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Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 29 2014, 04:35 PM

So I was running up to the store to drop off some Red Box movies, and pulling away from a stop sign I heard a loud pop....then the car stopped moving. The engine was still running and idling fine, but when I put it into 1st again and tried to pull away, the car didn't move and I could hear a sound like rocks in a rock tumbler. I'm guessing clutch pieces rattling around the bell housing?

I tried just shifting through the gears while stopped and I could find every gear fine, so I'm hoping it's nothing internal to the trans.

Luckily this happened just a few hundred yards from my house in my neighborhood so getting it back to my house was easy. I'm going to have it towed to a local aircooled shop. But does this sound like a clutch disc that shattered, or possibly something more serious?

Of course this had to happen just after I sold my Karmann Ghia, so I have no other means of transport except to borrow my girlfriend's car!

Posted by: Old Yella Jul 29 2014, 04:42 PM

Check the cv joints first.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 29 2014, 04:44 PM

CV joint broke, or (more likely) unbolted itself from either the transmission output flange or the hub.

--DD

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 29 2014, 04:44 PM

Right. If you can get it into all the gears with the engine running, you have a busted CV joint or the bolts have broken/fallen out.

The Cap'n

Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 29 2014, 04:48 PM

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 29 2014, 04:56 PM

Thanks guys, I'll check and see if that's the issue!

Posted by: flippa Jul 29 2014, 05:29 PM

Been there, done that.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 29 2014, 05:48 PM

Well, the CV joints might still be an issue...but sometimes the solution is staring you right in the face and you don't see it! Apparently I was too busy looking at the shift linkage and clutch cable, and somehow missed THIS!!! Only the passenger side axle snapped. Driver's side is still in one piece.

According to Scotty Boy, these were 930 CV's and 911 axles. Anyone care to confirm or deny that?

Also, anyone know a good source for new axles and CV's?


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Posted by: JRust Jul 29 2014, 06:07 PM

Those do look like the thicker 911 cv's. Not sure why they bothered with those for a stock motor. Guess that is what they got doing the 5-lug setup. Those axles are shorter which is why there is that patch piece which is what broke. I'd recommend getting a replacement from Sway Away. They can make the axle the right length in the thicker size you have. Plus they are very reasonable

Posted by: JawjaPorsche Jul 29 2014, 06:15 PM

Contact Chris at Tangerine Racing for your new axle.

He is a good man to deal with.

http://www.tangerineracing.com/transmission.htm


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Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 29 2014, 06:26 PM

You probably should pull the outer CV aand stub axle and make sure that both CV's are the same. I have a custom axle assemble that the PO used a 914 CV on one end and a 911 on the other with a tube tack welded to couple the two axle halves together. I am sure it will work as well as yours did.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 30 2014, 12:17 PM

Are the stub axles not interchangeable between 914 and 911?
So if, for example, I ordered that axle assembly pictured above from Tangerine, would I need to buy it with the stub axle?

So this is my other axle, which doesn't have a weld like the one that broke. Does this also have 911 CV's? What are the visual clues to differentiate between 914 and 911 CV's and stub axles?

Sorry for all the questions, this is new territory for me!




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Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 30 2014, 12:39 PM

Also, it's been a while since I had the rear wheels off when I redid the brakes several months ago, but I'm pretty sure my rear rotors were stock four lugs that had been re-drilled for five lugs. I'm guessing this would indicate that my stub axles are 914 stubs, or?
I'll have to double check that when I get home.

Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 30 2014, 01:55 PM

If you ordered a 914 axle with 914 CV's it will not fit.
911 and 914 hubs ,CV's, stub axles and axles have a different spline count. It looks like 911 CV's. 914 are 94 mm and 911 are are 108mm. The 911 CV's take a bolt with a 8mm allen head.. If you have 911 CV's the trans flanges are larger to match the CV. The 911 CV go on a bigger axle too. You probably have 911 parts.
You can have drilled rotors that were put on 911 flanges. Probably have a 911 axle on the drivers side. The length is not ideal for a 914.

Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 30 2014, 01:59 PM

[You should also run the wires to the back up light switch on the trans above the axle and out of the way.

Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 30 2014, 02:03 PM

Now that I look closer you have a spacer between the CV and trans output flange. Probably there to adapt to the different length 911 axle. No spacer on the passenger side.

And there is no clamp on the small end of the CV boot on the passenger side. Looks loose. Wonder if there is any grease in the CV's?

