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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ It runs !!!!! mickey mouse engineering prevails :)
Posted by: Mueller Jan 22 2005, 08:55 PM
Background:
For the stock D-Jet, the ECU gets the signal to fire the injectors from a set of mechanical breaker points inside the base of the distributor. There is nothing wrong with the factory method except for the fact that if you want to run the D-Jet injection, you have to keep the factory distributor...not anymore 
I have successfully been able to electronicly trigger the ECU from a pair of optical sensors inside of the billet Mallory distributor....so far I have only put a few miles onto the car with this setup and I don't know how it'll work when the temperature is much higher (currently it is 45° outside.....)
it's ugly right now, but give me some time to clean it up... 
So for my ignition, I have the Mallory distributor, accel coil and new 8.5mm plug wires....starts right up and idles fine, but I might install a CDI box anyways...
Posted by: xsboost90 Jan 22 2005, 08:58 PM
i love it..dont need it but i love it anyways!
Posted by: r_towle Jan 22 2005, 09:06 PM
Will this be a kit, or will you be selling the dizzy with the sensors installed?
I really hate the limitation of the sotck dizzy, and the age or it makes it less than accurate.
Tell us the price!!!
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 22 2005, 09:10 PM
VERY nice job mueller -- this idea was a long time coming. Hope the field testing works out well -- this would be a nice contribution to the longevity of Djet!
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 22 2005, 10:11 PM
schweet dude! 
PS: i still have your specially calibrated MPS here in my parts box.
PPS: you still have my roller bearings!
maybe we should hook up for lunch and exchange goodies ...
Andy
Posted by: Brett W Jan 22 2005, 10:14 PM
Is that ......
JB WELD!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Mueller Jan 22 2005, 10:33 PM
no, that is not JB Weld
it's a 3M brand potting epoxy for electronics....
| QUOTE |
| Will this be a kit, or will you be selling the dizzy with the sensors installed? I really hate the limitation of the sotck dizzy, and the age or it makes it less than accurate. Tell us the price!!! |
not too sure yet how I'll offer it.....I want to keep the price down so it won't be too expensive to do....the cost of the dizzy is in the mid $200s as is (if you want the Unilite, you can get a brand new Mallory dizzy with points for about $150)
Posted by: Brett W Jan 22 2005, 10:36 PM
Whew, I feel so much better.
Posted by: McMark Jan 23 2005, 02:53 AM
Make one that fits in the stock distributor and includes your own electronic points and sell it for less than Pertronix + Trigger points. Should be easy at $150+ to replace both those items. I know I'd recommend it to anyone who is replacing points with a Pertronix. I can't imagine that the electronic points could be that hard to replicate.
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 23 2005, 09:14 AM
Nice work there Mueller! Keep us posted how it run's out. What's on the shaft that triggers the sensor's. Did you build somthing in the rotor? And the pickup's what are they? Do they hook up directly to the FI harness and have there own fast acting gate switch or do they connect to a board you made then to the FI / ECU ?
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 23 2005, 09:20 AM
I hope you don't go Colonel Saunders on us and keep the secret reciepy
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 23 2005, 10:37 AM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Jan 23 2005, 12:53 AM) |
| Make one that fits in the stock distributor and includes your own electronic points and sell it for less than Pertronix + Trigger points. Should be easy at $150+ to replace both those items. I know I'd recommend it to anyone who is replacing points with a Pertronix. I can't imagine that the electronic points could be that hard to replicate. |
Actually, I've been working on that. It's not hard to replace the electronic points, but it's pretty difficult to have it all fit in the dizzy and still be DIY. You have to go to all surface-mount parts to get them small enough, and soldering those to a board is difficult even if you have lots of practice, and nearly impossible if you've never soldered before. Even the new MS-II stuff, which will be surface mount, will come only as a complete manufactured board, not as a kit.
