Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Bursch Vs. Monza / Header Systems
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 24 2014, 04:27 PM
Hi Guys,
I recently acquired a Bursch over Ebay and have an almost new Monza as well.
The car is a 2.0 with OBX headers.
There are three factors (that I know of) for my consideration:
Looks: Monza wins
Sound: Which one will sound cooler? Please post your opinions!
Performance: Which will offer (slightly) better HP, if either at all? Opinions!
Thanks!
Mike in Munich
Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Feb 24 2014, 05:29 PM
Bursch wins on sound and performance. Monza sounds like a blown out vw muffler.
Posted by: r_towle Feb 24 2014, 05:30 PM
Search on grassroots Motorsport magazine.....they did an article many years ago on this question....
It was part of a series they did on building a 914.
Rich
Posted by: maf914 Feb 24 2014, 05:48 PM
Do a search on this site for Monza. This has been discussed several times. I have had both and prefer the Bursch "Quiet" muffler.
Posted by: '73-914kid Feb 24 2014, 05:50 PM
How did you get an OBX header to fit on your engine? They're not even close to lining up with the exhaust ports. Also, if you have a header, the Bursch, Monza, or stock mufflers will not fit as they are designed to fit only with the factory heat exchangers.
You need to do more research.
Posted by: KENNY Feb 24 2014, 06:02 PM
Bursch wins on sound and performance. Monza sounds like a blown out vw muffler.
Posted by: bdstone914 Feb 24 2014, 06:08 PM
Monza are restrictive and heavy. Almost 40 pounds. They only look good. They also have clearance problems with hanging lower and further back. most get smashed on the tips when transitioning from a flat area to an incline.
Bruce
Posted by: thelogo Feb 24 2014, 09:03 PM
Hi Guys,
I recently acquired a Bursch over Ebay and have an almost new Monza as well.
The car is a 2.0 with OBX headers.
There are three factors (that I know of) for my consideration:
Looks: Monza wins
Sound: Which one will sound cooler? Please post your opinions!
Performance: Which will offer (slightly) better HP, if either at all? Opinions!
Thanks!
Mike in Munich
Not to hijack this thread , but can any one here
Speak knowledgeable y about Prsches.tuning the sound of the car by using a specific.
Muffler arrangement .. like can I go get some random cherry bomb an weld it in there and
It will sound like a rice / pasta rocket???
Is it possible to quote tune the sound ??? Even with a 1.7-.8 ./ 2.0
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 24 2014, 09:57 PM
Monza wins on looks? WRONG! They even LOOK heavy. What you want is a Triad. Monzas have ALWAYS been junk. By always, I mean since they first appeared on the market back in the '70s.
The Cap'n
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 24 2014, 10:49 PM
This has me worried ...
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 25 2014, 12:41 AM
You guys are awesome. Owning a 914 is definitely A LOT more enjoyable thanks to this forum! Just wanna get that in here first. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
@ '73 914 Kid... 
Not sure about that. Will have to get back to you. We may have, uh, 
made a mistake. Not sure if they are on the car yet or not. I am in Munich, the car is in Sun Valley, CA.
@ Sir Andy, thanks for your concern. I'll let y'all know what's up, but I already now know the Monza will be coming over here in the trunk. One sold on EBay here recently for 500...possibly €...don't remember exactly but it was at least $500.
As for the headers purchase / application, I should know and post later today. I know the guy working on PR II in SoCal knows his stuff and I wouldn't bet that he's made a mistake on the headers '73 914 Kid but thanks for the heads up. Will research and confirm. 
M.i.M.
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Feb 25 2014, 01:01 AM
How did you get an OBX header to fit on your engine? They're not even close to lining up with the exhaust ports. Also, if you have a header, the Bursch, Monza, or stock mufflers will not fit as they are designed to fit only with the factory heat exchangers.
You need to do more research.
+ 1 on that note !
factor #4, the obx 4 into 1 (counterfeit copy) exhaust header does in fact terminate into a single 3 bolt , 2.5" flanged collector, totally not compatible with any brand muffler that interconnects to the Type 4 HB's.
Mike, congrats on getting that obx on your engine, you are one of the rare few !
