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Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 28 2014, 03:32 PM

I need to replace the rear wheel bearings, so "while I am in there" I will also tackle the bushings.

Rubber looks to be the OEM choice but is hard to find with the exception of the elephant racing kit that includes the shafts and install tools. $300+ I used the Elephant bushings on the front.

I found poly-graphite to be the least expensive < $20 for a set of 4 bushings only

With Delrin as the middle of the road choice. @ $50 for a set of 4 bushings only

So what is the +/- of each material? Can you throw a few vendors out there?

My car is a daily driver?

Clark

Posted by: Markl Aug 28 2014, 04:15 PM

I just put poly bushings on - PITA! They aren't made for the 914, they are just kind of the right size. I spent way too much time honing and fitting.

Worst of all, they are noisy, even with the right grease. I mean, the car hasn't gone 10 feet under it's own power and the squeaking is amazing.

So I'm saving for Elepahant or Rebel Racing bushings - I won't drive the car with that kind of racket going on.

Posted by: JamesM Aug 28 2014, 05:40 PM

NO POLLY!!!!

Rubber, or Elephant racing.

I love rebel racing's front bushing setup but i am not convinced their rears even exist at this point. I have never seen photographic evidence or heard of anyone who has them. Have tried for a while to get more info from them with no luck. If they do exist though, I would 100% say rebel racing as their front bushings are awesome!

Posted by: matthepcat Aug 28 2014, 05:53 PM

Im in the same boat. My retired race car has hardened bushings that squeak like no other!

I too echo Rubber for a street driver

Posted by: jimkelly Aug 28 2014, 06:46 PM

http://www.paragon-products.com/Porsche-914-Suspension-s/198.htm

http://www.pmbperformance.com/914suspension.html

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/rubberbushings/914rubberbushings.htm

Posted by: 76-914 Aug 28 2014, 07:35 PM

Mine are so GD loud I thought that I had missed a major rust area and that my car was breaking in half. They'll probably be coming out.

Posted by: 914_teener Aug 28 2014, 07:38 PM

+2 on Rubber for Street.

Mine are quite.

I installed 4 zerk fittings.

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 28 2014, 08:20 PM

I have a set of their fronts and just ordered a set of their rears today. I've been trying to reach them to get the rears for months but lucked out today. Clint said they had 3 sets available and I was the second guy to buy a set today. So, unless anyone else called after me they should have 2 sets left available. You can reach Clint at (805)440-9849.

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 28 2014, 08:49 PM

Here's the link to the Rebelracingproducts.com page that shows their rear bushing set for the 914.

http://www.rebelracingproducts.com/SuspSteerpage2.html

Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 28 2014, 09:23 PM

I guess i'll call. Need to ask if $199 does a car or a side. They spell it out on the part above for another car, but it is not clear for the 914.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 28 2014, 10:04 PM

I think what Tangerine does is the best. They use a Delrin bushing that is fit to a new shaft and they make sure it turns free. Then, you can ship the end play. IMHO, it's the only way to go.

Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 29 2014, 10:17 AM

No answer yet, you cali boys don't start working too early, do ya? I'll leave a message on the 3rd try.

My method on this project is to rebuild some spare trailing arms purchased from a 74 in the JY. $15 each. Then take an afternoon and install them on my '75. That way I can drive with the loud bearing a bit longer.

Bearings and bushings are now out of the spare arms. One arm had nice looking bushings and one of our experts (on another board) suggested that I not mess with the bushings if they "looked" OK. "you can't find the rubber ones, and it is one tough job" were a few other reasons. The picture below is the pivot shaft out of the arm with "good looking" bushings. And seems to be a good reason to replace 39 year old good looking parts.

Water got under the bushing and has rusted the pivot shaft. Looks like money well spent will be to change the bushings and the arms, ya think? Turns out both of the donor arms have this problem, I bet my '75 does too. IIRC the bushings looked good on it.

Clark

Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 29 2014, 07:32 PM

for some coments

Posted by: 02loftsmoor Aug 29 2014, 08:11 PM

All I add is thank you for bringing this up. about Ploy bushings,, thank you for not letting me make that mistake..

