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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Diagnose no start
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 01:47 PM
On my way home on the freeway last night, my 74 2.0L just died travelling along at 70 MPH. Had her towed home.
Looking at it today, it appears there is no spark. If I turn the key, I can hear the fuel pump so seems like I got power there. I have a newer Bosch coil from PP that I put in a few months ago (it's one of those silver looking ones but a Bosch unit). I replaced the coil back with the old one and still no start. Car cranks, but no fire.
The car has Pertronix in it. I suspect this is what died. Does that sound right to the folks here?
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 4 2014, 02:12 PM
Those are notorius for dying. Try a set of points.
Posted by: Mblizzard Jul 4 2014, 02:15 PM
Have you verified the lack of spark? Just checking because you said it appears that it has no spark.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 02:23 PM
Have you verified the lack of spark? Just checking because you said it appears that it has no spark.
I haven't verified. I assume I'll need a help to crank the ignition while I hold one of the plug wires (plug end) next to some metal (the body). Rookie weekend mechanic here....
Posted by: Mblizzard Jul 4 2014, 02:45 PM
If you work alone a lot set yourself up a remote start switch. Essentially across the starter. Or you can make two long leads with clips. Place spark plug in a wood board (hole drilled in board works nice) attach one lead on the spark plug wire then to the top of the plug. Take the other lead and find a good ground then place the clip on the bottom of the plug. Crank and you can see the spark in the drivers seat.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 06:16 PM
So I checked for spark by pulling the #1 plug wire, hooking up to spark plug directly, vampire clip in the spark end of the plug and a wire that I ground to the body. I had a helper cranking the motor for me.
I saw spark there, but is sure seemed awful weak. I've never seen the spark on a plug outside the motor. And of course, my ground could have been poor also as i was just rigging this up to see if there was any spark. How "strong" should the spark be or look?
Otherwise I got spark (weak?), and I hear the fuel pump running, then what's next?
This is a 74 with the "seatbelt relay" under the passenger seat. These things are famous for causing issues. One time, mine caused the car to not start (except the symptom was that it wouldn't even crank). I ended up re-seating all the connections under there (6 months ago) and had been fine until now.
Otherwise? I dunno... 
Posted by: Bartlett 914 Jul 4 2014, 06:25 PM
So I checked for spark by pulling the #1 plug wire, hooking up to spark plug directly, vampire clip in the spark end of the plug and a wire that I ground to the body. I had a helper cranking the motor for me.
I saw spark there, but is sure seemed awful weak. I've never seen the spark on a plug outside the motor. And of course, my ground could have been poor also as i was just rigging this up to see if there was any spark. How "strong" should the spark be or look?
And I got spark, and I hear the fuel pump running, then what's next?
This is a 74 with the "seatbelt relay" under the passenger seat. These things are famous for causing issues. One time, mine caused the car to not start (except the symptom was that it wouldn't even crank). I ended up re-seating all the connections under there (6 months ago) and had been fine until now.
Otherwise? I dunno...
Seatbelt relay will prevent the engine from cranking. Since you can crank, that isn't your problem.
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 4 2014, 07:17 PM
Check the ground wire that runs between the points plates in distributor....if it comes off, it can cause a no start situation.
Posted by: Mblizzard Jul 4 2014, 07:57 PM
Ok some good suggestions. But I would check the wires to be sure they are not broken especially the coil wire. Make sure the cap and rotor are in good condition.
For fun, take a heavy gauge wire and attach it to the engine case and the negative side of the battery. Then recheck the spark and try starting.
Verify that the magnet on the distributor shaft has not slipped. Make sure the Petronix unit is tight to the distributor plate and the gap between the unit and the magnet is correct.
Remove and check all plugs. Before putting the plugs back in get the engine to TDC and verify that it is pointing to number 1 cylinder.
If you don't find any problems slips a set of points in it and see what happens.
Or you could just skip all of than and start with the points first! Which ever way you go, it will always turn out you should have gone the other.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 08:00 PM
Check the ground wire that runs between the points plates in distributor....if it comes off, it can cause a no start situation.
Not sure where to look for that in there? Will it be obvious? I'll snap a photo tomorrow if I don't see anything obvious.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 08:03 PM
Ok some good suggestions. But I would check the wires to be sure they are not broken especially the coil wire. Make sure the cap and rotor are in good condition.
