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Posted by: thomasotten Apr 19 2014, 09:34 PM

Hello,

I was fortunate to find a 1966 912 for sale and purchased it. No engine, no transmission... no seats!

So the car is rough, but restorable. I was wondering what my club's opinions on the car would be.

An immediate question I have is on the viability of putting in a type IV engine in the car. It just seems that would be easier to find than an original 912/356 engine. But would that hurt the resale?

Just looking over the car, in addition to the above mentioned missing items, I will need new floor pans, dash pad, door panels, gas tank, and and and...

Is this a super money pit? What would this car bring restored? (low and high)

P.S. The two tone paint is because the owner was trying to learn to paint.

Thanks,


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Posted by: Elliot Cannon Apr 19 2014, 09:43 PM

The tires don't look too bad.

Posted by: PanelBilly Apr 19 2014, 09:59 PM

Outlaw car! Do whatever you please. Its not ever going to be original again. Put a suby in it and drive

Posted by: 2mAn Apr 19 2014, 10:07 PM

since its missing anything that would make its resale high (original parts) I say get wild.

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 19 2014, 10:14 PM

Putting a type IV engine will be a lot cheaper and easier to find. The sheet metal to sela it may be challenging.

Check out the cars for sale on the 912 Registry. The are going up in value but they value original cars.

If it is worth the cost to restore it to your desired level got for it.

Bruce

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 19 2014, 10:17 PM

And I have a 1966 rebuilt 5 speed if you decide to go for it.

Posted by: RonW Apr 19 2014, 10:19 PM

Done both the t4 and currently running suby motor/trans. Like what was mentioned earlier, do what makes u happy.
My $0.02

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2014, 11:26 PM

Find a 6... 2.0 liter...

Not real sure but those things are worth a fortune these days and you might catch a tail wind...

Posted by: r3dplanet Apr 19 2014, 11:34 PM

I really, really, really miss my 912. I look around from time to time but they're always crazy expensive. If I found one like the one you found I'd be all over it, too. I'd go with a Type-4 engine for sure.

Posted by: GeorgeRud Apr 19 2014, 11:38 PM

I'd go for a type 4 as well. They can be quite bulletproof, relatively inexpensive, and you would escape emission requirements with the age of the car.

It would make a nice, fun car when you're finished. Enjoy your project in good health!

Posted by: roachghia70 Apr 20 2014, 12:00 AM

Agreed! SUBARU.

Ive built a few stroked T4 engines, and a few stroked T1 engines, but after driving cars with stock Subarus swapped in (bugs, 914s, and even a VW Bus) I won't do anything but Subaru. It just doesn't make sense to spend twice as much on a T4 build, just to get half the power, a quarter the reliability, and require 6 times the regular maintenance. Not to mention the oil leaks!

It's an outlaw car anyway, so stick a Subaru in there! Just take the time to do it clean, with minimal cutting of the car, and you won't regret it.

Posted by: ipadstott Apr 20 2014, 04:18 AM

That is one of my favourites, if you want to keep it all Porsche consider a nice engine from Jake Raby. I look forward to watching your progress, hope you post often with great pics!

Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada

Posted by: r_towle Apr 20 2014, 05:55 AM

A rebuilt 356 motor will be 10k.
Not hard to find, and will raise the value more than any type 4 motor.

Rich

Posted by: barefoot Apr 20 2014, 08:35 AM

IIRC the 1976 912E had a type 4 motor, engine tins somewhat different from 914 parts, so somewhat rarer.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 20 2014, 09:59 AM

Outlaw. If it were mine I would use a type IV or Porsche 6. But that's just me.

Posted by: colingreene Apr 20 2014, 12:36 PM

idk find a stock motor and hot rod it.

Posted by: smarens Apr 20 2014, 12:54 PM

I have been looking/thinking about 912 also, not really interested in an original so I was looking at cars similar to what you found, I was thinking of Type IV motor in it or for what I thought would be $3-$4k more renegade kit for 911, didn't finish research to see if everything would work

Posted by: JmuRiz Apr 20 2014, 12:58 PM

I'd make a 912/6 without a second thought with that as a base.

Posted by: patrick3000 Apr 20 2014, 01:50 PM

X2 a 2.7 would work very well in that car.

Posted by: Drums66 Apr 20 2014, 03:21 PM

...Try to do it up original!.........& things could get very prosperous

God bless(he lives!)

Posted by: David Stowers Apr 20 2014, 03:45 PM

Put a six cylinder Porsche engine in, 2.4, 2.7, 3.0, 3.2. It deserves it, please don't hack lumps out of it to put a Subaru engine in it.

Posted by: john77 Apr 20 2014, 04:16 PM

Sounds from your post like you plan to build something to sell.

Not too familiar with 912 prices, but I know the 911 bubble has dragged them up. Looks like a money pit right now, who knows though, 10 years from now it might be worth 2014 911T barn find money

Might be worth looking at what it will cost to drop a 6 in it and do all the other necessary upgrades. The 911 market is so crazy right now that a lot of people priced out of it will be willing to forgive the fact this started life as a 912 and pay good money if you build it into a nice "911" hotrod. At that point the originality won't matter just the quality of the build.