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 29 2014, 09:03 PM

That is for both sides!

Posted by: mgp4591 Aug 29 2014, 09:16 PM

When you grease the rubber bushings doesn't that destroy the rubber over time? And maybe not that long of a time?

Posted by: MikeM Aug 29 2014, 09:31 PM

I looked at that page on the Rebel Racing website and it looks like they are showing just the pivot shafts without the bushings. Or am I missing something?
Mike

Posted by: JamesM Aug 30 2014, 12:47 AM

Yeah, the site shows a drawing but I have never seen an actual picture, and every time i have called or emailed they are always "waiting for more" and they apparently never email me back when they actually get them.

If they do deliver please post pictures and feedback. If they are anything like the front setup then i just keep waiting until i can get my hands on a set.

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 30 2014, 12:55 AM

I should have mine on Monday or Tuesday. I'll post pictures once they're n my hands!

Posted by: MikeM Aug 30 2014, 09:20 AM

I'll look forward to seeing them....

Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 30 2014, 09:45 AM

Yes, I did get in touch Friday morning on the secondary phone #. He said they were out and they would be re-stocked shortly. He took my name and number. I asked what "shortly" meant and he said maybe 2 weeks.

And yes on the SET. $199 for both rear pivot arms with 2 bushing each. I did get that confirmation. I'll give them two weeks then I have to get moving, so I'll do something else.

love the hair
Clark

Posted by: MikeM Aug 30 2014, 09:59 AM

But these are poly bushings right? Not rubber. Will they creak and groan and squeek like everyone is saying poly bushings will do? I'd love to hear from someone that actually has these on their car.
Mike

Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 30 2014, 10:11 AM

I am with you on that: pictures vs. a cartoon and a few testimonials (Do they squeak?)!
Pulled from the website:

Rebel S Racing (RSR) Products 914 Rear Bushing Set
Fits: 914 rear trailing arms

With the overwhelming success and popularity of our 911 series bushings, we designed this 914 rear trailing arm bushing
set.

*Super low coefficients of dynamic friction.
*Utilizes modern technology, Thermoplastic PTFE (Teflon) impregnated self lubricating polymer bushing liners.
*Replaces factory rubber bushings.
*Precision shim pack is included for ease of installation and optimal alignment.
*Installation instructions included.
*Provides absolute minimal deflection of rear trailing arm pivot points.
*Holds rear toe settings in place under load
*Guaranteed to last as long as you own your car!
*Proprietary Rebel S Racing (RSR Products) design




added my thoughts:

Posted by: MikeM Aug 30 2014, 10:26 AM

I'm pretty sure they have the wrong image there....

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 30 2014, 02:20 PM

These bushings fit around the trailing arm shaft and go inside the control arm like the original rubber bushings do. The material is a composite Teflon impregnated material. I have a front set which is made of the same material. They are silent and never require any lubrication so no need for zirc fittings etc... The fronts fit over a stainless sleeve that is attached the control arm ends and the composite sleeve rides on those stainless sleeves. The stainless sleeves look very similar to what Elephant racing uses. The difference is there is no urethane material riding on the sleeve that requires lubrication. These are two solid pieces that fit precisely over each other. These should last the life of the car once installed.

Posted by: jimkelly Aug 30 2014, 02:59 PM

I think with elephant, it is not the urethane that needs lubrication, it is the surface between the steel bushing and the bronze bushing. the urethane should hold firm to the trailing arm.

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bushings/914bushings.htm

Posted by: MikeM Aug 30 2014, 05:33 PM

With respect to the rear trailing arm bushings, if you had a choice between the Rebel Racing bushings, or the Elephant rubber bushings, which would you choose?
Street car only.

Posted by: MikeM Aug 31 2014, 09:07 AM

Bump for comments??

Posted by: lonewolfe Aug 31 2014, 01:13 PM

Both are good high quality solutions. For me, the Rebel Racing edges out a win because they have no need for lubrication or any maintenance. As for performance I'd say both are great and should last a long time!