Posted by: Krieger Jul 30 2014, 02:28 PM

That is a custom POS axle. It looks like it was cut and then spaced to be longer with a tube welded on the ends.

Posted by: Old Yella Jul 30 2014, 02:28 PM

Just get two new complete axles with cv's and throw all the other crap in the bin.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 30 2014, 03:13 PM

^This.

You typically dont see the axles ripping in half. The CV joints break much quicker than the actual axles failing.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 30 2014, 03:34 PM

The person who thought it was a good idea to weld a tube into the axle shaft needs his head examined.
A: any imbalance or runout will cause vibration and tear it apart quickly.
B: those shafts are hardened material for a reason. A relatively thin mild steel tube as shown has less than 50% of the axle shaft strength.
C: proper welding of alloy steel requires techniques the average home hobbyist isn't prepared for.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 30 2014, 07:34 PM

Shit, what a nightmare. The output flanges on the trans are 108mm. How big of a deal is it to swap output flanges and stub axles?
Is it a tough job or should I take this to a shop? Let me start by saying that I don't have a lift or a way to drop the engine/trans. I'd be doing this from under the car. I'm not afraid of some wrenching, but if there's any precision measurements involved, or anything like that, I'd rather take it to a shop.

Or is there a place to buy a similar spacer like what's on the driver's side and just get 911 axles?

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 30 2014, 08:06 PM

From what I gather, or rather infer from dealing with this car, is the guy Scotty Boy bought this car from was planning on doing a full 6 GT conversion, and probably gave up when it came to the engine. The front suspension is all 911 with M calipers, vented rotors, and 911 5 lug hubs. Apparently, now I've found out, the rear is all 911 as well.

But I think you're right about the Sway Aways. Seems like probably the best way to go at this point. I was just reading some posts from Eric Shea about this in regards to 5 lug conversions. I think I'll call them up tomorrow and get a 20.25" axle set with 28 splines for the 911 CV's. Part #2420
http://www.swayaway.com/OffRoadRacing.php

These are the correct spline count CV's for the flanges I have, correct?

I'll be replacing the CV's as well. What's a reliable source for 930 CV kits? I know from my Karmann Ghia days that there's a lot of chinese crap out there in the air-cooled world. I'd like to avoid that stuff.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jul 30 2014, 09:52 PM

Take it off, measure the length and spline count. I may have a spare. In fact I have several axles in 33 & 28 spline of various lengths. I might be able to match one up to one of my collection.

Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 30 2014, 11:00 PM

You will probably not need to replace the CV joints. Can't tell if they are 930 or 911. They are much more robust than the tiny 914 cv joints. If you do replace them get Lobro German made ones. Pelican or the other supplier s carry them. Come to think of it I believe 930 CV joints have 6 bolts. They are probably early 911. I think 69-73.

Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 30 2014, 11:09 PM

If you do pull the axle and stub axle do not roll the car around. You will break the wheel bearing. Put the stub axle back in if you need to move the car.
At least remove the broken half from the trans. Pretty sure it is early 911 not 930. Still good cv joints.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 30 2014, 11:19 PM

Bruce, if it hasn't been said, you are the man! I'm going to pull the axles and CVs and check everything out.
Mike Bellis, I'll let you know the measurements once the axles get pulled and maybe if you have something in the right size we can work something out.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 31 2014, 07:43 PM

So I managed to get the trans side of the axle off. They are 28 spline axles with 4-bolt early 911 CV's.

I can't seem to get the wheel side of the axle and CV off. I've removed all 4 bolts that hold the CV joint on, but it won't separate from the stub axle. Is there a trick to getting it to separate?

I'd rather not remove the stub axle since I'm only replacing the axles, and I also don't have a big enough socket for the castellated nut. 1 1/16" is the largest I've got, what size is that nut if I do have to remove it?

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jul 31 2014, 08:06 PM

30mm is the size of the stub axle nut.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jul 31 2014, 08:41 PM

Use the axle like a slide hammer to get it off.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2014, 08:46 PM

Just buy a pair of free floating Sway-A-Way axles. $325.00 for a pair. 28 spline and 914 length. Free floating so they find their natural torque curve. Easy-Peasy.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=91963

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 31 2014, 08:56 PM

Awesome, thanks for the confirmation on that, Eric! I just wanted to be sure that was the correct length.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 31 2014, 08:57 PM

That's what I was trying to do. I was worried I might damage the CV if I pulled too hard. Is that something to worry about, or should I just yank that thing?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2014, 09:30 PM

You will. You can crack the cage. Best to take it to a press and simply press it out. The right tools make it simple.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jul 31 2014, 09:33 PM

These are chrome moly and cheaper... This is what I'm running.

