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Posted by: 914Sixer Jun 1 2014, 08:26 PM

Does this car belong to any one here? Shows to be in San Diego, CA. Says complete restoration before it was hit. Donor car that goes with it is a 75.

Posted by: Beach914 Jun 1 2014, 08:38 PM

Saw it on craigslist also. Checked the vin in the database and find that it is not entered.

Posted by: toolguy Jun 1 2014, 08:50 PM

Belongs to a shop next to my nephews business. . I looked it over last week. . Hit EXTREMELY HARD in the front, IMHO front frame is not salvageable, cowl and windshield bent badly. . . fenders pushed back into doors and doors back into rear fenders. . all panels bent. .
Good part is it is a real six has correct engine and trans and has 'most' of the real six parts. . had repop rims, and evidence of lots of thick bondo broken loose under 2-3 paint jobs. .currently dark green. . the silver 75 that's included has issues also . .

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 1 2014, 09:08 PM

Got a link?

Posted by: siverson Jun 1 2014, 09:42 PM

Wow, that was it really heard.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/cto/4498408781.html

Cracked the dash.

-Steve

Posted by: damesandhotrods Jun 1 2014, 09:54 PM

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1645700


Yeah, but The Samba has bigger pictures…

Posted by: Chris H. Jun 1 2014, 09:58 PM

Yeah that thing got popped good. A '75 is not a good donor car for a real 6'er. The front trunk area is completely different due to the BBB's.

Posted by: Mikey914 Jun 1 2014, 10:16 PM

75 is a crappy donor for the 6. The front trunk is all wrong, and you don't get the bumper you need to replace. The math is'nt right here. At least yet.
32k+ $15 in repairs and another 5k in parts, you get a totally reconstructed car for 50-53k, with a motor that may have been damaged if it was in gear when it hit.
Not much upside for the work that needs ot be done.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 1 2014, 10:25 PM

I would love to repair that car. I agree with Mark. The price is way out of whack for the extensive cost to repair. I think it's still tight at 20k plus the 75. Specially when we haven't seen the hell hole or longs. But you have to start someplace.

Sell the 75 as a driver and purchase a correct early donor car for the clip.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 1 2014, 11:26 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Gustl Jun 2 2014, 02:14 AM

could anybody read the paint code ...?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: carr914 Jun 2 2014, 04:59 AM

I see a LOT more money than that to get that car to where it needs to be!. The Front, Both Sides & PS Interior are FUBAR. Plus it's got a bunch of regular parts that need to be placed that are incorrect and a set of wheels.

I don't know what Rick would charge for his part, but it better be a lot more than $15k

In the end you get a car that has been in a Major Accident and that effects value. I wouldn't trust to drive it unless Rick rebuilt it!

Posted by: bulitt Jun 2 2014, 05:50 AM

Lot 37, No reserve, beautifully restored 916-6

It's just an old car.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 2 2014, 07:23 AM

Thanks for the compliment. I can tell you that chassis is twisted bad. They complicated the repair already by cutting out the corner before relieving the stress. But with the correct approach and LOTS of parts the car can be as it was. The purchase price would really have to be right to start.

I don't think the word "totaled" applies to many of our 914's we see damaged these days. There was one recently in the classifieds that had a salvage title from 20 years ago with a repair cost like less than a couple grand. 20 years ago? Ya. Today? No way!

Sure, some have no hope of being saved if run though a full on collision shop. But there are several guys on the forum that specialize in 914's now. Parts cars are getting harder to cut up as their value as a repaired car is coming up too. But hey when your talking sacrificing a 4 car for a 6...

Posted by: toolguy Jun 2 2014, 11:05 AM

the picture actually looks good compared to seeing it in person. . the front end is not only pushed back, the whole front clip is also pushed over to the passengers side.. my best estimate is that the frame stress points under and behind the gas tank compressed and bent to the left an inch or so.
the cowl is buckled much more when seen in person and needs replacement. . adding up all the visible damage and estimating the issues not readily visible means to me you'd need another body and transfer all the parts over. . . way too many structural issues to straighten and be reliable.

Trying to estimate how this cars condition was prior to the accident leads me to believe it was a 35-45K car then. . . the accident exposed shortcuts on prior body work under the multiple layers of paint. . In the future this will be considered a cost worthy project as Six prices increase and real six parts get more rare. . but starting at 35K for this doesn't equate to a realistic project at today's costs.
I'd expect this has a salvage title, or should have if it was a proper insurance claim, and that drastically would reduce the cars ultimate resale value once rebuilt. Also had wrong rear bumper- late style in place. the guy that has it said the car came from New York, so I wonder about east coast type of rust issues also. .

