1600...only thing useable in my jeep was the interior and high mileage engine.
Point is, the more we keep the value of these cars down the more likely we are hurting not only our own investments but the real/perceived value of our cars. I'm not into this for making money nor even recouping my investment (it's a fun thing for me)...but I do want to see the value of our cars continue to rise. Rising values will tell the community to keep investing in parts/enhancements and support. All things that go away when a car has no real perceived value!
Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 27 2004, 02:37 PM
| QUOTE (synthesisdv @ Dec 27 2004, 12:28 PM) |
| So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts. |
Yeah, I keep those out of sight!
Posted by: Cloudbuster Dec 27 2004, 02:44 PM
I think that for the normal individual, there is very little money to be made off any one car, period. You’ll NEVER get your time or money investment back on a car unless you got an absolutely great deal on the car being used as a base, and even then they’re usually more curse than blessing. I think the only money to be made on cars is as a dealer or professional restorer.
Thanks to my former boss (who is now on a 356 bender – a coupe, a speedster, and restoring an SC and a Carrera 2) I’ve been privileged to hang around with big(ger) money Porsche types. One person said he only made money on ONE car in his twenty of years buying, selling and dealing with collectible cars -- 910s, 911s, Abarths, etc.
You also need to think of who you’re competing with and who you are selling to. Unless your $12+5k improved SC is significantly better, and appeals to just the right person (who has to have it now), you’ve moved the car into the next price bracket. Your car is working at the high end of its price bracket, and now has to deal with other (better?) cars at the low end of the next price bracket. Example: You have a beautiful ’71 1.7 tailshifter for $4K with non-stock options, and somebody is selling a worn, but good condition ’73 2.0 sideshifter for $5k. I’d be going for the ‘73.
You can complain about the wine-and-cheese-ers but they are the ones that have the scratch to throw $20k at a car that can sit in a garage and look pretty most of the time. They are also willing to put up with the foibles and quirks of a part-time driver car that is ‘correct’ rather than have the 'better' later-model that isn’t correct, no matter how much ‘nicer’ the seller thinks it is.
I think that expecting 'good' resale any car that isn't restored to showroom stock is not wise. Personal preference varies dramatically, and the only 'real' standard that would conform to the widest audience is showroom stock. The wider the audience, the greater likelihood that somebody will pay top dollar for your car.
There problem is that nobody values your time and choices like you do. A car is a set of compromises and the set you’ve chosen will most likely not match the set of compromises the next person is willing to accept. I don’t want a car that somebody else has worked on, because I get the impression that there is a bunch of ‘un-work’ to be done to reverse the compromises the previous owner found accept get the car to a desirable base.
One thing I see a bad in rising values is there is less money for aftermarket parts. The cheaper the car, the more cash we as a community have to squander on Konis, roller suspension bushings and whatnot. Those things make 914s better. Inflated values do nothing to make the car better or improve the bottom lines of the entrepreneurs.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 02:46 PM
| QUOTE (synthesisdv @ Dec 27 2004, 12:28 PM) |
| I don't know many people that make money fixing up their old cars. They are money pits but we do it because it is our passion. Regarding the 911's. Man you can spend upwards of $50,000 on any one of them. There was an article in excellence a while ago about 2 911 SC's that were fixed up and each owner spent about that much. And a nice teener is easily worth between $5,000 and $10,000 So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts. |
hehe--thats good--just throw away your receipts--hehe----- There is no reason what-so-ever that the teener could not be worth much more than what is general right now-----And when people say no-one has made money on a car---are you sure??? That is done every day--hell a morris mini cooper has more value than our cars right now---what is that saying?????
There is no reason why our passion could not reap the benifits it deserves---except we intentionally keep our own prices down and pay out of the ass for most parts. Who is getting rich here??? Certainly not us--cause we intentionally buy and resale soooo cheap, that even a '73 super beetle commands more market price of an average of 7k plus for a so-so car.
This is exactly what I mean. I am glad there is sooo many people out there with sooo much money to burn to not even think of the ramifications of the teener.
Oh well, just a rant I guess---until more people smarten up and see these cars for their true value---we will all keep pissing up that rope.
Beer for everyone now!!!!
ps. Syn, this was not directed to you--I just got a kick out of your quote..
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (jim912928 @ Dec 27 2004, 12:33 PM) |
| I agree with jwalters....I believe our cars are gaining in value and respect in the porsche community. I've probably got about 10k in mine (and that is not including my time value)...and I'd expect to get alot more then 2k for mine. For example, there was a post on here today asking about a value for a 914 on ebay..not running but repainted...body looked clean..etc....immediately it's down to only worth 900 bucks ...come on now that is bizarre...my 95 jeep was just totalled...not even driveable and I could buy it back for 1600...only thing useable in my jeep was the interior and high mileage engine. Point is, the more we keep the value of these cars down the more likely we are hurting not only our own investments but the real/perceived value of our cars. I'm not into this for making money nor even recouping my investment (it's a fun thing for me)...but I do want to see the value of our cars continue to rise. Rising values will tell the community to keep investing in parts/enhancements and support. All things that go away when a car has no real perceived value! |
Dude, that was awsome!!I couldn't have said it better---what a minute...I guess I didn't.. Thank you so much for saying this--it is true---
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 27 2004, 02:54 PM
This is the whole reason why I ceased so much 914 development engine wise...
Basically the 914 group won't spend more than what it takes to do a job "Bare bones"
The beetle following is much different and so is the 356 and 914 market.