Posted by: shane Aug 31 2014, 04:13 PM

Elephant racing rubber bushings worked great for me no lube or maintenance because they are rubber. I think if you ask you can just buy the bushings and not the special tool to press them in. You can PM me.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 9 2014, 07:52 AM

UPDATE: I conversed with Jonathon and Clint at Rebel Racing and ended up buying their rear Trailing Arm bushing set up. I am in TN and they are in CA, so if they shipped them Friday, I might have them Thursday.

I liked the comments on here,
* folks preferred the rebel product,
* their price for a complete set was about $100 cheaper than some Elephant sellers
* and the BIG one... Jonathon told me that they do not squeak. He claims to have them on front and back of a 911.

Clark

Posted by: chads74 Sep 9 2014, 08:20 AM

I am interested in seeing these bushing and looking forward to an update. I have been draggin my feet with a set of poly bushings that have been sitting on my work bench for months. Now I might need to rethink, because it I go to the trouble to hone and install and end up with a squeek I'll be pissed! Please update once you get the rebel bushings.

Posted by: crash914 Sep 9 2014, 10:48 AM

squeaking sucks, that's all I hear on my video camera during AX runs....I can't even hear the motor over the squeeks...I am going to install needle bearings.

Posted by: HalfMoon Sep 9 2014, 09:14 PM

So odd.
I did poly's on my rears with zerks and they're quiet as a ghost

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 13 2014, 11:09 AM

2nd UPDATE: I had hoped to have the order by now. Turns out it took them a week to put it in a box and ship it. Actually 8 days cause they didn't get it in the Thursday US mail. They SAID and their site mentions 1 day turn around. oh well.

I do have a tracking # and the box is moving and they did ship 2 day. So I guess I should have them on Monday.

Posted by: MikeM Sep 13 2014, 11:19 AM

It would be great if you would continue to keep us posted.
Thanks

Posted by: Larmo63 Sep 13 2014, 11:46 AM

We are all waiting to see these mythical parts……..

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 15 2014, 01:46 PM

I just tracked them once again and it does not say OUT FOR DELIVERY like UPS does. But it does say that the item left the NASHVILLE PO at 3 am this morning. So I figure it will be in the route driver's truck and might be at my house now.

I sure hope my dog does not chase him away. I have a scared-ee cat mailman. 1 of them is fine, one of them even wears surgical gloves.

Fingers are crossed.

Clark


UPDATE: NOTHING arrived today. What good is the tracking system, I ask?

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 15 2014, 08:58 PM

I finally got time to take some pictures of the Rebel Racing rear control arm bushings. There's a machined metal tube with the secret material inner bushings. The control arm shaft fits down the middle of the machined tube while gliding on the teflon inpregnated bushings.

So, these bushing are mythical no more! They exist!

Posted by: MikeM Sep 16 2014, 08:19 AM

Pictures say a thousand words!!! Thanks.
Now to find out if they truly are quiet......

Posted by: IanS Sep 16 2014, 12:00 PM

oooh shiny! Interesting one piece design rather than approaching it from either end. Thanks for the pic and thread!

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 16 2014, 01:07 PM

I like the 1 piece design approach! It makes sense. These absolutely are silent and never require lubrication of any kind. I have a set of their front bushings. Smooth as silk and 100% noise/squeak free! These bushings are the shit!

Rebel Racing is a small outfit out of Morrow Bay, CA. The owner is not easy to reach but they recently moved into a new location that has room for machine equipment and everything is done in house. Clint has had some family health issues that have kept him less accessible as well. We all face these challenges at one time or the other. He's a great guy and really knows his stuff! Patience pays off here! The best way to contact them is be emailing them at: sales@rebelracingproducts.com.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 16 2014, 02:19 PM

USPS tracking tells me that mine are now OUT FOR DELIVERY. So I will see them later today and report. I am still fuzzy on the Lonewolf picture. Parts are missing in his picture, right?

Things did move slowly with these guys, and like some have said, they were out of stock for a short while. But I did use the website email feature and 3 guys have emailed me and given me cell phone numbers to call them on.

