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Posted by: Highland Apr 17 2014, 09:39 AM

I'm getting close (a relative term) to starting my motor for the first time. It is a stock 2.0 with Raby 9590 valve train. I know the easiest thing to do is put it in the car and start, but I have a running engine in the car now and I suspect I'll have to fix something after a try to start it. Here are my questions:

1) I have a spare transmission with starter. Can I start the engine without a clutch on the flywheel?

2) Can I start the engine without the alternator installed?

3) Without a charging system, can I use a car battery to power the coil and D-Jet for the break-in period (assuming I get that far) or will the battery die before then?

4) If I can't use a car battery to power the ignition and D-Jet, how big a power supply will I need?

Posted by: 914itis Apr 17 2014, 09:57 AM

It is a bit complicated to bench start a djet. You will need the relay board, ecu and grounds. You may have to fabricate a harness.
You don't need the alternator.

Posted by: Dtjaden Apr 17 2014, 10:10 AM

I just did this with my engine rebuild. I wanted to do the cam break-in and leak check before I put the engine in the car. I used a HF moving dolly and some 2x4s as my test stand. I made up a control panel with a master switch, fuel pump switch, ignition switch and starter switch and finally an oil pressure gauge. This allowed me to crank the engine to build oil pressure before starting. It only took a couple of hours to put the panel together and wire it up to the engine.

I used the car's battery as well as a small charger for electrical power and the belt off of the alternator. Easier for me because of the carbs - this combo worked great! Pic below:

Posted by: stugray Apr 17 2014, 10:19 AM

Here is some help:

1- Dont install the pushrods (cranking to prime with pushrods installed will wipe away the cam lube you put on the cam & lifters)
2 - remove the sparkplugs
3 - install a mechanical oil pressure gauge if you have one.
4 - do NOT fill the oil filter with oil before installation
5 - crank the engine until oil pressure peaks then keep cranking for as long as you are comfortable to get oil through the whole system. (Dont overheat the starter - ~10 seconds at a time, then cool off)
6 - check oil and top off if required
7 - reinstall pushrods & set valve lash (with Jakes pushrods, cold lash is zero)
8 - reinstall spark plugs
9 - proceed with engine first startup & follow Jakes cam break-in instructions

Posted by: Highland Apr 17 2014, 03:18 PM

Thanks for all the great advice. I actually do have a spare relay board and VR, but is it required if I'm manually turning on the fuel pump?

How long will the battery last powering the coil/ignition system?

Posted by: 914itis Apr 17 2014, 04:07 PM

A hood battery will last.
I know of someone with a bad alternator and mad the trip from FL to NY on 3 batteries.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Apr 17 2014, 04:13 PM

I think that as long as you power the fuel pump, the ignition, the FI's ECU, and have a connection to the starter (the ECU may need to see the starter--not quite sure!) I think you should be able to run the D-jet. You gotta have all of the grounds, of course.

From the experience of more than one person on this BBS who had a bad alternator, you can run for well over 20 minutes with no alt. Unless you have a points-replacement gizmo; those can be sensitive to voltage and start cutting out if it drops much at all.

--DD

Posted by: 76-914 Apr 17 2014, 04:26 PM

If you hear a loud noise (that sounds like a rod) when you start it pull the valve covers and check to see if a rocker arm is hitting the cover. I almost shit in my shoes when it happened to me running that same valve train. Oh, you'll need a tach too, for break in.

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Apr 18 2014, 12:12 PM

I just finished putting my valvetrain together and I have also installed a 9590 cam. I have heard before about this issue of the rocker arms hitting the valve covers. or I suppose it is the adjusters hitting. I am using the 1.7 rockers with the 911 swivel foot adjusters.
It does seem the adjusters stick up a bit.


how common is this hitting?

I have new heads and valves. is this just an issue with valves that have been reground or heads that have seats that have been cut deeper?

Should I maybe clay the rocker covers for clearance?


I guess you just hammer a little clearance into the covers if its too close.

Posted by: stugray Apr 18 2014, 12:19 PM

I just put in a cam with more lift than the cams you guys are referring to (web 86b).
I also have the 1.7 rockares with swivel feet and ~.050 shims on the rockers.

I have no clearance issues with the covers.
AND I just drove the car for 30 minutes yesterday!
First time this car drove more than a block at a time in ~15 years...

Posted by: eyesright Apr 18 2014, 02:29 PM

I just finished putting my valvetrain together and I have also installed a 9590 cam. I have heard before about this issue of the rocker arms hitting the valve covers. or I suppose it is the adjusters hitting. I am using the 1.7 rockers with the 911 swivel foot adjusters.
It does seem the adjusters stick up a bit.


how common is this hitting?

I have new heads and valves. is this just an issue with valves that have been reground or heads that have seats that have been cut deeper?

Should I maybe clay the rocker covers for clearance?


I guess you just hammer a little clearance into the covers if its too close.
[/quote]

I used a hacksaw to cut off the extra length from the swivel foot adjusters then sawed in a new screw slot. Never had to worry about it.

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Apr 18 2014, 03:22 PM

I also thought about this mod using a dremel to cut a new slot...
Hopefully it won't come to that.

Lift on this cam came out to be .433 - cam card said .426, so I got a little free lift.
Only used .015 shims under rocker arms.

Stu, Congrats on getting in a long drive... if I get to drive mine even down the street in 2014 I will be very happy. Lots of work to do still.

Posted by: r_towle Apr 18 2014, 07:39 PM

Posted by: Highland May 29 2014, 12:22 PM

I tried building oil pressure today and the engine seems to turn over fine but I'm not getting an oil pressure reading. How much cranking does it take to get pressure? Here is some background:

1) Spark plugs and pushrods are removed and filter was not filled.

