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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Son wants a 944 as a DD
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 09:49 AM
So my son and I are looking for his first car and he has about $3k to spend.
He does not have a lot of driving experience, but does ok.
Of course, seeing me putting 7 – 10k miles/year on the 914 has him thinking he can buy and old car as a DD.
I’ve further created a monster as he wants a 944.
I have serious reservations about this choice based on New England winters and the age of the cars.
Tonight we are going to look at a turbo that I have even more reservations about.
He won’t have a garage (but I do), has mediocre mechanical skills (i.e. I’ll be working on whatever he gets too) and will need it reliable enough to get to work every day.
So what do you guys think?
He also likes Mini Coopers, but we are having a hard time finding one close in his price range.
He doesn’t like Golf’s with the 2.0 and I don’t like the 1.8T (or anything else old with a turbo or supercharger).
He sort of likes the 1993 to 99 Celica.
He is looking for something with some panache and likes the Euro brands better.
I am trying to get him to realize that this is his first car not his last and that safety and reliability are more important.
So what say you? If not the 944 then what?
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 30 2014, 10:04 AM
How badly do YOU want pay or spend time replacing a timing belt and everything that goes with it? Sounds like he's younger. How much to insure a 944 in his age bracket?
Posted by: motorvated Jun 30 2014, 10:13 AM
So my son and I are looking for his first car and he has about $3k to spend.
He does not have a lot of driving experience, but does ok.
Of course, seeing me putting 7 – 10k miles/year on the 914 has him thinking he can buy and old car as a DD.
I’ve further created a monster as he wants a 944.
I have serious reservations about this choice based on New England winters and the age of the cars.
Tonight we are going to look at a turbo that I have even more reservations about.
He won’t have a garage (but I do), has mediocre mechanical skills (i.e. I’ll be working on whatever he gets too) and will need it reliable enough to get to work every day.
So what do you guys think?
He also likes Mini Coopers, but we are having a hard time finding one close in his price range.
He doesn’t like Golf’s with the 2.0 and I don’t like the 1.8T (or anything else old with a turbo or supercharger).
He sort of likes the 1993 to 99 Celica.
He is looking for something with some panache and likes the Euro brands better.
I am trying to get him to realize that this is his first car not his last and that safety and reliability are more important.
So what say you? If not the 944 then what?
If you don't want to spend much time working on it, I'd stick with Japanese. Something like a '94-ish Mazda MX-6 LS with the V-6. I drove one daily for several years and it was a fun and reliable drive. When I went to sell it, I discovered that the young kids were seeking them out. Decent performance. Great handling, and very stylish. And close to 30 mpg to boot.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jun 30 2014, 10:26 AM
DD = Honda Civic. Cheap, reliable, paid for & what I use... a 95 4 door. Of course I had to play with it since it did not meet my performance expectations but that was also cheap & easy, since it's a plug & play type car. 
944s are relatively cheap & reliable also, but when they go down they go down expen$ive.
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Posted by: Amphicar770 Jun 30 2014, 10:50 AM
I have to concur with others. Had a civic for several years and never did more than change the oil.
Likewise, for a new driver, modern safety features like air bags are important to have.
My son wants an Aston Martin. He will more likely be getting Mom's minivan when we replace it!
Posted by: poorsche914 Jun 30 2014, 10:58 AM
You just can't beat a Honda Civic for an inexpensive DD that is easy to upgrade.
My wife has a 2000 Civic with nearly 250K on it. Just now needing a clutch. Last year had to replace a leaking radiator. I was dreading the job but all it took was $50 and about 15 minutes 
My son had an '83 944. Great car until a $5 O-ring went bad allowing oil in the coolant. Cost to repair? Well over a grand 
Ended up selling the car. He now drives an '02 GTI 1.8T. He has had good luck with it over the past 5 years or so.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 10:58 AM
How badly do YOU want pay or spend time replacing a timing belt and everything that goes with it? Sounds like he's younger. How much to insure a 944 in his age bracket?
He is younger, but pretty much anything old and cheap is about $90 - $100 a month for Prgressive.
We would be looking for a car that has had the timing belt and any other major required maintenance done.
Posted by: CptTripps Jun 30 2014, 11:00 AM
Grab an '04 WRX. They can be had less than a 944, and won't break down like a 944. Also likely faster...especially in the snow that's going to start falling in 6-9mos.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 11:02 AM
You just can't beat a Honda Civic for an inexpensive DD that is easy to upgrade.
My wife has a 2000 Civic with nearly 250K on it. Just now needing a clutch. Last year had to replace a leaking radiator. I was dreading the job but all it took was $50 and about 15 minutes
My son had an '83 944. Great car until a $5 O-ring went bad allowing oil in the coolant. Cost to repair? Well over a grand
Ended up selling the car. He now drives an '02 GTI 1.8T. He has had good luck with it over the past 5 years or so.While we both know Hondas are great cars, because of the tuner boy thing he really can't stomach one.
He won't drive a Focus either because his sister has one and that makes it a girl's car.
Yes he is driving me nuts!
But once he has a car, then he is getting an apartment - so I am motivated to find a seat for his ass!
Posted by: wes Jun 30 2014, 11:03 AM
I've had and really like 944s though of all, the turbo could be a money pit as just replacing a pan gasket would be an all day job for a Porsche mechanic and a timing belt is over a $1000 to replace on any 944. As said above would be the wiser way to go, good luck.
Posted by: michael7810 Jun 30 2014, 11:05 AM
I love driving my 944 Turbo but...
Posted on Jalopnik in Response to the Question "What is the Hardest Car to Work On?"
Porsche 944T/951. It will test your supply of supposedly 'complete' metric tools. I have more cut up and shortened wrenches, allen sets, and sockets for this car than every other car that I have ever owned combined. Since it has a transaxle and torque tube, enjoy an 8 hour drivetrain pull for what used to be mundane things. (Boxster/911 guys, enjoy your drivetrain pull that is not spread out over the underside of an entire car and also attached to front suspension...). People that can thread the bolt for the dipstick tube in without loosening the intake are either wizards or are in the Guinness Book of World Records for smallest hands. Water pump replacements require pulling every single cog off the front of the engine because of a belt cover design that puts the back half of the cover BEHIND the cogs with no clearance holes. Transaxle tasks require disconnecting the differential cooler and fuel lines/filter in the rear, which on a car that hasnt been in a museum for the last 25 years usually results in fuel line replacement when the line gives before the frozen fittings. The cam cover allen bolts are recessed in the cam housing, accessible through tiny holes normally covered with plugs, and are perfectly spaced to hook your socket allen bits on the way out and send them tumbling horrifyingly into the dark recesses of the engine. The speed/reference sensors that so frequently result in rough running problems are on the top of the bellhousing snug against the firewall, and once again need wizard and/or record holder fingers to get at without spending three hours swearing, disassembling the top of the engine, and throwing parts at the walls. The bolts holding the turbo on cannot be taken out without disconnecting the steering linkage. The tacked-on turbo plumbing adds a plethora of water hoses that turn into a very clever Rubik's cube puzzle of arranging hose clamps so you can tighten them all when they inevitably start leaking after the first post-assembly trip down the road. To top all this off, the Haynes manual for the car is a flaming pile of useless **** with torque values frequently off by a factor of 2 or more, meaning that the saps that used it for their first fix turned an afternoon project into a three week downtime nightmare drilling hardened bolts out of aluminum somewhere.
A Porsche 951 problem usually meant prepwork consisting of parts, dinner to eat in the garage, a box of band-aids, a handy computer to frequently search with and scream at, and a rope and a chair in the corner as a last resort.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 11:07 AM
Grab an '04 WRX. They can be had less than a 944, and won't break down like a 944. Also likely faster...especially in the snow that's going to start falling in 6-9mos.
All true, but again he doesn't like/fit in/want to be one of the jackasses his age who drive tuner Subaru's.
Are 944's if properly maintained in the past unreliable?
He has spent a lot of time on forum's and insists the owners claim them to be reliable.
Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 30 2014, 11:09 AM
Mine wants one too. We've seen some real shit in our search though. That and he keeps spending his money rather than saving for it... 
Posted by: matthepcat Jun 30 2014, 11:10 AM
+1 for a suby. Although it has alot of performance potential in turbo form with a turbo back exhaust and tune......Not sure if fast is what you want a new driver to be able to go.
Grab an '04 WRX. They can be had less than a 944, and won't break down like a 944. Also likely faster...especially in the snow that's going to start falling in 6-9mos.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 11:10 AM
I love driving my 944 Turbo but...