Clark

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 16 2014, 05:45 PM

Yes, the threaded shafts that go through the RR metal tubes and within the bushings are missing. I didn't have those shafts handy for the photographs. You can see how these parts are all oriented on the rebelracingproducts.com website in the illustration.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 16 2014, 07:00 PM

Well my problem is that I guess I am too literal. I see a picture, or a drawing and I make a purchase and I expect to get what I see. I need the damn pivot arms. In posts above you can see that mine are rusted. Their website showed the product with the pivot arm assembled and never stated that IT was not included.

Am I crazy to expect the part to show up as pictured?

Or should I just use the rusted pivot arm?

Clark

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 16 2014, 07:05 PM

I've been selling new pivot shafts for years.
I can't tell you if they'll fit the Rebel bushings (they fit my bushings), but my shafts are made to exacting standards, and are virtually the same diameter as the stock original shafts.

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 16 2014, 07:07 PM

I'd replace them if they badly rusted. You can buy fancy new ones from Tangerine racing and here's the link:

http://tangerineracing.com/suspension.htm

I bought a used set from Eric at PMB Performace that were cleaned up and freshly placted. I would have put them in the picture but I bought them months ago and they're burried in a pile of of boxes of parts for my car. I have not pulled out the old ones yet so I'm not sure what condition mine are in. You can also check with Elephant Racing and see if they will sell just the shafts from their rear control arm bushing kits.

Here's a picture of the Elephant Racing shaft with their kit.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 16 2014, 08:45 PM

Call a local metal plater like (Google is your friend):

http://www.leonardplatingcompany.com/

Have them prep (remove the rust) and "clear" zinc plate yours. They'll probably be done tomorrow afternoon if you get them there in the morning.

Make sure you ask them to remove "all" of the rust before they replate them. Zinc will take over from there and protect them for another 40 years. They don't serve any other purpose than to support the Rebel sleeve (well, that and carry the entire load of the back of the car! ) so, I'd say that a minimal amount of pitting on the old bushing surface shouldn't affect the load rating at all. I'm "guessing" that Rebel wants you to JB that sleeve onto the shafts. Those old pits may serve some purpose in retaining some of the epoxy.

We do a lot of Elephant installs and we'd send our pitted shafts to McMark for his roller bearing installs. His design used a bearing race much like the Rebel product sleeve but, they machined the pitted ends down on the rods and glued their races on there. It made for a very precise fit. That's the piece (the precision fit) that all of these bearing/bushing systems have to overcome. They all do it in slightly different ways.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 16 2014, 09:10 PM

Hey thanks alot. My decision was between the elephant OEM rubber from you or to try something new.

I can see now that I did not get enough information to make the proper decision. With the instructions left out of the box and no answering the phone, plus no leaving a message on FULL mailboxes; I really can't say how they recommend installing. But JB weld? Just seems hokey to me. That is a tried and tru method?

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 16 2014, 09:13 PM

Hey Eric! The Rebelracingproducts front bushings do require JB Weld for the front control arm bushing sleeves but the rears do not get glued in. I thought they would but Clint said not for the rears.

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 16 2014, 09:15 PM

Using factory shafts with precision bearing or bushing installations ensures that a loose fit will be required or the system will bind.
The shafts were never intended to serve as a bearing surface, and glueing bearing sleeves on them does not improve the poor colinearity from one end to the other.

Posted by: 914_teener Sep 16 2014, 09:34 PM

This is true.

Originally it was a thermo bonded system that was manufactured in a fixture to maintain the geometry.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 17 2014, 01:59 PM

bump for more conversation on installing the RSR product. Do you REALLY JB Weld them in? Who has installed the Rebel Racing rear trailing arm one piece bushing?

Lots of people seemed to recommend them, how did you install? Anyone have the instructions they can post?

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 17 2014, 02:13 PM

I recommend welding the outer sleeves supplied in my kits.
Two plug welds through the trailing arm tube - one a couple inches in from each end.
If the bushings are already installed in the tube you won't be able to weld the tube to the trailing arm.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 17 2014, 03:47 PM

Thanks for the info Chris, but yes the teflon impregnated poly bushings are installed in the tube. Seems to be a stainless steel tube. I don't think I would be set up to weld that material. I bet you tell your customers that is how yours go together? Maybe before they buy?