If you plan to keep that header on the 2.0, mate it to a decent 2.5" i.d. high flow muffler.
Marty
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 25 2014, 01:08 AM
Thanks for that input Marty. I will let you, too, know what's up. If Ed in Sun Valley did indeed "get" something on where others may have failed, only he deserves the credit. I'm damm curious now myself, but Ed's sleeping right now...
Posted by: somd914 Feb 25 2014, 04:57 AM
Monza for $500, is that how I read that? If so, they can be had new for less than $400 stateside.
Given the choice, I too would go Triad for performance and sound reasons, followed by Bursch. To me the Italian quad tips look at home on something like a Ferrari 308 but not a 914, and to me the sound is bland.
However, no matter, you really won't notice much in the way of performance gains/losses either way. There will likely be those who say otherwise, but even if you gain a few ponies, you won't notice it in my opinion. But the sound coming from the exhaust can certainly add pleasure to the experience and can even lull you into a sense of increased performance.
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 25 2014, 05:15 AM
Monza for $500, is that how I read that? If so, they can be had new for less than $400 stateside.
Given the choice, I too would go Triad for performance and sound reasons, followed by Bursch. To me the Italian quad tips look at home on something like a Ferrari 308 but not a 914, and to me the sound is bland.
However, no matter, you really won't notice much in the way of performance gains/losses either way. There will likely be those who say otherwise, but even if you gain a few ponies, you won't notice it in my opinion. But the sound coming from the exhaust can certainly add pleasure to the experience and can even lull you into a sense of increased performance.
I got the Monza, as well as another, over the forum or 914Club or The Samba, both for $150. One is almost new. They sell for a lot more over here so stuff like that in the trunk helps cover the shipping cost.
This is NOS, but still, listed at over $700... http://www.ebay.de/itm/DIE-LETZTE-VW-Porsche-914-Orig-Ansa-Auspuff-NOS-Neu-Schalldaempfer-Super-Sound-/390781653516
Thanks for your feedback. I will update...
Posted by: ben*james Feb 25 2014, 09:40 AM
Triad is the way to go. My 2.0 had a monza when I bought it. Later replaced with a triad and much for what I considered a huge upgrade.
Oh....btw, you need to post some pictures 
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 25 2014, 09:48 AM
Triad is the way to go. My 2.0 had a monza when I bought it. Later replaced with a triad and much for what I considered a huge upgrade.
Oh....btw, you need to post some pictures
I will post some photos very soon.
Maybe I should go for this!
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=231076
Posted by: bandjoey Feb 25 2014, 02:48 PM
For a stock car don't forget the neglected stock muffler.
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 25 2014, 04:01 PM
For a stock car don't forget the neglected stock muffler.
@ risk of perhaps sounding dumb, uh...
I don't get your comment.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 25 2014, 04:20 PM
He is saying that a stock "sausage" muffler is a pretty good option. Especially if your car is somewhat close to stock. And a lot of people don't even seem to consider it.
--DD
Posted by: boxsterfan Feb 25 2014, 04:23 PM
I have the Triad. It is awesome because it sets off overly sensitive car alarms in parking lots on occasion. Regardless, the dual pipes out the back are much more subtle than the Monza and much cleaner look IMHO. My motor is stock 2.0L D-Jet.
Posted by: LotusJoe Feb 25 2014, 04:36 PM
Triad
Posted by: Scarlet75 Feb 25 2014, 04:48 PM
Triad is the way to go. My 2.0 had a monza when I bought it. Later replaced with a triad and much for what I considered a huge upgrade.
Oh....btw, you need to post some pictures
I will post some photos very soon.
Maybe I should go for this!
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=231076
Notice he is Upgrading to a tangerine header and an EVO II.
Posted by: Alphaogre Feb 25 2014, 05:34 PM
I like the sound and look of the Triad... I like when he 1.7 - 2.0's have the more hollow sound of the 6 motor...
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 26 2014, 01:45 AM
Thanks for the clarification Dave.
The suggestion regarding stock is, indeed, quite the novel idea.
Sadly, this project is a combination of not quite worth it / not in the budget for a $2,000+ (optimal?) Tangerine solution, unless I could get one of their lovely systems for less... 
