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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 914 Cup Proposed Rules and Classes! now is the
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 21 2005, 09:11 PM
914cup 2005
a virtual autocross series....
914ers are encouraged to participate in their respective autocross series, and report those times back here for a virtual, nationwide 914 autocross competition!
How it works:
Class your car. Enter an autocross in your area. Compete. Report back the event's TTOD, your fastest time of the day, your class, and some other minor bits of information. Points for your submitted times will be generated and entered into an ongoing series for 2005. At the end of the 2005 season, the best of each competitor's SIX (6) events will be tallied.
How do I sign up?
go here: http://www.stanford.edu/~neb/914cupmain.htm
Rules:
-Open to 914's only.
-4cyl, 6cyl, SBC conversions, rotary conversions, EV's, tube frame cars, and other customs are welcome to compete. Simply, the car MUST have started its life out as a 914, and retain some spirit of a 914.
-Cars will be divided by points into four (4) classes. Competitors are responsible for classing their cars themselves, and for policing each other if necessary.
-see below for classing information
-Eligible AX's
-Only submissions from an official, timed AX event run by a sanctioning body such as PCA or SCCA is eligible.
-In order to preserve competition, only AX events with a minimum of 5 total competitors will be eligible.
-if 5-10 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .8
-if 11-15 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .9
-if 16-20 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .95
-if 21+ competitors, event points will not be handicapped.
-Competitors may enter and submit times from any number of AX events they wish.
-AX "training schools" are not eligible.
-If a competitor competes in multiple sanctioning bodies (e.g. PCA and SCCA), s/he must account for two seperate entries in 914cup; one for each sanctioning body. In this case, the competitor may submit his/her best series results for end-of-the-year 914cup standings.
-Only events held in 2005 will be eligible.
Eligible Submissions:
-Definition: TTOD here refers to the fastest officially-recognized run by any production-based car. This specifically excludes open-wheeled cars such as SCCA's A-mod or F-SAE classes, as well as (very rarely) some PCA Exhibition-classed cars on a case-by-case basis.
-Each competitor must submit their personal fastest official run of the day, as well as the official TTOD for the event. A score will be generated based on a ratio of the TTOD to the competitor's best time multiplied by 100.
e.g. if the TTOD is 37.286, and the competitor's best time is 41.615, then the competitor will earn 90 points for that event.
(37.286/41.615 = .895975009 * 100 = 89.59 rounded to nearest integer
= 90)
-This score will then be modified if necessary based upon total number of
entries (see above, "Eligible AX's")
-TTOD will always be 100 points, except AX events with less than 21
competitors, where TTOD will be either 95, 90, or 80 points (see above,
"Eligible AX's")
-All submissions shall be Raw Times -- not indexed (i.e. do not submit your PAX results)
-Fun runs are not accepted for a competitors best time
-All submitted times must be officially recognized by the organization that you run with.
-i.e., if a competitor disputes a time with his/her sanctioning body, s/he must nonetheless report the officially recognized time. If such a dispute is resolved in the competitor's favor, s/he may have his/ her score adjusted accordingly.
Score Keeping
-Scores will be tallied continuously throughout the autocross season.
-Scores will be reported in integer form. Only in the event of a season-tie will scores be calculated to the
n-th decimal necessary to determine a winner.
CLASSES:
Competitors must class themselves by adding the following points in tally according to their 914. Competitors may switch classes mid-season, but end of the year standings will be tallied for the highest class that competitor raced in.
Backdating (e.g. exhaust, bumpers, doors) is free.
Stock = 0-99 points
Improved = 100-249 points
Modified = 250-349 points
Super-Modified = 350+ points
Tires
Width:
205-width and under = + 0
tirewidth (for 305 and less): (2xx – 205) = penalty points
greater than 305 width = 100 penalty points.
i.e. :
205 or less = +0
215 = +10
225 = +20
235 = +30
etc....
305 or greater = +100
Competitors running slicks in non-standard tire size must convert sizes and add points accordingly.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html
Type:
DOT Street Tires with treadwear rating over 100* = +0
*exception: Falken Azenis = +50
DOT r-compound tires = +100
non DOT tires (slicks) = +150*
*Competitors running slicks must run in S-Mod,
at a minimum of 350 total points. If the competitor's
total class-points do not add up to at least 350 points,
they must nonetheless report 350 total points for all
purposes of classing.
Brakes
free all classes
Suspension
non-stock rear springs/torsion bars +30
fine-adjustable coil spring platforms +10
(e.g. threaded collars or sim.)
non-stock sway bar +30
Interior
Interior has been substantially gutted and lightened = +20
Race Seat = +10
Body/Frame
car has been lightened by replacing body panels or bumpers with non-stock parts (fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.) = +10 per body panel
car has been stiffened by reinforcing suspension points (extra bracing, cage tied into suspension points, etc.) = +20
inner or outer long reinforcement: +5
for cars that have been lightened/stiffened beyond the above: please add points as you deem appropriate.
Transmission
non-stock gearing = +15
LSD = +40
Engine/Flywheel/Exhaust/Induction/etc.
Displacement (4cyl)
1.7 - 1.8 = +0
1.9 = +15
2.0 = +30
2.01-2.2 = +45
2.21-2.4 = +60
>2.4 = +75
Displacement (6 cyl)
2.0 = +45
2.01-2.3 = +60
2.31-2.6 = +75
2.7-2.9 = +90
3.0 = +100
3.2 = +125
3.6+ = +150
Induction (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*
Stock FI = +0
Stock or non-improved Carbs = +0
Non-stock FI = +15
Non-stock or improved Carbs* = +15
(this includes all dual carbs on T4's)
*for conversions such as SBC/rotary: if the induction
is an improvement over a common version of your
motor (such as a big carb on a V8), add points as
as directed.
Cams (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*
stock = +0
non-stock = +20
*for conversions such as SBC/rotary: if the camshaft
is an improvement over a common version of your
motor, add points as directed.
Ignition:
free all classes
Other:
V8 conversion = +70*
*Add additional points for induction and cam
(etc.) if necessary. Exhaust, including
headers, is free.
Rotary/Suby conversion = +75*
*Add additional points for induction, cam and
turbo (etc.) if necessary. Exhaust, including
headers, is free.
Electric conversion = add "Engine" points as you deem appropriate
Other conversion = add points as you deem appropriate
Flywheel (All Cars):
stock = +0
lightened = +5
Forced Induction (All Cars):
car is turbo- or super- charged: +40
Exhaust (All 4cyl and 6cyl):
mufflers: free all classes
headers: +15
Posted by: r_towle Jan 21 2005, 09:18 PM
Im in.
I think that an LSD is/was a stock option, so i dont think that it should be penialized.
Rich
Posted by: xsboost90 Jan 21 2005, 09:22 PM
im in! but we'll see what my initial number is when the car is running.
Posted by: spare time toys Jan 21 2005, 09:36 PM
Sounds good to me, just need a working car.
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 21 2005, 09:40 PM
Well you know I'm in.
Classing my car is going to be interesting.
BTW Nathan you are doing an excellent job putting this together. I was thinking something simpler but your stuff all makes sense to keep it fair.
Only 6 events???? I plan on at least 15 But some think I am nuts for cars. 
Posted by: monkei Jan 21 2005, 09:47 PM
awesome idea! 
cant wait to see where peoples' cars are starting at with penalty points and who comes out on top.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jan 21 2005, 09:55 PM
Ok, I'm in. Goal is not to be last.
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 21 2005, 10:04 PM
Well I'm in. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 21 2005, 10:46 PM
Im in with an exception -
the PCA AX i attend usually has 10-15 cars. great fun... most are beginners. why should that have any affect on my eligibility to play in the 914 cup?
if this happens..you basically nailed 10+ of the 914 club members within 20 miles of me. NOT COOL. 10 active people out of the "cup".
also ....
| QUOTE |
| Non-stock Carbs = +15 |
either way im still in improved
Posted by: trekkor Jan 21 2005, 10:50 PM
I'm in, of course.
265 points 
Modified...
Great job. this will be fun. Another reason to log on. 
KT
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 21 2005, 10:58 PM
10-15 in your class or 10-15 total at the event? I think Nathan means total at the event, which gives the TTOD some meaning.
If you really only have 10-15 people showing up TOTAL at your events, that's quite remarkable. Do they not AX in SoCal?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 21 2005, 10:59 PM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 09:58 PM) |
| 10-15 in your class or 10-15 total at the event? I think Nathan means total at the event, which gives the TTOD some meaning. If you really only have 10-15 people showing up TOTAL at your events, that's quite remarkable. Do they not AX in SoCal? |
riverside region PCA.... usueally less than 15 cars, i made a post...got more 914's to show up than 911's.....
thas really lame if i cant be included in this
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 21 2005, 11:16 PM
i'm in ...
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 21 2005, 11:17 PM
btw. once this is settle down, we should print out some flyers that each of us can bring to their first AX's of the season to hand out to outher 914 guys that are not on the board.
yes, yes, i know, hard to believe, but we have quite a few guys around here that are not part of the club ...
Andy
Posted by: trekkor Jan 22 2005, 12:08 AM
This needs to be nailed, don't you think?
All the clubbers need a chance to get in on this one.
A/X is really fun and this adds a great spin on it.
KT
Posted by: grantsfo Jan 22 2005, 12:17 AM
I'm in ..with stock 1.8 and Falkens I should do ok based on those points. Looks like 35 for me.
Posted by: Otmar Jan 22 2005, 12:50 AM
I'm tempted, might just be in.
I wonder if this would get me out to more than one AX a year? 
I know there are only few of us EVs , but if we do well we'll need to look into more of a point penalty for Electrics.
My 914 may weigh 3000 lbs, but it puts out over 200 HP over a pretty wide powerband with no shifting. That could be a threat if I ever put some real tires on it or adjusted the alignment. ..... Oh yeah, I'd need to learn to drive better too!
Anyway, a zero hit would not be fair to others for a machine that does 0-60 in 5 seconds. Maybe like a point for every KW measured over 60 for the EVs. That would put my motor at about 100 points for a total of 190 points.
Posted by: jimtab Jan 22 2005, 01:09 AM
I'm in, some one has to bring up the rear.... Geez only 40 points, no wonder I'm so f'in slow....
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 22 2005, 01:24 AM
Sounds good. 
I'm in.
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 22 2005, 01:29 AM
I'm in @480
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 22 2005, 02:19 AM
I'll do it twice. One each for PCA & SCCA. It may give some sort of handle on the "level of competition" thing.....neither of which will count for the Worldwide914AXheroaward.....if that is suitable to all.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 22 2005, 03:27 AM
OK, I'm in @ what, about 1000 points?
Screw it, I'll run. 
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 22 2005, 06:07 AM
I am in.
I've totaled everything up and I've got 30 points. So, I guess I'm not in JP's class. 
JP brings up an interesting point. Can you "enter" more than once? By that I mean submit your results separately when you compete with different organizations?
Posted by: jdogg Jan 22 2005, 09:05 AM
I am in!