Pictures in previous post from Lonewolf. So here is a short video of the product. I have not installed the pivot arm. Mine are bad. Our friend Bruce has shipped me two and 4 nuts all freshly zinc plated, so it will be some time before I can do much more here.... Maybe Clint will call me back before the arms arrive.

Clark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGWdoG1fhjk

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 17 2014, 06:08 PM

The phone just rang, Jonathon says the answer is JB WELD. They say they have done hundreds like that.

But still no written instructions.

I have some time while I wait on Bruce's carton and my new pivot arms, so maybe they will have some explicit instructions by the time it arrives.

Lots of good things said about Rebel Racing, but this JB weld thing seems half-assed to me. Internet research to come on that stuff, I guess.

I guess if I follow thru with the install, I'll video the whole thing and they (OR the 914World) can have it from YouTube. shouldn't I get a discount?

Posted by: 914_teener Sep 17 2014, 09:58 PM

That is a really good question. I use a silicone based grease to try and avoid that problem. As far as how long they will last, I don't know. I have run the harder rubber compound for a couple of years now. No problems so far.

If it starts to wear I will replace them with something like Tangerine has.

With respect to the OP....hopefully you will get the pivot shaft there. I wouldn't use any old shafts as Chris says. They are not machined to any tolerance as they were not designed that way. You will have to make the bearing tube stationary there...I don't know what Rebel suggests ...no instructions...but ya can't have it rattling around like that.

I will say this though for the bearing replacements. I think McMark took some GoPro looking right at the pivot shaft once. The movement was amazing. I wonder what it would look like on a car with the rubber replacements? It would be interesting to test it.

Posted by: JamesM Sep 17 2014, 10:52 PM

When I got my rebel setup for the fronts I was feeling the same way about the jb weld, but trust me, it is the way to go. The issue is that the factory parts were not precise and the rubber bushings just took up the slop, when you are working with a non compressible material there is no way you can ensure a perfect fit on every car. On the fronts anyway the JB weld acted as a sort of filler between the sloppy control arm manufacturing and the precision machined race for the bushing. once together it is very clean.

You can see my install of the fronts here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=211241&st=0

I am a little suspect of the shaft fit on the rear though, I thought they were going to provide new shafts machined to fit their bushings. as with the fronts the PTFE slides against a precision machined race, by the looks of the rear i would think it is intended to spin around a precision machined shaft to match (unless the PTFE spins inside that steel tube in which case you probably fasten the tube itself to the swing arm, and the PTFE inserts to the shaft).

Do the PTFE inserts spin in the tube or are they interference fit in?

Do you have pics of the shims for the thrust surfaces? That is the area I am most curious about.

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 18 2014, 06:26 AM

I'm glad I didn't buy the rears when I was shopping last year. The slop seems way too much to fill with JB Weld (or more than I would be comfortable with at least) and the drawings really look like you are getting a new shaft.

I too am curious about the thrust surface. Did Clint provide ground shims or washers? These seem like they have a very small thrust surface area as well.

Do you know if anyone has used these before?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Sep 18 2014, 10:55 AM

I've only done the fronts and was worried about the JB Weld too until I thought it out. The load on the JB Weld is really only in shear (as the arm rotates) and with a good bearing and fit, the load is actually really small. Any compression loads are not high and I'm sure JB Weld has a metric ST of compression strength. So, sort of hokey, but fully functional and solves lots of other problems.

Posted by: crash914 Sep 18 2014, 11:17 AM

JB weld is some wonderful stuff....I rebuilt some damage on a front spindle with it on an old pick up truck I have. finished to size and the front wheel bearing slid right on....5 years later, no issues....It isn't a cure all for everything though..for that you need WD-40 and duct tape. Stay away from silicone sealer! or you will die

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 18 2014, 11:31 AM

The fronts are very different than the rear with regard to the assembly and the forces involved.