The silver car had door gaps on the passengers side looking like sagging, and had an early trans with a tailshifter unit still left on it but with a side shift conversion in place and connected . .

Posted by: zymurgist Jun 2 2014, 12:35 PM

How much for just the VIN plate?

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 2 2014, 12:49 PM

I agree with the price point being high but as far as unrepairable goes I have fixed worse and had it recertified. Once the guy that owns the cars comes off the moon it will be a matter of planning. Once you pull the stress out of the chassis and remove all that is not repairable the car looks totally different. All the bolt on parts and sheet metal are the same as the 4. There are a few "6" specific parts that would have to be sourced but the trick is getting the car pulled and assembled while on fixtures.

Posted by: Chris H. Jun 2 2014, 01:26 PM

I bet Andy won't be offering his 6 tub for $5k ever again.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 2 2014, 03:32 PM

The 914-6 has the 911 paint codes, so Irish green is 15

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 2 2014, 03:37 PM

Start with this, and 2 fenders and a cowl section, and lots of time and patience.
oh ya and $$$... forget the silver car not even worth mentioning...


Attached image(s)

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 2 2014, 03:57 PM

Nope, y'all had your chance ...

Posted by: Gustl Jun 2 2014, 04:01 PM

so far so good ... but I doubt that this badge shows a "5" as second digit ...

Posted by: poorsche914 Jun 2 2014, 04:40 PM

Was difficult to bring much out but it looks like the lower curve of a 5 and very slight curve above that. Appears that area is dented in slightly so has shadowing on it.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 2 2014, 05:02 PM

Looks like 43, Willow Green, which wasn't a '70 color ...

Posted by: toolguy Jun 2 2014, 06:46 PM

Got to be one of these. . . funny the inside of the body is black, which was not a 914-6 1970 color but was a 71 optional color # 10. . this cars serial number is for a 1970 ie--- 043 ----

optional colors all started with digit "8"

Standard Colors 1970 914-6 starting with digit "1"

Light Ivory 1110

Signal Orange 1410

Irish Green 1510

Adriatic Blue 1610

Posted by: skier2.0 Jun 2 2014, 06:58 PM

Car needs to be benched on a Celette or Blackhawk with fixtures. Why is everything undercoated trunk, undercarriage looks like a quick "resto". $32K LOL.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 2 2014, 07:22 PM

It was an Irish green car no doubt, look at the smashed fender well picture where the under coat is peeled off...Irish Green...
Andy , 70's german 1's have the hood at top at a great angle down, much like the start of a 4.


http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=colors

Posted by: ruby914 Jun 2 2014, 08:07 PM

Would it be unorthodox, fraudulent or just wrong.
To get a clean “rust free” 1971 donor car, move all 914-6 specific parts and all VIN ID to the donor (including body stampings) and scrap the original 6 body?

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 2 2014, 08:20 PM

Probably priced the 75 at 10k given the others on Samba, making it 22k for the wreck.

Posted by: siverson Jun 2 2014, 09:23 PM

Yes and illegal in CA.

-Steve

Posted by: ruby914 Jun 2 2014, 10:01 PM

Nothing stolen. Everything original, but everything around “everything original”, replaced.
Just wondering where you draw the line?

Posted by: pete000 Jun 2 2014, 11:12 PM

Send it back to the factory restoration shop and they would do a legal vin swap. I have heard they have done so with early 911s. They would probably bill you 90 grand for a Pebble Beach Concours quality restoration fully documented. They can restore anything...

Posted by: Old Yella Jun 2 2014, 11:52 PM

Isn't that a 75-76 front clip? and wasn't it stolen? has it been found again?

Posted by: SixerJ Jun 3 2014, 12:12 AM

The fact that the only picture of a reasonably good shut line is the RH boot (sorry trunk) would be ringing alarm bells in my mind

If the shop was being honest they would have posted pictures of both sides of the car, top down with taga top (hanging over the back of the roll bar etc). At least then people would have a realistic view of just how bad the tub was, but that wouldn't service the 35k price tag.......thank goodness for the community and Toolguy being on the spot

In the UK the paint on its own would be 8-12k, plus repairs......as stated the maths just don't work

Ref vin numbers, equally illegal here to do a straight swap without the proper oversight. I know of at least one car (a 911) that was inspected by both Porsche and the DVLA (your DMV) to verify correct repair / swap. Even then it gets extra chassis stamps to record the change

This car will be repaired at some point, because of the increasing values. However it will also be on the 914 database.....if ever advertised in the future as a one careful lady owner we will know the truth

Posted by: carr914 Jun 3 2014, 04:09 AM

That's what I thought too - the one Armando was looking for!