The 914 is gaining popularity and recognition everyday, BUT thats not gonna help guys like me, that end up helping make the cars even better unless people start opening their wallets.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 02:57 PM
Hey cloudbuster- I was not talking about doing it for a living---I was talking about how an arguably better car, with better resale, or holding power, can in the long run be cheaper than what we are doing to ours. And resale much better...............
Try to focus on NOT doing a full-on rebuild with the other porsches( as most of them do not need it anyway), as most DO with the teener ( which SHOULD command a very good price, even if not done to concours) Those people putting 50k into a very good to start 911 are porsche fanatics who have much money to burn--that is not what I am talking about...Jim912928 hit the target on the head with this one.
I am just comparing how one could do very well with about 16k investment in another porsche model and us putting arguably much more into ours and then get nothing for it----
That is what has got my goat.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 02:59 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Dec 27 2004, 12:54 PM) |
| This is the whole reason why I ceased so much 914 development engine wise... Basically the 914 group won't spend more than what it takes to do a job "Bare bones" The beetle following is much different and so is the 356 and 914 market. The 914 is gaining popularity and recognition everyday, BUT thats not gonna help guys like me, that end up helping make the cars even better unless people start opening their wallets. |
True, very true--and then when they do open their wallets and then have to sell the car they put so much time and money into---HOLD YOUR GROUND AND GET YOUR JUST REWARDS!!!!!
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 03:08 PM
Cloudbuster--I would like to see you go to the nearest posche, audi, bmw, mercedes..etc shop and tell them what you just said in that post----How much you want to bet they would all tell you to go piss up a rope?????
bets,,huh, bets??????
Have another beer man--you need it....
Posted by: aircooledboy Dec 27 2004, 03:12 PM
Sorry bud. I think you are kiddin' yourself if you think that changing the way we talk about our cars is going to have a meaningful impact on their values either way. We here collectively make up probably less than 1/10 0f 1% of folks who would be in the market for a 914. We can all decide amongst ourselves that as of today a decent 914 is worth no less than $5000. The net effect would be the same as deciding that the emperor's new clothes look great. 
If the market thinks it ain't true, then it just ain't. 
The value of 914's will increase as the become harder to find in good shape, and those that do exist are cars that car guys would respect. I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car.
Posted by: pete-stevers Dec 27 2004, 03:15 PM
What the heck are you guys talking about??? If the curent price dictated by the market for a descent teener runs 2 to5 k let just keep this secret to ourselves and buy as many of the damn things as our wife will allow... We have two in the family now... and I would like to buy another one in the next year... if finances don't go in the toilet...
Lets buy em up market price will adjust accordingly, and WE will be the winners!!! 
Posted by: MarkG Dec 27 2004, 03:17 PM
Sold my 308 Ferrari this summer. Bought a '76 914.
For the price of a good Raby motor for our 914's, you could replace the timming belts/gears on my 308. ($4-6k depending on parts/labor)
For the price of a standard economy 2.0 rebuild you could buy the distributor caps and rotors (dual) for my 308. ($500 ea for caps, $130 ea rotors)
For a good used 2.0 -3.0 911 motor you could buy my windshield. Add a 308 clutch/flywheel job and you could do an entire 6 conversion.....($6k +...)
Price is all relevant.....it just depends on what it's worth to you. Nothing wrong with spending thousands on a 914 if that's what you want, you will never recoupe your investment, but for me spending money on my 914 is for my pleasure, not investment.
I will say this though: NEVER but an "F" car.......stick with the "P" cars.....
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 03:20 PM
to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it...........
Posted by: brant Dec 27 2004, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I agree with what chris said.
I sold an SC to spend more money on a 914.
If you think an SC at 14K is a better car then fine
also realize that some person out there will make the argument about their dodge neon being better than a 914 or a 911...
(heck an SRT neon will dust them both on the street and on the track for only 18K)
but I don't like neon's...
I like 914's (I like 911's too but not as much as 914's)
The point is that all car guys sink double the money into their cars as they could get out of them.. 911 guys sink a ton of money into their cars too.. Look at the original selling price of a car. In their day a 914 was 5k and a 911 was 7-8K. There are/were a lot of 914's made, so its a tough argument to say that they are so rare that they should out valube a 911.
I agree with the market value arguments.
If you want 914's to be worth 20K then let me sell mine to you and that way you and I can write a letter to bruce anderson and show the world that this is the correct value...
heck maybe I can sell you 2 of them for 40K...
brant
Posted by: Howard Dec 27 2004, 03:34 PM
| QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Dec 27 2004, 01:12 PM) |
| I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car. |
Amen, bro!
I'm in it for the grin factor.
Got a really nice 914 2.0 for $5800. Dumped in another 2 grand. Nobody grins louder than me, and that's the real value. IMHO I'll recoup the $$ investment in my kids and dogs before I break even on the 914.
Posted by: MarkG Dec 27 2004, 03:39 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:20 PM) |
| to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it........... |
Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over.
It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested.
Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch.
Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k.
Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on!
Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it.
That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you!
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 03:44 PM
I t is always so interesting how so many people will get the facts sooo wrong...kinda like how suzy and bobby made out, then by the time it got passed around suzy was pregnant and bobby was dead from her father.
Who said anything about the 914 eclipsing the 911???
I see 911's heavily modified all day long get the money asked by the owners---the 914 crowd does the same thing, they get what they ask...ever hear the term;" you get what you ask for?"...point here is ASKING PRICE.
yes, maybe the 911 guy is not getting all he has into it---but then again, I see it happen that he does, and some even make money.
Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.
Am I saying get out of it what we put into it?? NO, but somehow this thread has moved to that leftest wing party.