Would like to be posting those photos this morning but uncharactaristically didn't get a reply from Sun Valley yesterday.
M.i.M.
Posted by: mepstein Feb 26 2014, 07:08 AM
Stock he's and stock muffler sound boring but work really well. I once had carbs and a monza and didn't like driving over 2 hours because of the noise.
I took the bursch muffler off my 1.7 and replaced it with stock and I'm very happy with the result.
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 28 2014, 02:16 PM
How did you get an OBX header to fit on your engine? They're not even close to lining up with the exhaust ports. Also, if you have a header, the Bursch, Monza, or stock mufflers will not fit as they are designed to fit only with the factory heat exchangers.
You need to do more research.
I thought this was going to be the case...the answer to your question, I reckon, is that it is not a 2.0 case. It's a 1.8 bored to 2.0. The headers are not on the car yet. Ed in Sun Valley is expecting it to not be a problem at all. Naturally I hope he is right. I will update and inform. If a mod is necessary he will most likely solve the problem and I will post photos.
M.i.M.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Feb 28 2014, 02:23 PM
I use the Bursch myself, never noticed a performance difference over the stock Dansk muffler (a.k.a. the banana), but it does sound better to me & is definitely much lighter than stock.
Posted by: '73-914kid Feb 28 2014, 02:54 PM
How did you get an OBX header to fit on your engine? They're not even close to lining up with the exhaust ports. Also, if you have a header, the Bursch, Monza, or stock mufflers will not fit as they are designed to fit only with the factory heat exchangers.
You need to do more research.
I thought this was going to be the case...the answer to your question, I reckon, is that it is not a 2.0 case. It's a 1.8 bored to 2.0. The headers are not on the car yet. Ed in Sun Valley is expecting it to not be a problem at all. Naturally I hope he is right. I will update and inform. If a mod is necessary he will most likely solve the problem and I will post photos.
M.i.M.
1.8, 1.7, 2.0L, it won't matter. The OBX header was copied off of a header that was not intended to ever fit a T4 engine. It's a cheap chinese copy, and the only way to make it fit is to cut the header up and weld on custom stub pipes that a few Type 4 parts sellers have available. I only know of one person who succesfuly got the header onto their car, and that was after they welded on flanges for stub pipes and stub pipes were installed.
It's going to take cutting and welding, no doubt about that.
Read this:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=114377&hl=obx%20header
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 28 2014, 03:10 PM
Posted by: MikeInMunich Feb 28 2014, 03:56 PM
I haven't spoken with Ed about it, but I reckon he would simply agree and say something like, "yeah. So?" That's not anything that would intimidate him much at all. It's not only right up his alley, but I think he actually enjoys such "challenges". I am, indeed, quite curious myself, as I am sure you guys are too, and I do hope we will be in the minority having experienced success with this endeavor. 
Looking forward to updating y'all when he is done. 
Love these emoticons.
M.i.M.
Update:
From email with Ed....
"I installed a set of headers a couple years ago that used the stub pipes. We'll see if the current headers will fit in the ports well enough to work. It looks like they will. I anticipated a bit of fitting to install them. bitchbitchbitch, Not for the faint of heart."
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 1 2014, 08:21 AM
The will work so long as he cuts off at least 3 of the 4 ports and welds in new pipe to fit.
Zach
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 1 2014, 03:09 PM
Update:
From Ed: "Apparently the manufacturer did not use a jig when they welded these things up. At a minimum, jig hold points are required on each end of the batch of tubes. So they missed it on #4 cylinder by maybe 10 degrees. I will cut the tube at the weld near the head and clock it around to line it up. Not too difficult really. Will check if the shift rod still works through it all. I have two engines, so I can fit before the final install on your engine. I would say they charged too much for this set, especially when I see the price for the subaru ej20-25 headers are as low as $120 shipped.
If I do this again, I may buy the sube set and mod it to fit the 914."
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 1 2014, 03:31 PM
...and another photo...
Should work out well. What I think we have learned is that OBX supplies MATERIAL 
for the job, but not a plug and play product. 