For fun, take a heavy gauge wire and attach it to the engine case and the negative side of the battery. Then recheck the spark and try starting.
Verify that the magnet on the distributor shaft has not slipped. Make sure the Petronix unit is tight to the distributor plate and the gap between the unit and the magnet is correct.
Remove and check all plugs. Before putting the plugs back in get the engine to TDC and verify that it is pointing to number 1 cylinder.
If you don't find any problems slips a set of points in it and see what happens.
Or you could just skip all of than and start with the points first! Which ever way you go, it will always turn out you should have gone the other.
Spark plug and coil wire are Clewett brand (spiral, 1200 degree) bought from PP less thaa 6 months ago. Those should be good.
I don't have a set of spare points. I'll take a look at TDC and the plugs tomorrow. I think I'll get another Pertronix on order (couldn't hurt to have a spare anyway.)
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 09:02 PM
I went at looked at the ground strap on the contact breaker plate. Looks OK.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 4 2014, 09:43 PM
Ground in dizzy appears ok.....pretty dirty in the dizzy though. It could definitely be a fried Pertronix module or perhaps one of the wires from the module to the coil has come loose in it's connector? I've got Pertronix and I've had that happen due to a poor crimp on the connector (my fault). I've not had a module fry out suddenly but I know that it could happen. My goal is to have a spare dizzy in my emergency kit setup and ready in case something happens like that. And I'd look at the rotor and cap as well....
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 4 2014, 10:04 PM
Ground in dizzy appears ok.....pretty dirty in the dizzy though. It could definitely be a fried Pertronix module or perhaps one of the wires from the module to the coil has come loose in it's connector? I've got Pertronix and I've had that happen due to a poor crimp on the connector (my fault). I've not had a module fry out suddenly but I know that it could happen. My goal is to have a spare dizzy in my emergency kit setup and ready in case something happens like that. And I'd look at the rotor and cap as well....
Since I don't have a set of points and condensor, I guess I'm going to just order another Pertronix and test it out. Worst case I have a spare/backup Pertronix if that doesn't fix it.
Cap and rotor are around 6 months old (same as coil).
After that, I don't know what it could be? Ignition switch going bad?
I
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 4 2014, 10:28 PM
I should have an extra set of points if you need to try them.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 5 2014, 12:13 PM
So this morning, I checked over everything again:
1. Bullet Fuses in relay board are fine.
2. Bullett Fuses under dash are fine.
3. Connections to coil are fine (no loose wires at crimp).
4. Spark plug wires and coil wire are less than 6 month old Clewett wires from PP. Should be fine.
5. I did a spark test yesterday, and did get some spark. Not sure on if it was "weak" or not but there was spark.
So, if motor cranks and I got spark that leave fuel as suspect. Question about fuel pump operations:
1. When you turn the key, should you hear the fuel pump kick in? This is a 74 2.0L with fuel pump moved up front. I thought I heard it yesterday, but I didn't hear anything this morning.
2. How do I go about checking the fuel pump electrically? Later this afternoon, I plan on removing the underbelly pan and having a look at the connections to the pump (loose wire?) and looking to see if the hoses are not crimped.
The best part is I just fueled up on gas and have 3/4 tank full which would make replacing the fuel pump that much more fun.
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 5 2014, 12:26 PM
http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/FPChecklist_frame.htm
Posted by: Bartlett 914 Jul 5 2014, 12:45 PM
Spray some starter fluid or brake cleaner in the intake and see if it fires. That will help see if it a fuel issue
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 5 2014, 02:11 PM
The fuel pump should kick on for a second or so when you turn on the ignition key.
Did you test the fuses and the fuse holders for continuity with your meter? They can go intermittently bad.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 5 2014, 07:51 PM
So I finally got the 2.0L started again. Fuel pump not getting power is the issue.
I think my relay board is bad. The reason I think this is that my AAR is having trouble also (not closing). I had issues with my AAR last fall and ended up replacing with another used one and at the time it didn't fix it. I ended up finding corrosion under the main power relay on the relay board. Cleaned that up and the AAR started working.
So back to today, fuel pump power seems intermittent. AAR power seems intermittent. Took out relay board and cleaned it up on top (had a couple minor little corrosion spots). I believe the two have the relay board in common. I'm feeling like this is the likely cuplrit anyways.