Great that you love your car and enjoy putting thousands into it with no possible hope of any worthwhile return, you obviously are stinking rich, good for you, I and thousands like me are not, you are just one in the crowd--of thousands who would like to see SOME return in the investment.
This will not happen until attitudes change--and yes, the market could explode on these cars---it has happened with many, many others, but again I am referring to "Affordable" with respect to the thousands we are investing into them--don't say it does not happen--you see it every time you pick up a copy of excellance. Why would anybody, even for the pure enjoyment, allow something like this to occur--this is the basis of capitalism and our society--only people with all the money in the world do not care what happens...or do they...how did they get so rich in the first place...wise investments,,,helping the market expand,,
Posted by: tracks914 Dec 27 2004, 03:45 PM
I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love.
I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even.
However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap.
Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 27 2004, 03:52 PM
I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast. 
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 03:54 PM
| QUOTE (MarkG @ Dec 27 2004, 01:39 PM) | ||
Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over. It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested. Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch. Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k. Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on! Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it. That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you! |
You raised a very good point--your former car is "rare", not many made right, I do not know, do not follow "F"--initial investment is 27k with a selling loss of 25k, meaning you almost put into it what you paid for it--( did it really need all those items?? did you do the work / inspection yourself?) or 52k total of a purchase price of 27k included.That is actually not bad--it IS a Ferrari................
No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here)
Which deal is better???? the 914 or the "F"???
This is actually a realistic example--just read many of the past threads on what people have put into these cars-----
Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 27 2004, 04:03 PM
i can sum it up in a sentence or two....
"Its a labor of love, and i love every minute of it"
yeah ive put a bunch of money into it....but can many of these new cars cath me in a corner? no way jose......
if you think these are in investment, walk away...... theyre for fun
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:07 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Dec 27 2004, 01:52 PM) |
| I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast. |
Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it??cheers--
Posted by: brant Dec 27 2004, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:54 PM) |
| No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here) |
Josh,
You would be better off buying a 7K 914 that only needs 1K worth of detail work on it... then you could sell it for a full recoup of your money...
lets face it.
I love all of you guys, but most the cars out there that have had rust "fixed" are not worth nearly the same to me as a car that never needed any rust fixed.
There are a few places that I would trust to truly do the repair as good as factory.. else wise, the repair adds little or no value to the car from an investment perspective..
what am I saying... I don't know, I guess that a 1K car with need of rust repair is not work 13K to me.
There will always be another car out there (even if the value becomes 13K) that does not need the work done...
these cars are not rare.
and there are still out there.
take any car you want..
take a 911 or take a fiero..
It has to be a very nice starting car to bring back the money that is put into it...
I'm not trying to knock down your car.
I'm not rich either.
I have rust repaired cars, its just that I realistically know mine will never bring the kind of money I put into it.
If you want to do better on return, then buy a -6. The -6 is rare and appreciate because of it.
brant
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (tracks914 @ Dec 27 2004, 01:45 PM) |
| I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love. I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even. However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap. |
This is also a very good observation--parts cars will always be "cheap",,ones that need extensive work ( but are driving) will still also be "Cheap",,it is the ones that are in decent to very good shape and only getting 900 bucks--or,,,2k tops-----that is what is distressing--take it from me--I am all about a good deal--but want it to be from some schmo that went to jail, or keeled over while having sex with an 18 yr old...don't make my car cheap just because you want it to be...see what I meanThe teener is a great sports car--even porsche has recognized this officially----
Market exposure is one key--and there is a fella on here that is doing just that ( I am sworn to secrecy--do not even ask)----
I want to hear from anybody who does NOT want to see the potential resale of their car go up!?!
Who is the first???
Posted by: Eddie Williams Dec 27 2004, 04:18 PM
The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000. ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go!
Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 27 2004, 04:25 PM
| QUOTE |
| Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. |
So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin
Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening....
CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments.
Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:29 PM
Here is another good one:
Say, somebody took up the endeavor to bring a bunch of teeners back to reality--in all different trims and what not---where you could actually "shop" for a teener ready to go. Kinda like all the type 1 outfits all around the country.
But you still like wrenching on them--maybe even build one yourself.
Would you buy one ready to go--as new as factory for a realistic price--yet keep wrenching on your very own..
Would you do it? Buy a fully rebuilt driver AND wrench on yours???
This could be a reality--and give the boxster some competition-
What do ya think???
Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 27 2004, 04:29 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:07 PM) | ||
Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it??cheers-- |
It has been a "done" car for a while now. I leave things to "tinker" on. Hey, I like to tinker. But there is even so little of that to do that I got another 914 to go through. Mine is a put key in and drive in any weather car. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It is like a normal car. Buuuut, I don't becuase even though it is just a VW in most peoples mind, they can't seem to leave it alone. So most of the time it is parked in a garage out of harms (dumb-asses) way.
Posted by: Cloudbuster Dec 27 2004, 04:31 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM) |
| : Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. |
Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value.
The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do."
I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars.
I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value.
A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed.
Having said that --
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (Eddie Williams @ Dec 27 2004, 02:18 PM) |
| The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000. ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go! |
So sorry to hear that--'bout the 944. I had a '86 one for awhile, till an errant rodent took out the entire front end at 4 in the mornin. THAT was one sweet handling car!!!! good luck on the teener!!!
oh by the way, here in south florida is don't make no matter what you drive--all those last minute to work ass-holes will take anybody out!!!
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:35 PM
| QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 27 2004, 02:25 PM) | ||
So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening.... CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so. |
mini is too small for my big ass---
plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces....