Posted on Jalopnik in Response to the Question "What is the Hardest Car to Work On?"
Porsche 944T/951. It will test your supply of supposedly 'complete' metric tools. I have more cut up and shortened wrenches, allen sets, and sockets for this car than every other car that I have ever owned combined. Since it has a transaxle and torque tube, enjoy an 8 hour drivetrain pull for what used to be mundane things. (Boxster/911 guys, enjoy your drivetrain pull that is not spread out over the underside of an entire car and also attached to front suspension...). People that can thread the bolt for the dipstick tube in without loosening the intake are either wizards or are in the Guinness Book of World Records for smallest hands. Water pump replacements require pulling every single cog off the front of the engine because of a belt cover design that puts the back half of the cover BEHIND the cogs with no clearance holes. Transaxle tasks require disconnecting the differential cooler and fuel lines/filter in the rear, which on a car that hasnt been in a museum for the last 25 years usually results in fuel line replacement when the line gives before the frozen fittings. The cam cover allen bolts are recessed in the cam housing, accessible through tiny holes normally covered with plugs, and are perfectly spaced to hook your socket allen bits on the way out and send them tumbling horrifyingly into the dark recesses of the engine. The speed/reference sensors that so frequently result in rough running problems are on the top of the bellhousing snug against the firewall, and once again need wizard and/or record holder fingers to get at without spending three hours swearing, disassembling the top of the engine, and throwing parts at the walls. The bolts holding the turbo on cannot be taken out without disconnecting the steering linkage. The tacked-on turbo plumbing adds a plethora of water hoses that turn into a very clever Rubik's cube puzzle of arranging hose clamps so you can tighten them all when they inevitably start leaking after the first post-assembly trip down the road. To top all this off, the Haynes manual for the car is a flaming pile of useless **** with torque values frequently off by a factor of 2 or more, meaning that the saps that used it for their first fix turned an afternoon project into a three week downtime nightmare drilling hardened bolts out of aluminum somewhere.
A Porsche 951 problem usually meant prepwork consisting of parts, dinner to eat in the garage, a box of band-aids, a handy computer to frequently search with and scream at, and a rope and a chair in the corner as a last resort.
thanks a lot for the detailed response - this is the kind of ammo I need
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 11:13 AM
+1 for a suby. Although it has alot of performance potential in turbo form with a turbo back exhaust and tune......Not sure if fast is what you want a new driver to be able to go.
Grab an '04 WRX. They can be had less than a 944, and won't break down like a 944. Also likely faster...especially in the snow that's going to start falling in 6-9mos.
Yeah I want him to have fun, but not fast.
I agree this would be a better choice and he can easily avoid the tuner look.
No offence to you guys who have them, but there are a ton of DB's that drive them here and the Police take notice too, so it is a hard sell.
Posted by: championgt1 Jun 30 2014, 11:21 AM
IMO a $3000 944 is a bad idea. At that price it is going to need work.
Posted by: OU8AVW Jun 30 2014, 11:24 AM
1.5 weeks in.....
Shoulda listened to Zach.
Posted by: Mikey914 Jun 30 2014, 11:24 AM
A well cared for 944 NA can be found ini that range. The only really big deal is the belts. They don't go really fast, but have the coolness of a Porsche. Tell him that unless he races it no one will know it's not really that fast. A stock NA is just a little faster than a 2.0 stock 914.
That will keep him from racing.
The motor is basically a big in line 4' and Maintenon is not that bad. I've done timing belts, and the oil water exchange seal, not really a big deal. Would make for some good father son projects.
Of course the first thing he will want to do is turbo it. To do this it's actually cheaper to buy the turbo. So tell him to enjoy it and save his cash. They can be dependable daily drivers. I'm currently driving an 86 951.
Posted by: d914 Jun 30 2014, 11:52 AM
Too bad I'm too far away, just put my wrx wagon up for sale ,, awd , all services done, I had my son in it and it handle Atlanta monsoons like no ones business.. 155k and going strong.. Find a wagon that nobody has played with. Little torque in the low end and easy to drive.. Does get fast when you spool it up though.
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jun 30 2014, 11:54 AM
The most expensive Porsche you can buy is the inexpensive one.
Look for earlier RX7's. The styling is pretty close and much fewer headaches. Some nice ones on bringatrailer in recent months.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 12:03 PM
A well cared for 944 NA can be found ini that range. The only really big deal is the belts. They don't go really fast, but have the coolness of a Porsche. Tell him that unless he races it no one will know it's not really that fast. A stock NA is just a little faster than a 2.0 stock 914.
That will keep him from racing.
The motor is basically a big in line 4' and Maintenon is not that bad. I've done timing belts, and the oil water exchange seal, not really a big deal. Would make for some good father son projects.
Of course the first thing he will want to do is turbo it. To do this it's actually cheaper to buy the turbo. So tell him to enjoy it and save his cash. They can be dependable daily drivers. I'm currently driving an 86 951.
He is ok with a NA, this turbo happened to come up close by so we are going to look.
I would prefer him to have an NA regarldess of make or model.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 12:10 PM
The most expensive Porsche you can buy is the inexpensive one.
Look for earlier RX7's. The styling is pretty close and much fewer headaches. Some nice ones on bringatrailer in recent months.
Possible I could push him that way, but he considers them a Japanese copy.
That said, I'd rather push him into something front wheel drive (or AWD) as he has zero experience driving in snow or slippery conditions.
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 30 2014, 12:24 PM
if the WRX is priced right and no looming services it would be worth one way tickets and a father and son speed run home. i bought a pretty clean 97 legacy outback wagon last year and couldn't be happier with it. just under 182k when i bought it and it had a COMPLETE cooling system replacement, heads cleaned up and new studs (among other work), to the tune of $1974.62 7 months prior to the purchase. an old water tank fit in the back, disc brakes on all 4, AWD, automatic (first i've EVER owned), airbags, comfy. runs great and handles very well for what i consider a good sized car.
Posted by: jasons Jun 30 2014, 12:59 PM
As a former 944S2 owner that endured both a failed timing belt and a failed clutch, I would never own one of those cars again. I will never own a water cooled Porsche for that matter. My kid has a better chance of getting a Hemi Cuda when he is of age than any 944. They are fun cars to drive, but get on the wrong side of one and you will find yourself in a dark place with an empty wallet.
Posted by: jmill Jun 30 2014, 01:23 PM
I had a 924S, a 944 N/A in 924 clothing. They can be had cheaper than the 944 N/A. Corners like it's on rails. 0-60 times stink but the car comes alive 60-100.
Tons of electrical gremlins. I must have fixed the sunroof and rear trunk electrical 15 times. Belt replacement is a must after 50K. Any 944 or 924S owner should have paperwork to prove it. Trans is a funky arrangement that you don't want to change a clutch on. Parts aren't the easiest or cheapest to get (that was 6 years ago). Besides that it was a good car.
Is he opposed to a 924? Somewhat different animal with junkyard parts cheaper and more available.
I bought my 16 year old son a Honda Civic.
Posted by: Krieger Jun 30 2014, 01:36 PM
Very timely discussion. I think my 16 yo wants one of these...
Posted by: 3d914 Jun 30 2014, 01:37 PM
Are 944's if properly maintained in the past unreliable?
He has spent a lot of time on forum's and insists the owners claim them to be reliable.
scott, as others indicated, the 944/924S can be reliable - but must be purchased with care. I maintained a 924s for my son during his early college years. Belts, etc are typical issues. The single biggest issue is make sure what you buy has had the clutch done recently. This is very expensive to have done by someone else and the most frustrating job you can attempt to do yourself.
Other than that they can function well as a daily driver. Good luck.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 01:46 PM
As a former 944S2 owner that endured both a failed timing belt and a failed clutch, I would never own one of those cars again. I will never own a water cooled Porsche for that matter. My kid has a better chance of getting a Hemi Cuda when he is of age than any 944. They are fun cars to drive, but get on the wrong side of one and you will find yourself in a dark place with an empty wallet.
In theory no, but for $3k we haven't seen one that has enough going for it to make it more desirable.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 30 2014, 02:19 PM
A 944 for the kid you describe? Are you nuts? NO WAY would I do that for/to my kid, or anyone else's, either! Look, I worked on them from when they were new until they went away, and saw them fall by the wayside as people bailed on 'em or scrapped 'em. A 4 wheeled money pit. Great handling, fun to drive, but EXPENSIVE to own. For a typical driver, figure $3-4K every 40K miles, if the work's done by a shop. Add $1500-2000 if it needs a clutch.