Posted by: GregAmy Jun 3 2014, 07:18 AM

Probably technically illegal, but in reality it's not fraudulent if done above-board. Hell, it's not even unusual (see "complete restoration"; how many are actually the original parts? Does it matter?)

Think of it this way: you buy this wrecked car. At the same time, you buy a clean rust-free 1971 donor car (I'm assuming you're talking about a cheaper /4). You take all the replacement parts you need - ones that are the same - from the /4, one-by-one, and use them as spare parts for the /6. Your /6 needs a S**T-ton of parts, so you end up replacing every part on the /6 with one from the /4 (and buying any /6 parts as needed to complete the restoration). In fact, the parts where the VIN are stamped need replacing too, so you replace those as well, transferring the VIN part as needed into that replacement part.

Have you committed fraud?

ON the other hand, what is the difference between taking all the replacement parts from the /4 and putting them on the VIN of the wrecked /6, versus taking the VIN of the wrecked /6 and properly grafting it to the /4 chassis (and replacing any non-/6 parts)? Is there really a difference? When you're done, you end up in the same place...

If you think doing this is committing fraud, then consider what if instead of buying a /4 to use as parts, you bought all the replacement parts - same exact parts - from a reputable breaker. Who got all the parts from a /4. In the end you've done the same thing, so have you now also committed fraud? If so, then how can you legally repair this wrecked car? CAN you legally restore it in that case?

And note that we're not talking about mis-representing it when you're done. You will represent it as a wrecked 914/6 that was lovingly restored in a detailed manner, using parts from a used car. The buyer, a Porsche aficionado that knows these cars better than anyone else in the world, can properly determine that all parts on this restored car are the correct ones; there is nothing incorrect for the model.

These are questions that are hotly debated in many circles where serial-numbered vehicles are becoming valuable, to the point where such activities are becoming economical. There are many cases where expeditions are going out to jungles and at the bottom of oceans find wrecked WW2 airplanes, solely for the purpose of recovering the serial data plate. Hell, I know of a guy that spend a lot of rigging time recovering an old 1950-s race car from the side of a mountain just for the data plate. That's literally all he brought up.

In the end, it comes down to the philosophical question of "what constitutes a car?" And in the end, legally, a car is the data plate(s) and the title. If you legally have those, then you can legally build something to drive around the data plate(s)...

Hey, I've replaced the head twice and the handle three times, but it's still the same ole axe!

Greg

Posted by: 396 Jun 3 2014, 07:38 AM

Well said.

Posted by: Mikey914 Jun 3 2014, 10:12 AM

we're not talking about mis-representing it when you're done.



This is the key

Yes, the market value will take a hit as the purists will probably be out (and they com and the higher price higher price for the factory original parts.
Thinks about it, you can buy a pure car for 75k with an upside that has no limit, or build this one at $45k that will not participate in the upside as much as the "clean" car.

Basically, the car took 2 hits, the accident and the value. It will however decrees the pool driving the pure cars up.

If you just want a six build one, if you are trying to save a car great!

But to speculate on the upside value right out of the gate, would take a lower price up front to make it worth while.

Posted by: toolguy Jun 3 2014, 10:28 AM

one thing in the sellers favor, his local Craigslist ad shows multiple pictures of most of the car. .
All things considered, this vehicle SHOULD NOW HAVE A SALVAGE TITLE. That title would
follow the car and let future prospective buyers be aware of the cars past. .
Yeah I know titles can be washed, but because we [914World] have addressed
the cars condition with the vin associated in this post , future internet searches
of the vin will document the accident and reconstruction. .

PS.. there is no question about legality, transferring vin tags to another vehicle is illegal and also constituents fraud even if there was no original intent to decieve, as the act of changing number was deliberate.. All the rationalization in the world won't stand up in court. Fraud can be traceable back thru change of owners to the offending party.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 3 2014, 11:32 AM

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jun 3 2014, 12:32 PM

Could someone tell me what's so wrong about using a 75 clip to repair a six front end? I know it's modified for the bumper shocks, has the fuel pump cover & has the curved front reinforcements, but so what? If your going to replace the whole front clip anyway, the differences could easily be cut & welded away. I actually have a set of the curved reinforcements I was planning to install them in my original six when I get around to redoing her & was also thinking of getting a fuel pump cover & installing that as well. I can see not doing so for a restoration, but for a restomod why not? (I'm not talking legal or moral here, just physically.)

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 3 2014, 01:17 PM

People pay more for original look and feel.

I personally would never use anything but a '70 clip to fix a '70 /6.
In fact, all the sheetmetal i accumulated for my /6 repair is a exact match to what is being replaced.

Everything else is a hack and will diminish the value of the car ...

