Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ starter / ignition wiring help
Posted by: synthesisdv Jan 25 2005, 07:40 AM
OK,
Had hot start problem and need to install starter relay to help.
Also want to get rid of ignition key/switch and use momentary on switch on the dash.
So what wires go where?
Posted by: scruz914 Jan 25 2005, 09:45 AM
The solenoid has a couple of common spade terminals one of which the ignition wire is connected to. Add a heavy (8-10 ga) wire to the free terminal and run it to the dash. This wire connected to a hot source from the fuse panel will turn the engine over. I don't recall which hot source to use on the panel. It will be the same that goes to the ignition. Buy a heavy switch (spring loaded push button type) and connect the hot source and wire from the starter to it.
I ran the extra wire from the starter along side the heavy cable from the starter to the battery and just touch it to the + terminal when I have a hot start problem. I consider this temporary since a hot start problem is the result of poor/dirty connections in the circut. PP has a tech article on going through the starter circut and fixing the problem. A relay is really a band-aid that is not fixing the real cause.
-Jeff
Posted by: gaz914 Jan 25 2005, 04:03 PM
To add a strater button, locate the wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid.
(someone can probably chip in with the colour, my interior is stripped out right now)
Cut the wire near the ignition switch and connect the "car" end to one terminal of thwe starter button.
Next, connect a wire from the main 12 volt feed to the ignition switch (red?) and run to the other terminal o the starter button.
Starter button installed 
Posted by: gaz914 Jan 25 2005, 04:12 PM
To make it more reliable, overcome the hot start issue and to allow you to use any sort of switch as a starter button, I strongly suggest a relay be added to the circuit.
I normally use a standard square "bosch" relay, although anything will do really.
Basically you take the wire that from the ignition switch/starter button off the starter and use it to energise the relay coil (terminal 85).
The other side of the relay coil (terminal 86) goes to negative (body).
Where the very heavy wire from the battery is connected to the starter solenoid, connect some reasonably heavy wire and connect to terminal 30 on the relay.
Run the same size wire back from terminal 87 to the place where you removed the original wire (from the ignition switch/start button).
Hopefully the attached diagram explains better 
Posted by: Marty Yeoman Jan 25 2005, 04:23 PM
Do as Gary suggests.
I installed the exact same curcuit about 4 years ago with trouble free motoring ever since.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 25 2005, 04:27 PM
I use a ford solenoid...has more kick.
BTW the way I do it you don't cut any factory wires
Attached image(s)
Posted by: scruz914 Jan 25 2005, 05:07 PM
| QUOTE (gaz914 @ Jan 25 2005, 03:03 PM) |
| To add a strater button, locate the wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. (someone can probably chip in with the colour, my interior is stripped out right now) Cut the wire near the ignition switch and connect the "car" end to one terminal of thwe starter button. Next, connect a wire from the main 12 volt feed to the ignition switch (red?) and run to the other terminal o the starter button. Starter button installed |
The problem with your hot starting may be due to the wire going from the starter to the ignition being faulty. I have cut mine down 2 ft and it is still corroded. So you may want to run a new wire to your new starter button. General consensus is that a hot start problem is due to faulty wiring and/or connections.
Here is the link to the PP article:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_starter_diag/mult_starter_diag.htm
You may also have a faulty ignition switch.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_ignition_switch/914_ignition_switch.htm
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 25 2005, 05:13 PM
| QUOTE (scruz914 @ Jan 25 2005, 03:07 PM) |
| General consensus is that a hot start problem is due to faulty wiring and/or connections |
you're putting on a band-aid instead of fixing the actual problem ...
the original circuit does not have a hot start problem.
it works just fine.
it's either your wiring or the starter itself is on it's way out.
my "hot-start" start problem was cured by installing a new starter!
we don't need no stinking relays ...
Andy
Posted by: anderssj Jan 25 2005, 08:25 PM
I agree with Andy . . . .
I fought hot start/restart problems for years, even after replacing the starter, installing a relay, etc.
Finally found that the grounding strap from the trans to the underside of the trunk was shot (high resistance when cold, "open" when hot). Cleaned up the studs, coated them with di-electric grease, installed a new ground strap--haven't had a starting problem in the last couple of years (left the relay in place).
Hope this helps,
Steve A-
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 25 2005, 10:42 PM
That may be true...but this is not just a 914 problem, bugs and busses have it too.