The Cap'n
Posted by: Cuda911 Jun 30 2014, 02:27 PM
Look also on the Rennlist forum, 944 subforum. As much as the 944 guys love their cars, they definitely take some significant ongoing repair costs. Especially one in the 3K range. I almost bought a 944 earlier this year, but went with the 914 instead. Of course, it isn't a DD.
Posted by: Old Yella Jun 30 2014, 02:41 PM
ouch
1.5 weeks in.....
Shoulda listened to Zach.
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Posted by: Old Yella Jun 30 2014, 02:49 PM
ouch
1.5 weeks in.....
Shoulda listened to Zach.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 02:56 PM
Thanks Cap'n I knew you would state it like it is.
Thanks Cuda911 for what is likely a more realistic forum for him to check.
I looked around at some Subies, again I don't really want him in a turbo, but found some nice Impreza 2.5 RS cars in his price range and nearby - how are they?
Conversely I know if we start talking AWD he will lean to an Audi A4, but my understanding is their electrical systems don't age well - is that true? What else?
I'm trying to help him get started on his own with a car he likes drivng and looking at, but that is reliable, practical and safe too.
I really appreciate the input! Keep it coming, he's a good kid, but is as thick headed and stuborm as I am so I have my work cut out for me! 
Posted by: KELTY360 Jun 30 2014, 02:57 PM
Might look at a Subaru SVX. Doesn't look like a copy of anything, good ones available in that price range, many have awd. Biggest reliability factor is the automatic tranmission; if it's been replaced you're good to go.
Posted by: thompson-mfr Jun 30 2014, 02:59 PM
I just sold my 944 $2K and it was a great DD. 84 non turbo easy to work on. The parts I replaced were cheap and there are a ton on Craiglist for parts (in Oregon). Over here $3K should get you a good reliable car. I paid $1500 for mine and had very few issues. The timing belt is supposed to be replaced every 30K miles and it is an interference engine, so it must be done. I think 944's are very under rated for as comfortable and sporty as they are. Mine cornered amazing and had good power 150 hp 2700 lb car.
If your Son wants to learn how to work on cars it could be a good first car. If he doesn't have the mechanic itch buy him a Honda or Toyota.
Posted by: Ferg Jun 30 2014, 03:34 PM
For 3k I'd look at the following...
Miata
SVT Focus
Protege5
Posted by: Mr. Olympic Blue 2 You Jun 30 2014, 03:40 PM
I had a 944 in my early 20's when they were fairly new..once they aquire some miles they do get very expensive to maintain ( although it did do pretty well in the wintry mountain passes.) If you are concerned with the local authorities stay away from guards red..my last ticket was 17?yrs ago and was a 39 in a 35..no, that wasn't the cop being nice to me..it was for going 39 in a 35. 
If you can get a 2.5 RS for his budget of 3K- I'd lean the young lad with the champagne taste/beer budget that direction. In the Seattle area they are 6-10K for a nice car and have a cult following. AWD, light, better torque than the 944 and less $ to maintain. To find an un abused WRX is next to impossible and I think you would find the insurance eye opening.
Whatever he chooses I hope he gets involved in a local car club and gets a chance to try auto-x or a high performance driving clinic.. Great way to sew his speed oats and learn car control that could help him on a daily commute!
I applaud your involvement in your sons search- you remind me of my dad and I when I was a teen. My father is still very involved with my "car life" but I remember those early years to this day.
Best of luck in whatever he decides.
Andrew
Posted by: edwin Jun 30 2014, 05:54 PM
Long shot but how about a Saab 900. Classic shape are very reliable and option of turbo to keep him thinking its fast. It's fwd to keep you happy. Really strong body if the worst ever happens. And it will fit anything he can think of in the back
Did I mention how cheap they are?
Posted by: SKL1 Jun 30 2014, 06:04 PM
I'd vote for a Miata as well. Raced Spec Miata for several years and those cars can take a ton of abuse.
Sure they're not that fast but have a great gearbox and won't cost a ton to maintain...
Posted by: walterolin Jun 30 2014, 06:07 PM
The real issue here is insurance. You should sit down with your agent before you do anything, and ask about the numbers for a young male for each of the cars under discussion. Then for a young male with one ticket. Two tickets and he is uninsurable. And this is only for liability, collision is probably out of the question.
I suspect your agent will laugh when you say 16 yo male and Porsche in the same sentence.
Insurance companies classify certain cars as "hot" cars, and you may not be able to buy coverage for a young man at any price.
My son at 16 had to settle for a high mileage Mazda GLC, liability only.
Posted by: Drums66 Jun 30 2014, 06:35 PM
...My choices,based on the young man's budget.quality
& reliability,
...Saab,Volvo,Ford Focus 
(poster above has a good starting point)
Posted by: d914 Jun 30 2014, 06:41 PM
2.5's non turbo's have some issues with head gaskets otherwise good cars. The 2.0 turbo no such issue??? But then again a ticket grabber!
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jun 30 2014, 07:05 PM
Long shot but how about a Saab 900. Classic shape are very reliable and option of turbo to keep him thinking its fast. It's fwd to keep you happy. Really strong body if the worst ever happens. And it will fit anything he can think of in the back
Did I mention how cheap they are?
Interesting car - how is parts availability?
Posted by: hot_shoe914 Jun 30 2014, 08:27 PM
The Miata is the way to go. Priced in the right range, great gas mileage, handle grat, not real fast and a timiming belt is under 25.00. Not hard to work on either.
Posted by: Philip W. Jun 30 2014, 09:20 PM
Long shot but how about a Saab 900. Classic shape are very reliable and option of turbo to keep him thinking its fast. It's fwd to keep you happy. Really strong body if the worst ever happens. And it will fit anything he can think of in the back
Did I mention how cheap they are?
Interesting car - how is parts availability?
Scott, we had a '95 Saab 900S convertible bought it for my son, about 2008, had about 100k miles on it , bought for $2500. ran great, never had an issue. averaged about 25 mpg combined- when he drove it. when I drove it, about 23
. I Put tires and brakes on it, did those myself, also had the tensioner pully bearing seize up, pulled into the autozone parking lot just in time, replaced that and the belt for under $50 in the parking lot. We had the car for 4 year and really should have kept it, except that I was offered $4500 for it and took the cash. I would get another one for sure.
Posted by: Wdunster Jun 30 2014, 09:33 PM
Both my sons started out on 944's. My oldest had a 87"s" and moved up to a 951. Which I don't recommend for a teenager drive one and see what third gear is like on full boost! My youngest has a 86 turbo with a n/a engine. Both were fantastic cars. Most people who dislike them are afraid of the timing belts...so on and so forth. To this point neither car has had any major issues and all work has been done to beautify. There are many outlets for parts at affordable prices.
I highly recommend a 944 for a first car! Don't be scared.
Bill
Posted by: Hank914 Jun 30 2014, 09:57 PM
...My choices,based on the young man's budget.quality
& reliability,
...Saab,Volvo,Ford Focus
(poster above has a good starting point)Everybody has great advice for dad, I happen to like the above best.
Be the practical dad for advice, but also let the kid make his own choice and live with it.
I bought a TR6 right out of high school... In 12 months, $1000 and 500 miles, it was one the road for about 8 weeks. Sucked up so much of my money I had to go to college in my home town, and live at home the first semester (freshman loser!) instead of the college I really wanted to go to. Huge mistake for me, but I learned. In fact, I learned so well that 35 years later I bought a used Miata and drove it for 12 months and 19,000 miles and sold it for $500 more than I paid for it, with only oil change costs.
Live and learn... And then learn to live with it.
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jun 30 2014, 10:23 PM
Not a lot of driving experience, not a lot of money.
Sounds like a good time to teach the young man a lesson about living within your means and your abilities. Sure, it would be really cool to have a Porsche for your first car but safety features and reliability are more important at this stage in life. Maybe after he has experienced his first fender bender, paid a few repair bills, etc. he can decide if he really wants to still have a Porsche.
My own kid always tells me about the exotic vehicles that "I should buy for him". I respond that it sounds really cool and I would love to drive it when he gets a job and pays for it with his own $$$.
Posted by: 914_teener Jun 30 2014, 11:00 PM
Not a lot of driving experience, not a lot of money.
