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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Anyone use a 'Grape Hone" Before?
Posted by: Kerrys914 Jan 5 2005, 08:01 PM
I have my heads off and I am looking at some easy to remove P&C's. I am thinking of getting new rings ($80) and using a "grape hone" in the cylinders.
Does that sould like a good plan ? or am I just wacko 
Posted by: SpecialK Jan 5 2005, 08:32 PM
Can't hurt.
I tried a grape hone on a set of cylinders that had some surface rust from sitting and got good results. It's much easier with two people, one to run the hone, and one to keep the grapes lubed. Keep the hone moving back and forth (in other words, don't just stick the hone in the cylinder and pull the trigger), and as it's pulled out the top have your assistant squirt some lubricant (we used Marvel Mystery Oil). Very messy job so dress appropriately.
Kevin
Posted by: muddboy Jan 5 2005, 08:45 PM
I use them all the time at work. The "grape" hone (trade name FlexHone) is a great way to condition the surface inside the cyl. You can use alot of diff. lubes for diff. effects. The lighter the oil the more it "bites" into the metal, A common way for us to do it... is use WD-40 on the first dozen or so strokes. This cleans out the metal and bites into the surface to "deglaze" the surface. Then wipe that out and use ATF on the next pass, this gives you a "plateu" finish. A surface with valleys to hold oil during break in, and smooth area (the peaks were taken off) to keep friction and wear down to a minimum. After all that... wash, clean, dry, wash, clean......... I like dawn dish soap and hot water.
And just to say it... this is only my personal/perfesional OPINION
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jan 5 2005, 08:45 PM
I wouldn't, nor would any of the engine builders I know. No control over the cut, which can result in wavy cylinders, leading to disaster. The Cap'n
Posted by: jwalters Jan 5 2005, 09:15 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Jan 5 2005, 06:45 PM) |
| I wouldn't, nor would any of the engine builders I know. No control over the cut, which can result in wavy cylinders, leading to disaster. The Cap'n |
Wavy cylinders????The grape hone is a very good hone to use--much better than the other type ( the one with the bars)
The piont you need to make is getting the proper sized one for your cylinders--they come in a myriad of sizes.
The best one on the market (pricey) is the " Soft hone", this is high quality and proven with the water cooled bunch--but to do just one engine it is really cost prohibitive.
Hones do just what they inply--they remove metal, albeit a small quantity--as long as you watch yourself in the process. .
ATF is all I ever use-the consistency of it is excellent for excellent results.
Use a drill with a max of 1200 rpm--move the hone from the cyl bottom to top in a quick manner. This gives a cross-hatch that is good for ring bed-in. This is also the only reason to hone anyway.
It is difficult to count strokes--so use time instead---two passes on good cylinders is all it takes, with aboout 2-4 SECONDS per pass.With a VERY good cleaning inbetween passes--I too use dawn dish detergent--very good stuff!
What makes these better for all-around honing is there is no pre-load adjustment as with the other hone. That is what will really screw things up for a newbie--the proper spring pre-load. Getting the proper size grape ( or ..bead hone) takes all the guess work out of it for someone who does not do it on a routine basis.
But beware--a good hone job will be moot if you do not break in the rings properly!!!! That procedure is recommended by the ring manufacturer, and should be with any paperwork that came with the rings. If not- contact the manufacturer--they made them , they will know!
Good luck!
Posted by: xsboost90 Jan 6 2005, 07:02 AM
just make sure you move it back and fourth to get that cross hatch look instead of the ring around the cylinder look. Also, carefull when using it and part of it sticks out from inside the cylinder- they sometimes like to launch grapes at you. 
Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 6 2005, 07:59 AM
Depending on the cylinder wear , There wil be a step at the top of the cylinder that a grape hone wont remove. That is were they wave will start. More of a glaze breaking op than a honing op. It will work. Crosshatch good for ring seating.
| QUOTE |
| The best one on the market (pricey) is the " Soft hone", this is high quality and proven with the water cooled bunch--but to do just one engine it is really cost prohibitive. |
No shops close by to do this ?