And another odd note if it helps:
The red "brake light" (normally seen lit when emergency brake is engaged) has been always "on" in my car for about 6 months. Now, it likes to just blink on/off all the time. When it stayed always on, it would also blink in conjunction with a turn signal if that was engaged. Also, the blinking on/off just started and of course this is what started this thread (car died on the highway).
Going to put a WTB up for a relay board. Can you get these new?
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 5 2014, 08:00 PM
I believe the AAR circuit is connected to the fuel pump power through the board....
They aren't available new but there are some on the classifieds now, one was
posted yesterday in NC. If you dig a few pages into the classifieds, someone has some real nice ones that they listed.
Bruce Stone may have one too....
Posted by: Mike Bellis Jul 5 2014, 08:05 PM
The brake light warning circuit is active; Blinking light.
Things to check:
Switch under parking brake handle. If not pushed down all the way, it will blink
Switch (reset switch) on the brake master cylinder (under the car) it trips if fluid is low, brakes are bled or sudden loss of fluid
Most likely one of these two items. Can also be a bad diode but its rare to fail.
Relay board may be rebuildable. I have been thinking of offering this service but I haven't figured out a price or if demand is there. Part of what I used to do in the marine Corps was component level repairs. I am looking for cores. 
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 5 2014, 08:10 PM
The brake light warning circuit is active; Blinking light.
Things to check:
Switch under parking brake handle. If not pushed down all the way, it will blink
Switch (reset switch) on the brake master cylinder (under the car) it trips if fluid is low, brakes are bled or sudden loss of fluid
Most likely one of these two items. Can also be a bad diode but its rare to fail.
Relay board may be rebuildable. I have been thinking of offering this service but I haven't figured out a price or if demand is there. Part of what I used to do in the marine Corps was component level repairs. I am looking for cores.
I've got the belly pan off, but for the life ofme, I can not find the reset switch on the brake MC. Mine is a 17mm MC.
I have looked at the switch under the e-brake and even tried pushing it in by hand with no luck. The "blinking" on/off vs the "solid on" is new.
And more fun notes: Sometimes, that ebrake light is not on (as it is supposed to be), but when that is true then the "fasten seatbelts" light is blinking and that buzzer goes off too. That's one of my favorites experiences to drive.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 5 2014, 08:11 PM
I believe the AAR circuit is connected to the fuel pump power through the board....
They aren't available new but there are some on the classifieds now, one was
posted yesterday in NC. If you dig a few pages into the classifieds, someone has some real nice ones that they listed.
Bruce Stone may have one too....
I ordered a rebuilt one from 914sixer including NOS voltage regulator. I think I saw his thread a while back also on the ones he rebuilt and they looked great.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 6 2014, 03:33 PM
A follow up question about fuel pump power:
So looking at my fuel pump power problem again today, it appears my fuel pump runs continuously once the ignition is switched on (without cranking the starter) vs running only for 1.5-2.0 seconds and shutting off.
1. Given that my fuel pump has been relocated to the front, where is the most likely place that the PO jumpered in for power to the fuel pump? And most likely ground location?
2. In the original fuel pump location (engine bay) there would have been power coming off of the harness (through the snorkel?). When people relocate the pump up front, do they typically just tie up the old power lead (and ground?) for the pump in the rear?
3. If I wanted to extend the original power lead from the rear up to the fuel pump now locatced in the front, how hard is that to get through the firewall and the tunnel? Mission impossible without pulling it all out?
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 6 2014, 10:33 PM
Best guess is the PO wired the pump to a switched power terminal on the fuse block--but no telling what was really done.
The power should be tied into the old power wire that's back in the engine bay. How you run it is up to you--the Doc at AA would have you drill a hole in the firewall and run a new wire that way. What I did (for other wires; I did not relocate the pump) is poke the new wires through the rubber wiring harness boot into the tunnel, and run them along side the stock wiring harness.
--DD
Posted by: Tom Jul 7 2014, 12:15 AM
Easy test - pull the fuel pump relay on the relay board. If pumps comes on when you turn on the key switch, the PO straight wired it.
Tom
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 7 2014, 09:30 PM
After I replace my relay board and look for any other wiring faults, if I think my fuel pump is kaput then what are my options? I have read that there is a 2-port pump from Bosch that can be had?
