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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Ignition Switch issues
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 17 2014, 01:18 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=235311
I commented on the above thread. My issue was not HOT START, it was just START. Well I bought two $8 switches as a precaution. They were MEYLE so I thought they were made in Germany, but made in China is stamped on them, so I figured they might fail. My first one has died after only a few months. or at least I thought it died.
I took the steering column apart and EVERY SINGLE time I use a screw driver in the switch recess to start the car, it works. The wires and the switch are just hanging under the dash and I take a standard screw driver, insert and turn with 100% success.
When I install the switch and the key mechanism on the shaft and I get it to start once or twice then nothing. All 3 of the switches react this way.
Anyone have any ideas about what might be happening.
Clark
Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 17 2014, 01:34 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=235311
I commented on the above thread. My issue was not HOT START, it was just START. Well I bought two $8 switches as a precaution. They were MEYLE so I thought they were made in Germany, but made in China is stamped on them, so I figured they might fail. My first one has died after only a few months. or at least I thought it died.
I took the steering column apart and EVERY SINGLE time I use a screw driver in the switch recess to start the car, it works. The wires and the switch are just hanging under the dash and I take a standard screw driver, insert and turn with 100% success.
When I install the switch and the key mechanism on the shaft and I get it to start once or twice then nothing. All 3 of the switches react this way.
Anyone have any ideas about what might be happening.
Clark
The original switch was not intended to work for 40 years. The replacement switches are not built to the same quality. With a new switch, starting loads will fry the switch quickly. Carbon builds up on the contact points due to the current overload. Modern cars no longer connect the switch directly to the starter. I relay is used to carry the high current load. In the early years this was called a hot start relay. Now I would recommend all 914's have a starter relay to prevent premature switch failure.
Add a relay controlled by the switch. Relay load is only 40mA verses the 10A the solenoid requires to engage the starter. You clearly have either carbon build up or have fried the contacts of the Chinese switch.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 17 2014, 01:35 PM
The screwdriver is applying pressure on the contacts as you hold the 2 pieces. This is cutting through the carbon build up.
Posted by: patssle Aug 17 2014, 01:47 PM
Or a push button on the dash. Still requires the key turned to the ON position but the heavy starter solenoid current runs through the button.
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 17 2014, 06:10 PM
Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..
Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 17 2014, 06:35 PM
Yes. However, I would suspect the tumbler assembly is worn out. It consists of the tumbler, the long actuating cam, and a pin, and it's likely as old as the car. The cam is made of pot metal, the pin of hardened steel, and the end of the tumbler is pot metal. Look there first. I suspect the cam isn't turning far enough at its tip to actuate the switch. I've seen cars with the cam actually broken off, meaning turning the key had no effect at all. All the relays in the world aren't going to solve the problem of a non-existent signal.
The Cap'n
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 17 2014, 06:37 PM
Yes. However, I would suspect the tumbler assembly is worn out. It consists of the tumbler, the long actuating cam, and a pin, and it's likely as old as the car. The cam is made of pot metal, the pin of hardened steel, and the end of the tumbler is pot metal. Look there first. I suspect the cam isn't turning far enough at its tip to actuate the switch. I've seen cars with the cam actually broken off, meaning turning the key had no effect at all. All the relays in the world aren't going to solve the problem of a non-existent signal.
The Cap'n
I was leaning that way, but could not figure out how to get the tumbler out. Can NEW parts be purchased and re-keyed?
Clark
Posted by: 914Sixer Aug 17 2014, 09:08 PM
NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 18 2014, 07:13 AM
NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.
OK so what do people do when the tumblers etc.... are too worn?
Posted by: WLD419 Aug 18 2014, 07:50 AM
NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.
OK so what do people do when the tumblers etc.... are too worn?
I used a vw bug one in mine
, down side is vw key, no more porsche key 
, & I now have two different type of key blanks 
, sorry I dont remember what year vw , it's the the with coluum lock system ,
I took my tumbler down to vw parts store to match it up, Bill D.
Posted by: jaxdream Aug 18 2014, 08:02 AM
Malcolm contact tweet , he's a member here that does lock rekeying and sells tumblers / wafers for 914 locks . Porsche / VW used the same wafers in all the locks on the 914, with the exception of the "valet " wafers . He does good work and can help with cylinder lock problems . Good luck ....
Jack
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2014, 09:25 AM
I couldnt find a decent switch. I ended up using a 10 dollar switch from my FLAPS and mounting it to the dash. Never an issue again.
Posted by: WLD419 Aug 18 2014, 09:27 AM
Malcolm contact tweet , he's a member here that does lock rekeying and sells tumblers / wafers for 914 locks . Porsche / VW used the same wafers in all the locks on the 914, with the exception of the "valet " wafers . He does good work and can help with cylinder lock problems . Good luck ....