One comment regarding the TTOD comparison. I believe it should be limited to "real" cars for comparison purposes. Occasionally we get NC State and Duke students showing up with their Formula SAE car (basically SCCA AMod) and they absolutely blast the fastest "real" cars into the weeds by 4 seconds or more depending on the course.
I propose the the TTOD we use shall be based on the fastest "real" car. (open wheeled formula cars disallowed).
I'm in either way, this is a great way to bring the club together!
Posted by: carr914 Jan 22 2005, 10:15 AM
I'm in @ 360+ depending on tires.
T.C.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 01:32 PM
390, Modified ...
Andy
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 01:34 PM
great commentary and suggestions, folks 
please keep it coming, i won't take it personally.
Re. LSD: what do you guys think? i realize that some stock cars were equipped with this, but it still gives a fairly substantial advantage at AX, and most "built" AX cars are equipped with it. I propose we keep it penalized, but i'd like to hear other's opinions.
Re. the number of events: okay, yeah -- 6 is a little low. but i think that no more than eight should be counted so as to include as many competitors as possible. if you do 30 AX's in 05, then you'll have more chances to do better -- we'll still only pull your best 8 (or 6, or 7). PLEASE, let me know how many events we should count.
Re. carbs: yes, a weber equiped car adds 15 points. gotta count the cam, too. As far as "stock carbs", i was thinking of stock /6's.
Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Aaron, I (we) definitely want to include you and others. I included this rule to try and give TTOD some real meaning -- clearly you're at an advantage in the cup if you only run against 10 other cars. BUT, I'd rather you run than this thing be ultra-fair... (which it can't really be anyway). two solutions:
-we lower the minimum number of total entries to 10, or 8
or so. no penalty.
-if there are less than 15 total entries in an event, you are
allowed to submit your time with a handicap coefficent.
e.g. we multiply your points by .9
Whatever the case is -- it's much more important that you are included than that the thing is "fair". PLEASE -- add your opinion to this issue.
Re. EV's : Otmar, you could probably class yourself more fairly than anyone else -- and i'd encourage you to do so. However, in thinking about your specific case, i thought that the weight that your car more than offset the power -- at least until you got some real meaty tires on that beast.
Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): that's fine with me, but you should only be able to count one of those series (your best) towards end of the year points.
Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: yeah -- this is unfair. sumbit the TTOD only for production cars.
PLEASE DEBATE THE ABOVE
thanks, n
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 22 2005, 01:44 PM
Nice!
Hows about four classes though???
Stock, 0-74
improved 75-199
modified 200-349
super modified 350+
I dono.. just a thought
Like the idea though..
Andrew
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 22 2005, 02:03 PM
Re. LSD: Keep the extra points for LSD
Re. the number of events: For the highest number of people to be able to participate, I think that it should be kept low. Here in New England, we have a short season usually six to seven months. Most organizations around here only run once a month.
Re. carbs: Yes. Points for carbs on 4-cylinder cars. I'm not sure about non-stock carbs on stock 6-cylinder cars.
Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Lower the number of entries to ten. Then, if less than ten cars run, hit 'em with an handicap.
Re. EV's : I think we should reserve the right to retroactively deduct points from Otmar if we find that he is consistently kicking out butts.
Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): If we allow dual entries, the points should never be mixed. If you declare upfront that you will be running one PCA and one SCCA, you can't at a later time take the highest six (or whatever number) from both groups. However, if you don't declare that you are running with two or more separate groups, your highest six (or whatever number) will be your points.
Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: Production cars only.
Posted by: Otmar Jan 22 2005, 02:18 PM
| QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 01:03 PM) |
Re. EV's : I think we should reserve the right to retroactively deduct points from Otmar if we find that he is consistently kicking out butts. |
That sounds fair to me. (except I think you might want to add, not deduct)
It will be interesting to see where in the pack I end up.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 02:21 PM
thanks, paul. we're on the same page.
If everyone could please do as Paul has done above, it would helpful. Please raise any other issues, as well. Thanks, n
Posted by: McMark Jan 22 2005, 02:21 PM
I would expect this year to be a trial run and that the rules will be in a constant state of flux. I would expect these rule changes to alter peoples rankings. I propose that there be no prizes this year since this is a "dry run".
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 22 2005, 02:36 PM
| QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 01:03 PM) |
| Re. carbs: Yes. Points for carbs on 4-cylinder cars. I'm not sure about non-stock carbs on stock 6-cylinder cars. |
thats a tuff one. the only NON STOCK carb is the PMO for 911 motors. who can say if your motor originally had webers,zeniths,solexes
| QUOTE |
| e. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Lower the number of entries to ten. Then, if less than ten cars run, hit 'em with an handicap. |
im down with that. a 90 percent yeild as a handicap should be okay.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 02:57 PM
| QUOTE |
| Re. LSD: |
| QUOTE |
| Re. the number of events: |
| QUOTE |
| Re. carbs: |
| QUOTE |
| Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: |
| QUOTE |
| Re. EV's : |
| QUOTE |
| Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): |
| QUOTE |
| Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: |
Andy
Posted by: grantsfo Jan 22 2005, 04:07 PM
| QUOTE (Otmar @ Jan 21 2005, 10:50 PM) |
| I'm tempted, might just be in. I wonder if this would get me out to more than one AX a year? I know there are only few of us EVs , but if we do well we'll need to look into more of a point penalty for Electrics. My 914 may weigh 3000 lbs, but it puts out over 200 HP over a pretty wide powerband with no shifting. That could be a threat if I ever put some real tires on it or adjusted the alignment. ..... Oh yeah, I'd need to learn to drive better too! Anyway, a zero hit would not be fair to others for a machine that does 0-60 in 5 seconds. Maybe like a point for every KW measured over 60 for the EVs. That would put my motor at about 100 points for a total of 190 points. |
Thats what I thought when you drove at WCC AX last year. If you get some tires under that thing you would be very fast regardless of the 3000lbs. So I think you should only penalized if you run r compound or tires bigger than 205.
Not many of us can burn rubber in 3rd gear!
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 04:07 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Jan 22 2005, 11:44 AM) |
| Hows about four classes though??? Stock, 0-74 improved 75-199 modified 200-349 super modified 350+ |
i suppose i'm open to this. let's see how many competitors we have, though -- we need to make sure that we have enough in each class to really make for some competition. i say we keep it to three for now. maybe four in the future.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 04:20 PM
otmar, class your self dude. honestly, i think that none of us have much of an idea. but we do know that your car would be a true MENACE with some wide wheels, slicks, and stiffening!
re. aaron's situation of low AX turnout, i like what andy et al suggested. i'd modify it slightly:
Minimum Total entries MUST be 5.
5-10 total entries, handicap by .8
11-15 total entries, handicap by .9
16-20 total entries, handicap by .95
21+ total entries, no handicap.
i think this is fair. aaron -- is this agreeable to you?
TTOD for production-based cars only. This rule should pretty much ONLY come up in SCCA for classes like Amod. a tube-frame 911 rocket at the PCA is still production-based, sorry. PCA exhibition classes (factory race cars or sim.) may also be an issue, however, and should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 04:39 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Jan 22 2005, 12:21 PM) |
| I propose that there be no prizes this year since this is a "dry run". |
yeah -- probably best if bragging right only this first run. however, if everyone wanted to pay a fee to play, end of the year prizes would be feasible (someone else would have to organize that part of it).
the other thing i can think of: switching classes mid-season
alot of our cars are in a constant states of improvement -- and, as such, i say that we allow mid-season class changes. HOWEVER, scores will be tallied for the highest (i.e. most competitive) class that you raced in that season. e.g.
because a competitor is a freak who upgrades his car even more often than trekkor*, this competitor runs:
2 races in stock: 84 & 86 points
3 races in improved: 89, 91 & 94 points
2 races in modified: 93 & 98 points.
this competitors total score for the season would be 551 (best 6 of 7 scores added together), and this would count only towards end of the year standings in the modified class.
also re. LSD
i say we reduce the points to +40
*p.s. trekkor, sorry about my points system putting you in modified! but, at least i can say i didn't construct the system around my car -- at 270 points, i'll be running with you!
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 06:12 PM
Front page Rules/Classes have been updated.
one more thing:
Re. Tires:
as ubiquitous and sticky as Falken Azenis are, should we specifically target them for an additional 40 or 50 points? this has, over the past couple years, been a "loophole", so to speak, in stock classes. It is commonly accepted that despite their "claimed" treadwear rating, they are in fact stickier than a 100TW tire -- though they are not as sticky as a victoracer, and far from a hoosier.
I'm more than happy keeping them unpenalized, just looking to put it to the group. Please speak up.
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 22 2005, 06:18 PM
Our PCA AXs are runwhatchabrung, but seldom has anything too radical.
SCCA has everything.....open wheel, D sports racers, ....ah...stuff without doors, so the doorslammers only rule is gud.
I'll go with PCA AXs for counting points......just to keep things even , but keep track of the SCCA events.
Posted by: bwilless Jan 22 2005, 06:24 PM
I'm in. Put me in the Modified class.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 07:14 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 22 2005, 04:12 PM) |
| as ubiquitous and sticky as Falken Azenis are, should we specifically target them for an additional 40 or 50 points? |
yes ...
compared to good street tires, you can gain anywhere from 2 to 4 seconds by switching to falkens.
i think we need to take care of those ...
Andy
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 07:38 PM
thanks, andy. i've updated the rules to reflect this -- please speak up if you disagree with this rule!
i'll leave debate open on these rules until next week, afterwhich things will be nailed down more or less, and I'll begin taking competitor's information.
meanwhile...
i'd like to have two other volunteers to form a '914cup committee' of 3 total. the purpose of this committee would be to have a panel to decide on rule/class changes mid-season, or to otherwise interpret and make decisions fairly. there's no need for this thing to become too 'formalized' and stiff, but neither should it be run seat-of-the-pants-style, or "what-I-say-goes".
preferably, one would be an admin who is also willing to set up a '914cup' reference page listing the rules and classes. someone with SCCA experience might be helpful, as well. i'm still happy to run the spreadsheet and essentially admin this thing, continually updating a (nailed?) thread with current standings of all competitors.
let me know if your interested in this, and keep the input on rules/classes coming!
n
Posted by: trekkor Jan 22 2005, 08:03 PM
I'm a freak...Look away I'm hideous 
I *think* my mods are done for now...
KT
Posted by: jimtab Jan 22 2005, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 22 2005, 12:57 PM) | ||||||||||||||
Andy |
Andy, you're so deep....
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 22 2005, 09:49 PM
Hmmm....
I get whacked with 50 points for my Falkens....
I can deal with that. I'm now at a total of 80 points, still in Stock Class.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 07:49 PM) |
| Hmmm.... I get whacked with 50 points for my Falkens.... I can deal with that. I'm now at a total of 80 points, still in Stock Class. |
good. my goal re. the falken azeni rule was that they would only knock you into improved if you had stiffer suspension AND a non-stock sway bar. (or a bigger engine, etc.)....
with falkens, a 2.0, and a stock suspension w/ stock sway, one could be pretty damn competitive in stock. or falkens, a 1.7, and some other upgrades....