So, as Mr. Brady put it and added to our vocabulary when we were kids (some of y'all not having been born yet of course, so if you don't get the reference, go to YT and search for it with "Brady" in case yer interested) caveat emptor; if yer not gonna be able or willing to mod the "material", I would recommend going with the (more expensive) Triad.
Mike in Munich
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 1 2014, 06:53 PM
Kerry Hunter has a header system that looks to me to be better than the OBX (I know, not saying much there), for a pretty decent price.
http://www.kerryhunterenterprise.com/914-4.htm
M.i.M.
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 5 2014, 06:57 PM
Done:
All credit goes to Ed, naturally.
Y'all were right, but he mastered the challenge.
M.i.M. 
Posted by: '73-914kid Mar 5 2014, 07:13 PM
Wow, that actually came out pretty well..
Mind asking Mike how many hours it took him to weld that up? For the price of the header itself, it may be worth the time simply cut and weld it. I think I only see 3 or 4 places where he had to cut and rotate..
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Mar 5 2014, 09:19 PM
Hey Mike if you expect those welds to pass the T.U.V. you might need to give the inspector some extra € on the side
Marty
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 6 2014, 04:09 AM
Hey Mike if you expect those welds to pass the T.U.V. you might need to give the inspector some extra € on the side
Marty
Hi Marty,
that thought never occurred to me whatsoever. I personally doubt that it will be an issue and cannot imagine why it should be. Apparently you think the quality of the welds is questionable.
Do you have experience with TUV? On something like this?
No matter what, I will have an independent inspector that is recommended to me inspecting the car, not TUV necessarily. TUV (itself) is not the only option (any more).
I am not concerned about it.
M.i.M.
Posted by: edwin Mar 6 2014, 04:26 AM
Not to steal this thread but do you actually sell your headers Marty or just leave that up to AA? I'd love more options for headers but so far tangerine are the only option that will ship to Aus. Just too pricey for my taste
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Mar 6 2014, 10:04 AM
Not to steal this thread but do you actually sell your headers Marty or just leave that up to AA? I'd love more options for headers but so far tangerine are the only option that will ship to Aus. Just too pricey for my taste
Edwin, check your pm later today...we can take it over there !
Mike, no worries...although Ed has made what appears to be an excellent "Pit stop repair", it is just too much of a departure from "Resonable +customary" acceptable welding standards that we are accustomed to here in our MSDS werkstatt !
Make sure that Ed gets that collector-locator-tab to align with the lock bolt.
OBX won't get a second chance to fix their defect issue, as we recently prevailed on a cease + desist lawsuit with OBX on 8 of our MSDS exhaust products.
Marty
Posted by: MikeInMunich Mar 7 2014, 03:37 AM
Wow, that actually came out pretty well..
Mind asking Mike how many hours it took him to weld that up? For the price of the header itself, it may be worth the time simply cut and weld it. I think I only see 3 or 4 places where he had to cut and rotate..
About 3 hours. OBXes are a copy product. I did not know this. They recently received a cease and desist order. I may be the last to ever mount their crap copy product onto a 914.
Posted by: patrick3000 Mar 7 2014, 05:05 PM
Thanks for the clarification Dave.
The suggestion regarding stock is, indeed, quite the novel idea.
Sadly, this project is a combination of not quite worth it / not in the budget for a $2,000+ (optimal?) Tangerine solution, unless I could get one of their lovely systems for less...
Would like to be posting those photos this morning but uncharactaristically didn't get a reply from Sun Valley yesterday.
M.i.M.
How did you get an OBX header to fit on your engine? They're not even close to lining up with the exhaust ports. Also, if you have a header, the Bursch, Monza, or stock mufflers will not fit as they are designed to fit only with the factory heat exchangers.
You need to do more research.
I thought this was going to be the case...the answer to your question, I reckon, is that it is not a 2.0 case. It's a 1.8 bored to 2.0. The headers are not on the car yet. Ed in Sun Valley is expecting it to not be a problem at all. Naturally I hope he is right. I will update and inform. If a mod is necessary he will most likely solve the problem and I will post photos.
M.i.M.
I am curious other than the $$$ Tangerine, what is the optimum header muffler combination for the above engine, carb 2.0 from a 1.8. Let's assume the cams have been changed to optimize the carbs and the primary use would be autocross / track duty.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)