Sounds like a good time to teach the young man a lesson about living within your means and your abilities. Sure, it would be really cool to have a Porsche for your first car but safety features and reliability are more important at this stage in life. Maybe after he has experienced his first fender bender, paid a few repair bills, etc. he can decide if he really wants to still have a Porsche.
My own kid always tells me about the exotic vehicles that "I should buy for him". I respond that it sounds really cool and I would love to drive it when he gets a job and pays for it with his own $$$.
As a Dad of three boys....this is the best advice I have read thus far.
Posted by: Cuda911 Jun 30 2014, 11:13 PM
I did some research for ya.... pretty sure I found the ideal car for your boy:
.
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Posted by: rdauenhauer Jun 30 2014, 11:49 PM
Your all gonna laugh but I just picked up this little beaut for a few hundred $
my 16yr old (daughter) loves it!
1.3L of screaming fury....
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Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 1 2014, 07:02 AM
Not a lot of driving experience, not a lot of money.
Sounds like a good time to teach the young man a lesson about living within your means and your abilities. Sure, it would be really cool to have a Porsche for your first car but safety features and reliability are more important at this stage in life. Maybe after he has experienced his first fender bender, paid a few repair bills, etc. he can decide if he really wants to still have a Porsche.
My own kid always tells me about the exotic vehicles that "I should buy for him". I respond that it sounds really cool and I would love to drive it when he gets a job and pays for it with his own $$$.
As a Dad of three boys....this is the best advice I have read thus far.
Yeah this is where I'm coming from and why I started the topic.
That said I think it not impossible to find a 944 that is cheap and reliable, but it is a big gamble.
I also agree with those who say he has to make his choice and live with it, but that will mean that I end up under the car more than I want and that he misses work which is the bigger issue to me.
Cuda911 - now you are thinking like him!
Luckily the Turbo sold before we could look at it!
I have found some Subarus and Toyotas in the area to look at and may see what is around in a Saab.
I also think a Focus SVT would be good, but he doesn't want the same car as his sis.
Thanks, additional opinions are still welcome and I'll let you know where we end up!
Posted by: jrrhdmust Jul 1 2014, 07:11 AM
I had a 1987 924 with the bigger 944 engine. It was a great car, but not reliable. Probably once a month it would go down for something. All the shops wanted crazy money to fix it, and they had stacks of 944s so I was not confident in their abilities. Changing the timing belts and balance shaft belts was easy. You do need a special tool to tension them.
My car ended up going down for over a month, when the splice went bad that provides power to the fuel injectors. That was a bugger to find.
Posted by: CptTripps Jul 1 2014, 07:26 AM
Just thought of this: I have a 2005 Saab 9-2x (Saabaru) for sale that needs a little work. It's a 4-cyl....turbo....AWD...all the options. Cooler than a WRX, with the same upgrade path. It's also under $5K. PM me if you're interested.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 1 2014, 08:00 AM
Just thought of this: I have a 2005 Saab 9-2x (Saabaru) for sale that needs a little work. It's a 4-cyl....turbo....AWD...all the options. Cooler than a WRX, with the same upgrade path. It's also under $5K. PM me if you're interested.
Nice looking car, I'll show him the pic - thanks.
Posted by: ripper911 Jul 1 2014, 08:53 AM
What about a 914?
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jul 1 2014, 10:16 AM
Perfect car for the newly licensed driver. He will never get a ticket. :-)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-240-D-1982-mercedes-240D-can-run-on-vegetable-oil-at-a-switch-of-button-/121371307010?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c424b2c02&item=121371307010&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Posted by: matthepcat Jul 1 2014, 11:03 AM
Great car. Flys under the cop radar....even with a healthy turbo back exhaust and tune.
My 06 WRX wagon is at 101,000 and has been flawless (which is the same as the 9-2x but with the 2.5L engine)
Just thought of this: I have a 2005 Saab 9-2x (Saabaru) for sale that needs a little work. It's a 4-cyl....turbo....AWD...all the options. Cooler than a WRX, with the same upgrade path. It's also under $5K. PM me if you're interested.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 1 2014, 12:59 PM
How are the Saab 9-3's?
Posted by: 3d914 Jul 1 2014, 01:51 PM
What about a 914?
ripper, 914's don't make good first vehicles for a driver without a garage to do repairs or a second car as a backup. My son thought otherwise (against my advice) and guess where his sits now - in my driveway!
Posted by: r_towle Jul 1 2014, 07:12 PM
Axel had an aircooled beetle and a 924s
abel started on a 914
Arlo had a jeep
Of all of them, the 924s was the most modern, pretty simple to fix and just kept going and going......all sorts of little problems, but nothing that you would be scared about fixing or could not handle.....even a super cheap one.
I would suggest you don't get him a turbo....they are really quick, and turbos are not cheap to replace....
944 is a decent first car, if you do the timing belt ( not rocket science) the rest is standard car stuff, vw electronics and switches etc...
Rich
Posted by: mgp4591 Jul 1 2014, 07:36 PM
Hmmm... newer driver, New England winters, sketchy conditions. I'd opt for a Subaru also. Preferably one with a 2.2 or an upgraded 2.5 (with the newer head gaskets) Pretty much bulletproof platform, good and safe plus all wheel drive for the nasty stuff. Relatively cheap to fix and plenty of used parts everywhere. It's been my DD for years and I've pushed snow with the front bumper all the way up the canyon when I'm working at Snowbird without a problem. A 2000 Impreza with a manual is a blast to drift in when the snow is deep too- give him some experience in full throttle opposite lock control!
Posted by: scotty b Jul 1 2014, 08:34 PM
Mercedes 300 T.D.
Volvo 850 or S70, pre '99's
Bulletproof cars. I've personally worked on 300 T.D.'s with well over 500,000 and my 98 S70 will hit 326,000 by the end of the week with the steering rack being the most major repair done, and that was at 231,000 
Volvo's biggest issue is the front suspension is a shit design that wears out prematurely. and it's FWD 
Posted by: r_towle Jul 1 2014, 08:43 PM
Mercedes 300 T.D.
Volvo 850 or S70, pre '99's
Bulletproof cars. I've personally worked on 300 T.D.'s with well over 500,000 and my 98 S70 will hit 326,000 by the end of the week with the steering rack being the most major repair done, and that was at 231,000
Volvo's biggest issue is the front suspension is a shit design that wears out prematurely. and it's FWD Prematurely...
Monthly...or at least annually.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 2 2014, 06:45 AM
So the Turbo one was sold, but he found another NA one down in Mass.
Too many young DB's in the area that have spoiled any subaru or Honda for him (which I get).
Pretty much shot down everything I showed him
Two last shots here as were are going to look at the red NA 944 on Sunday.
1) I am going to insist we at least drive some of the cars he is shooting down before I will take him to the 944.
2) He does like Mini's, wants a green one and I have fouind one near by, but it will likely cost ME a grand (which I have been holding in reserve assuming whatever he gets would need it).
Rich knows us and I agree that if we at least get a decent 944 it might not be the end of the world....
Posted by: jasons Jul 2 2014, 08:28 AM
944 is a decent first car, if you do the timing belt ( not rocket science) the rest is standard car stuff, vw electronics and switches etc...
This sounds like the 914 myths people used to believe. You remember, the one where they're just VW's? Gentle reminder, those parts come with Porsche part numbers, are distributed by Porsche in Porsche boxes, and as a result come with Porsche price tags.
Yes, the timing belt job is not hard. But, by the book, it requires a $600 special tool to tension the belt correctly. You can roll the dice on other ways to tension the belt if you can stomach a little more risk. And where Japanese belts will easily go 80k miles, the 944 belts should be replaced at around 35k miles to be safe.
The clutch job on the other hand... This will test every trick you have ever learned working on cars. It will test every tool you have, and it will ruin the clothes you are wearing. Porsche book time on the clutch is around 16 hours, add 8 more for the home mechanic. If you take that to the professional mechanic, multiply 16 X $100+/hour and add parts and while-yer-intheres. I can only imagine how many nice $4000 944's are sitting in junk yards now because someone didn't want to foot that bill.
I may sound alarmist, but my 944 experience was not great. And I bought the car right. It came with a stack of 1 owner records for around 10 years detailing every belt and clutch from a certified Porsche mechanic. I was well within the limits of both and they still failed. I can't predict what someone else's 944 experience would be. But, I can tell you the stakes are raised with those cars.