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Apr 20 2014, 04:22 PM

I'd turn it into a street legal 911 GT1, the only mid engine 911 ever made, but I'm a bit eccentric...


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Posted by: thomasotten Apr 20 2014, 08:34 PM

I'm German, so no worries! Habt keine Angst!

Posted by: boxstr Apr 20 2014, 09:32 PM

I remeber my barn find 1967 912. It had a rat living in the smugglers box. Had to rebuild the calipers, frozen. After that it was just a lot of detailing and cleaning.
It was as much fun as all of the 911s that I have owned and driven. Personally I would embrace the stock 912restoration. The 912 registry is an excellent place to find out more information and supplier and vendors contacts.
Good luck with your project.
Craig at CAMP

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2014, 10:51 PM

Corvair motor

Posted by: carr914 Apr 21 2014, 04:46 AM

I would just stash it away and wait for Early 912s to go higher in price

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 21 2014, 04:53 AM

I have a fresh 2.4/6 that I don't have a use for.. Was just going to make it look pretty and put it in my office at home, on a stand…. You need it more than I do! :-)

Posted by: Dave_Darling Apr 21 2014, 08:27 AM

I'm thinking that, for resale value, having a 912 engine (not a 912E engine) would be the best.

If it's not for resale, figure out what makes you grin the hardest and go for it...

--DD

Posted by: veekry9 Apr 21 2014, 09:42 AM

Hi-912

A YellowMellow

BlockLessHeads

CranknRods

A close approximation of the factory product will always have good value,that said the expenses to get there makes it hard to justify.
I have a '72 914 engine+tx that would fit midway!
Be the first..

Posted by: thomasotten May 3 2014, 06:12 AM

Curious, are will the normal 912 engine mounts work for a type IV conversion on the 912?

Posted by: ClayPerrine May 3 2014, 07:03 AM

I have, sitting behind my house, a 68 912. It is destined to become a 912-6 when I get time to work on it.

Yellow paint job, upgraded brakes to vented disks, and a 2.4L six in it. I have all the parts in my garage for the engine and trans. I just need a set of 40IDA3c carbs and manifolds. Or maybe I will go megasquirt with it.

But I am making a 912-6 badge for the back, just to piss off the Porsche purists.

Posted by: maf914 May 3 2014, 07:21 AM

The ShopTalkForums have plenty of info concerning Type 4 912 conversions, but you may have to dig a bit. One forum member, Griznant, did a nice conversion and made multiple posts concerning it. Several of the regulars from 914World made comments as well. This was years ago, wow time flies. Try the following links. You may have to register to access all features on the site.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98788&start=0

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/search.php?author_id=337&sr=posts

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=337

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/index.php

Posted by: mepstein May 3 2014, 07:44 AM

If you try to fix it up to sell, you will be upside down, even if you got the car for free. If you want to make money, wholesale it, that is, sell it in its present condition for more than you paid. -no risk, all profit, aka- flip

Posted by: bcheney May 3 2014, 07:49 AM

It's definitely a money pit....all restorations are! If you need replacement sheet metal Restoration Design is a great place for advice and parts.

http://www.restoration-design.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=911-CHA

912 values most likely will go up and I agree that putting a Porsche 6 is the route of choice unless you are going for a full restoration to bring it back to it's original glory. I would consider talking to Jake about his 2.4. He is well respected in the community. I have a buddy here in Florida who has a 912 and he is nearing the end of his restoration and loves the car! Just decide what your budget and overall goal is and go for it...then, along the way you can just adopt the US Navy's thinking..."A plan is simply a basis for change"! Have fun!!

Posted by: r_towle May 3 2014, 08:11 AM

No, and yes.

There is a rear bar for the 912-e that you need.
That is the one year with the type 4 motor, so it won't be simple to find, but if you look at one, you might be able to make it.

There is also 912-e engine tin, again for the type 4

The 912-e was a one year only 1976 car.

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 3 2014, 04:30 PM

Not only was the 912E a one-year car, but there were only 2099 of them made. I'll let you figure out how likely you are to find parts from one.

It's probably easier to fabricate your own mount, which will go to the stock mounting points.

--DD

Posted by: jmalone May 3 2014, 05:07 PM

Yep, your Evil.

Posted by: BKLA May 3 2014, 07:00 PM

$$$ no object? Go Polo! 4cyl based on the 6. Bring big money, tho!

Posted by: thomasotten May 4 2014, 08:53 AM

Thanks for the links.

On ebay right now: This awesome car seems to utilize the bus motor mount.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-912-912-911-912s-1967-porsche-912-targa-restoration-project-clean-clear-fl-title-no-reserve-/201080802218?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2ed1598baa&item=201080802218&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Posted by: McMark May 4 2014, 09:20 AM

I agree with going to a six.

But I make some mounting stuff for the conversion which is based on the 912E stuff. You can use the bus engine bar and the stock engine mounts. But the 912E style system removes about 5-8" of height from the engine bar to body mount span. Using the stock body mounts with the type 4 results in a long U shaped mount bar. This tends to allow the motor to shift forward/backward in the car because it has so much leverage. It works. I've done it. But it's not great and will chew up transmission mounts pretty quickly. Add body mounts below the frame rail and you'll be much better off.