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Jul 7 2014, 11:19 PM
Sent you a PM, but before you go replacing the fuel pump you are sure the fuel filter isn't clogged?
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 8 2014, 08:19 AM
Sent you a PM, but before you go replacing the fuel pump you are sure the fuel filter isn't clogged?
Thanks for the PM. I'm pretty sure it is not the filter only because I don't hear the pump running when turning on the ignition. Sometimes it works (pump runs) and sometimes it doesn't).
I'm starting with the relay board (heck its 40 years old as it is) because I am also having an intermittent issue where my AAR doesn't work. It's not a stuck AAR issue...it's a power issue. After that, I'm going to triple check the wiring to the pump given that it was "hacked in" to run off of power from up front vs. running power from the rear.
I'll be honest, I'm looking at taking any of the fuel lines out from up front where the pump is dead last because I have 3/4 tank of gas. I guess my neighbors are going to get some free gas in their gas cans for their lawn mowers.
At this point, could still be anything such as bad grounds, other rotted cabling, etc, etc.... I know, I know....it will be the pump needs replaced in the end.
Posted by: Java2570 Jul 8 2014, 09:25 AM
If your fuel lines haven't been replaced, do it now while you're in there....I'm in process of doing all the lines and couldn't believe how bad my rubber lines to the tank were. One was kinked over and split all the way to the woven core; I can't believe it wasn't leaking! The SS tunnel lines are pretty easy to install and there was a minimum of swearing, which is uncommon for me! And I did get a couple of gas cans full of gas for the mower: bonus!
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 8 2014, 11:49 AM
I'm starting with the relay board (heck its 40 years old as it is) because I am also having an intermittent issue where my AAR doesn't work.
The AAR runs off the fuel pump power circuit. They're connected inside the relay board. It could be something upstream of both that is causing the problem. Double-check the fuses on the relay board, and the wire that feeds power to the fuses. Wiggle the main wiring harness and see if the power drops out and comes back.
--DD
Posted by: ClayPerrine Jul 8 2014, 02:41 PM
This should help with the fuel pump troubleshooting:
On a D-Jet car, the fuel pump will run for 2 seconds to prime the fuel ring when the key is turned on.
Troubleshooting procedure:
Get a 12V test light from FLAPS.
Hook the alligator clip on the test light to a good ground. In the engine compartment, use the battery negative post. I like to make a really long wire with a loop connector bolted to the battery negative post so I can go anywhere in the car for testing purposes. Verify you have a good test light by touching the probe to the battery positive. I learned the hard way one time to always verify the test equipment.
Go to the relay board.
Remove relay 75.
Using a test light, check to see if there is power at pin #30.
If there is no power, check for power on both sides of the rear most fuse (#91) on the relay board. It should have power on both sides. If it only has power on the right side, then you have a problem with the fuse, and you will need to remove the fuse, clean and tighten the relay board fuse contacts, and replace the fuse with a new 25 amp fuse. If the fuse is blown, and it blows again when you replace it, find the Auxiliary Air Regulator. It is on the intake plenum, on the left front side. Disconnect the white wire from it and see if the fuse blows again. If it does, then the white wire between the relay board and the Auxiliary Air Regulator is shorting to ground. I would remove the cover off the 12 pin connector at the back of the relay board and take the white wire out of it. This will disconnect the Auxiliary Air Regulator circuit. That will prevent the car from idling up when cold, so you will have to hold the throttle manually until it warms up. If the fuse does not blow with the white wire disconnected from the Auxiliary Air regulator, then the Auxiliary Air Regulator is shorted internally. You will need to source a replacement. They are NLA, so you will have to find a used one, or replace it with the L-Jet one. The L-Jet one is a different design, but performs the exact same function. You will have to add a L-Jet injector plug to connect it and you will have to ground the second lead.
If you do have power on pin #30, then use a jumper wire to connect pin #30 to pin #87. You should hear the fuel pump run.
If you do not hear the fuel pump run, leave the jumper in, and go to the pump and unplug it. Using your test light, see if one of the contacts on the fuel pump plug has power.
If you don't have power, you have an open circuit between the relay board and the fuel pump. Remove the cover off the 14 pin connector and check pin 13 (the one on the left end of the front row) with the test light. If you don't have power there, then you have a bad relay board. If you do, then you have a broken wire between the fuel pump and the relay board. The wire color is black with a yellow tracer.