The unfortunate paradox of the 944 is, Porsche nailed the body. They are still gorgeous, and zinc dipped so they don't rust. But a blown clutch will salvage the car.
If you can't get away from the cool euro car thing, you might consider an E36 M3 or 3 series coupe.
Posted by: jasons Jul 2 2014, 09:06 AM
It looks like Arnworx now has a viable alternative belt tension tool. Arnnworx is the goto place for your 944 belt job tools. For tensioning you used to either need the Porsche $600 tool, or a cheap little thing called a Cricket that barely works.
If you end up with a 944, this is his complete belt job tool kit which is pretty much mandatory for the belt job.
http://www.arnnworx.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=188#.U7QfA5RdUVA
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 2 2014, 09:43 AM
If you can't get away from the cool euro car thing, you might consider an E36 M3 or 3 series coupe.
Yeah it is a Euro car thing with him, but I am trying to get him in a front or AWD as our winters are pretty severe at times.
Anybody have experience with NA Mini Coopers? Seems like my only hope of steering him away from the 944.
Posted by: jasons Jul 2 2014, 10:49 AM
You do realize the 944 is RWD right?
Posted by: scotty b Jul 2 2014, 10:58 AM
my 944's have been one of the best non-4wd vehicles I have had in the snow, and around here our snow is more of an ice pack. I have numerous times out driven the average FWD car in bad conditions. Steering wheels and drive wheels on opposite ends of the car which IMHO is a far better bet than having your drive and steering wheels as one in the same.
In a nutshell, if you buy one, do the water pump and belts right off the bat and check on the belt at around 2500 miles, then check them periodically after that. Would be a good idea to do the oil cooler seal while you're in there the first time. That is one of the biggest PITA jobs on the car bar none. I've done 3 clutches in a gravel driveway by myself and 2 on a lift with help. No it's not fun, but it isn't a reason to scrap an otherwise decent car. And FWIW a very mildly setup 944 will out handle a 914 or 911 any day 
flame on
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 2 2014, 11:09 AM
You do realize the 944 is RWD right?
Of course I do, but it has a weight distribution much closer to 50:50 than most RWD and a young 944 owner at a car show told him it was not bad in the winter with winter tires.
I was doing ok until he heard that
What I tell him that he doesn't want to hear =
What strangers tell him that he wants to hear =
Posted by: mgp4591 Jul 2 2014, 11:10 AM
my 944's have been one of the best non-4wd vehicles I have had in the snow, and around here our snow is more of an ice pack. I have numerous times out driven the average FWD car in bad conditions. Steering wheels and drive wheels on opposite ends of the car which IMHO is a far better bet than having your drive and steering wheels as one in the same.
In a nutshell, if you buy one, do the water pump and belts right off the bat and check on the belt at around 2500 miles, then check them periodically after that. Would be a good idea to do the oil cooler seal while you're in there the first time. That is one of the biggest PITA jobs on the car bar none. I've done 3 clutches in a gravel driveway by myself and 2 on a lift with help. No it's not fun, but it isn't a reason to scrap an otherwise decent car. And FWIW a very mildly setup 944 will out handle a 914 or 911 any day
flame onI agree so far as power and steering on the same axle unless you're very careful (and talented) but my all wheel drive kicks out in back first like a rwd and is very controllable. So far as your 944 outdriving the fwd cars, it's probably due to your skill and not the others' drivetrain setup. I learned winter driving in Md. and continue with those skills in Utah and it sure is fun when the little Subie outperforms the big boys in their lifted 4x4s- you know, the guys who wear the Affliction t-shirts and the white sunglasses...
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 2 2014, 11:12 AM
i went shopping/tire kicking with a friend that thinks he wants a used mini. used retail is quite high, imho, and you need to watch what year you buy. back seat leg room is nonexistent. sitting in one i found the driving position odd to say the least.
Posted by: scotty b Jul 2 2014, 11:17 AM
Dr. Evil can school you on Mini's. I've got to say I was really impressed when he brought his down. Fist time I had been in one. I see how they can be addictive
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 2 2014, 11:34 AM
I have a 2012 MINI Cooper (non-S). You won't find a 2nd-gen (2007-2013) MINI that you would want to drive for $5K.
The 1st-gen ones have problems with:
- Strut towers mushrooming
- Spark plugs staying in the heads
- CVTs (continuously-variable transmission; the auto gearbox for some years)
- 5-speed transmissions
The plugs seem to be hit-and-miss. The others are things that will go wrong at some point. Everything but the CVT is fixable for some amount of money and hassle.
--DD
Posted by: jasons Jul 2 2014, 12:28 PM
I've done 3 clutches in a gravel driveway by myself and 2 on a lift with help. No it's not fun, but it isn't a reason to scrap an otherwise decent car. And FWIW a very mildly setup 944 will out handle a 914 or 911 any day
flame onI agree it's no reason to scrap one. But I can only imagine how many people bought the $3k 944 they've wanted since they watched Jake drive one in 16 Candles find themselves on the wrong end of a clutch replacement estimate.
FWIW, the best non 4x4 snow car I had was a 74 Beetle. It plowed through everything.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 2 2014, 12:30 PM
I have a 2012 MINI Cooper (non-S). You won't find a 2nd-gen (2007-2013) MINI that you would want to drive for $5K.
The 1st-gen ones have problems with:
- Strut towers mushrooming
- Spark plugs staying in the heads
- CVTs (continuously-variable transmission; the auto gearbox for some years)
- 5-speed transmissions
The plugs seem to be hit-and-miss. The others are things that will go wrong at some point. Everything but the CVT is fixable for some amount of money and hassle.
--DD
Thanks Dave,
I'm sure you are correct - I found a 2004 and 2006 for under $5k with the 5 speed.
The mushrooming shock towers are easy enough to detect and I believe the fix is easy too.
Hadn't heard about the spark plugs.
I did see where synchros were not available for the 5 speed requiring a new box (or used I suppose).
I wouldn't buy a CVT in anything.
So knowing what you do, would you drive a mid-eighties 944 or an 8 -10 year old Mini, non-S, 5-speed?
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 2 2014, 12:38 PM
This one is in a color he likes and the mileage is reasonable:
http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4521013251.html
This one is high mileage, but I lived around the corner from it and have seen the car and it was adult driven, has to be highway miles to put 26.5k/year and (knowing the neighborhood) maintained by somebody with money.
http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4507642646.html
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 2 2014, 12:59 PM
IME, stuck spark plugs are the result of believing the BS sales pitch that they need to be changed at 50, 60, 75, 100K (take your pick) miles. Change them at 40K max, use antisieze.
The Cap'n
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 2 2014, 01:27 PM
So knowing what you do, would you drive a mid-eighties 944 or an 8 -10 year old Mini, non-S, 5-speed?
MINI. But I am somewhat irrationally biased against 944s...
IME, stuck spark plugs are the result of believing the BS sales pitch that they need to be changed at 50, 60, 75, 100K (take your pick) miles.
The problem with the 1st-gen MINI plugs is the opposite. They sometimes like to depart the head without human intervention. We've had at least one member on here experience this first-hand, but I don't remember who it was.
Could be improper torque or other installation issues, of course. It sounds like it's not common, but it's less rare than on most cars.
--DD
Posted by: steuspeed Jul 2 2014, 04:01 PM
Look for a 2006 mini base model. The last year of the "new" mini. The trans was upgraded to the Getrag. Fixed that problem. The S model had mushroom strut towers caused by hard run flat tires on larger wheel. The base got 36mpg observed in R&T. No other car tested in that era by them got higher fuel mileage except the Prius 40. Nothing else even in the 30s. Upgrades are available for exhaust and suspension etc. You could hop it up a little if you wanted. Look for one without the moonroof for more weight savings.
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jul 3 2014, 06:21 AM
I'll probably take a beating for this but the 1988's were actually quite good.
http://bringatrailer.com/2014/07/02/one-owner-56k-mile-1988-pontiac-fiero-formula/
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 3 2014, 06:59 AM
I'll probably take a beating for this but the 1988's were actually quite good.
http://bringatrailer.com/2014/07/02/one-owner-56k-mile-1988-pontiac-fiero-formula/
I know these cars a bit. The 88 was the best, but not enough to save the car.
Easier steering, 5 speed, I can't remember what else...