HOWEVER, if you have falkens, stiff springs, and a big sway, you belong in improved, IMHO.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 22 2005, 06:03 PM) |
| I *think* my mods are done for now... |
lmfao.... somehow i don't believe you! if this new engine is a fast as randal and you say, then i give you until summer before you start seriously considering putting some more tire on the ground...
and then it's flares, 5-lug, wheels and slicks.....
you've got a sickness, dude -- and the only way out is through.
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 22 2005, 10:09 PM
So would I be stock or Improved running adjustable Koin's, stock front & rear bar, falkens, in a 70 with a 74 2.0L with euro P&C's? I would say improved since euro P&C's. I guess that brings my points to +95.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 10:24 PM
i only see 80 points based on that info. tires=50 engine=30 what else is there?
if, say, you have a header, then you would be running at (essentially defining) the outer limits of stock. that's fine -- no need to penalize yourself unecessarily.
in any case, my intuition is to NOT penalize based on compression...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 10:46 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 22 2005, 05:38 PM) |
| i'd like to have two other volunteers to form a '914cup committee' of 3 total. |
alright, i take the bait ... i'll create/update the "914 Cup" webpage ...
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 10:47 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 22 2005, 08:24 PM) |
| in any case, my intuition is to NOT penalize based on compression... |
having to pay for race-gas is penalty enough ... Andy
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 11:10 PM
Awesome Andy -- thanks!
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 23 2005, 01:24 AM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 22 2005, 08:06 PM) | ||
lmfao.... somehow i don't believe you! if this new engine is a fast as randal and you say, then i give you until summer before you start seriously considering putting some more tire on the ground... and then it's flares, 5-lug, wheels and slicks..... you've got a sickness, dude -- and the only way out is through. |
I'm sure Trekkor is happy with his new found hp. I figure it will keep him happy..... for 6 months max
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 23 2005, 07:28 AM
Nathan put me in for one of the board members you mentioned.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 10:51 AM
perfect. done.
thanks joe!
Posted by: trekkor Jan 23 2005, 10:56 AM
Do you have a thread with the names and classes of all who are going to play?
KT
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 11:07 AM
no, not even taking official entries yet -- although we've got 20 or so just based on this thread.
i want club members to kick these rules around a bit longer (into this week), after which we'll begin taking entries setting this thing up 'officially'.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 23 2005, 12:28 PM
im in...improved...190
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 12:43 PM
looks good, paul -- thanks!
i expect more people may be interested eventually.. just in this region: randal, jenny, demick, etc....
one thing: when we arrange this thing officially, i think we'll need everyone to submit their class-points only -- not their final presumed class. this allows us not only the possibility of running a PAX-type system concurrently, but also the possibility of a more even distribution between classes. (i'm thinking that stock should stay 0-99 points; but the line between improved and modified could be moved up or down in order to create roughly the same # of entries in those two classes).
but, these are just ideas...
nathan breitling (PCA) 270 points
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 23 2005, 01:11 PM
im winning the improved class already!
Posted by: Dave-O Jan 23 2005, 06:00 PM
I will speak for the Minneapolis area AXers. I'm sure Dave will chime in if i miss judged his points, I think he's busy moving into a new house.
David Hildebrandt (Dave-O)
Stock class (95 points)
Dave Parsons (OttoX914)
Improved (225 points)
We will also have at least one more 914, i'll keep you posted.
David
Posted by: one914racer Jan 23 2005, 06:13 PM
lets goooooo
modified 360 points
Posted by: xsboost90 Jan 23 2005, 06:40 PM
looks like im in at 115 -improved! w/ cam/springs/swaybar
Posted by: Demick Jan 23 2005, 07:01 PM
I'm in.
225 pts
Demick
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 23 2005, 07:38 PM
Count me in on these shenanegans as well.
Put me in with Paul Heery. I'm about 80 points.
Oh, wait... no I guess I'm about 285.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 23 2005, 08:00 PM
OK, I was only kidding about the 1000 points.
I just added it up and came up with 405. Might go up after some suspension improvements.
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 23 2005, 08:06 PM
The ulfer says: "Yum, yum, 10 cars in Modified. I need to feed" 
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 23 2005, 08:14 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 23 2005, 08:06 PM) |
| The ulfer says: "Yum, yum, 10 cars in Modified. I need to feed" |
Your table is waiting sir. Would you like a nice Chianti with your meal?
What does lower than stock gearing mean? My fifth gear is "stock". It just spins where third use to.
Shall I penalize myself another 30 points?
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 08:20 PM
although i wasn't specifically thinking about that particular mod -- i do think that counts as lower-than-stock gearing. a lower third gear is a definite advantage at AX.
but i'd like to hear others' input. perhaps 20 points is too much penalty? [edit]
ALSO, let's try not to get too attached to the current class distribution. i think there's a chance that we may raise the improved/modified boundary just a bit; or, as andrew suggested early on, that we may create a super-modified class. the purpose of either scenario would be to create as much fair competition as possible in each class.
though it's perhaps ambitious, i don't think that it's unrealistic to have 40-50 competitors in this thing. such a number would sustain 4 classes.
that said, JP -- you'll definitely be in the highest class. best bring your appetite, indeed.
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 23 2005, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 23 2005, 08:20 PM) |
| although i wasn't specifically thinking about that particular mod -- but i'd like to hear others' input. perhaps 30 points is too much penalty? |
Actually, it's listed at 20 points.
Still seems a lil' high to me.
Honest fellers, thang just barely works half the time.
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 23 2005, 08:37 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 23 2005, 08:20 PM) |
| we may create a super-modified class. the purpose of either scenario would be to create as much fair competition as possible in each class. though it's perhaps ambitious, i don't think that it's unrealistic to have 40-50 competitors in this thing. such a number would sustain 4 classes. |
What exactly do your class points signify, other than your car classification?
Are you car class points entered as an equasion factor against your AX points within your "class"?
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 08:39 PM
i think it should at least be a 15 point penalty. you're adding torque (albeit in one gear, in your particular case). displacement moves in steps of 15 points, so i can concede that same number to gearing. other? 15pts? 20pts? 0 pts?
dudn't matter if it werks or not.... 
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 08:47 PM
in reverse order:
| QUOTE |
| Are you car class points entered as an equasion factor against your AX points within your "class"? |
No.
| QUOTE |
| What exactly do your class points signify, other than your car classification? |
only the level of development of your car -- which in turn is used for classing (stock, improved, modified) AND POSSIBLY an additional PAX-index system, where each car would take a handicap based specifically on their car's points; as a more "pure" drivers' competition.
so, if we run such an additional PAX index, it WOULD matter whether you are at 285 or 305 points -- regardless of the fact that either puts you in modified.
does this make sense?
Posted by: trekkor Jan 23 2005, 09:21 PM
Nice line up of drivers.
Why does the ULFster always have to be hungry, why?
Great job to get this off the ground.
914 CUP is here!
KT
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 23 2005, 09:46 PM
I think 6 events is a good number to work with. Without the 914 Cup I would have entered only a few auto-crosses this year. This competition will give me a reason to go out and play a little more.
On the Tire width points - Instead of a flat 30 points for over 205's, how about xx points for tire size 2xx? Example: If you are running 225's (on the back) you would add 25 points. If you have 245's you get 45 points.
It wouldn't affect the scoring, but I would enjoy seeing what SCCA or PCA class everybody is running in.
In the 914 Club auto-X at the WCC last year, TTOD was Bill (914 cats) in the race/modified class. I was 2nd place in that class. If I remember, the top 3 guys in the improved class were faster than me. I have since sold that race car. This year I have a different car. It will be fun to see how I end up finishing in this new format.
I figure my total point are 205. That puts me in the Improved class.
Wanna make a side bet Aaron?
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 23 2005, 09:46 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 23 2005, 08:47 PM) |
| only the level of development of your car -- which in turn is used for classing (stock, improved, modified) AND POSSIBLY an additional PAX-index system, where each car would take a handicap based specifically on their car's points; as a more "pure" drivers' competition. so, if we run such an additional PAX index, it WOULD matter whether you are at 285 or 305 points -- regardless of the fact that either puts you in modified. does this make sense? |
Makes sense to me.
Gentlemen....Start your Engines...
Except for Otmar.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 10:13 PM
| QUOTE (VegasRacer @ Jan 23 2005, 07:46 PM) |
| On the Tire width points - Instead of a flat 30 points for over 205's, how about xx points for tire size 2xx? Example: If you are running 225's (on the back) you would add 25 points. If you have 245's you get 45 points. |
Okay. Two issues we need feedback on. If no feedback then the 914cup committe will decide
Issue #1
Tire Width:
proposal: instead of a flat 30 point penalty for tire sizes, we pro-rate the penalty.
(modified from suggested, i think we should leave the standard 205's unpenalized, then add 10 points per tire size).
tirewidth (for 305 and less): (2xx – 205) = penalty points
greater than 305 width = 100 penalty points.
i.e. :
205 or less = +0
215 = +10
225 = +20
235 = +30
etc....
305 or greater = +100
For those running slicks in non-standard tire size, convert sizes and place yourself.
All Tire Width penalties are based on the widest tire run on car. In other words, a competitor with 225 rear's and 215 front's will add penalties based off the 225's, i.e. 20 points.
personally, i'm in favor of this.
Issue #2
non-stock gearing
current penalty is 20 points. should this be adjusted to 15? to 30? to 0?
personally, i'm in favor of a minimum of 15 points, preferably 20.
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 23 2005, 10:27 PM
| QUOTE |
| So would I be stock or Improved running adjustable Koin's, stock front & rear bar, falkens, in a 70 with a 74 2.0L with euro P&C's? I would say improved since euro P&C's. I guess that brings my points to +95. |
| QUOTE |
| i only see 80 points based on that info. tires=50 engine=30 what else is there? if, say, you have a header, then you would be running at (essentially defining) the outer limits of stock. that's fine -- no need to penalize yourself unecessarily. in any case, my intuition is to NOT penalize based on compression... |
OK, so the euro P&C's doesn't change my displacement to more than 2.0L? If this is true then I would only be at 80 points not 95. I was thinking 50 for the falkens & 45 for the not stock 2.0L, but if the euro P&C doesn't matter then I am 80 points with the current rules.
| QUOTE |
| proposal: instead of a flat 30 point penalty for tire sizes, we pro-rate the penalty |
| QUOTE |
| current penalty is 20 points. should this be adjusted to 15? to 30? to 0? |
I think 15 is fair.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 10:36 PM
Garold: nope. displacement is still 2.0
you're at 80 -- now you've got headroom for a header!
thanks for the input, keep it coming in, folks!
n
Posted by: jimtab Jan 23 2005, 10:50 PM
Sorry guys, braindead, forgot to add in the rear springs please add 30 to my total, I'm so in touch with my blondness....
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 23 2005, 10:54 PM
I think the "super modified" would be more fair.