Jack
Hmm
, he's just down the turnpike for me , can the vw tumbler be redone towork with a porsche key blank ? Bill D.
I guess I'll PM him and ask ,
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 18 2014, 09:42 AM
Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..
Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???
I kept searching and found a picture..... It raises a question or two as well.
Where and how to mount the relay, style or part number of the relay, etc....
Other than that, I think I got it, now I just need to get one. And work on my tumblers.
Posted by: SLITS Aug 18 2014, 10:50 AM
Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..
Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???
I kept searching and found a picture..... It raises a question or two as well.
Where and how to mount the relay, style or part number of the relay, etc....
Other than that, I think I got it, now I just need to get one. And work on my tumblers.
I mounted mine to the trunk floor.
Whoever did this installation used the wrong wire gauge.
From the battery & alternator to one side of the Ford Solenoid - large terminal (same wires currently connected to large post on starter solenoid)
From the other side (large) - battery cable to large post on starter & wire to spade terminal on existing starter. (#2 or #4 cable)
12V yellow wire (from key switch) to the terminal on Ford solenoid.
All this does is take the load off the ignition switch. All high amperage voltage is handled by the Ford Solenoid and it takes minimal amps to activate it.
Or watch the video link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgValPjmogw
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 19 2014, 07:12 AM
Sorry Stu, but I don't follow exactly. At first you said the wires were the wrong size, but then you never gave a size and you mention the battery cable in 2 places.... 
do you mean to use a wire the same size as the car's battery wire?
The video was interesting, but raised more thoughts and questions. So, I doctored the napkin drawing.
Can anyone confirm my questions in GREEN ?
Posted by: Java2570 Aug 19 2014, 07:23 AM
For a starter relay, I bought this one from McMark @ Original Customs. It's pre wired, and ready to go plus it just gets clamped to the starter solenoid. Works well and very easy to put on......http://www.originalcustoms.com/store/product.php?productid=14
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 19 2014, 08:06 AM
For a starter relay, I bought this one from McMark @ Original Customs. It's pre wired, and ready to go plus it just gets clamped to the starter solenoid. Works well and very easy to put on......http://www.originalcustoms.com/store/product.php?productid=14
I have seen pluses and minuses about this type. I guess it's a coin flip and the coin landed on FORD relay. I bought one at Napa for about $13. Just want to get the wiring right. Lots of posts discussing it, but I just never found one with complete wiring directions. I am not from Missouri, but if you show me, I can do it.
Even McMark's picture on your link does not answer all the questions. I can't see the battery wire or the alternator wire.
Clark
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2014, 08:39 AM
Having done dozens of these, I think I'm qualified to advise on the wiring. The battery + and the alternator cables REMAIN on the outboard post of the starter. Add a wire equal to or greater than the gauge of the yellow wire from that post to the Ford solenoid (or any other relay heavy enough for this purpose). From the opposite post of the solenoid, run an equally heavy wire to the 51 tab on the starter, the one where the yellow wire was before adding the solenoid to the circuit. The yellow (51) wire now gets attached to the small post on the side of the solenoid. You'll most likely need a short jumper, which should also be a wire equal to or greater than the gauge of the yellow wire. You DO NOT need cable such as is used for the battery wire, but the wire you select should be heavy enough to carry the start signal. 8-10 gauge should be sufficient, and you need to use well crimped quality connectors. Be sure to tape or otherwise insulate the connection in the extended yellow 51 wire. I prefer to use German (or other European) wire because is has far more strands than the junk you get at your FLAPS and carries more current for the size. I prefer the 6v Ford solenoid because it'll fire on under 5v, something that can be an advantage in a car with old wiring, a weak ignition switch, and weathered connections. I ran one on The Thunderbus for 20 years, the last 10 with a 2.4/6.
Have fun, The Cap'n
Posted by: SLITS Aug 19 2014, 08:42 AM
Sorry Stu, but I don't follow exactly. At first you said the wires were the wrong size, but then you never gave a size and you mention the battery cable in 2 places....
do you mean to use a wire the same size as the car's battery wire?The video was interesting, but raised more thoughts and questions. So, I doctored the napkin drawing.
Can anyone confirm my questions in GREEN ?
The wire size from the battery to the solenoid, whether it is the stock solenoid on the starter or the Ford is #2 or #4 ... easily said it is a battery cable. The same size wire is used from the Ford solenoid to the existing stock solenoid. It carries High amperage. You can purchase a short battery cable with eye ends from most any FLAPS.
The only light gauge wire (16?) is used from the output of the Ford Solenoid to the spade terminal on the stock solenoid. You have to activate the stock solenoid to get the Bendix gear to engage the flywheel so the motor will turn.