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:42 PM
| QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Dec 27 2004, 02:31 PM) | ||
Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value. The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do." I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars. I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value. A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed. Having said that -- |
Yeah---no really--do you really think a teener has to become as rare as a 908 to be worth anything????
Again it is not about investing into a car(teener) to make money on it---it is about investing in a car so you do not lose soooo damn much because most people who already have one really gives a shit about the resale values----
That is what I am seeing on this board all too often and it is distressing---almost 3k members is strong JEDI--this many people in the 914 community could be an adverse influence if not carefull
With THAT said--
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:46 PM
hey cloudbuster--you're one of those republicans ain't you....
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:35 PM) | ||||
mini is too small for my big ass--- plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces.... |
I used to own a 1979 corvette, bought it for 5k in 1992---they are sellin for over 14k now--go figure Should have kept that beastie--but hey--if I did, now I would not be a teener fanatic!!!
Posted by: Hi_Fi_Guy Dec 27 2004, 05:05 PM
1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time.
2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had.
3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any.
4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace.
The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners.
All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for.
We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit.
Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 05:10 PM
BUT, what I HOPE everyone realizes is the big time editor of "Excellance"is also a club member-- and he is listening to us..........
Hey, big time editor for excellance--please don't reduce the values of our cars from reading this thread--please, please, please,
You are awesome--so very awesome
How about a case of your favorite brew?????????
Posted by: Steve Thacker Dec 27 2004, 05:15 PM
The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to
"owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me".
We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is....
That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion".
I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with cash flow problems.
So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt .
nuff said......
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 05:21 PM
| QUOTE (Hi_Fi_Guy @ Dec 27 2004, 03:05 PM) |
| 1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time. 2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had. 3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any. 4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace. The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners. All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for. We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit. Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand. |
But guy, the demand is there!--oh is the demand there!--I see it all over the net...The problem is the people who do not care about the resale prices--which is keeping them low------this is a problem perpetrated all over--not just in here---
If people would just start opening their wallets--all the stuff we are paying out the ass for would drop in price--club people do mass purchases all the time to get a better price....
The other problem is the guy putting thousands into his car then accepting only a couple grand for it--that is systemic in our beloved cars resale values staying low---- which is why you never really see anything in-between--the car is either 2k or 20k--with far less 20k than 2k----
To think the market is not watching this trend is foolish--oh, THEY ARE WATCHING!
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 05:24 PM
| QUOTE (Steve Thacker @ Dec 27 2004, 03:15 PM) |
| The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to "owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me". We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is.... That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion". I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with cash flow problems. So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt . nuff said...... |
WE HAVE A REAL PREACHER OF PHILOSOPHY WITH US BOYS AND GIRLS!!!! AWESOME MY FRIEND, SIMPLY AWESOME!!!
This is what it is all about in the end game!!!!
Have a beer on me..
Posted by: Hi_Fi_Guy Dec 27 2004, 05:25 PM
I think you hit on something there Steve. Supply & Demand are always in effect but the "motivated" seller can have adverse effects as well. Since so few 914s are used as people's primary transportation and may be considered hobby cars or toys many owners may not actual be bothered for seeling at a lower price. Some of these owners may feel it doesn't effect them or as you state may be desperate for the cash and make a quick underpriced sale.
Posted by: carambola Dec 27 2004, 05:38 PM
talk, talk, talk.
you want the money, learn how to race it. win a national cup, and then attract the interest of the wine and cheese crowd. who knows, you may be the butt of a drunken joke.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 27 2004, 05:41 PM
| QUOTE (carambola @ Dec 27 2004, 03:38 PM) |
| talk, talk, talk. you want the money, learn how to race it. win a national cup, and then attract the interest of the wine and cheese crowd. who knows, you may be the butt of a drunken joke. |
And a very merry new year to you-------------
Posted by: anthony Dec 27 2004, 06:11 PM
You've posted so many different ideas here that it's hard to respond to just one. Here's some food for thought:
I bought a 911SC because it would have cost me over $30K to build a 914-6 with a 3L motor and 915 transmission and bring the paint and body work to the level of the 911. I could make the same case that 911SCs are undervalued. Is a heavier Carrera with 15 extra hp and a G50 tranny really worth double the price? Personally I don't think so but the market has decided otherwise.
Overall 914 prices are up on premium cars. I'm talking turn-key runners - nice original or even improved cars with straight bodies and nice paint. Beater 914s are still priced about where they were 3 years ago when I bought my 914. The price gap is widening based on condition.
Unfortunately, the price point of the 914 often attracts buyers who don't have the money to properly care for or restore their car. And since they only put a few thousand dollars into it, they don't care about it as much as a guy that put $15K into an old 911. I see lots of 914 abuse even on this board. The guys that post a pic of their 914 parked outside with 2 feet of snow on it should be embarrassed to post such a pic. It's not funny. It's sad to see a 914 rusting away outside in the winter when it should be in a garage or at minimum under a cover. My 914 gets wet 3 times a year for a wash and wax.
Here's my other pet peeve about classic car owners: "Over $XX,XXX invested!" To me the money you put into your car after you buy it is upgrade and maintenace costs. Research them before you buy a car. 914 owners should be budgeting $500-1000/year for ownership. That may mean a few years where you only spend $200 doing oil changes and tune-ups but then a year where you spend $3,000 to refresh the transmission or $5,000 to paint the car. It all evens out in the end. If you buy a $2,000 car, you'll have more big bills over the years. If you buy a $7,000 car you'll have less.