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 3 2014, 07:05 AM
Look for a 2006 mini base model. The last year of the "new" mini. The trans was upgraded to the Getrag. Fixed that problem. The S model had mushroom strut towers caused by hard run flat tires on larger wheel. The base got 36mpg observed in R&T. No other car tested in that era by them got higher fuel mileage except the Prius 40. Nothing else even in the 30s. Upgrades are available for exhaust and suspension etc. You could hop it up a little if you wanted. Look for one without the moonroof for more weight savings.
The high mileage one I listed above is a 2006. Has the sunroof but looks like a nice car.
I should have paid more attention when he was hot on these cars as he is now on a 944 crusade and I don't think I can stop him!
The one he found has recent everything - water pump, timing belt, clutch, etc., etc., etc....
I think it is this one:
http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4542590914.html
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 3 2014, 07:11 AM
let him run with the big dogs if he insists on his 'dream' car. if the car starts to go south practice some tough love. as in 'your car, your nickel'. i didn't even own a car until i was 21.
Posted by: jmill Jul 3 2014, 07:14 AM
Lift up battery and check for rust. Most common rust area. Its the 944 hell hole.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 3 2014, 07:14 AM
let him run with the big dogs if he insists on his 'dream' car. if the car starts to go south practice some tough love. as in 'your car, your nickel'. i didn't even own a car until i was 21.
Yeah that is kind of where I'm at.
I can't win - if I insist on another car and it turns into a problem it will be my fault.
I don't know what discussions he has had as a far as price, right now this car is $1500 above what I believe we could swing.
Posted by: computers4kids Jul 3 2014, 11:40 AM
I had a 924t when I was a kid and just loved it, but had a reality check when I got the first $1000 repair bill-yikes!!! And that was early 90's dollars--too much for a kid going to school and trying to find his way.
Lots of great advice, but here's another idea. Get him a car that would have a great donor motor for one of us 
When we helped our third son get a car, we thought we were being smart putting in some extra dollars so he would have a nice reliable car when going to school. Three months after getting the car he was reaching for a cd and plowed into a dumpster totaling the car---thankfully he was alright. There's more than one way for that dream car to end up in a salvage yard. Buy a safe and reliable car.
Posted by: d914 Jul 3 2014, 12:46 PM
'89 one off year with 2.7.. some special parts??
Posted by: Mr. Olympic Blue 2 You Jul 3 2014, 01:32 PM
Automatic? Well, he won't have to worry about the infamous clutch job.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 3 2014, 03:05 PM
See if you can steer him to a Corolla, or the Lexus version thereof. At least you probably won't have to f**k with it every month that way...
--DD
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 3 2014, 06:41 PM
Automatic? Well, he won't have to worry about the infamous clutch job.
i had the wrong car - it's this one:
http://southcoast.craigslist.org/cto/4501530744.html
Posted by: r_towle Jul 3 2014, 09:08 PM
Offer 2k in cash.
Arrive with a trailer ready to take it on the spot.
Show him the money.
Posted by: Spoke Jul 3 2014, 11:08 PM
In general, one's DD must be reliable. I wouldn't consider any older Porsche to be reliable enough for a DD. Especially if the young driver isn't mechanically inclined.
Above and beyond that, living here in the NE I wouldn't consider any non-AWD vehicle and you're more NE than I. All 4 of us have AWD vehicles: 2 Audi A4's, a Volvo S60, and BMW 328xi. My kids and I have also owned several older Audi's and Subaru Legacy's.
Lastly I don't think I would want my young son or daughter to have a car with excessive power. Kids are idiots behind the wheel and so are their friends.
Kids want everything and they want it now. Buy a car that will get him from point A to point B reliably and cheaply. Chances are he'll bounce the car off a few things as his driving skills improve. My oldest daughter hit everything she could find when she first started driving.
Posted by: ripper911 Jul 4 2014, 06:18 AM
I've always told people that an old beetle is the perfect car to learn to drive with. They have low power, but enough to keep things interesting depending on how you drive it. The shifting and clutch are forgiving. They handle well enough to build confidence in your abilities, but don't have limits that'll temp you to push it to the very edge before you're comfortable doing so. They are easy to learn to work on. They can handle snow and ice like nobody's business.
But, good examples are getting rare and prices are rising.
I started with beetles, and I am glad that I did.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 4 2014, 07:23 AM
I've always told people that an old beetle is the perfect car to learn to drive with. They have low power, but enough to keep things interesting depending on how you drive it. The shifting and clutch are forgiving. They handle well enough to build confidence in your abilities, but don't have limits that'll temp you to push it to the very edge before you're comfortable doing so. They are easy to learn to work on. They can handle snow and ice like nobody's business.
But, good examples are getting rare and prices are rising.
I started with beetles, and I am glad that I did.
Me too!
I started with a 68 sunroof, but owned a 66, 67, another 68 and a 69 Ghia.
Unfortunately those days are gone....
Posted by: porsche_dreamer Jul 4 2014, 08:34 AM
The 944 is a great car. I love driving mine! Just keeping in mind a 30 year old car is always gonna need maintenance. Unfortunately the more I drive it the more repairs I have to do. At this point I'm working on it more than I drive it. Which is ok for me. Using it as a daily would be awesome and for me not possible. If you can find a very well sorted car with a lot of records go for it.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 4 2014, 09:18 AM
Offer 2k in cash.
Arrive with a trailer ready to take it on the spot.
Show him the money.
You play hardball Rich!
Unfortunately we don' have a car trailer, but we'll see what we can do!
Posted by: r_towle Jul 4 2014, 09:23 AM
If you have a tow rig, I have a trailer you can use.
2k....cash in hand, trailer right there....
I suspect he is already sick of the tire kickers.....and I get that car owes him nothing except more repair bills.
Axel drove a 924s year round.
Good snow tires and a brain is all he will need.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jul 4 2014, 10:22 AM
I like Kev's approach. I inherited my dad's 1984 Thunderbird in high school, which was left out in the weeds to die. But I insisted, and my dad probably thought it would be cool if I drove his old car too.
It was a lot of work and I royaly screwed that car up after I got it running. But I learned what to do and what NOT to do on my first car. It made it almost all the way through college and really never gave me any big issues. Looking back, I appreciated the "tough love" that I got and the fact that my dad never gave in when it was my fault. Likely this car will be the same way.
The only concern I have for you is that it is indeed a performance car and will be treated as such. Perhaps it might not be a bad idea, once you guys get the car and get it running, to do an autocross or driving school with it? It'll teach him that speed requires skill and discipline... and only belongs on the track. That alone will put him light years ahead of his buddies in suped up Hondas.
Clearly lay out the known issues with these cars - the clutch job, timing belt, electronics, price of parts, etc. Have him do some research of his own at that point. If he still wants it, then pull the trigger, but don't give in when things need to be replaced. He'll be better off years down the road.
Good luck!
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jul 4 2014, 04:31 PM
Tough love on the breakdowns could work but it sounds like he will be depending on whatever car he buys to get to work and other things that are not optional while the car sits on ramps.
In my younger days, I convinced my parents to buy me a Triumph Spitfire. It was actually a nice car with low mileage but still a Triumph and was before I did much wrenching on my own. Within three months it made as many costly trips to the mechanic. Having a sports car was suddenly not so cool when you could not drive it and were spending all your date and party money on repairs. You mean I still have to pay insurance even though it has been sitting for a month waiting on a repair?
Within 6 months, all on my own, I sold it and went to the complete other extreme by purchasing a diesel rabbit. The rabbit served me for several years with only routine maintenance and I then sold it for $500 more than I paid for it.
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 4 2014, 09:56 PM
I grew up driving a '74 Beetle as my first car and it was a great learning experience.
I'm not sure it's as viable today in the land of SUV's and people who can't drive worth a shit though. I'd emphasize safety, economy and reliability over a fun one for a first vehicle. Still, I like the idea of having a car like a 944 and I'd be willing to try it out
as long as he is willing to learn how to work on the car and be responsible for it.
Posted by: euro911 Jul 5 2014, 02:21 AM
Back in the late 80's, I bought an' 83 Subaru wagon to keep up at our mountain cabin. We ended up giving it to our nephew when he decided to move up to Idaho in the late 90's. Even though it was 4WD, he still managed to crash it a few times before he finally killed it.
Teenager's first cars typically don't last very long, no matter what they are. I would try to convince him to grab something a little more economical (maintenance-wise) for his first car. What happened with the Celica you were thinking about? 
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 5 2014, 06:45 AM
whatever he ends up with we already have a family membership to the Sports Car Club of NH for AX and his mechanical skills will have to improve.