Posted by: Mueller Jan 23 2005, 10:58 AM
| QUOTE (DJsRepS @ Jan 23 2005, 08:14 AM) |
| Nice work there Mueller! Keep us posted how it run's out. What's on the shaft that triggers the sensor's. Did you build somthing in the rotor? And the pickup's what are they? Do they hook up directly to the FI harness and have there own fast acting gate switch or do they connect to a board you made then to the FI / ECU ? |
the wheel on the shaft is just a bronze flanged bushing that I filed down....
no seperate PCB board, it's just a few resistors and a transistor....the transistor acts like an electronic valve...when the wheel blocks the light from one side of the sensor, the transistor gets "turned" on which allows a ground path to flow from ground to the ECU, triggering the ECU to fire the injector...the transistor is sorta like a relay, but it's done with no moving parts inside of it..
the red Unilite sensor is just as simple in operation.....only 3 wires and about $2 in electronic parts (thing costs from $90 to $120 at the stores)
these are very simple as well
brown wire ground, red is power (+ on the coil), green goes to the (-) coil...when the car is turned on, the green wire has 12 volts as does the red wire..the coil is "even" and happy .....when the rotor goes past the "lights" and has an open window, the 12volts going to the green wire is turned off, the coil is no longer even and the windings freak out releasing the energy within producing spark......sorry for the simple simon description, LOL
Posted by: SpecialK Jan 23 2005, 02:22 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 23 2005, 08:58 AM) |
| the coil is no longer even and the windings freak out releasing the energy within producing spark......sorry for the simple simon description, LOL |
No problem....K.I.S.S. is a good thing
I knew that those windings were some high strung dudes......they freak out over the smallest things.
Sweet set-up you've got going there Mike! Wasn't it you that was working on a "crankfire" system? I remember the pics, but can't remember the thread poster.
Need to change your screen name....Mike (the manic mechanic) Mueller
Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 23 2005, 03:13 PM
Good job mike! 
Posted by: KenH Jan 23 2005, 03:54 PM
Mike,
What timing relationship did you keep between the "ignition points" and the the "trigger" signal??
With your setup can that relationship be varied??
Ken
Posted by: Mueller Jan 23 2005, 04:22 PM
| QUOTE (KenH @ Jan 23 2005, 02:54 PM) |
| Mike, What timing relationship did you keep between the "ignition points" and the the "trigger" signal?? With your setup can that relationship be varied?? Ken |
currently I just threw the wheel in the dizzy.....I know with the stock unit there is a "slight" relationship of the timing, I say slight, cause the fuel injects right before the intake valve opens on 1 side, however on the opposite bank, the fuel is injected at the intake valve while valve is closed (exhaust stroke I think)
this happens on both banks...so, 2 cylinders get "fresh" fuel, while 2 valves always get a shower until the valve opens....with the L-Jet, all 4 injectors spray every time there is an ignition event
I honestly do not think there would be any measureable differance if I did index the new triggers to match the trigger timing of the stock dizzy
since the ignition advances (as does the L-Jet) with my setup the injectors advance also, with the stock D-jet, the injectors are always fixed relative to crankangle
I can play with the staging, but unless the car is on a dyno, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference and even on a dyno, I doubt we could see it as well
Posted by: Mueller Jan 23 2005, 04:45 PM
I was just looking at the stock trigger points....the timing relationship on those do change with wear of the phenolic blocks....
Posted by: KenH Jan 24 2005, 10:46 AM
Some time ago - sombody indicated there was an optimum relationship, depending on driving conditions. I will try and find the info.
Another way to do it might be to "trigger" an IC "divide by 2" off the points and feed that to the ECU. Hummm
Ken
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 24 2005, 11:19 AM
| QUOTE (KenH @ Jan 24 2005, 08:46 AM) |
| Some time ago - sombody indicated there was an optimum relationship, depending on driving conditions. I will try and find the info. Another way to do it might be to "trigger" an IC "divide by 2" off the points and feed that to the ECU. Hummm Ken |
If there is an "optimum relationship" between timing of valve events and timing of injection events, it's mostly theoretical, and will only be effective at light loads and low revs.
L-Jet works very well, and doesn't time injection events with spark events. It only uses the distributor input to determine engine speed. K-Jet also works very well, and it's injecting 100% of the time. No timing of injection to engine events at all.