These cars are valued where they are because of supply and demand. You get a large spread between a beater and an outstanding car. I've seen:
914-4 free to $17K
914-6 $5K to $25K
Posted by: redshift Dec 27 2004, 06:22 PM
I have near $20k in my piece of shit, and it needs a complete restoration.. THANKS OTTO!
So, around $35k for a... as you say, $2k car!
NO FUGGIN THANK YOU!
These cars will never be worth half as much as the sum total of the parts you just add as you go.. a set of seals puts the typical 914 over the line.
If you want to collect something that makes money, I have guitars for sale... and I already made mine..
It's harder to drive this crap everyday, especially after spending all day Saturday in a 500SL.
M
Posted by: Part Pricer Dec 27 2004, 06:25 PM
I just got in after a drive (not in the 914) up to Boston and back. I’m tired and grumpy, but I do have to say that I’ve found this thread to be most amusing.
The only ways that a seller can demand a premium price for an item is to either have a specimen that truly demands a premium or the seller has a stranglehold on the supply.
So, if you want, demand more for your cars. I hope that you get it. The only thing that I see would be you pricing yourself above the market and then not really being part of the market.
Supply and Demand. It’s a law, not a suggestion.
Posted by: SLITS Dec 27 2004, 06:28 PM
I'm getting the impression that Mr. Walters should go talk to Mr. Hussey and buy a car from him....it'll be the price you want.
Posted by: curtis Dec 27 2004, 06:34 PM
| QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Dec 27 2004, 12:44 PM) |
| I think that for the normal individual, there is very little money to be made off any one car, period. You’ll NEVER get your time or money investment back on a car unless you got an absolutely great deal on the car being used as a base, and even then they’re usually more curse than blessing. I think the only money to be made on cars is as a dealer or professional restorer. Thanks to my former boss (who is now on a 356 bender – a coupe, a speedster, and restoring an SC and a Carrera 2) I’ve been privileged to hang around with big(ger) money Porsche types. One person said he only made money on ONE car in his twenty of years buying, selling and dealing with collectible cars -- 910s, 911s, Abarths, etc. You also need to think of who you’re competing with and who you are selling to. Unless your $12+5k improved SC is significantly better, and appeals to just the right person (who has to have it now), you’ve moved the car into the next price bracket. Your car is working at the high end of its price bracket, and now has to deal with other (better?) cars at the low end of the next price bracket. Example: You have a beautiful ’71 1.7 tailshifter for $4K with non-stock options, and somebody is selling a worn, but good condition ’73 2.0 sideshifter for $5k. I’d be going for the ‘73. You can complain about the wine-and-cheese-ers but they are the ones that have the scratch to throw $20k at a car that can sit in a garage and look pretty most of the time. They are also willing to put up with the foibles and quirks of a part-time driver car that is ‘correct’ rather than have the 'better' later-model that isn’t correct, no matter how much ‘nicer’ the seller thinks it is. I think that expecting 'good' resale any car that isn't restored to showroom stock is not wise. Personal preference varies dramatically, and the only 'real' standard that would conform to the widest audience is showroom stock. The wider the audience, the greater likelihood that somebody will pay top dollar for your car. There problem is that nobody values your time and choices like you do. A car is a set of compromises and the set you’ve chosen will most likely not match the set of compromises the next person is willing to accept. I don’t want a car that somebody else has worked on, because I get the impression that there is a bunch of ‘un-work’ to be done to reverse the compromises the previous owner found accept get the car to a desirable base. One thing I see a bad in rising values is there is less money for aftermarket parts. The cheaper the car, the more cash we as a community have to squander on Konis, roller suspension bushings and whatnot. Those things make 914s better. Inflated values do nothing to make the car better or improve the bottom lines of the entrepreneurs. |
1000% it is what it is. .....just a hobby regardless if it is a Ferrai or a Yugo you are still going to have to pay for parts and or labor or just plain maintenance. The only people making real money in anything automotive related are the share holders of Honda and Toyota and the dealers and salesman that sells them!!!! The restorer guys are usually a slave to overhead costs and what not(that is another story!)...so I GUESS THE ONLY WAY OTHER THAN THE ABOVE TO MAKE REAL MONEY WHEN IT COMES TO CARS IS TO SELL PARTS. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 27 2004, 06:39 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Dec 27 2004, 05:28 PM) |
| I'm getting the impression that Mr. Walters should go talk to Mr. Hussey and buy a car from him....it'll be the price you want. |
Posted by: brant Dec 27 2004, 06:45 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Dec 27 2004, 05:39 PM) | ||
|
Hey... I have one too..
I'm happy to charge to much and sell it..
In fact, I've owned it since I was 15 and have tons of memories or working on it... It will be super super super valuable due to sentimental reasons, even though it has scab plates fixing the rust!
brant
Posted by: 72914S Dec 27 2004, 06:56 PM
The only way to get your investment back is to drive the s*!t out of it ! For me it is the only reason I did it. It`s a fun car and a great hobby. I did not restore it with the thought of a monitary investment but to have a car that not everyone else had. I hope parts cars never go up in price. Can`t think of anything better than finding a free or nearly free car even if there is only a couple of parts I need!
Posted by: neo914-6 Dec 27 2004, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE |
| Here is another good one: Say, somebody took up the endeavor to bring a bunch of teeners back to reality--in all different trims and what not---where you could actually "shop" for a teener ready to go. Kinda like all the type 1 outfits all around the country. |
I've read about limited production endeavors for classic volvos and BMW 2002s. A great idea for "production line" rebuilding. It would allow a 911 or other car owner with disposable income to buy or order a quality, warrantied, rebuilt example of the 914 to drive or stash in the collection. The market variance in cost or value is the vast labor hours, levels or expertise, and unknown quality of parts. A remanufactured 914 "should" have quality, consistency, and less costly leveraged labor/knowledge, and parts quantity cost savings. Of course the saved costs may go to the manufacturers profit.