2) Using a HF oil pressure gage. It has a long hose, about 4 feet.

3) Filled to the bottom line of dip stick and as I cranked, I kept on checking the level and filling (with high frequency). I have about 3.5 quarts in the engine and seems to be holding steady at the bottom line on the dip stick.

4) Unscrewed the filter slightly (by hand only) to see if there was oil in the filter. It appears to be filled.

5) I don't see any leaks anywhere.

Should I keep on cranking till I get oil pressure? If the starter/solenoid is just warm to the touch, should I let it cool or can I keep cranking?

Posted by: stugray May 29 2014, 12:41 PM

It took me longer than I expected.
Just as I was about to start worrying the pressure started coming up and got to about 30-35 PSI.

Once started, it got to 60 PSI or greater until warmed up.
If you got oil to the filter, then the pump is primed and it should be making it to the pressure regulator.
You did put the piston & spring in right? :-)

After the regualtor, it has to fill the oil cooler before pressure begins to build

Posted by: AE354803 May 29 2014, 12:59 PM

If I remember correctly I didn't see much of a noticeable amount of pressure, the needle moved a little (keep in mind the engine is only cranking at a few hundred RPM).


It was more that I could hear when the oil pump primed, the sound of the motor turning over changed drastically, it sounded more damped/smoother/quieter.

Hope that helps?

Posted by: kkid May 29 2014, 03:04 PM

Why NOT for #4?

Posted by: stugray May 29 2014, 03:17 PM

These systems pull oil from the crankcase and blow it through the oil filter.
If the pump is not primed already, then you are trying to pump air to blow oil up out of the filter to the pressure regulator.
This will work slowly if at all.

If you are doing an oil change and the pump is still full of oil (primed already), then you can fill the oil filter if you want.

I have heard of filling the oil pump with some kind of grease, (during installation) to help it prime, but I have never tried that.

If I have to ever start a dry motor again, I might pull the oil filter bracket and backfill the pump with oil from there, then re-install the filter bracket.
I guess you could force oil backwards up through the oil filter bracket with a pump without removing it too.

Posted by: Highland May 29 2014, 05:07 PM

I tried cranking more this afternoon. No oil pressure. So I removed the oil pressure gage and could see oil through the gage opening. I then put the dummy light switch in place of the gage hoping to get a pressure indication there, but nothing.

I'm using a stock type 4 pump. The one off the engine was broken, so I replaced it with another stock pump replacing the o-ring.

Since the oil filter has oil and I can see oil through the oil pressure port I assume oil is circulating through the system. The only thing I can think of is that the pump is worn and cannot maintain pressure or my starter isn't spinning fast enough.

Should I look for another pump and swap pumps?

Posted by: bdstone914 May 29 2014, 05:24 PM

We had a fresh rebuild engine that we could not get the oil light to turn off when turned over by a 914 starter. Used a 911 starter and it went off in a few seconds.
Remove the plugs and spin the engine. You may get it to turn fast enough to turn off the oil pressure light. The pump would have to be really worn to not produce oil pressure.

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 29 2014, 05:55 PM

I used a turkey baster to squirt oil up into the pickup tube on a fresh rebuild. Got pressure pretty quickly after that... But it was a gaddafful mess, what with removing the sump plate and all.

--DD

Posted by: AE354803 May 29 2014, 06:33 PM

If you have oil moving through the passages then you're primed. I would start it, if you start it and you don't have high enough pressure then turn it off and go about all this other stuff.

the pressure is not going to be very high when only the starter is cranking the engine over due to low RPM. If you are really worried about the pump take the gauge off and crank it over for a second, you'll see oil flowing.

Keep in mind the pumps deliver flow based on RPM, the pressure you see is a result of the oil passages/bearings etc restricting the oil's flow. The flow is what you really care about, pressure is just the easy way to ensure that you have enough flow.

Posted by: stugray May 29 2014, 08:57 PM

do you only have the vdo oil press gauge?

I started with a mechanical gauge because I didnt want to trust that the vdo worked right on the first try.
is the vdo sender & gauge grounded to the engine & battery negative?

Posted by: Highland May 29 2014, 09:48 PM

I was using an oil pressure gage from Harbor Freight. I blew some air into it and the gage appears to work.

After not getting any pressure with the mechanical gage, I tried the VDO dummy light gage with an ohm meter hooked up. I believe it reads resistance with low pressure and open when there is oil pressure. As much as I cranked, the ohm meter always showed continuity.

My choices are to tear it down or start it. As advised earlier in the thread, I think I'll just try starting it cause I'm not sure what I'd be looking for if I opened up the engine again. I know the pump is at least powerful enough to flow oil into the filter and I can see oil through the oil pressure gage mount hole.

Posted by: stugray May 30 2014, 07:27 AM

I have never tried it, but has anyone ever filled a grease gun with oil?

It would be a cheap alternative to an accusump.
You could precharge the oil galleys from the oil pressure gauge hole.

Posted by: Highland Jun 4 2014, 07:57 AM

Regarding step 1. I lubed the cam and lifter during installation then set up my pushrod lengths and in the process have turned the motor over many times by hand to verify valve lift geometry. Did this wipe away all the cam lube?

Should I remove all the lifters (push rod tubes) and re-lube the surfaces then spin the motor with no pushrods? Is this part of the break-in process?

Posted by: Java2570 Jun 4 2014, 09:41 AM

When I did my rebuild last year, I had a few tense minutes getting pressure. I think someone here recommended cracking loose the oil filter slightly and cranking the motor over a few times. Even if you see oil in the filter, you can still have an air
bubble holding up the oil progress. It made a mess but after I tightened it back up
and tried again, I got pressure up pretty quick.