Anyone running slicks should be there regardless, IMO
Change the Modified maximum to 350 pts. or so.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 23 2005, 11:12 PM
Hey, count me in for sure!
Dave-O, you were right on the money w/my points, at 225, however when I was added to the "official" list, I got typo'd at 255. If the list-master could correct that, much appreciated.
?'s and comments for those in charge. Any additional handicaps for HUGE paddocks? Our local auto cross club puts on maybe a dozen events in a year, and maybe 1 or 2 will draw LESS than 100 cars. We had a couple last season that closed the registration at 150, and had a waiting list. The possibility of having a personal time closer to the TTOD is much better in a 15 car draw than a 150 car draw.
And Dave-O, yes, the house is coming along. Carpet goes in mon and tue for the upper level, so I had to have all my electrical and all the new custom milled base and door trim in by tonight. (yawn).
As far as # of events to qualify for the 914 cup, 6 sounds good. In our club, we take your best 4 of 7 possible point scoring events to add up for the season ending points race. Not everyone may have the time avalible or events avalible to make 6 in a season, so if anything, I think less than 6 would be better than more.
Also, can I compete twice in this 914 cup, driving in the same events, but in 2 different 914's? A friend of mine is picking up a 490 point 4 cyl beast that we plan to co-drive for the season so I can help him get it set up. So, can I score points in this 914 cup deal while driving the same events, just in 2 different cars? If so, add me to the list for 225 and 490 point cars.
Posted by: nine14cats Jan 23 2005, 11:18 PM
Hi Nathan,
Count Doris and I in.....
Doris Pickering
Bill Pickering (aka "nine14cats")
1974 914-6 3.6
545 points as the rules now state.....
class = Modified
Doris wants to know.....Is there a ladies class?
Bill P.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 23 2005, 11:25 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jan 23 2005, 10:18 PM) |
| 545 points as the rules now state..... |
Holy shit!
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 23 2005, 11:26 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 23 2005, 08:13 PM) |
| 205 or less = +0 215 = +10 225 = +20 235 = +30 etc.... 305 or greater = +100 |
9" ???
Posted by: nine14cats Jan 23 2005, 11:34 PM
11.5 inch contact patch ALL the way around....
Hoosier Slicks.....23.5x11.5x16's......
Yeah Baby!!!!!.....let's see if I can get this mutha up on 2 wheels like the last car!...
I'm guessing on how much to add for the points on that big of tire....but I can tell you it aint just the tires pushing me up that far....the whole car is modified....
Bill P.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 11:53 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 23 2005, 09:26 PM) | ||
9" ??? |
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html
equivalent to 235's -- you got off easy!
n
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 23 2005, 11:56 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jan 23 2005, 09:34 PM) |
| I'm guessing on how much to add for the points on that big of tire.... |
11.5" = 295
add 90 points.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html
Posted by: McMark Jan 24 2005, 12:05 AM
120 pts. I'm a baby.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 12:05 AM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 23 2005, 08:54 PM) |
| I think the "super modified" would be more fair. Anyone running slicks should be there regardless, IMO Change the Modified maximum to 350 pts. or so. |
JP, I agree with you exactly, and i have a feeling that this is how it will go.
ie.
modified to 349
super-modified 350+
slicks might get a heavier penalty (175 or so) just to be sure to bump those cars in super-mod.
ATTN. EVERYONE: JUST TO BE CLEAR,
THERE WILL BE AN OFFICIAL ENTRY PROCESS IN A WEEK OR SO. I am so stoked that there is so much interest in this thing! plese keep it coming! this thread's main purpose is for everyone to have a voice in which way this thing will go.
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 24 2005, 12:11 AM
I like the super modified class as well.
keeps all the TTOD cars in one class... and away from the "drive the car there, and its in the highest class... shooot forget placing" people...
likin everything so far!
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 12:11 AM
re. the ladies class
i would LOVE for there to be enough women to warrant a ladies class -- of course, as fast as some of our women are, they don't need it! (that sounded bad -- sorry).
i can think of Dorris, Gwen, Birgit, and Jenny in this region.... maybe other regions have similiar #'s?
if there are enough women, then we should definitely consider this. otherwise, i say we give them a positive coeffecient for PAX (like 1.05 or 1.1 or so)....
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 12:14 AM
The ulfster wants to feed on 3.6Ls.....
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 12:17 AM
The ulfster wants to feed on wimmen......I tole em' you don't actually feed on em', you just ......
Posted by: trekkor Jan 24 2005, 12:21 AM
when's feeding time. i wanna see the Ulfster come out all crazy and frantic. 
KT
Posted by: nine14cats Jan 24 2005, 12:29 AM
Ulfster.....beware of 3.6L's bearing close ratio 915's with "special" 1st and 2nd gears tailored for auto-x....
Torque Monsters love to eat Ulfsters!....mmmmmmm good!
Bill P.
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 24 2005, 12:47 AM
Ok, I'll add up my points.
Tires since running 255's rear... +50
Slicks (depending....) +150 or not...
Tortionbars, rear springs/pearches, +40
Stripped interior/race seats +30
Fiberglass front bump. +20
V8 +45
Cam +20
Intake +15
So depending on weather or not I run slicks... 220 or 370
Improved and supermodified...
EDIT: due to post beneith this...
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 12:58 AM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Jan 23 2005, 10:47 PM) |
| Headers +15 (does this count on v8's? I read exhaust.. but not headers...) |
Don't count the headers. it's assumed in the conversion that this will be custom.
i clarified this rule on the front page just now.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 24 2005, 01:03 AM
it may be just me.... but how can a v8 car be in the same class as a 2.0 4???? doesnt seem logical.... like modified if the minimum conversions should be.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 01:13 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 23 2005, 11:03 PM) |
| it may be just me.... but how can a v8 car be in the same class as a 2.0 4???? doesnt seem logical.... like modified if the minimum conversions should be. |
V8 conversions are all over the board...
the average V8 conversion 914 is NOT a particularly competitive AX car. i've only heard of 2 which were really strong AXers, and both of those would be well into modified or super-modified.
an average Bi or Bp car SHOULD beat the average V8 conversion at an AX.
that said, i'm happy to raise conversion points. what do people think: 75points? remember, V8 cars are adding weight -- and adding that weight higher.
EDIT: i thought about it and i think you're right, aaron. changed V8 conversion to +70, suby/rotary to +75. sorry, andrew!
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 24 2005, 01:24 AM
| QUOTE (ottox914 @ Jan 23 2005, 11:12 PM) |
| Any additional handicaps for HUGE paddocks? Our local auto cross club puts on maybe a dozen events in a year, and maybe 1 or 2 will draw LESS than 100 cars. We had a couple last season that closed the registration at 150, and had a waiting list. The possibility of having a personal time closer to the TTOD is much better in a 15 car draw than a 150 car draw. |
That is a very good point and seems fair.
If we're going to penalize drivers for small paddocks, we should consider handicapping drivers for larger paddocks on a plateau basis.
40-60, a factor of __? 61-80, __? 81-100__?
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 01:36 AM
Hay, V8s should be -75 points
The field size issue makes this get rather complicated. IMO, we shouldn't get into that. Nathan is trying to make this as simple as possible, me thinks.
If you really want to get into that, your PAX index (which we don't do at our PCA) is the way to go. This is for fun (despite what the ulfster thinks) and our benevolent dictator is doin' fine. Consider this a trial year.
Posted by: trekkor Jan 24 2005, 01:44 AM
Hmmm... 
Most GGR events pull in 120+ drivers at Alameda.
I plan on being in the top 10-20. 
KT
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 24 2005, 01:54 AM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 24 2005, 01:36 AM) |
| The field size issue makes this get rather complicated. IMO, we shouldn't get into that. Nathan is trying to make this as simple as possible, me thinks. |
But we are already doing this on the other end of the scale.
I don't see what is complicated about 2-3 group size categories on the larger end while we have 3 group size categories on the smaller end.
This is certainly for fun, but we're all trying to think ahead and make it as fair as possible across the board. Correct?
You send your time in, the TTOD, and paddock size. Factors are applied for the short end and long end of the stick. Simple. No big deal.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 01:55 AM
thought about this myself, and dismissed it at first because of it seemed to make scoring too "fussy" and inelegant. but later, we had to create penalty rules to make sure the riverside pca guys were included (who apparently have freakishly low turn out).
i feel like we can have that particular penalty rule stand without sliding down the statistical slope...
I don't think i support this, but to be clear:
SUCH A SYSTEM DOES MAKE THE 914CUP MORE FAIR, AT THE PRICE OF SIMPLICITY.
I am happy to admin either scenario.
What do people want?
Vote on one:
1. just the present penalty for low-attendance events
2. A sliding scale penalty/handicap system depending on paddock size
e.g.
100+ total entries = 1.0 (no penalty)
90-99 = .99
80-89 = .98
70-79 = .97
60-69 = .96
50-59 = .95
40-49 = .94
30-39 = .93
20-29 = .92
15-19 entries = .91
10-14 entries = .9
5-9 entries = .8
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 02:10 AM
At SCCA we run between 110 & 175.....avg about 140 (WAG)......Don't fit the scale too well. Fairness gets complicated, eh.?....but I'll vote with the majority.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 02:55 AM
yeah, fairness is always so complicated!
shoot, i'll go for it, though. as trekkor said -- we usually have high turnouts out here, so i'm happy to penalize most everyone else but me!
my concern is more than the added complexity of the system (which isn't at all great) -- i simply want everyone to have a good time. i really DON'T want people in smaller regions getting discouraged or feeling like they "don't have a chance".
there is also one additional solution: we could take (require) field size in each submission and try both systems out simultaneously.
Posted by: eric914 Jan 24 2005, 07:53 AM
Sounds like a good excuse to get out to as many events as I can, that is if my car is running by then.
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 24 2005, 07:58 AM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 24 2005, 12:10 AM) |
| At SCCA we run between 110 & 175.....avg about 140 (WAG)......Don't fit the scale too well. Fairness gets complicated, eh.?....but I'll vote with the majority. :D |
We usually have between 40 & 60 in our region also. It really doesn't matter to me, I'll vote with the majority also.
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 24 2005, 08:37 AM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 02:55 AM) |
| shoot, i'll go for it, though. as trekkor said -- we usually have high turnouts out here, so i'm happy to penalize most everyone else but me! my concern is more than the added complexity of the system (which isn't at all great) -- i simply want everyone to have a good time. i really DON'T want people in smaller regions getting discouraged or feeling like they "don't have a chance". |
Since my SCCA driver turnout is usually around 60 cars, it will penalize me for the larger groups. If I race with PCA I will be penalized even more as a smaller group - so I gain nothing
BUT, it still just seems to be a more accurate and fair accounting as best we can make it.
I don't want those in smaller fields to be discouraged as well, but won't those in larger fields be discouraged? It doesn't matter to me, but I just had a feeling it might matter to others.
Whatever the majority or board decides, is fine and dandy with me.
When do we receive our 914CUP car decals?
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 24 2005, 08:49 AM
This is so simple so listen up.