We are all on the right track by getting a 914 on the road visible to the public. In time maybe the youth will want to buy something less generic and the elders will exercise their nostalgic purchase. If good examples of 914's are available, market value will rise...
I am starting another project of increasing the presence and adoption of the 914. It will be the Neo914...
Felix
Posted by: jd74914 Dec 27 2004, 08:35 PM
Sorry to disagree, but you can make money on cars.
There are two ways:
1) Store them for 30 years (I bought my Ford F1 for $20 in 1976, and put about $100 into it to drive it. Now I see some in worse condition than mine selling for $1000's)
2) Buy them for cheap, and put the minimum $ required in them to get them to run, and then sell them right away (I've gotten lots of classics for free and sold for profit) All you have to do is make sure you park them where people can see them and dream. Instant and free advertising
Anyways, if you want to lose the least amount of money, sell it now and forget about it. Don't bother putting any money into it. I should be a labor of love
Posted by: jd74914 Dec 27 2004, 08:37 PM
Above was the father's point of view, now the sons:
| QUOTE |
| In time maybe the youth will want to buy something less generic and the elders will exercise their nostalgic purchase. If good examples of 914's are available, market value will rise... |
Thats one of the reasons I bought my 914 for. I'll have an extremely unique car that can outhandle all of my friends.
Posted by: Brando Dec 27 2004, 08:43 PM
I see the only ways we can erally increase the value of our cars... would be to sell more "$20k" examples. Time to start -ing up the rollers to make nice complete cars.
When I have the money, I would eventually like to find a nice roller, strip it down to chassis, stiffen it up, have the body phosphorous coated (equivalent of galvanizing) and re-painted. Then put a completely rebuilt 2.0L in there with everything refurbished as it could be. Almost brand new. And you know what? For the cost of all of this ($25k-ish?) it would be a bargain compared to buying a new boxster or 997. Now, for a couple thousand dollars more I can install a much larger 6 engine and run with the big boys... but still, that'd be a full and complete restoration. When done, the car would be worth a bit less than my investment. If I played my cards right, I might even be able to make a little profit.
But most of the weight does land on sellers. 914 sellers, don't be afraid to ask for more than $500 on a roller. Hell, 944 rollers (all years) are worth $500. 924 rollers are worth a dimebag (ask me how I know). Just because it's deprecieated by most as a volkswagen doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated like any other Vintage Porsche.
Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 27 2004, 08:51 PM
We're our own worse enemy. Every time someone posts a link to an ebay car we trash it so bad no one would by it.
Posted by: neo914-6 Dec 27 2004, 08:53 PM
| QUOTE |
| don't be afraid to ask for more than $500 on a roller |
How many rollers are sold because they started as parts cars? This is a cheaper and time saving alternative than buying parts one by one. How many were sold because the owner found a better car? How many were sold to make space? Rollers serve their purpose and will be cheaply and readily available in the dry salt-free states until supply is significantly reduced by attrition or resurrection.
Felix
Posted by: vortrex Dec 27 2004, 08:53 PM
914's are horribly overpriced right now and anyone who argues that either is trying to justify all the $ spent on theirs or is trying to sell one at a profit.
Posted by: carambola Dec 27 2004, 09:06 PM
for one day and one day only, i will take away that rusted till the center is touching the ground car that you have and help you clean out your garage.
low hourly wage expected.
Posted by: RAR Dec 27 2004, 09:07 PM
Most objects--antiques, furniture, cars, etc. go through a phase where their value is at best questionable. It isn't until "later" that they become worth more. The original Speedster was a budget Porsche when first introduced. Now what's a primo example worth? As others have said, the 914s aren't an investment, they're a hobby.
Posted by: Rhodes71/914 Dec 27 2004, 09:14 PM
I bought my 914 because:
I like working on cars and love VWs
My wife likes 914's better than split window VW buses
They are fun to drive
For less than $2000 I have a really fun car and it's Porsche
I think it's great that these fun little cars are reasonable to buy. Sure parts are expensive hey it is a Porsche that they haven't made for almost 30 years what do you expect.
If I wanted a real money making investment I would have talked to by stock broker.
I hope to still have this car when my 3 yo is 16 I'm sure my few thousand dollar "investment" will be worth something then.
But mostly it is a fun hobby that I enjoy spending time and money on. I hope they stay reasonable so I can get another cause really it's my wifes car and I'm just getting it ready for her.
Posted by: Howard Dec 27 2004, 10:27 PM
Pretty basic, but in this free economy (except for oil companies and a few others):
Buyers set the true value of things. If someone is willing to pay $20+ million per year for an athlete to endorse their product, that's the true value. We live in a nice neighborhood, but it's no Beverly Hills, and a 2200 sq ft tract house down the street just sold for $980,000. If someone is willing to pay $20k for a 914, then that's what it's really worth.
In each of these cases none of these things are really worth much until someone writes the check.
Posted by: jim912928 Dec 27 2004, 10:34 PM
Rick has a very good point. I can tell you that when someone talks about a 911 or a 928 purchase/sale on the rennlist forum (as an example)....those guys don't trash into the ground each and every car like we do scaring off potential buyers. Fair assesments are given then the onslaught of positives about the brand/model are highlighted. I think we take it to the edge at times.
The image to the "just getting into 914's" crowd can sure be skewed by what they read by us!