The Condition of the Parts is biggest factor for the end result.
jeff
Posted by: dwillouby Jan 6 2005, 08:50 AM
We would use them all the time on our two stroke dragbike motors. I would use a Sunnen hone to get the proper clearances and then run the ball hone through it. They do a great job of smoothing and deburing port work. Also great for deglazeing Nikicel chrome liners.
David
Posted by: Kerrys914 Jan 6 2005, 08:54 AM
Thanks guys.
I am not sure if I am going to pull the P&C's yet? I need to keep costs down and "the engine ran well when it was pulled" 
I am slowly falling into the 'While I am there" syndrome 
and need to STOP at some point.
I am having the heads done by a shop and would liek to DIY the P&C's my self to save costs. The cost of rings seem low enough to make me want to pull the Cylinders off and rering the pistons and flex hone the cylinders.
How about looking at it this way
Will I be better off flex honing and reringing then not doing to uthe P&C's? Craftsmanship aside, I can't make it worse then it is now can I? New rings can't be bad for an engine
Cheers
Posted by: TC/914 Jan 6 2005, 09:20 AM
"They do a great job of smoothing and deburing port work. "
Terrific idea! Never thought of using them for that, but they're PERFECT for taking care or irregular surfaces.
Great Tip! I'm gonna try it tonight . . .
TC
Posted by: airsix Jan 6 2005, 01:31 PM
| QUOTE (sixnotfour @ Jan 6 2005, 05:59 AM) |
| Depending on the cylinder wear , There wil be a step at the top of the cylinder that a grape hone wont remove. |
Well, don't you want to use a ridge-reamer to remove the step before honing regardless of what hone type you use?
-Ben M.
Posted by: SLITS Jan 6 2005, 01:39 PM
Used the "dingle ball" hone for years on our racing engines on a re-ring. Technique is what it is all about to get the crosshatch for nodular iron rings.
Posted by: bondo Jan 6 2005, 02:17 PM
| QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Jan 6 2005, 07:54 AM) |
| I am having the heads done by a shop and would liek to DIY the P&C's my self to save costs. The cost of rings seem low enough to make me want to pull the Cylinders off and rering the pistons and flex hone the cylinders. How about looking at it this way Will I be better off flex honing and reringing then not doing to uthe P&C's? Craftsmanship aside, I can't make it worse then it is now can I? New rings can't be bad for an engine Cheers |
You probably know this already, but just in case.. don't forget to adjust the ring gaps of the new rings! Since you will be installing them on worn cylinders, you'll have to find the least worn spot of each cylinder (that the rings will travel on) and adjust the ring gap there.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 6 2005, 02:33 PM
| QUOTE (airsix @ Jan 6 2005, 03:31 PM) | ||
Well, don't you want to use a ridge-reamer to remove the step before honing regardless of what hone type you use? -Ben M. |
Most T4 cylinders are marginial at best...just using a ridge reamer you end up with a cone shaped cylinder.
A Sunnen is the only way to fly...even then at least 80% of the cylinders I do are NFG.
Posted by: jwalters Jan 6 2005, 04:23 PM
Are you sure the ridge is not just a carbon ridge--and not actually worn cylinders??
Check this out--many a newbie has been surprised by this fact.
If you already have the heads off--it would actually be kinda dunce-like not to go ahead and hone and re-ring-
That is worth it--while your up there anyway.
Posted by: muddboy Jan 6 2005, 08:18 PM
yes use a wire wheel or something semi soft in a diegrinder or drill... and clean the top of the cyl. There is usually a ring of carbon built up where the rings stop traveling up the side of the cylinder.
And something I have always gone by... is that if you have to use a ridgeremer the cylinder isnt any good (bore out or replace).
I used a sunnen ck-10 for years... my shop just got a rottler with diamond abrasives... wow... now I'm itching to do a motor again.
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