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 3 2014, 01:57 PM

Why do you think it should have a salvage title? Have you done chassis restoration? If not you really need to rethink your statement.

If YOUR car is restored and has had any welding done to it that does not look absolutely untouched is it suspect and should have a lower price? Is rust any less damaging than accident damage? Their both damage and both can be repaired. Classic cars with rising values should not be subject to salvage title consideration. Specially when so many cars are falling in half and many are subjected to back yard repairs that fall far from safe and proper.

When repairing accident damage the goal is to restore things to pre-accident condition. It seems people always bring up this concept of swapping vins as an easy method of repair when in this case the correct method is to re-dimension the chassis repairing panels as you work the damage out and relieve the stress in the chassis.

Next you need to remove what can not be restored and replace the un-restorable parts with LKQ parts. Like, kind and quality would mean new parts if available or used parts manufactured in 1970 or newer. The car is a 1970. There is no reason 1970 used or salvaged parts could not be considered a method of restoring the car to pre-accident condition.

Like I said, I repaired cars crashed way harder and had the state recertify the car to be used safely on our streets and highways.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 3 2014, 01:59 PM

But properly repaired you should be able to present your car as well as a rust repaired chassis.

Posted by: toolguy Jun 3 2014, 05:14 PM

OK. . if it was repairable, the owners insurance company would have paid to have it repaired. . . If it's not repairable, the insurance pays the claim and takes title of the car. . .

IIRC, once an insurance company writes it off, the title transfers to them and becomes blemished. . .If you want to keep your car, then you actually buy it back from the insurance company with the salvage title attached. . . In todays world of computers and Car_Fax, this cars history should be well documented if it was insured and any claim was presented to the company. .

Quote But properly repaired you should be able to present your car as well as a rust repaired chassis.

Thats like claiming an open heart surgery, was just a blood transfusion. .

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 3 2014, 06:50 PM

Toolguy, that simply is not true, I Know of a couple of well known 914-6's that were rusty and repaired and very twisted in the end,
no matter the situation it is either right or wrong..The insurance thing true its a total, but if he had liability only , the PO is just out, no branded title....there is a lot of things to check out on this 914-6 before thinking its reasonable..........

I would much rather fix a wreck than a rusty 914...That's just me .....

I sold my totaled 914-6 for $1500 and bought it back in trade for approx. $2000, No motor or trans. still in my name...time span of about 15 yrs..

I do agree , if its been paid off by insurance, the buy back was no where near the asking price, and it has a branded title....lots of research needed..

Posted by: chad newton Jun 3 2014, 07:08 PM

I got a 71 and can come up with engine and parts. Anyone want to partner up.

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jun 3 2014, 07:14 PM

Cars & motorcycles are totaled by insurance companies because of the cost to repair them, not the amount of damage they have. As for salvage titles they mean nothing- titles can be "washed". States like mine & West Va. don't issue salvage titles so once registered in the state they have a clean, salvage free title. When I rebuilt my motorcycle I lived in Md. & had to go to the state police to undergo a serious inspection in order to even obtain a salvage title. Afterwards, when I moved to Va. & registered my bike here they issued me a clean title that does not have the word salvage written on it anywhere. I will presume that if I looked up my bike (96 VFR) on carfax I'd see it labeled as salvage, but any vehicle built prior to 1981 is not listed on carfax @ the moment so if it's title has been washed you have no way of knowing if it was ever totaled. As for repairing, I agree with Rick- rust or collision a repair is a repair & as long as it's done well who cares.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 3 2014, 09:18 PM

I'm a former collision shop/resto shop owner and currently an insurance adjuster. Your not telling me anything I don't know. But when it comes to branding titles it isn't always done. Many cars are wrecked and not branded. Depends on the state and the insurance carrier. Specially when it comes to classic/collector vehicles. I agree with Jeff. (sixnotfour) How many times have guys started threads "I twisted my car while welding up rust how do I fix it?" You would be surprised how much of that car will actually pull, hammer and dolly out and be saved. When I start my 6 pull I'll show you.

Posted by: seangee Jun 18 2018, 02:21 PM

I bought this car and the guy who fixed it has done several porsches, mostly 911's, also used a 1970 914. the car has a clean title and I am putting it up for sale simply because I am older now and thinning the heard way out in keeping 2 porsches for my kids to inherit, one being a 930 so I will be putting the car up for sale. current porsches are being built not to repair per Porsche, they would rather upsell into something new and control the market pretty similar to tesla. anyway, the car runs and drives great.

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jun 18 2018, 04:42 PM

Runs and drives great.
Possibly a picture ?
Don't bother with focus.
Lift the car cover a little.
Anyway, GLWTS