Now......the passion we talk about our cars at events like MWC and FFC and likewise what I read on the WCC...is so different...whether it is a pristine car or a work-in-progress. I think the intent of this thread was to boost our passion and pride for our cars...as we discuss and asses our "addictions" for this very cool marque..the 914!
Posted by: curtis Dec 27 2004, 10:57 PM
| QUOTE (vortrex @ Dec 27 2004, 06:53 PM) |
| 914's are horribly overpriced right now and anyone who argues that either is trying to justify all the $ spent on theirs or is trying to sell one at a profit. |
Posted by: trekkor Dec 28 2004, 12:01 AM
Here's my take.
If it's a good deal to you, buy it.
I found my car for $2200. I'll have $4-6K more into it when the SIX is done.
Could I sell it for $10K? Not important right now.
I will tell you this, someone offered me $6500 for my car in it's current FOUR form a few months back. I politely declined.
I'm looking at a $3k paint job.
Will it be worth $15K as the street/ a-x fun car to a buyer?
Don't care...I'm happy.
I agree about entry level cars however. My car was worth $4k easy when I bought it.
I wanted a driver with no *issues*. Was willing to pay $6.5k to get that.
The orange car shown to us here for $4k could be a screaming deal if it's genuine. If I wanted another one and had the cash I'd schtick in my 2.0 and be happy as the next guy.
When i was 16 I passed on a '71 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum for $1600.
Try to by one now...
I bought a Baja Bug instead...Air cooled is where it's at.
So, how much will this crowd pay for the PERFECT 914?
KT
Posted by: balthazar Dec 28 2004, 02:29 AM
Someone said we represent only 1% of the total demographic interested in actually buying a 914. Because of this, what we do here and on other boards has no effect on peoples opinions of our cars.(paraphrasing)
I disagree! We here, while only possibly 1%, represent ALL of the knowledge on these cars. People interested in buying a 914 are being FOOLISH, or uninformed, if they don't make a stop here and read the VAST amount of material available.
That being said, it is impossible for us to not affect peoples opinions of cars for sale on E-Bay and else where. Like it or not, people look to us for advice. If we say the car is worth only $900, they take us for our word.
It does not matter, however. Those who think a perfect, rust free roller is worth less than the cost to ship it east will fade away as cheap cars disappear. The downside is that they will be more expensive to get into.
Eventually, our cars will come on par with their german relatives. Most people have never heard of a 914. That is how we can best serve the value, by driving these things everywhere and showing them off to everyone. We need to have long road trips in the summer with 200+ cars. Post pix everywhere. Try and get into the papers, and TV. Basically promote the hell out of them!!!!
Just my .02 "clink,clink"
Posted by: bjorn jacobson Dec 28 2004, 03:05 AM
I think there are some valid points to this argument, I also think someone may have had one beer too many.
One thing to concider at this time is the fact that the Porsche community seems to be keeping an eye on the 914 as the owners banter about values. Both Excellence and 911& Porsche World both have articles out about 914s. The article about the Max Moritz car in particular should win much attention for the 914 communiy. Wether this is preferable or not is up to you. But I do think we are about to see a dramatic change in the value of these cars.
I personally would rather things stayed were they are. I don't intend to sell my car after it's completed, I don't look at it as an investment. I honestly think I'm getting a great deal for the dollar no matter how much money I spend for parts on my car. Sure it would be great to buy these things for a couple of grand and sell them for twenty all day long but it seems a bit unrealistic. I wouldn't want to spend the kind of money a preimpact 911 is going for on a 914.
There are also the people who are huge fans of the Porsche tradition that are not the "wine and cheese" type, since I'm from Wisconsin I like to think of myself as the "beer and cheese" type. But the point I'm trying to make is that there seems to be a lot of people on this board who are really in it for a genuine reason, becaluse they have a passion for these cars. And that is what I think makes Porsche what it is. The little guy who gets a huge thrill out of taking his Porsche out club racin on the weekend, not some big buck schmuck who wants to compensate his dink size with a fast car everyday.
Sorry jwalters but you may want to have a couple cheese curds with your beers, you may be able to handle them a little better.
P.S. What do you think insurance companys will do when these cars are worth big bucks?
Posted by: scruz914 Dec 28 2004, 04:19 AM
| QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Dec 27 2004, 07:51 PM) |
| We're our own worse enemy. Every time someone posts a link to an ebay car we trash it so bad no one would by it. |
From what I have seen the EBay cars still sell for high prices even after being trashed on this forum. Maybe no one on the forum would buy, but someone out there is.
Posted by: Steve Thacker Dec 28 2004, 07:20 AM
| QUOTE (72914S @ Dec 27 2004, 08:56 PM) |
| The only way to get your investment back is to drive the s*!t out of it ! For me it is the only reason I did it. It`s a fun car and a great hobby. I did not restore it with the thought of a monitary investment but to have a car that not everyone else had. I hope parts cars never go up in price. Can`t think of anything better than finding a free or nearly free car even if there is only a couple of parts I need! |
This is the bottom line and no words have summed it up as nice.
The parts car search is the fun part. Finding one to help defer the costs is the icing on the cake. Sort of like finding a nice shiny quarter in the road when we were kids. Of course penny candy was the order of the day back then.
Now it is these little buggers that are taking our candy money. Have fun owning and driving your cars as I do. When people see how much fun you are having driving it, then they also maybe will want one also. Then the attraction comes into play and price can be no object to a potential newbie as myself. Car pricing in conjunction with voodoo supply and demand is just that. Think about some of you who grabbed the bit between your teeth in your early days of buying these cars. Did you really care how much you paid for it? Be honest here folks.... You just wanted it right? And nothing was going to stop you from getting it. From a short four and a half years ago I joined your ranks as a virgin to 914s. As a boot I saw the car and my sensibility went right out the window along with my hard earned cash. I remember seeing posts on the Bird site of owners bashing the dependibility of these cars in so many ways, I wondered if I made a good choice. That isn't something a newbie needs to read fellas.