So, in reference to your diagram ... the answers are YES on the wire sizes and NO, the heavy cables go to the input side of the Ford solenoid.
If my car was on the rack I would shoot an image.
Thanks, Cap'n
Posted by: Java2570 Aug 19 2014, 08:43 AM
Here is a photo of my install of this relay kit.....clamp onto solenoid, yellow wire from relay goes to top solenoid connector, red wire from relay goes to starter + lug, black wire goes to same ground as trans ground strap, yellow wire from ignition (that previously was connected to solenoid) goes to relay. I thought about the Ford relay setup but I found not much detail in how it is wired and I'm already electrically challenged as it is.....by the time I'd have bought the parts to do the Ford setup and spent all the time and effort wiring it, I'd have spent more than $30 in money and frustration. So I went with McMark's setup.....
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2014, 08:48 AM
Sorry Stu, but I don't follow exactly. At first you said the wires were the wrong size, but then you never gave a size and you mention the battery cable in 2 places....
do you mean to use a wire the same size as the car's battery wire?The video was interesting, but raised more thoughts and questions. So, I doctored the napkin drawing.
Can anyone confirm my questions in GREEN ?
The wire size from the battery to the solenoid, whether it is the stock solenoid on the starter or the Ford is #2 or #4 ... easily said it is a battery cable. The same size wire is used from the Ford solenoid to the existing stock solenoid. It carries High amperage. You can purchase a short battery cable with eye ends from most any FLAPS.
The only light gauge wire (16?) is used from the output of the Ford Solenoid to the spade terminal on the stock solenoid. You have to activate the stock solenoid to get the Bendix gear to engage the flywheel so the motor will turn.
So, in reference to your diagram ... the answers are YES on the wire sizes.
If my car was on the rack I would shoot an image.
Your diagram introduces another unnecessary connection in the wiring from both the alternator and the battery, something that can degrade the voltage and current to the starter. Essentially, that's part of what we're trying to correct by adding the solenoid. As I said above, leave the 12v + (30) cables on the outboard post of the solenoid.
The Cap'n
Posted by: Dtjaden Aug 19 2014, 08:55 AM
The battery and alternator wires should remain on the 914 starter. The yellow wire, +12 from the ignition switch, should be wired as you have it. A new wire, same size as the yellow wire, should go from the post on the 914 starter where the battery and alternator wires are connected. A new wire, again same gauge as the yellow wire, should go as you have it connected to where the yellow wire was on the 914 starter. Finally, you need a new wire connected from the other upper post on your drawing to a ground.
Now, I have a concern about using the Ford "relay". This is a very large relay that is often called a starter solenoid. It may draw as much current to activate as the 914 starter. McMark's solution uses a relay that only requires very low current when activated. If you have an ohm meter you can check this out by: 1) check the resistance between the two top terminals on your drawing - this is the relay coil; 2) on the 914 starter check the resistance between the post where the yellow wire connects and ground. If the resistance on the Ford relay is not MUCH higher you have not really gained any advantage using the Ford relay.
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 19 2014, 09:04 AM
Thanks Cap'n. In this picture of one I believe that Mark Henry did in http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=109230&view=findpost&p=1345877 the engine is out of the car. But it looks like the large post nut on the starter solenoid is loose. I assumed that he had the BATT + and Alt here, you confirmed that. The dude in the video gave me the question about attaching those to the new FORD Relay.
Also I saw a post from you in my searches about the 6 V relay. I wondered why and if you mis-typed, but now I know. I might just return the NAPA 12v I have and look for a 6V one.
Once again, thanks.
Clark
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 19 2014, 09:18 AM
The battery and alternator wires should remain on the 914 starter. The yellow wire, +12 from the ignition switch, should be wired as you have it. A new wire, same size as the yellow wire, should go from the post on the 914 starter where the battery and alternator wires are connected. A new wire, again same gauge as the yellow wire, should go as you have it connected to where the yellow wire was on the 914 starter. Finally, you need a new wire connected from the other upper post on your drawing to a ground.
I did not mention GROUND, you are correct. If the Ford relay is bolted to the stater, wouldn't that be the ground?
I understood that 2nd small post was something Ford connected to the coil? (Ford guy told me that) There is an "I" on one small post and an "S" on the other. I plan on using the "S" for my YELLOW wire. And leaving the "I" empty.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2014, 09:37 AM
"S" = "switch", IIRC. On my bus, I mounted the relay (Ford solenoid) to the body. I've bolted them down with one of the long starter through bolts on 914s, and to the firewall tin, as well.
The Cap'n
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 19 2014, 10:57 AM
Clark I still have that complete column with multiple keys if you need it.
I really like McMarks relay all the wiring is done!
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