If you do have power at the fuel pump, then check the ground at the pump. Move your alligator clip on the test light (or your extension wire) to the positive side of the battery. Test the other side of the fuel pump plug. If the light does not come on, then you have a bad ground. If the fuel pump is in the original rear location, it grounds at the post above the relay board. If it is a 75 or 76, where they moved the pump up front, then it grounds at the ground lug above the fuse box inside the car.
If you have a good ground, then you have a failed pump. A replacement can be obtained from FLAPS. Ask for Airtex E8445. This pump will be the correct pressure and volume, but will only have 2 fittings. If you have a 3 fitting pump, just remove the Y fitting in the line and hook the two return lines together.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 8 2014, 09:15 PM
If your fuel lines haven't been replaced, do it now while you're in there....I'm in process of doing all the lines and couldn't believe how bad my rubber lines to the tank were. One was kinked over and split all the way to the woven core; I can't believe it wasn't leaking! The SS tunnel lines are pretty easy to install and there was a minimum of swearing, which is uncommon for me! And I did get a couple of gas cans full of gas for the mower: bonus!
Yes, fuel lines are SS through the tunnel.
Posted by: boxsterfan Jul 8 2014, 09:16 PM
This should help with the fuel pump troubleshooting:
On a D-Jet car, the fuel pump will run for 2 seconds to prime the fuel ring when the key is turned on.
Troubleshooting procedure:
Get a 12V test light from FLAPS.
Hook the alligator clip on the test light to a good ground. In the engine compartment, use the battery negative post. I like to make a really long wire with a loop connector bolted to the battery negative post so I can go anywhere in the car for testing purposes. Verify you have a good test light by touching the probe to the battery positive. I learned the hard way one time to always verify the test equipment.
Go to the relay board.
Remove relay 75.
Using a test light, check to see if there is power at pin #30.
If there is no power, check for power on both sides of the rear most fuse (#91) on the relay board. It should have power on both sides. If it only has power on the right side, then you have a problem with the fuse, and you will need to remove the fuse, clean and tighten the relay board fuse contacts, and replace the fuse with a new 25 amp fuse. If the fuse is blown, and it blows again when you replace it, find the Auxiliary Air Regulator. It is on the intake plenum, on the left front side. Disconnect the white wire from it and see if the fuse blows again. If it does, then the white wire between the relay board and the Auxiliary Air Regulator is shorting to ground. I would remove the cover off the 12 pin connector at the back of the relay board and take the white wire out of it. This will disconnect the Auxiliary Air Regulator circuit. That will prevent the car from idling up when cold, so you will have to hold the throttle manually until it warms up. If the fuse does not blow with the white wire disconnected from the Auxiliary Air regulator, then the Auxiliary Air Regulator is shorted internally. You will need to source a replacement. They are NLA, so you will have to find a used one, or replace it with the L-Jet one. The L-Jet one is a different design, but performs the exact same function. You will have to add a L-Jet injector plug to connect it and you will have to ground the second lead.
If you do have power on pin #30, then use a jumper wire to connect pin #30 to pin #87. You should hear the fuel pump run.
If you do not hear the fuel pump run, leave the jumper in, and go to the pump and unplug it. Using your test light, see if one of the contacts on the fuel pump plug has power.
If you don't have power, you have an open circuit between the relay board and the fuel pump. Remove the cover off the 14 pin connector and check pin 13 (the one on the left end of the front row) with the test light. If you don't have power there, then you have a bad relay board. If you do, then you have a broken wire between the fuel pump and the relay board. The wire color is black with a yellow tracer.
If you do have power at the fuel pump, then check the ground at the pump. Move your alligator clip on the test light (or your extension wire) to the positive side of the battery. Test the other side of the fuel pump plug. If the light does not come on, then you have a bad ground. If the fuel pump is in the original rear location, it grounds at the post above the relay board. If it is a 75 or 76, where they moved the pump up front, then it grounds at the ground lug above the fuse box inside the car.
If you have a good ground, then you have a failed pump. A replacement can be obtained from FLAPS. Ask for Airtex E8445. This pump will be the correct pressure and volume, but will only have 2 fittings. If you have a 3 fitting pump, just remove the Y fitting in the line and hook the two return lines together.
I'm selling the car if I can't fix it with that info.
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