I thought (at the the time) I could dump this aircooled Edsel and go look at that 55' caddy that needed a priest, a shaman and a banker to resurrect its soul. What do I do ?... I decided that I'm sticking to my guns and finish what I started. So in the future remember that there are people that will throw in the towel before getting started, so think and speak positive of your autos. It will attract aircooled boots like myself to buy and thus bring up the selling prices of your cars. That is the secret and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 28 2004, 08:14 AM
Well, I can honestly say this was one sure fire refreshing discussion of our beloved cars.!!!
I want to extend my hand of friendship with all those of you that strived to keep this topic civil and clean and actually read the topics before spouting off with diatribe.
From what I have read it is obvious that the vast majority of us has seen and come to terms how easily we as a group can be our own worst enemy--not to just ourselves, but those others with teeners which are also affected.
It is sooo easy in this world to not give a crap about a particular subject and also not give a crap of the ramifications of said subject which is inflicted upon other fellow human beings. "If it does not affect me......."
This is sooo very good -----everybody--keep mindful of how our actions could / might / will adversly affect others---you never know when you might roll up to that street corner and there is the one you wronged indiscriminately, and he knows it----where would you go from there???
Rock on teeners--hope to meet the vast majority of you in the years to come at the gatherings which willl bring us the spotlight!
Cheers-
Posted by: KaptKaos Dec 28 2004, 11:54 AM
Why I like my 73 1.7
1) I always liked the simplicity of aircooled Porsches. Just seemed "right" to me that a car would be built like that.
2) I always liked the relatively light weight and good handling. A hallmark of earlier Porsches, at the time labeled "Giant Killers" because of their ability to beat cars with much more displacement in races.
3) I do not want or need: power windows, power door locks, power sunroof, air conditioning, GPS, automatic climate control, heated seats, heated mirrors, foglamp washers, power seats with multi-person memory, or any of those other modern conveniences. I prefer my car to be a raw experience.
4) Nothing else looks like it. That's not to say that its pretty, cause its really not, but it is unique. I call it interesting to be polite. When you drive to work, keep an eye out for interesting cars. There are fewer and fewer each day.
5) I really like that my car has no center console, makes it feel very roomy and comfortable inside.
6) Targa top. I hate replacing convertible tops, takes me 4 or 5 times to get them to fit right, and they still really don't. No such issue with the targa and you still get the open motoring experience.
Basically, I fell in love with the speedsters of the 50s. Now I am not that old, but there was something so pure and honest about them, that I really appreciated them. In looking for a classic car with similar attributes, you are very limited in choices. If you like aircooled motors and their unique sounds, open tops, with a decent level of performance, what can you get? Well, you could get a Karmann Ghia, which is a very pretty car, more expensive than a 914 in most cases and has a lower level of performance (stock). Or, you could get a 914 with all of the good stuff a Ghia doesn't have (tach, disc brakes, 5 spd tranny, fuel injection, mid engined, targa top) for less but its not as pretty as a Ghia.
I guess the real bottom line is this: The 914 was not well received in its day. I have most of the articles from R&T and C&D from the time. The Fiat 124 was, by far, more appreciated by those magazines. The fact that 914s are still popular and sought after today is a testament to the marque (ok, 1/2 a marque for you narp folks), and that the cars were really very well engineered and manufactured and that people were able to see past the "short comings" that the car rags of the day sighted and fell in love with them anyway (like me).
Regarless of what we do or say, 914s are becoming rarer, and by that fact alone, more valuable. I do not think that there is much that we can do, other than to love these little cars. Their value will go up, I see no sense in trying to expedite that. Its not something I want to sell, so why should I care?
Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 28 2004, 12:03 PM
Anybody go to the 50th Porsche B-Day and LS? I didn't (couldn't), but a buddy of mine taped one of the races for me. Out came the Brumos 914-6 (L20E baby ) and you know who was driving it? Hurley Haywood (spelling?)! 
That guy can drive a 914-6! Out on the track was Shelby cobra's being driven by his family (Shelby brought out his big guns), other Porsches, vintage muscle race cars ect. Hurley started back in something like the 15-16th spot and you know what? Lap after lap saw the little 914-6 GT pass people on corner after corner, out braking others, slipping inside to make the pass etc. When all was said and done, if I remember correctly, Hurley passed his last couple of cars (911's I think) to take the checkered flag. All out of a 2.0 914-6GT
THAT, my friends is a big reason I drive a 914-6.
Posted by: jwalters Dec 28 2004, 12:12 PM
O/T
Hey Root--is your 2.0 a stocker?? Or do you have some secret squirrel stuff going on there??
You possibly got any leads on a 3.0 sc six???? I go to all the recycler websites claiming they have em and then they don't, just askin as seeing your out west where most of the good stuff is..........
Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 28 2004, 12:23 PM
I will be helping someone do a 3.0 conversion in 2005, but mine is a 2.2T in a 73' tub. Nothing specail, no mods worth mentioning. Good, solid 914 though. We take it on lots of trips.
I have been keeping my eye's peeled for a decent 3.0 or 2.7 myself. Haven't run accross anything over here really. When or if something falls into my lap, I will jump on it and upgrade my 914. Otherwise it will stay a 2.2 which is fine with me. It is a done car and really just gets driven, washed and looked at.
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