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/porsche-930-chromoly-axles.html

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2014, 09:34 PM

Sorry, are you talking about getting the stub axle out?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2014, 09:36 PM

Oooo... That is a great price.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 31 2014, 09:52 PM

No, I'm talking about separating the CV from the stub axle. Since the axle split, I've got two halves to deal with. I got the half (and one CV) separated from the trans side. But the other half I can't remove. I have all 4 bolts removed from the wheel-side CV, but it won't pull out of the trailing arm.

Should I just pull it like hell, or will that damage the CV?

I'd like to avoid removing the stub axle if possible.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jul 31 2014, 09:54 PM

You're stuck on the dowel pins. You can use a screwdriver or pry bar to wiggle the CV and it should come out.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2014, 10:03 PM

Put a screwdriver on the "gasket" by the dowels as Mike mentions. Tap it in and work it back and forth. Both sides. It will come.

Posted by: era vulgaris Jul 31 2014, 10:07 PM

Thanks guys! I'll give it a try in the morning.

Posted by: bdstone914 Aug 1 2014, 07:13 AM

I don't think you can get a screw driver down inside the trailing arm to pry off the cv. Going to need to remove the stub axle. If you have vented rotors you can keep the hub from turning by putting a screw driver in a rotor slot and letting it rest again the bottom of the caliper. If you have slotted rotors ther are other ways to hold the hub and rotor from turning.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 1 2014, 10:17 AM

get the screwdriver next to the CV and try to wiggle it out. You cannot directly pry under the CV in the trailing arm.

Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 3 2014, 06:16 PM

Did you still need a set of stock 914 output flanges? If so, let me know. Just pay shipping. I have lots of them.

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 4 2014, 11:13 AM

I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to stick with the early 911 one's I've got. The CV's look good, so I'm going to re-use them. I figure there's no sense in spending money to replace the output flanges, stub axles, and CV's if I don't need to.

I ordered a set of those 20.25" 28 spline axles from Pacific Customs. They're supposed to arrive thursday, so just waiting on them to get here so I can install them. I also picked up some new boots, boot clamps, CV gaskets, and CV grease from Eric. Hopefully I'll be back on the road by Friday!

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 7 2014, 07:32 PM

So is there any way to get a new axle assembly in without removing the heat exchangers?

If not, is there any special knowledge I should be aware of before attempting to remove the heat exchangers?

Posted by: bdstone914 Aug 7 2014, 07:55 PM

You can get them in with out removing the heat exchangers. I think you have to pull the starter for clearance.
Bruce

Posted by: 76-914 Aug 7 2014, 08:02 PM

I'd start soaking those studs/nuts in PB Blaster a few days prior to removing them. They want to back out of the aluminum leaving you with galled threads. Have a helicoil or timecert kit on hand before you start. Yes they are easy to drill out with the engine in the car if you step drill it. Not a step bit. Use regular bits but three different sizes. The hole acts like a guide when removing minimum amounts of material.

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 7 2014, 08:24 PM

I'm on the passenger side though. I can't quite figure a way to make it line up and get the stub axle into the trailing arm.

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 7 2014, 08:28 PM

Ugh, this sounds like a nightmare!

The problem is that the car is on the ground with the stub axle removed, so I'm afraid to raise it or do anything that would cause the wheel to roll.
It's so dumb. With the broken axle halves coming right out, it didn't even occur to me that the exhaust would be in the way.

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 8 2014, 12:39 AM

Raise the back end of the car.
With the car jacked up you should be able to get the new axle in without removing the heat exchanger.
Jacking up the car lowers the trailing arm relative to the transmission, making it easier to start the stub axle into the hub.

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 8 2014, 07:01 AM

This won't damage the bearing if the wheel turns a little bit?

Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 8 2014, 07:38 AM

bearings will be fine as long as there is no load on the wheel.

Posted by: era vulgaris Aug 8 2014, 10:31 AM

Got it in! So these chromoly axles don't have the "stopper" on the inside side of the splines. I was able to slide the trans-side CV down over the axle, which let me get the axle above the trans with enough room to get the stub axle in the trailing arm. Didn't have to lift the car or drop the heat exchangers!

Took it for a test drive and all seems good. Thanks for the help and advice, everyone!