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Posted by: KELTY360 May 4 2014, 09:21 AM

Barnum was right.

Posted by: thomasotten May 24 2014, 01:21 AM

Since I am leaning towards a six, what is conventional wisdom as to the largest motor that I could install and still use the original gearbox?

Another related question. This is a SWB car. I presume that means I must stay with a SWB transmission. I want a fairly straightforward six conversion.

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 24 2014, 02:26 PM

Andy's got a 993 3.6 liter in front of a 901-based 914 gearbox... It will work as long as it's in good shape and you don't abuse it.

--DD

Posted by: thomasotten May 28 2014, 06:54 AM

Thinking of doing a 2.4 Liter or 2.7 Liter 911 engine install, and keeping the fuel injection system intact. Do these engines require an ECU or brain box similar to the 914's fuel injection system? I other words, if I buy one of these engines, is there some electronics that I need to make sure I acquire as well?

Posted by: JmuRiz May 28 2014, 07:45 AM

2.4 CIS and 2.7CIS do not have a brain. They are very simple systems. If you have a 2.4 with carbs they are super simple as well, the 2.4 MFI are complex but do-able if they MFI is tuned correctly.

Posted by: Steve May 28 2014, 12:30 PM

I would do a 2.4-2.7 if you want to stay with the stock trans. 3.2-3.6 you will end up starting off in second and more or less only have a 4 speed. 2.4-2.7 you can use an early 2.0 flywheel and stock clutch. I loved my 2.7 with webers and the stock trans.

Posted by: thomasotten May 28 2014, 06:28 PM

So the 2.4 and 2.7 do not have a brain box like the 914 fuel injection? So then it is pretty simple bolt on then, huh? Do you need an external oil cooler for either 2.4 or the 2.7?

Posted by: JmuRiz May 28 2014, 06:46 PM

Need...no, want...yes

Posted by: bigkensteele May 28 2014, 06:59 PM

If you decide to go with a T4, I have a set of engine tin that I have pulled off my 2.7 donor which could be used to fashion a set for your conversion. I would be glad to donate to your cause.

If you go with a 2.7, look for a '74. They did not have the thermal reactors that caused the later engines to bake themselves. Most have been rebuilt by now, but I have been told is that a '74 is what you want to start with.

Posted by: r_towle May 28 2014, 09:13 PM

Mark,

IC a tubular bar that maybe you made.....got that.
What is the cast part? Is that a stock bar from a 912e?

Is that a specific part that can be purchased?

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 28 2014, 10:11 PM

None of the 911s have a brain box until you hit the Motronic injection with the 1984 3.2 Carreras. No electronic injection at all until then.

At some point--probably 1980?--the CIS cars had a "frequency valve" that was an electric gizmo controlled by the O2 sensor which fiddled the CIS mixture. But that's not the same as a "brain box".

--DD

Posted by: euro911 May 29 2014, 12:58 AM

I'm just finishing up a '68 616 (912) motor that I was going to stick in my wife's '67 bug, but we decided to sell the bug (as-is).

Not sure if I'm going to sell the motor or keep as a spare for my '66 912

Sounds like you're leaning towards a '6' anyway. Go with the 2.7L

Posted by: jcd914 May 29 2014, 02:21 AM

Except if by "brain box" you mean the typical looking Bosch control unit with a 25 pin connector that controls the frequency valve. 1980 thru 1983 911 SC's used the the O2 sensor & frequency valve and the control unit that came with them.

Jim

Posted by: cmpski Jul 5 2014, 09:42 PM

www.PompoloDesign.com
2.4 liter
3.0 to 3.2 torque
180 rear wheel hp. Close to 2.7 RS gross hp.
100 pounds lighter than a 6.
6 to 8 inches shorter for better weight distribution. This helps alot on the early SWB cars.
Expensive but worth it. About the same price as a quality 911 rebuild.
Built by Dean the designer, RUF, Craig Smith, Canepa, Rothsport, Jerry Woods, and others.
Handles like a 912 and goes like a 911.
Chris


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Posted by: barefoot Jul 6 2014, 07:10 AM

YES, 1980 911SC was first year (in USA) to use O2 Lamda sensor to adjust fuel mixture with feedback system.

Posted by: funk Jul 19 2014, 10:46 PM

realistically place a 914 in the same condition next to this 912 and from restoration design prices the panels aren't much more to do a solid stock conversion. go with a talented old school vw mechanic to rebuild and you can pump up the volume without the raby hype and price !!

Posted by: BK911 Jul 20 2014, 10:05 AM

Recently picked up a 69 912. The stock 4 has plenty of power to zip around the local roads. No need for -6 power.

Posted by: euro911 Jul 20 2014, 11:16 AM

Awesome. The reduction in weight coupled with a more centralized weight distribution makes the 912 pretty nimble, and will give a 2.0L T '6' of the same vintage some serious competition. If you ever get the opportunity, see what a mere increase to 1720cc does

Congrats