"if you want to win the 914 cup Drive faster" Don't make difficult rules so you can weasel in and appear to be fast.
Nathan amazes me with his patience 
I work on the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid. Let's just drive the cars post your results and see what happens. Not like we are competing for $$$$ or anything else material.
I recommend we freeze the rules as they are and run it. If I had a 51% vote I woulda froze the rules after page 2. or High noon Saturday past.
Posted by: URY914 Jan 24 2005, 08:57 AM
I'm in.
I only came up with 375 points but I should add another 100 to make things fair.
Paul
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 24 2005, 08:59 AM
| QUOTE |
| 2. A sliding scale penalty/handicap system depending on paddock size e.g. 100+ total entries = 1.0 (no penalty) 90-99 = .99 80-89 = .98 70-79 = .97 60-69 = .96 50-59 = .95 40-49 = .94 30-39 = .93 20-29 = .92 15-19 entries = .91 10-14 entries = .9 5-9 entries = .8 |
I have to voice an extremely strong objection to this.
One of the groups that I compete with limits the field to the first 75 drivers. Of those 75 spots, they reserve a number for "board members". Well, three of those board members also happen to be National Champions. So, if I compete in one of these events I'm whacked 3% because of field size and then my time is calculated against one of the three fastest guys in the country.
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 24 2005, 09:03 AM
I dont mind the added points...
Im still with aaron!!! Hahahahha
245 baby... 
Really doesnt matter to me. Want to bump me up another 5 points I would still be fine with that...
Aaron.. Keep in mind you got 300 lbs over me, and sticker tires. You'd probably get better times than me on an autox course...
Posted by: URY914 Jan 24 2005, 09:15 AM
Add one point for every pound your car is under the stock weight.
I just added 800 points
Paul
Posted by: jdogg Jan 24 2005, 09:20 AM
I am coming in at 215-235 points, depending on my tire decision for next year. Improved class for me, please.
Great suggestions so far, I feel we are really close to a ruleset as it sits now.
Posted by: carr914 Jan 24 2005, 09:22 AM
Paul, I was wondering when you were going to be heard from. I was beginning to to think you were sandbagging us.
T.C.
Posted by: URY914 Jan 24 2005, 09:27 AM
| QUOTE (carr914 @ Jan 24 2005, 07:22 AM) |
| Paul, I was wondering when you were going to be heard from. I was beginning to to think you were sandbagging us. T.C. |
Paul
Posted by: Demick Jan 24 2005, 10:31 AM
Some simple advise for Nathan:
The more complicated this gets, the more work it is for you, and the more complaints you will get from the participants.
I think it is good to get everyones feedback like this, but don't get too caught up in trying to appease everyone. The bottom line is, there is no possible way to make this a 'fair' competition.
It doesn't matter how complicated or simple the rules are, there will always be cars that have an advantage, and ones that are disadvantaged. There is no way around that.
The most important thing that everyone realize, is that this is a FUN competition, not a FAIR competition.
You will have complaints from some people - that is a given. But I think the simpler the rules are, the less complaints you will have.
I also think the scorekeeping is going to be much more involved than you think. I'd keep things as simple as possible.
Demick
Posted by: Demick Jan 24 2005, 10:38 AM
One scoring recommendation:
Since different participants will be on completely different schedules, it might make sense to have the standings based on average points, rather than total points. With total points, the people who have run the most events will be in the lead all season long, even if their score isn't as high. With average points, it should keep the standings more interesting during the season. Everyone will see how they stand no matter if they have run 5 events or 2 events to date.
But I agree that for season final standings, you pick the top 6 events for each person. At that point, whether you average the points or total the points won't matter - the results will be the same.
Demick
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 24 2005, 11:13 AM
| QUOTE (Demick @ Jan 24 2005, 10:31 AM) |
| I think it is good to get everyones feedback like this, but don't get too caught up in trying to appease everyone. The bottom line is, there is no possible way to make this a 'fair' competition. It doesn't matter how complicated or simple the rules are, there will always be cars that have an advantage, and ones that are disadvantaged. There is no way around that. The most important thing that everyone realize, is that this is a FUN competition, not a FAIR competition. |
Well... I think there is wisdom in what Demick has posted.
It appears that the sliding scale may present at least as many issues as it resolves, so let's at least keep it simple.
As I mentioned earlier, the sliding scale would only work against me, so as far as my participation goes, personally, I have no problem with the rules as they presently stand.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 24 2005, 11:29 AM
I'm glad others have added some input on large fields vs small. I didn't want to start a big flap over that, but noted that there were some "modifiers" for the smaller grids, and wondered about the larger ones.
I agree with what others have said- keep it simple. This race within a race will be pretty cool, and will also never be fair to everyone. Unless we become like some clubs and have 1 class for each driver, (or so it seems) so everyone gets a CPT (cheep plastic trophy) at the end of the year, we'll never please everyone.
That being said, I to would go with whatever our "event master" decides regarding grid size and and adjustment factors.
I would also agree w/Demick on the average scoring during the season to keep the points totals more easily compared between drivers, and using the top 4,5,6 (or whatever the event master decides on) events for the end of the season totals.
2 more ?'s for the event master- have my points been changed from 255 to 225 on the semi-official list of entrants, and, can I run 2 cars in 2 different classes for the cup?
I like the idea of 914CUP stickers, or windshield banners.
Great idea, this cup thing. Thanks!
Posted by: Jenny Jan 24 2005, 11:54 AM
I'll play. But I'll need someone to class my car for me. And I'll need a running car.
I'm signed up for an AX school next month, so watch out guys!!
Jen
Posted by: Dman Jan 24 2005, 12:03 PM
I'm in! Looks like I have some breathing room in improved class at 205
Posted by: Randal Jan 24 2005, 12:07 PM
What are the points for 23 X 9.5 X 15 slicks?
And F/G rocker panels worth 10 each?
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 12:12 PM
| QUOTE (ottox914 @ Jan 24 2005, 09:29 AM) |
| can I run 2 cars in 2 different classes for the cup? |
yup. you can. just submit two entries.
thanks paul for tallying things up so people can see where things stand.
other paul: thanks for adding some "custom" points to your rig -- you should definitely be in S-Mod.
demick: thanks for your concern, and for your advice. believe me, i'm going to strive to make this thing as autonomous as possible once it gets off the ground. i will not guarente immediate updates to mid-season rankings, but i can manage weekly or so.
the rules re. field size as they exist on page one will stand. thanks for the concensus.
re. mid season standings based on an average: thought about this. i'd like mid-season scores to show the average of the competitor's 6 best submissions (or their raw average until they get more than 6 submission), as well as other bits of info...
i won't be arranging decals, tshirts, etc., but i like the idea. someone else needs to take charge of this if they want it. talk to sean. i'd be in for a decal!
your benevolent dictator, n
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 12:25 PM
| QUOTE (Randal @ Jan 24 2005, 10:07 AM) |
| |
| QUOTE |
| What are the points for 23 X 9.5 X 15 slicks? |
see link on an earlier page -- i believe that a 9.5 should be about a 235-245, but do double check this...
| QUOTE |
| And F/G rocker panels worth 10 each? |
technically, yeah. sorry -- it's really crude but i wasn't about to set different points for different panels.
Jenny-Dman, awesome!
Posted by: Randal Jan 24 2005, 12:51 PM
As it currently sits:
435 points, assuming the default number, i.e., 150 points for slicks.
Super Modified.
Randal
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 24 2005, 12:52 PM
Guess I better play too I figured 230 points for the yellow car.
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 24 2005, 01:11 PM
Paul,
The next time you update, can you add 15 points for my non-stock tranny gear, which will give me a total of 300? Thanks.
Nathan,
Thanks for your efforts and level headedness.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 24 2005, 02:25 PM
QUOTE (ottox914 @ Jan 24 2005, 09:29 AM)
can I run 2 cars in 2 different classes for the cup?
yup. you can. just submit two entries.
Consider this 2 entries, until such time as the "official" entry forms are ready:
225 pts for car #1 -improved.
490 pts for car #2 -S mod.
List meister, please update.
thank you-
David Parsons, aka "ottox914"
Posted by: mike_the_man Jan 24 2005, 02:49 PM
I'm in, assuming I can play. I live in Sasktchewan, Canada, and we have no PCA or SCCA events anywhere near here. The only local group that runs autox is called the Queen City Motorsports Association (http://www.qcma.org/). We use the Western Canada Motorsport Association (http://www.wcma.ca/) rules. I'm hoping that this won't be a problem, but let me know.
Looks like I'm in the stock class with +60 points right now, although that may change in the spring with some new tires.
BTW, good work Nathan. This sounds like it will be a load of fun. Is trash talking permited? Cause it's no fun to compete against your friends if there is no trash talking!
Posted by: jdogg Jan 24 2005, 03:01 PM
I would say trash talking is REQUIRED, haha! 
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 03:11 PM
| QUOTE (mike_the_man @ Jan 24 2005, 12:49 PM) |
| I'm in, assuming I can play. I live in Sasktchewan, Canada, and we have no PCA or SCCA events anywhere near here. The only local group that runs autox is called the Queen City Motorsports Association (http://www.qcma.org/). We use the Western Canada Motorsport Association (http://www.wcma.ca/) rules. I'm hoping that this won't be a problem, but let me know. |
You're In!
it's international now!!!
and yes, trash talking is a requirement
!
Posted by: mike_the_man Jan 24 2005, 04:03 PM
Sweet! Despite the fact that I've only driven my teener about 5 times, I'm still pretty sure I'm gonna kick everybody's ass! Ya never know, it could happen!
Posted by: brant Jan 24 2005, 05:24 PM
I won't do enough (maybe none) autox's to play.
but I roughly added my points and end up around 390 or 395...
wow.. thats not too fair considering Joe's cool car (914RS) has a 3.6 with carbon fiber body work..
and I have all metal body work with only a 2.0L
hmmmm....
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 06:03 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 03:24 PM) |
| wow.. thats not too fair considering Joe's cool car (914RS) has a 3.6 with carbon fiber body work.. |
and it may not be. but 914RS should have at least 40-50 points in body work that you don't have, and at least another 50 points in engine that you don't have.
i'm looking over paul's list of the competitors, and for the cars that i'm familiar with, i think they're ranked pretty fairly. except maybe trekkor's car -- i think it needs more points
. and demick needs more points, but that's just cause he drives wicked fast, not because of his car.so, if you end up AXing this year, just be really, really, really fast.
Posted by: brant Jan 24 2005, 06:08 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 05:03 PM) | ||
and it may not be. but 914RS should have at least 40-50 points in body work that you don't have, and at least another 50 points in engine that you don't have. i'm looking over paul's list of the competitors, and for the cars that i'm familiar with, i think they're ranked pretty fairly. except maybe trekkor's car -- i think it needs more points . and demick needs more points, but that's just cause he drives wicked fast, not because of his car.so, if you end up AXing this year, just be really, really, really fast. |
Part of my dilema was those body panels.