I've got at least 75 of these ford solenoids running on bugs, I've never had one come back. One is a daily driver that I did 12 years ago.
I put one on my teen last summer hasn't failed me yet.
Part of the reason you guys don't have any success is because of the wimpy bosch relay. It takes almost as much juice to kick one of those as it does the solenoid. A ford solenoid only needs about 3v to kick in.
Customers are pretty happy when I solve their problem for $35 installed. Takes me 10 - 15min.
Posted by: synthesisdv Jan 26 2005, 06:56 AM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Jan 25 2005, 11:42 PM) |
| That may be true...but this is not just a 914 problem, bugs and busses have it too. I've got at least 75 of these ford solenoids running on bugs, I've never had one come back. One is a daily driver that I did 12 years ago. I put one on my teen last summer hasn't failed me yet. Part of the reason you guys don't have any success is because of the wimpy bosch relay. It takes almost as much juice to kick one of those as it does the solenoid. A ford solenoid only needs about 3v to kick in. Customers are pretty happy when I solve their problem for $35 installed. Takes me 10 - 15min. |
well I'm a little confused but I'll try the ford relay. Can I get one at my FLAPS?
what's the part number?
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 09:26 AM
Funny thing is I don't have a clue what the part number is 
All I ever ask for is a Ford starter solenoid for an early 80's, the type that mounts on the inner fender.
I think from the 60's to the late 80's they are all the same. They (FLAPS) always get the right one first try.
You will have to bend (90degrees), cut to shape and redrill the hole on the bracket.
Be carefull not to break the bracket off of the back of the solenoid...it's pretty tough but I imagine it could be broke.
Mount it to the bottom bolt holding the starter on with a bit of locktite.
You will also need some heavy gauge wire and connectors.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 09:27 AM
CU
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 09:29 AM
Bracket
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 09:37 AM
I had a pic of it on my 914 but of course I can't find it and my teen is in storage.
Here it is on a bug tranny.
BTW the tranny died, not the solenoid.
This is out of the wifes 71 SB and I know for sure that it's 5 years old...daily driver, year round and she has put 85,000 miles on it in the 5 years.
Never failed to start.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 10:08 AM
Here you go...mount it here.
like I said you will have to mod the bracket. I just used vicegrips to bend it, cut it a bit to fit nice and drilled a new hole.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 10:09 AM
Forgot the pic
Attached image(s)
Posted by: synthesisdv Jan 26 2005, 10:12 AM
Is this puppy any good? Just happen to be making an order from them today.
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=8421~subid=2101/index.html
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 10:20 AM
The Ford unit is about 10-12 bucks.
Don't really care for the mounting bracket...
The nice thing about how I do it is no drilled holes or cut wires on the car.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jan 26 2005, 12:31 PM
The part number for the 6 volt Ford solenoid (trust me, it's even better and will last FAR longer than you'll EVER need it) is SS 571 (That's for "Standard" brand, and can be used for a cross reference to other brands.)
HTH, The Cap'n
Posted by: andys Jan 26 2005, 12:49 PM
| QUOTE (gaz914 @ Jan 25 2005, 02:12 PM) |
| To make it more reliable, overcome the hot start issue and to allow you to use any sort of switch as a starter button, I strongly suggest a relay be added to the circuit. I normally use a standard square "bosch" relay, although anything will do really. |
Last night was the first time I got a good look at the starter on my '75, and found exactly this type of relay installed. The Bosch relay got me to think that perhaps this is a factory install......So if it's not stock on the '75, then the PO must have installed it.
With regard to that Ford solenoid; I think that the earlier version of the one pictured actually has a manual button on it as well (anyone remember these?). On an early Ford (these were used on nearly everything), it was mounted on the firewall. With the button manual actuation, it made bumping the starter a dream. Agree, they are bullet proof!!
Andy
Posted by: Mueller Jan 26 2005, 01:18 PM
| QUOTE |
| With the button manual actuation, it made bumping the starter a dream. Agree, they are bullet proof!! |
the buttons are for wimps....I prefer the 2 screwdriver method to activate the relay
did that a few months ago to a co-workers '65 stang.....they just stood in awe that I could start his car that way...
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 26 2005, 04:20 PM
Damn...I going try a 6v next time, thanks!
I think I heard about the 6v before and just forgot about it. Didn't know about the button though.
With this if you wanted a remote starter all you have to do is run a wire, mount a starter button in the engine bay and put it to 12v.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)