I am still pushing for a Mini, Celica or Focus SVT, but could only get him to look at the Minis today before looking at the 944 tomorrow.
Thanks everyone!
Posted by: Porschef Jul 5 2014, 07:44 AM
I looked at an S on a dealer lot in California circa 1991. It was beautiful, maroon with a tan interior, sunroof etc., mmmmmmm, sweet. Got the key, turned it, no start. My brother in law says, "I don't think these cars are too reliable" or something to that effect.
Ended up with an RX7 that I drove cross country without a hitch. Great road car, had a couple times where I was tooling down the highway at 70 or so, tunes going, and realized I was still in 3rd...
I bought my first car with me money, a 65 GT fastback. Could fix most anything with a crescent wrench and a 9/16"ths combo...
KISS. If he's he'll bent on the 944, let him go for it. He might not have it too long.
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jul 5 2014, 02:20 PM
Just do as I do with my son and start singing,
"you can't always get what you want".
Not to sound harsh, but I don't think any teen should be telling you what he will or won't drive or look at. You don't have to dictate the exact car but set the parameters he has to live within. Something like, Japanese or American, with airbags, not an SUV, model year xx or newer, ess than xxx miles, less than $xxx dollars, must pass presale inspection that he will pay for, etc.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 6 2014, 08:06 AM
So we are minutes away from seeing the 944 - wish us luck!
We did find a Mini of interest yesterday so we'll see!
For the record he is 20 and moving out in the fall.
The reasons he only recently got a license is a long story...
So no I can't entirely dictate what he buys and some lessons you do have to learn for yourself.
Posted by: colingreene Jul 6 2014, 07:46 PM
The Getrag in the non S (R50) still fails the only good trans is the manual S car
and they are reliable with a few minor issues.
I do minis daily so if you need help with that let me know.
Posted by: r_towle Jul 6 2014, 08:09 PM
So......
What happened?
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 07:28 AM
So......
What happened?
He bought the 944.
The water pump and timing belt were done last week.
The clutch, and lower control arms and so much more has been done over the years.
The car came with extensive service records, but has not seen much use in the last 10 years.
The guy buys, fixes and sells 944's saving a lot of them form being parted or junked.
The previous owner was going to part it because of the bad water pump, so all this guy did was the that and the timing belt.
The body is a mish-mash of original paint and some resprayed panels, but is straight with just minor dings.
Unlikely we could have found a better 944 for $3200 but I still wish he got something else.
It runs, shifts, stops great and I want to be happy for him but just ain't feeling it
He'll get a temp for it today and we'll go back down and get it next weekend....
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Posted by: Spoke Jul 7 2014, 07:32 AM
Looks nice. I can see how one could fall in love with it.
Posted by: thompson-mfr Jul 7 2014, 09:17 AM
I loved mine. I want to buy another soon. So comfortable to drive and the when you remove the top and stow it in the back you have 80% of your roof gone.
One thing I had to do to mine was replace the thermostat. It worked halfway and then stopped. These cars have good cooling, so if it looks like the temperature is getting up there at all. Replace it. I couldn't believe how cool it ran after I changed it. If it was a gas gauge it would have read at 1/4 tank at the highest point.
I also took out the clock and added a euro volt gauge. They come up on eBay once in a great while. I got lucky.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 09:24 AM
Looks nice. I can see how one could fall in love with it.
Yeah I was doomed as soon as we walked up to it!
I've gotta say the seller is a real nice guy with another one up on jackstands getting a clutch and another real rough one on a car trailer - reminded me of some of you guys
He told us we could call or stop by anytime if we needed help or advise.
Posted by: Andyrew Jul 7 2014, 09:25 AM
Its a beauty!!
Best color to
Posted by: thompson-mfr Jul 7 2014, 09:27 AM
Also if you don't care about 5 mph bumper protection you can drill the gas shocks behind the front bumper and push the front bumper in closer to flush. The front bumper comes off super easy.
Posted by: colingreene Jul 7 2014, 09:31 AM
i would never sink the bumpers on my teenagers car....
but your right it looks nicer.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 09:36 AM
the one on jackstands had a little better body.
A closer shot too, but my iPhone 4S has a focusing issue for some reason....
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Posted by: thompson-mfr Jul 7 2014, 09:40 AM
i would never sink the bumpers on my teenagers car....
but your right it looks nicer.
The bumper and the shock are still there of course, but you have removed the 5 mph of protection if you were to bump someone. It is just a oil filled shock. They mount right to the frame, so think you would still be fine if you bumped someone. With all the newer cars if you bump someone you would crack or damage their painted bumper. The shocks were never designed for a major impact. At least that is how I justified it.
Posted by: thompson-mfr Jul 7 2014, 09:43 AM
the one on jackstands had a little better body.
A closer shot too, but my iPhone 4S has a focusing issue for some reason....
I think the phone dial wheels are sweet. I have seen them on 914's and liked the look on them too.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 09:48 AM
I think the phone dial wheels are sweet. I have seen them on 914's and liked the look on them too.
They are my son's favorite too.
I was not a fan, but they are growing on me - especially with the price of 5 lug Fuch's being what it is.
Posted by: Chris H. Jul 7 2014, 09:57 AM
The grown up part of me is a little leery......but the teenager side is cheering like crazy... 
At least some of the expensive stuff was just done and you have a resource for help. It's $3200, so if it goes south or starts nickel and dime-ing him he can part it out and buy a Honda. Or...it could just turn out awesome.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 10:01 AM
The grown up part of me is a little leery......but the teenager side is cheering like crazy...
At least some of the expensive stuff was just done and you have a resource for help. It's $3200, so if it goes south or starts nickel and dime-ing him he can part it out and buy a Honda. Or...it could just turn out awesome.Very true Chris, thanks!
I'm trying to come out of the leeriness and accept it - I had a 383 4-speed 68 Charger when I was his age....
Posted by: wndsnd Jul 7 2014, 10:10 AM
He is a good kid Scott. I am sure he will be fine.
Looks like a fine first ride.
You know, it really doesn't matter what you put him in if he is irresponsible, he could get hurt.
Trust your son, and he will do the right thing. Maybe take him to Autox with you and let him learn to drive the right way in a controlled space. You will just have to wrench on two at a time!
John
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 11:05 AM
He is a good kid Scott. I am sure he will be fine.
Looks like a fine first ride.
You know, it really doesn't matter what you put him in if he is irresponsible, he could get hurt.
Trust your son, and he will do the right thing. Maybe take him to Autox with you and let him learn to drive the right way in a controlled space. You will just have to wrench on two at a time!
John
Thanks John, you are correct on all counts....
Posted by: matthepcat Jul 7 2014, 11:38 AM
I would have been so stoked to drive a 944 at his age. Back in those days I was not worried about breaking down on the side of the road...it was just part of the adventure calling a buddy to drive you to the parts store so you can limp it home.
Posted by: Chris H. Jul 7 2014, 11:56 AM
I had a 383 4-speed 68 Charger when I was his age....
Well that would certainly add some complexity to the discussion...
Posted by: blackmoon Jul 7 2014, 12:00 PM
Thanks Cap'n I knew you would state it like it is.
Thanks Cuda911 for what is likely a more realistic forum for him to check.
I looked around at some Subies, again I don't really want him in a turbo, but found some nice Impreza 2.5 RS cars in his price range and nearby - how are they?
Conversely I know if we start talking AWD he will lean to an Audi A4, but my understanding is their electrical systems don't age well - is that true? What else?
I'm trying to help him get started on his own with a car he likes drivng and looking at, but that is reliable, practical and safe too.
I really appreciate the input! Keep it coming, he's a good kid, but is as thick headed and stuborm as I am so I have my work cut out for me!
I think an Acura Integra GSR with V-tech, fast, handles reasonably well, good gas mileage and reasonable to fix
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 12:03 PM
I had a 383 4-speed 68 Charger when I was his age....
Well that would certainly add some complexity to the discussion...Hey it was only 335 HP with drum brakes and no power steering
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Posted by: Chris H. Jul 7 2014, 12:33 PM
Yeah real safe...and 335 was the RATED hp for insurance purposes...it was probably more than that in reality. But look at that thing! It's bad ass! 100% testosterone. I see you had the required bandanna on the rear view mirror which could be easily used as a headband OR hanging out of your back pocket OR tied around your leg depending on the mood.