I gave myself points for "lightening" because its true that I lightened my doors, bumpers, and rear trunk...
but my panels are still all metal and my fenders are not GT's... (versus carbon fiber and flares)
I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 24 2005, 06:09 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 03:24 PM) |
| wow.. thats not too fair considering Joe's cool car (914RS) has a 3.6 with carbon fiber body work.. |
yupp, i'm in the same boat.
like nine14cats fully raceprepped chassis with a warmed up 3.6 ...
as long as the actual points do matter and not just the class you belong too ...
we'll see how this works out.
Andy
Posted by: brant Jan 24 2005, 06:16 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 24 2005, 05:09 PM) | ||
yupp, i'm in the same boat. like nine14cats fully raceprepped chassis with a warmed up 3.6 ... as long as the actual points do matter and not just the class you belong too ... we'll see how this works out. Andy |
This is absolutely none of my dammnnn business and I won't even be playing.
Plus I really admire Joe's car and think it is beauuutiful..
(I'm only picking on him as an example)
but I kinda like the idea of racing where the primary factor is power to weight..
I know club racing has been talking for years about taking their GT class into a power to weight formula.
maybe for autox it is not as important.. but if there is a straight-away involved in the track.. this makes a huge difference, and it splits up the street (interior'd) cars from the gutted race cars.
Posted by: r_towle Jan 24 2005, 06:34 PM
ouch 440
Posted by: r_towle Jan 24 2005, 06:39 PM
it seems to me that this has been going on for ages.
If you make certain mods in the SCCA for expample, you bump into a class that costs big money to compete in.
If you lighten your car you are moved up a class...in that class you may do lots of other mods and people do all of them....so if you choose to just lighten your doors and bumpers, you will be at the bottom of that class.
This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit.
Rich
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 06:44 PM
andy, get some dot-r's and come play with us in Modified! (and give me a better chance to beat you in Fm!)
power:weight just excludes too many AXers -- too few of us have have ever actually put their cars on a dyno or a scale.
Posted by: brant Jan 24 2005, 06:49 PM
| QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 24 2005, 05:39 PM) |
| it seems to me that this has been going on for ages. If you make certain mods in the SCCA for expample, you bump into a class that costs big money to compete in. If you lighten your car you are moved up a class...in that class you may do lots of other mods and people do all of them....so if you choose to just lighten your doors and bumpers, you will be at the bottom of that class. This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit. Rich |
ABSOLUTELY AGREE...
(its the reason I'm building a new car right now)
Its just that (for example) Andy probably didn't build his car to run 914club rules.
nobody did..
so is power to weight a manner to equalize that ?
Also, I want to add that I'm not trying to be an A-hole.
I think this whole idea is Magnificient and I wish I was able to play. I'm only commenting on the idea... not on the wonderful work people have put into this!
(thanks nathan!)
Posted by: Steve_7x Jan 24 2005, 07:07 PM
I am in ...
I assume Super Modified... but until all the final debates are tallied-up and deciphered... I am not 100% sure of my 605 total.
A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year.
http://sandbox.visualproduce.com/rulcomm_cs/web/rulcomm_evalform.php
While it doesn't support those with V8 and Mazda swaps - I think they can be worked in by assessing an appropriate penalty, just like big engine swaps... or just do it with CC increases etc...
On the other hand if you want to keep this at the fun and simple level, just divide up into larger buckets and don't sweat the details. As an example I ran a fun autocross in 2003, and the class breakout was based on the # of cyclinders and the type of tire (non-R, R and Slicks) you used. This was a one day event with everyone present... It was fun, competitive but not overly so.
Just some random out of the box thoughts...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 24 2005, 07:17 PM
| QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 24 2005, 04:39 PM) |
| This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit. |
thanks for assuming that i haven't read the rules ...
with PCA, bill p. is running in a different class than i do, but in the 914Cup, he runs in the same class i do. it's that simple ...
as i said, that's *not* a big deal as long as the actual points somehow count as well.
i don't think a 350 point "Super Modified" should be treated the same way as a 545 point SM ...
just my 2 cents,
Andy
Posted by: r_towle Jan 24 2005, 07:32 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 24 2005, 05:17 PM) | ||
thanks for assuming that i haven't read the rules ... Andy |
nope. just commenting on Brant and some of his comments. Sounds like the SCCA Production Racing forum guys......lots of time arguing rules...
I would agree that a 350 SM is not equal to a 545 SM
So maybe a few more classes depending upon how many people are involved.
Rich
Posted by: Randal Jan 24 2005, 07:46 PM
| QUOTE |
| A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year. |
Why don't we try something that has been tried and works, like a golf or horse racing handicaps?
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 07:58 PM
Most every AX group I've seen has slick tired cars running in a race car group.......some bring a knife to the gunfight, but that's their problem....and was mine last season.
My car is built for SCCAs F Prepared. As it stands now, Bill would be in E Modified, as would Paul (maybe D Mod)and Joe. Am I crying....nopers, I'm gonna get em'.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 08:13 PM
| QUOTE (Steve_7x @ Jan 24 2005, 05:07 PM) |
| A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year. |
hi steve
glad you're in! i've had a good time watching you run last season -- guys: prepared to get schooled! the ulfster had better be hungry indeed.
i thought about using the proposed ggr points system. as a system for all models of porsche, i think it will do an okay job (jury's still out i suppose -- they've got my 2.0 running against 996 turbos (wtf?)), but i don't think it accounts too particularly well for 914's as a whole. there are somethings that IMHO it penalizes too much, other things not enough. particularly for AX.
i tried to do something more specific 914s, particularly relatively stock and only slightly modified cars.
i'm actually really glad that people are debating this stuff, but it feels like we've got a fair amount of concensus for the rules as they exist on page 1. please: i'd suggest that we focus on tweaking what we've got, as opposed to starting from scratch.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 24 2005, 08:22 PM
If we're using SCCA as a benchmark, my car is DSP, and the second car will be either Emod or Dmod, depending upon if we can loose 100lbs or so. I don't think we'll challenge Paul for the lightest 914 on the planet, but at somewhere just north of 1600lbs and 180-200 or so hp...
Posted by: trekkor Jan 24 2005, 08:27 PM
| QUOTE |
| except maybe trekkor's car -- i think it needs more points |
I've gone over the rules over and over...still 265
I added non-stock cam, too.
BTW, we run a big group with GGR, but half the events I'll run will be at Marina with LPR. Maybe 50 drivers there.
I think it will be fun to see the results after the first couple of months.
KT
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 08:29 PM
i know -- just giving you shit, trek!
yup, i too am interested in seeing what my "marina" vs. "alameda" standings will be.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 24 2005, 09:09 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 05:16 PM) |
| but I kinda like the idea of racing where the primary factor is power to weight.. |
Thanks for the respect, I think.
I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value.
I went back through and added EVERYTHING that could possibly apply to my car (even non-stock cams when the 3.6 does have the factory cams).
I had neglected to add points for FG bumpers and valences. The only other things I could have are non-stock sway bars, short geared tranny (? I have a 915 w/8:31?) and 305 slicks.
How in the f*ck did Steve_7x get to 605!
My new total is 485. Let's make it 500 for good measure.
....and you guys don't even know if I can drive. (actually, I'm a track guy and have very little experience with AX, so you guys are gonna kill me)
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 09:27 PM
| QUOTE (914RS @ Jan 24 2005, 07:09 PM) |
| I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value. |
great, this is the type of feedback i need.
new /6 rules:
Displacement (6 cyl)
2.0 = +45
2.01-2.3 = +60
2.31-2.6 = +75
2.7-2.9 = +90
3.0 = +100
3.2 = +125
3.6+ = +150
Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward.
Posted by: trekkor Jan 24 2005, 09:50 PM
As Demick pointed out in a related thread, any 6 that is not a original 914-6 2.0, has non stock cams. ( unless you are running them , 911t )
KT
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 24 2005, 09:54 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 07:27 PM) |
| Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward. |
"The bottle" will do that for ya
....or was that the other 914 roller skate?The 6 er deal don't matter much, tho. Most are already in S Mod.......and ya gotta dance with the girl that brung ya.
The Hp to weight is fairly importan, but not the determining factor in AX. If that were the case, we'd all go home when the Z06 torque monsters showed up. There are a couple local Z06s that beat me regular....that's cause they're better drivers. The rest are dog meat.
Another guy I can't beat is that "pesky Miata"......no power to speak of, but he drives the wheels off it......a C Street Prepared car ......140-150 hp & 2000lbs.
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 24 2005, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 24 2005, 09:52 AM) |
| "Hey you stupid bastard, you missed me!" |
I wouldn't have put it that way, but I did post my points and class on page 4 of this thread. With the change to tires size points I dropped to 195 points for my car. I'm a bit surprised it isn't more.
| QUOTE |
| and yes, trash talking is a requirement ! |
In that same post I had also proposed a personal challenge to Aaron which he has chosen to ignore. Must be chicken I guess?
One other requirement should be that all competitiors need to post a picture of their cars.
Hey Sean - are you gonna step up and design and produce a 914 Cup decal? I know you have the artistic talent plus the vinal cutter to do the job.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 24 2005, 10:03 PM
OK, I take back the 15 points I gave for good measure and add the fresh 50 points for my 3.6.
New total 535.
JP is right about having to dance with your girl. Mine will be having her first season since the refit, and I think we'll be spending a lot of late nights together in the garage. 
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 10:03 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 24 2005, 07:54 PM) |
| The Hp to weight is fairly importan, but not the determining factor in AX. If that were the case, we'd all go home when the Z06 torque monsters showed up. |
this was my thought, but i wanted someone with more AX experience to speak up.
i think that there is a point in a car's development where adding power gives you (logarhythmically) less and less gain. at some point, it comes down to driver.
hopefully, in competing with each other, this thing will give us each the initiative to get a little faster in our respective regions. that's my goal, at least.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 10:07 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 24 2005, 07:50 PM) |
| As Demick pointed out in a related thread, any 6 that is not a original 914-6 2.0, has non stock cams. ( unless you are running them , 911t ) KT |
correct. thanks trek/demick
if you have e.g. a 3.2 /6, then you've got non-stock cams and non-stock induction in addition to the displacement points
Posted by: trekkor Jan 24 2005, 10:21 PM
I don't know about my induction, however. My engine has the same carbs as a stock SIX. Weber 40 IDA 3C.
KT
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Randal Jan 24 2005, 10:25 PM
Fun reading this discussion.
And, based upon the postings, I finally see the elements to make the perfect handicap for AX.
Power to weight ratio (formalized) handicapped against times.
It would be expensive to do and hard to control, but it would work in a perfect world.
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 24 2005, 10:28 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 08:07 PM) |
| if you have e.g. a 3.2 /6, then you've got non-stock cams and non-stock induction in addition to the displacement points |
If that's the case then you better give me 35 more points.
The FI and Cam I have are stock to the 3.0 motor, but not stock to a 914/6.
I'm not sure but my flywheel is probably lightned so add 5 more.