True "sequential injection", which times injection events to valve events, can help a small amount near idle for smoother idle quality. It also has some effect on reducing idle emissions. If you hunt up the DIY EFI email archives, or go over to the MS EFI board, you'll find the details. The short answer is that the injectors are open for so much of the cycle at higher loads that timing them simply makes no difference.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 24 2005, 11:37 AM
Very cool Mike
Posted by: Mueller Jan 24 2005, 12:01 PM
| QUOTE |
| Another way to do it might be to "trigger" an IC "divide by 2" off the points and feed that to the ECU. Hummm Ken |
I thought of that earlier and it would be even better than my current "fix", but I don't know electronics that well and once I got to the flip-flop circuits I got a even more confused
the logic is not too hard to time it with the ignition event:
1 = trigger Rt
2 = no trigger
3 = trigger Lft
4 = no trigger
1 = trigger Rt
2 = no trigger
3 = trigger Lft
4 = no trigger
etc...etc....
I still might look at that path, I just need to do some more homework on the subject.......I just wanted to prove that it can be done, and I do agree with you, I think there is a better method by using the points (mech or elect.) than with the optic sensors
Posted by: bondo Jan 24 2005, 12:39 PM
You say mickey mouse engineering.. are those optical sensors out of an old fashioned ball-type mouse?
Posted by: Mueller Jan 24 2005, 12:46 PM
| QUOTE (bondo @ Jan 24 2005, 11:39 AM) |
| You say mickey mouse engineering.. are those optical sensors out of an old fashioned ball-type mouse? |
no...I bought those brand new
I hadn't really thought about taking about an old mouse for the parts, but now I'll have to take one apart
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jan 24 2005, 02:29 PM
You're a creative guy Mike, but is this a solution without a problem? Stock dizzys work fine, replacements are available...
So why the need for this other than its new?
Posted by: Mueller Jan 24 2005, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (bowlsby @ Jan 24 2005, 01:29 PM) |
| You're a creative guy Mike, but is this a solution without a problem? Stock dizzys work fine, replacements are available... So why the need for this other than its new? |
some people would like a newer or more modern distributor???
at least for our region PCA, the ignition is free to upgrade, yet the FI must remain stock....with the Mallory and MSD distributors, they can be tailored with different features such as non-stock advance curves. The new distributors also have larger diameter caps and rotors which in theory should help reduce spark scatter with more powerful/aggressive ignitions..
I can also now run a CDI box that should just be plug-n-play.
The original engine wiring harness plugs right up...the new ignition can be removed and replaced with the original with no signs of tampering...so your wiring harness will work perfect
granted, most people that want or need a better ignition will have carbs or an aftermarket FI, this was done mostly to prove an idea I had and due to me wanting to run the Mallory ignition setup while retaining my D-jet
I can tell you the car does start and idle better, but I'm sure it's mostly due to me getting rid of the points and going with an electronic ignition.....
Posted by: balthazar Jan 24 2005, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't call it mickey mouse engineering! Pfrototypes always look questionable! Good work!
Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 24 2005, 04:06 PM
Hey Mike, How about a cheap LSD or a way to modify the 915 or G50 ones to fit in our transaxle. That would be cool!
Posted by: drgchapman Jan 24 2005, 04:08 PM
Mike, I'm lurking in the background awaiting final setup. This sounds great. I run two '73's with D-jet. Love to see this work. Our SCCA rules allow for any distributor, but don't mess with the fuel injection or your up a class or three!
Keep us posted.
Gary
Posted by: fiid Jan 24 2005, 04:23 PM
nice job mueller!
(Mickey Mouse EngineeringWerks Rock!)
Posted by: KenH Jan 24 2005, 08:10 PM
GARY,
Call Paul - you can buy replacment gears with the "coarse spline" that will convert a 915 LSD. He cloned a ZF and has all the internals - disks & spacers.
http://www.guardtransmission.com/lsd_info.htm
Ken
Posted by: KenH Jan 24 2005, 08:36 PM
Opps it was Rick who wanted the LSD info.
Ken
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