Is that a Le Car in the background at the neighbor's house? Hopefully every last one of those has been crushed.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 12:52 PM
Yeah real safe...and 335 was the RATED hp for insurance purposes...it was probably more than that in reality. But look at that thing! It's bad ass! 100% testosterone. I see you had the required bandanna on the rear view mirror which could be easily used as a headband OR hanging out of your back pocket OR tied around your leg depending on the mood.
Is that a Le Car in the background at the neighbor's house? Hopefully every last one of those has been crushed.
You nailed it!
Circa 1980 Ormond Beach FL
Posted by: Krieger Jul 7 2014, 01:24 PM
Scott keep us posted regarding the mechanical issues you have and how much $/pain in the ass it is.
Posted by: KELTY360 Jul 7 2014, 01:40 PM
I'm trying to come out of the leeriness and accept it - I had a 383 4-speed 68 Charger when I was his age....
...and how did that work out for you? Any clutch problems? At least the water pump would be easier to replace.
Sounds like you did the best you could and because of your research it could turn out fine. Good luck to your son.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 01:51 PM
...and how did that work out for you? Any clutch problems? At least the water pump would be easier to replace.
Clutch, water pump and everything else! But the car was more simple to work on and I had more mechanical skill at that time than my son has now.
And it only landed me in jail once (minor misunderstanding on whether I was just "peeling out" or had just robbed the 7/11 I was pulling out of), but we all know the law has less of a sense of humor now then in 1980...
Thank you!
Posted by: r_towle Jul 7 2014, 03:43 PM
Congrats, your sons car is faster than your car.....by quite a bit.
Enjoy the bonding, busted knuckles, pokes and jabs from him that his is faster.....
Rich
Posted by: scotty b Jul 7 2014, 03:50 PM
Make sure he understands that when he gets it sideways to drop a gear and floor it to straighten it out. 
If he goes 180* that's a completely different story 
Posted by: wndsnd Jul 7 2014, 03:58 PM
Yeah real safe...and 335 was the RATED hp for insurance purposes...it was probably more than that in reality. But look at that thing! It's bad ass! 100% testosterone. I see you had the required bandanna on the rear view mirror which could be easily used as a headband OR hanging out of your back pocket OR tied around your leg depending on the mood.
Is that a Le Car in the background at the neighbor's house? Hopefully every last one of those has been crushed.
I had two of those buggers through the years. I thought they were fun, kind of like the old Datsun 1200's. Light and cheap. Never see any today. I don't think any lasted.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 7 2014, 05:20 PM
Congrats, your sons car is faster than your car.....by quite a bit.
Enjoy the bonding, busted knuckles, pokes and jabs from him that his is faster.....
Rich
Thanks Rich - all true but I dont think he can take me in AX!
Posted by: r_towle Jul 7 2014, 06:55 PM
Congrats, your sons car is faster than your car.....by quite a bit.
Enjoy the bonding, busted knuckles, pokes and jabs from him that his is faster.....
Rich
Thanks Rich - all true but I dont think he can take me in AX!
you are still young....
Wait till you realize reflexes have alot to do with it....
Rich
Posted by: Porschef Jul 7 2014, 07:02 PM
I might aver that you wish you still had that glorious beast 
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 8 2014, 10:00 AM
I might aver that you wish you still had that glorious beast
I kept it a long time after that photo.
It started to have a fair amount of rust and while it was mechanically 100% I didn't have the money or skills to fix it and body panels weren't available yet.
I sold it in 96 when I was going through a divorce.
It was too much work for the guy who bought it and he sold it too.
I would imagine it ended up parted out
but maybe I'll dig through my stuff for the VIN and do a search sometime....My uncle owned if before me and the first time I saw it I was 12, the last time I was 36
Posted by: Amphicar770 Jul 8 2014, 07:17 PM
Congrats on the purchase. Hope it works out well.
As you will likely be doing a lot of the wrenching, make sure you set one firm rule.
You will help him work on it as much as he wants but you will never work on it alone.
He bought it so now he has to take the bad with the good. Hopefully more good than bad. Best of luck. The teenager in me is also cheering. My first car was a Pontiac GranVille convertible with a 455 that my dad took in on trade. He would NOT let me have the 914 he took on trade!
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 12 2014, 01:19 PM
So we drove it home today!
120 miles of highway including stop and go through Boston on a 90F day with no problems
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Posted by: speed metal army Jul 12 2014, 02:11 PM
Awesome!
I loved my 951! Hes going to enjoy it. Fun cars and super reliable when sorted out.
Congrats to your boy!
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 12 2014, 03:19 PM
A PCA driver skill day/weekend would make a fun, safe gift.
Posted by: Drums66 Jul 12 2014, 03:35 PM
So we drove it home today!
120 miles of highway including stop and go through Boston on a 90F day with no problems
.....May you enjoy your choice!...stand-by it son.....be safe
(I've seen that car somewhere before?)
Posted by: '73-914kid Jul 12 2014, 03:59 PM
I remember the day we brought my 914 home... What a day that was..
Congrats to the both of you, I'm sure it'll be a great first car!
Posted by: jasons Jul 13 2014, 11:30 AM
Nice pic and congrats. Does he know the origins of the shirt?
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 13 2014, 12:53 PM
Nice pic and congrats. Does he know the origins of the shirt?
Yes he does! When it comes to movies, music and a lot of other things he feels he was born 50 years to late.
We drove around a lot today learning how to drive a stick - he is doing real well
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 13 2014, 01:05 PM
What's the story about the shirt?
Posted by: jasons Jul 13 2014, 01:13 PM
What's the story about the shirt?
Bluto (John Belushi ) wore it in Animal House.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 13 2014, 01:21 PM
What's the story about the shirt?
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Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 13 2014, 01:24 PM
i'm old enough to have forgotten.
Posted by: Drums66 Jul 13 2014, 01:46 PM
A PCA driver skill day/weekend would make a fun, safe gift.
....A good thought
(soon as possible).....
Posted by: Drums66 Jul 13 2014, 02:12 PM
What's the story about the shirt?
......"Do doughnuts,not speedballs!".....
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 15 2014, 09:53 AM
So he has been driving it to work and is getting better at clutch/shifting and it is running driving well to but:
1) it does start a little rough when cold but clears out in seconds if you brings the revs up a bit. The PO thought that an injector was leaking down into the motor overnight.
2) It has an oil leak. Not major, but not a few drops. overnight it makes about an 8" spot on the driveway but it is very little actual oil. We'll have to get it up on ramps at least to get an idea where it is coming from. It drips off the crossmember is all we can tell on the ground.
Posted by: mgp4591 Jul 15 2014, 10:07 AM
Everyones first car has oil leaks- hell, most of our cars have oil leaks! It's easy to be Dad and want something safe and solid in most circumstances for our kids- it's what we're supposed to do. When I recommended to you about a Subaru, I almost forgot the sheer ecstasy of punching the throttle the first day I got my 65 GTO! Much to my dads chagrin, I was constantly boiling the tires and building the engine. But IT WAS MINE! The passion has faded somewhat thru the other cars, the kid hauling cars and the subsequent Subaru that gets me everywhere and anywhere reliably but that's what my bike and my future teener hot rod is all about- the passion! Congratulations Dad, for keeping your sons fire alive and well- may he manually shift well and safely into his future!
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 15 2014, 12:05 PM
the first 'lessons' start rather quickly.
Posted by: scott_in_nh Jul 15 2014, 01:53 PM
Everyones first car has oil leaks- hell, most of our cars have oil leaks!
My 914 doesn't leak oil but it does "sweat" a bit!
Posted by: jasons Jul 15 2014, 03:02 PM
If you haven't been there yet, get familiar with http://www.clarks-garage.com/ I had factory manuals when I owned mine and I think everything (and then some) in the factory manuals is on this site.
Idle issue could be the ISV (Idle Stabilizer Valve)
http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/fuel-21.htm
Slightly OT.... Another thing to watch, the rear hatches leak water into recesses on the left and right side of the rear cargo area just behind the wheels. Lift the cargo area carpet to inspect. Mine would get full of water after a good storm.
Posted by: stanthedog Jul 15 2014, 03:28 PM
Quote:
ripper, 914's don't make good first vehicles for a driver without a garage to do repairs or a second car as a backup. My son thought otherwise (against my advice) and guess where his sits now - in my driveway!
That's my son's first car, spot on. Guess where his car is- In my garage with the engine on the floor behind it. .
Awsome first car, love the looks of the 944.
My daughter's first car was a 79 VW dasher diesel wagon. 
. She could beat the hell out of it and it still was faster than a speeding turtle.
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