Make my new total 235.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 10:48 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 24 2005, 08:21 PM) |
| I don't know about my induction, however. My engine has the same carbs as a stock SIX. Weber 40 IDA 3C. KT |
yeah. you're fine on the carbs trek.
as he noted, vegasracer adds points because his FI (and cam) is not stock to a 914/6. doesn't matter that they may be stock to a 1980 SC.
if vegasracer ran trekkor's carbs, he would not be penalized.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 24 2005, 10:50 PM
randal, your posts are cracking me up.
reductio ad absurdum: your car will be handed over to an engineering team to determine classing based on power, gross weight, weight distribution, tire composition analysis, in depth suspension analysis, driver's gross weight, driver's weight distribution, driver's personality (indepth psychoanalysis needed here), etc. etc.
so you might as well show up with a bicycle, you'll have the same chance.
Posted by: Dman Jan 24 2005, 11:45 PM
I have tried to keep up with al the details in this thread and I think the biggest factor is the person behind the wheel. I am sure a good driver can make up for a 100 points in any class.
That being said, since yellow cars are always faster they should be docked at least 100 points! 
Posted by: Steve_7x Jan 25 2005, 01:19 AM
I think 914's stand a good chance at Autocrosses vs Turbo's... especially on those that are shorter twistier... the turbo never gets a chance to spool up. The analogy of bringing a knife to a gunfight... okay a 2004 Twin Turbo is a sword... but just remember the scene in Raiders of the Lost Arc... just takes one bullit ;-)
But I digress. My suggestion was one based on a couple of things... a template that exists and was debated etc...and a form that can be used. Any of the suggestions are good by me... the point is to have fun, and benchrace... where else can grown-ups make car sounds and use their hands indicating a powerslide.
How did I get 600+points... I assumed 350 as a base...
Tires
Competitors running slicks in non-standard tire size must convert sizes and add points accordingly.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html
*Competitors running slicks must run in S-Mod,
at a minimum of 350 points. If the competitor's
class-points do not add up to at least 350 points,
they must nonetheless report 350 points for all
purposes of classing.
Suspension
non-stock rear springs/torsion bars +30
non-stock sway bar +30
Interior
Interior has been substantially gutted and lightened = +20
Race Seat = +10
Body/Frame
car has been lightened by replacing body panels or bumpers with non-stock parts (fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.) = +10 per body panel (4 fenders, both hoods, both bumpers) = 80
car has been stiffened substantially by tying together suspension points (long kits are okay) = +20 - not clear on this... my roll cage ties to the front shock towers so I included
Transmission
LSD = +40
Engine/Flywheel/Exhaust/Induction/etc.
Displacement (4cyl)
2.0 = +30
Non-stock or improved Carbs* = +15
(this includes all dual carbs on T4's)
Cams (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*
non-stock = +20
Flywheel (All Cars):
lightened = +5
Forced Induction (All Cars):
Exhaust (All 4cyl and 6cyl):
headers: +15
= 665 points
So if I don 't baseline with 350 points for cantilever slicks... (23x9x15) - what is the correct tire baseline?
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 25 2005, 01:29 AM
350 isnt a baseline for guys with slicks...
Its just a minumum.... IF you run slicks, your in Smod...
Your at 315 plus your tires.... So you run slicks with (god I dont know what that is... I'll guess 245's...)... and your in at +150 for slicks and +40 for tire width with an overall score of 505 (ish)
That clear that up any?
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 25 2005, 01:32 AM
| QUOTE (Steve_7x @ Jan 24 2005, 11:19 PM) |
| So if I don 't baseline with 350 points for cantilever slicks... (23x9x15) - what is the correct tire baseline? |
no need to assume 350 as a base.
your tires should set you back 180 (150 for tire type; 30 for tire size), then add up the rest and report. but, if it all adds up to less than 350, then you must nonetheless report 350.
i'll clarify chassis stiffening.
lmao about the sword vs the bullet...
Posted by: Randal Jan 25 2005, 05:52 AM
| QUOTE |
| randal, your posts are cracking me up. |
Glad to provide the comedy.
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 25 2005, 06:45 AM
| Stock = 0-99 points | ||
| Improved = 100-250 points | ||
| Modified = 251-349 points | ||
| Super Modified=350+ | ||
| Club ID | Class | Points |
| mike_the_man | Stock | 60 |
| jimtab | Stock | 70 |
| itsa914 | Stock | 80 |
| Paul Heery (PCA) | Stock | 80 |
| Paul Heery (SCCA) | Stock | 80 |
| grantsfo | Stock | 85 |
| David Hildebrandt (Dave-O) | Stock | 95 |
| xsboost90 | Improved | 115 |
| McMark | Improved | 120 |
| Aaron Cox | Improved | 190 |
| roundboy914 | Improved | 200 |
| Dman | Improved | 205 |
| Rough_Rider | Improved | 215 |
| Dave Parsons (OttoX914) – 1 | Improved | 225 |
| Demick | Improved | 225 |
| Joe Ricard | Improved | 230 |
| jdogg | Improved | 235 |
| VegasRacer | Improved | 235 |
| Andyrew | Improved | 245 |
| lagunero | Improved | |
| trekkor | Modified | 265 |
| nathan breitling (PCA) | Modified | 270 |
| joseph222 | Modified | 300 |
| bwilless | Modified | |
| carr914 | Super Modified | 360 |
| one914racer | Super Modified | 360 |
| URY914 | Super Modified | 375 |
| SirAndy | Super Modified | 390 |
| Randal | Super Modified | 435 |
| r_towle | Super Modified | 440 |
| J P Stein (PCA) | Super Modified | 480 |
| J P Stein (SCCA) | Super Modified | 480 |
| Dave Parsons (OttoX914) – 2 | Super Modified | 490 |
| Steve_7x | Super Modified | 505 |
| 914RS | Super Modified | 535 |
| Bill Pickering (aka "nine14cats") | Super Modified | 545 |
| Doris Pickering | Super Modified | 545 |
| lapuwali | ||
| monkei | ||
| Otmar | ||
| Porsche Rescue | ||
| spare time toys |
Here is the latest.
I'm going to throw a suggestion out there to see what people think. What about raising the points required for Super Modified to 400? That would move Andy and Paul with their highly-modded 4s out of the class with the big 6s. And, they could kick Trekkor's butt with his puny six.
Posted by: roundboy914 Jan 25 2005, 07:59 AM
I'm in at 200 pts.
Posted by: trekkor Jan 25 2005, 06:13 PM
I like the 400 pt cutoff for MOD.
Also, A bio thread with car and driver pics and specs would be cool
KT
Attached image(s)
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 25 2005, 06:22 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 25 2005, 04:13 PM) |
| Also, A bio thread with car and driver pics and specs would be cool |
it's in the works ...
be patient, grasshopper ...
Andy
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jan 25 2005, 07:59 PM
The reason I am still a blank is that I don't yet know what I will drive this season. My "fleet" is in transition at the moment. Actually I want JP to lay awake nights worrying about the killer car I am going to buy/build to compensate for my lack of driving skill, thus allowing me to catch him. Is there a car that fast?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 25 2005, 08:02 PM
maybe i should set myself up for modified... less competition there
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jan 25 2005, 08:15 PM
One little note on the car vs driver issue. At our final PCA event last fall a gentleman with more than a little experience from another region showed up with a very nice YELLOW GT3. He finished behind a fuel injected '73 2.0 914 with Hoosiers and Konis.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 25 2005, 08:17 PM
yeah--but what color was the 914?
aaron: do it. i'd love to beat you.
Posted by: trekkor Jan 25 2005, 08:37 PM
Here's what I'm waiting for:
If I get beat by a FOUR it's gonna be, " Ha-ha, FOUR beats SIX! "
When I spank the FOURS silly, 
it'll be " What'd ya expaect, ya got a SIX?"
Hmmmm.....
KT
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 25 2005, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 25 2005, 07:17 PM) |
| yeah--but what color was the 914? aaron: do it. i'd love to beat you. |
send me a header and decklids. ill run circles around you with my stock displacement
oh yeah...the obligatory finger :
Posted by: xitspd Jan 25 2005, 10:34 PM
First of all, I'm in! Are the tire points per tire or per axle? What if you have 255's on the front and 275's on the rear? How would you point that out?
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 25 2005, 11:05 PM
+70 points....
At least thats how I did mine.
Is that correct???
Ie....
I second the above question.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 25 2005, 11:17 PM
yup, +70 points. sorry.
i think i clarified that in the rules, but i'll double check.
class your tires according to your largest tire size (i.e., the rears).
aaron, don't have decklids, but i'm thinking about it. have to do as much as possible to even out the playing field between trekkor and i! i'll be running a basic carbed 2.0 /4. don't worry, losing hurts the most the first time.
and trekkor: i'll be sure to tape my faster time slips all over your car as i'm beating you. i think you'll be taking your time around the course, trying to just enjoy the sound of that sweet, heavy /6.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 25 2005, 11:20 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 25 2005, 10:17 PM) |
| yup, +70 points. sorry. i think i clarified that in the rules, but i'll double check. class your tires according to your largest tire size (i.e., the rears). aaron, don't have decklids, but i'm thinking about it. have to do as much as possible to even out the playing field between trekkor and i! i'll be running a basic carbed 2.0 /4. don't worry, losing hurts the most the first time. and trekkor: i'll be sure to tape my faster time slips all over your car as i'm beating you. i think you'll be taking your time around the course, trying to just enjoy the sound of that sweet, heavy /6. |
dude..... can you say cocky? no worries.... maybe we should put some money on this? but none of this damn handicap
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 26 2005, 12:16 AM
talkin' shit is half the fun dood
i'm down for a friendly wager: you can bet 90cents to my dollar on PAX results, but your points are still handicapped per event per rules since you run w/ such a small group.
i'm up for anything to motivate me to be faster.
Posted by: trekkor Jan 26 2005, 12:26 AM
Nathan, I'm thinking we find a way for you to ride along with me. Thattaway, when I get the hot lap, you can hold my time slip 'til we get back to the paddock.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 26 2005, 12:35 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 25 2005, 10:26 PM) |
| Nathan, I'm thinking we find a way for you to ride along with me. Thattaway, when I get the hot lap, you can hold my time slip 'til we get back to the paddock. |
ouch -- that's a good one, trekkor
Posted by: trekkor Jan 26 2005, 12:48 AM
so, is MOD cutoff at 400 pts?
KT
Posted by: brant Jan 26 2005, 09:10 AM
| QUOTE (Porsche Rescue @ Jan 25 2005, 07:15 PM) |
| One little note on the car vs driver issue. At our final PCA event last fall a gentleman with more than a little experience from another region showed up with a very nice YELLOW GT3. He finished behind a fuel injected '73 2.0 914 with Hoosiers and Konis. |
Also, this is 914 vs 914...
weight makes a big difference.
and don't -4 cars usually beat heavy -6 cars in autox?
Posted by: URY914 Jan 26 2005, 09:29 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the points are to class your car only. Not for any handicapping, correct? Once I've got enough points to be in super mod, it doesn't really matter where in the class I am. I could have 900 points but it won't matter when it comes to scoring.
(forgive me if this has been asked before, but this fricking thing is 10 pages long! )
Thanks, Paul
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 26 2005, 09:39 AM
You are somewhat correct sir.
Points are mostly for classing. However, there are some things that have been thrown into the mix that are also being used to create some type of handicapping (field size).
I agree. Class is class. Once you hit the minimum requirement of points for Super Modified, it doesn't matter how many you have.
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 26 2005, 10:29 AM
OK, let's see if this works.
I threw together a quick spreadsheet with what I think are the current rules for determining classification of cars. It should be pretty simple to use. I also built it so that it is very simple to update as the rules may change as it determines values from lookup tables.
It works with the different versions of Excel that I have access to. However, since it uses VBA for some of the functionality, it won't work with OpenOffice.
If I got any of the rules or calculations wrong, please let me know.
http://914.paulheery.com/points.xls
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 26 2005, 01:03 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 26 2005, 07:29 AM) |
| Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the points are to class your car only. Not for any handicapping, correct? Once I've got enough points to be in super mod, it doesn't really matter where in the class I am. I could have 900 points but it won't matter when it comes to scoring. (forgive me if this has been asked before, but this fricking thing is 10 pages long! ) Thanks, Paul |
hey paul
SMod is SMod, you're right. whether you have 405 or 905 points, you are competing in SMod.
However, we want accurate reportings of points because we're also looking at doing a PAX-index in addition to the main classed-competition -- where each competitor's class-points are used to generate a handicap coefficient to multiply points by. so in that case, it DOES matter whether you have 405 vs 905 points -- even thought both put you in SMod.
other paul: spreadsheet won't unzip for me -- don't know if others are haven't that problem...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 26 2005, 01:11 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 26 2005, 11:03 AM) |
| spreadsheet won't unzip for me -- don't know if others are haven't that problem... |
the BBS software has a bug that adds a linebreak (0x0d 0x0a) to the beginning of attachments.
open the file in a hex-editor and remove the first 2 bytes and it'll work just fine ...
Andy
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 26 2005, 01:30 PM
Or get it directly from here:
http://914.paulheery.com/points.xls
Posted by: URY914 Jan 26 2005, 01:44 PM
Paul, did you copyright this? I'm not going to open it unless you did.
Paul
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 26 2005, 01:44 PM
I can't open either, either.
BTW, can we get this moved to the "sticky" area?
It would be easier to follow Trekkor's "pre whining".
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 26 2005, 02:40 PM
paul heeery: beautiful spread sheet man.
nate dog: do bilsteins with the STOCK adjustable perch count as aftermarket adjustable perches? not a biggie for me - im in improved either way....
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 26 2005, 03:08 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 26 2005, 12:40 PM) |
| nate dog: do bilsteins with the STOCK adjustable perch count as aftermarket adjustable perches? not a biggie for me - im in improved either way.... |
nope. good question though, i'll clarify that in the rules.
the bilsteins's height adjustment is terribly crude, no way you could corner balance off that. we're talking threaded collars or similar here.
paul: looks awesome.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 26 2005, 03:11 PM
Been out of town a bit, just catching up on this thread. Looking at the points totaling more closely, my car #2, borrowed from a friend, was calculated wrong.
180 tires 23 x 15 x 9 slicks
70 suspension
30 interior
20 body- cage
150+ body- lightened/missing panels
55 trans
75 2.45 4 cyl
15 carbs
20 cam
5 flywheel
15 headers.
total 635.
I have never driven anything so beasty. Hope I don't suck to badly.
Friend is buying car from owner in TX, we expect delivery end of feb, into march. He wants it in the paint shop asap so it'll be looking good for the season- I'll see if I can post a few before/after photos when its in MN/WI. By the way, color is to be.... yellow. Any change in point totals for that?
List master- please update the point totals. I expect Rob, who I do not think is active on this list, may be wanting to sign up in his new 914 as well. I'll get after him when things slow down for the both of us and the car is here and ready to go, and have him pick a screen name and sign up for the cup.
Thanks again!
David Parsons
OttoX914
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 26 2005, 04:18 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Jan 26 2005, 07:10 AM) |
| . weight makes a big difference. and don't -4 cars usually beat heavy -6 cars in autox? |
Sure, all the time..... just like they do on the track.
Posted by: GTeener Jan 26 2005, 05:00 PM
I'm in. Modified I guess you tell me what my points are... too confusing. I just want to drive
Posted by: brant Jan 26 2005, 05:16 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 26 2005, 03:18 PM) | ||
Sure, all the time..... just like they do on the track. |
ha...
not true on a track unless the driver is suberbly skilled.
and this I know because I personally am not superbly skilled.
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 28 2005, 01:11 PM
bump for new eyes.
i'm slammed with work right now, but we'll create an official "nailed" thread or webpage or similar soon in order to officiate this thing.
nathan
Posted by: Part Pricer Jan 28 2005, 05:23 PM
We need to get these rules finalized. Then, I can spend some time discovering the loopholes.
Posted by: cha914 Jan 29 2005, 11:00 AM
Man this thread gew quick...I finally dug through all the pages...you guys have put together an awesome "event"
I ran through the spreadsheet and came up with 250 ... so I going to join the modified group, I should be able to make 6 autox's this year....
Quick question, the car does have a welded in rollbar, and I am goin got add some side bars that should stiffen up the long area, but won't be a full cage and won't tie to suspension points...should this add points?
Quck layout of car so you will know what to fear in central TX
74 2056 Raby powered 4
44 webers w/ Eurorace header
koni yellows all around
adj perches in rear w/ 175 springs
stock torsions w 22mm welt bar up front
gutted interior and race seat
and I just ordered a set of falkens for the car - finally -
still has full steel body work and its an ugly slow green...lets get it on!
Tony
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 31 2005, 11:47 PM
for new eyes
i haven't forgot about this gals and guys, as soon as i finish this new piece (another few days) i'll get on the ball and formalize this.
which reminds me, i should get off the board and back to work
Posted by: Joe Ricard Feb 1 2005, 07:02 AM
Nathan, If I was any good at Computers I would offer to help. But hurry up because I have my 3rd event in week after next. Where will we send our results?
Posted by: trekkor Feb 4 2005, 07:43 PM
C'mon Nathan.
A whole bunch of guys are gonna have points tomorrow night.
KT
Posted by: Part Pricer Feb 4 2005, 08:31 PM
Have the rules been finalized yet?
Posted by: nebreitling Feb 4 2005, 08:43 PM
the rules as they exist on page 1 are "finalized".
i'm sorry for the delay, guys. tuesday. expect more on tuesday. have to finish this project, then it's on.
Posted by: kermit Feb 4 2005, 08:58 PM
Nathan, this is great stuff. Your enthusiasm for autocross and racing in general is inspiring.
Just added up my points - squeaked into the Improved class with 240 points - honestly!!
You guys are going to be sorry...
Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 4 2005, 09:19 PM
I'm In,
Help me out here, SCCA Street Prepared is what Stock or Improved? (I think stock for my car anyway, only reason it is SP is removal of the air injection and backadated HE's.
I think it would be helpful to relate 914 cup classing to SCCA and PCA classing.
Re. LSD: Keep the extra points for LSD
I agree
Re. the number of events: For the highest number of people to be able to participate, I think that it should be kept low. Here in New England, we have a short season usually six to seven months. Most organizations around here only run once a month.
I agree
Re. carbs: Yes. Points for carbs on 4-cylinder cars. I'm not sure about non-stock carbs on stock 6-cylinder cars.
I agree on the 4. I think the 6 should be able to use any stock carb or fuel injection with no penalty.
Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Lower the number of entries to ten. Then, if less than ten cars run, hit 'em with an handicap.
I'm not sure I have an Opinion, the last Auto-X I was at here has ~ 150 entries.
Re. EV's : I think we should reserve the right to retroactively deduct points from Otmar if we find that he is consistently kicking out butts.
I think if everyone else is going to be on the honor system of classifying their car, so should he.
Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): If we allow dual entries, the points should never be mixed. If you declare upfront that you will be running one PCA and one SCCA, you can't at a later time take the highest six (or whatever number) from both groups. However, if you don't declare that you are running with two or more separate groups, your highest six (or whatever number) will be your points.
I agree
Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: Production cars only.
I agree, But this may be problematic, AFAIK SCCA does not specify that FTD is a production car or not. I assume that this will mean me looking through the results and picking the Fastest Production car, if FTD is run by a F440, or FV or Formula SAE as is usual. It won't be published as "Official FTD - Production car" though.
Posted by: nebreitling Feb 8 2005, 08:57 PM
BUMP!
okay, i know some of you guys are downright horny for this thing to be finalized (trekkor ), but it's going to be another week. DON'T WORRY -- IT WILL HAPPEN we can do it fast, or we can do it right... seeing as how most AX seasons haven't begun yet, there wouldn't be many results to view anyway.
i know, however, that some of your seasons have already begun -- that's alright, just hang on to your results!
we're going to try to keep get this thing as automated as possible. you will all owe Andy a beer after this.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 11 2005, 09:54 PM
In the loudest voice you can...
BRING IT ON!!
KT
Posted by: trekkor Feb 23 2005, 12:39 AM
| QUOTE |
| it's going to be another week. |
Hello?
Posted by: nebreitling Feb 23 2005, 01:09 AM
dude -- the pm i sent wasn't good enough?
we're trying to do this a bit "polished". it's coming guys, just hang tight, get your cars ready... for those of you who've already been running, just hang onto your scores...
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2005, 02:52 AM
I'm gonna get a late start, but I'll be there for the finish
Got a call from Mr. Sheridan today. My *8 lb* hoods are OTW.
He says he now makes em' from a good percentage of CF to stiffen the outside edges. He obiviously takes pride in his work
and does all his own lay-up. Pics to follow.
Got a line on some VERY light not-for-road 16 X 10 wheels.
I'll paint the car on the weekend of 5 March. I'm going to the SCCA kickoff party this weekend....it just happens to be at a spot that sells Hoosiers.(insert money flying away smiley) Assuming all goes well, I just *might* make the SCCA AX on March 19/20....but I'm not putting any money on it.
This sucker better be fast or I'm gonna give my long suffering wife the opportunity to take me out before I cut my wrists.
Posted by: trekkor Mar 6 2005, 11:02 PM
You'll be buried with scores in no time.
KT
Posted by: trekkor Mar 11 2005, 01:42 PM
Nate,
Put me down for 97 points on event #1
my 48.23 to a 46.69 TTOD = 96.8 ( 97 )
http://red.pca.org/3-5%20Autocross%20Results.xls
KT
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 11 2005, 02:54 PM
Wow 7 runs!!!!!! You ought to get better with that much practice.
Posted by: trekkor Mar 11 2005, 03:45 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=26533&hl=rr
When I get the suspension dialed, look out.
KT
Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 06:20 PM
Nate 
A/X #2...94 pts, please.
51.891 TTOD, 55.289 Me =93.854 ( 94 )
http://lpr.pca.org/autocross/2005/lprax1/lprax1.htm
thanks
KT
( I choke )
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