The a-arm (both F&R) brackets are retained by bolts. The bushing flanges and the flanges on the a-arm prevent fore-aft movement which has only a small force component.

The ends of the trailing arm assembly have to resist all the sideways forces from cornering, but the flanges aren't flat enough to support a proper thrust washer.
Not only that, the thickness of the thrust washers/bearings must add exactly the correct amount so the trailing arm pivots freely without sideways free play.
I've measured a significant length variation among a large collection of stock pivot shafts.
Since the steel sleeve has to be slid all the way through the trailing arm to install it, using any kind of liquid "glue" is questionable IMO.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 18 2014, 12:02 PM

oops

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 18 2014, 12:03 PM

double oops

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 18 2014, 12:03 PM

The PTFE inserts appear to be tight, I'll check that and also get a picture of the shim later today.

Below, I drew up a ruff idea of how Jonathon explained the install process to me.
2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

Clark

Posted by: 914_teener Sep 18 2014, 12:48 PM

Looks right.

Just make sure that the thrust surfaces....especially the serrated portion is engaged against the suspension console and that it is tight.

At the end of the day the control arm rotates around the pivot shaft.

If the pivot shaft end up coming loose, this could add up to a bad day.


Opps.....forgot to add:

Align everything...after you are done.

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 18 2014, 12:56 PM

I don't like that at all.
The welded end of the trailing arms is significantly out of round which will tend to squish the sleeve somewhat, making the bushing out of round.
I provide a sanding drum in my kits to prep inside the welded end - so the sleeve can be installed without causing deformation.

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 18 2014, 03:10 PM

I am totally gung-ho on the Rebel Racing front control arm bushing setup but have to admit I'm scratching my head a bit on the best method of installing the rears. There is a lot if slop between their machined stainless tube and the inside of the control arm tube. I can't imagine JB Weld being used to secure these parts together and keep everything properly aligned and spaced. I emailed Rebel Racing and asked them to join the forum discussion and pipe in with installation details. Let's see if they do. The front control arm bushings are a much closer fit and the JB Weld is ideal for securing the races to the control arms. I know there is a solution and we must be missing something in the absence of installation instructions.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 18 2014, 03:16 PM

I checked the "tight" end with a snap gauge and it isn't out of round. It is just slightly smaller that the other 3 ends.

I am to the point that I am either going to have to intall these or send them back.

Before I made the purchase, there were several commenters that like the rebel product, but now I am leery and the commenters make sense. The only folks giving positive comments have only used the front bushings from these guys.

More pondering from me as I wind down with a cocktail.

I did take a few pictures of the shims. They are not very thick and the inner dia is slightly larger than the pivot arm, Also the overall length of the assembly when centered allows the tube to stick out about 3/16".

Clark

Posted by: worn Sep 18 2014, 06:58 PM

I would thin you would want the stationary piece to be proud so it can b clamped in place as a bearing surface. Looks good to me. Thanks cause I have reached this point with the 3.2 build.

Posted by: lonewolfe Sep 19 2014, 10:29 PM

Hey Clark!

Did you install the rear control arm bushings yet? I had no luck reaching anyone at Rebel on the phone but emailed them a couple of days ago asking them to join the discussion in this forum. I've not gotten a reply back from them and it does not appear they've added anything to the topic on 914world. I've been trying to buy these rear bushings for almost a year, now I have them and I have to admit I'm disappointed so far. Mine have a lot of slop like the one in your video. I did not get a tight end on any of the 4 corners. If seems to me if these get JB Welded in place it will take quite a bit of JB Weld and I have to wonder how to center the their tube while the JB Weld sets up. I think that if this tube is not perfectly centered it would throw off the geometry of the rear suspension and cause some handling issues.

Posted by: a few loose screws Sep 20 2014, 06:16 AM

Very glad I read through this post.I was interested in the rebel product at first, not so much now. How does the elephant racing polyBronze kit install, as far as fit and finish? Not concerned about the ride, just wondering if its a nice fitting quality kit.

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 20 2014, 08:39 AM

I have been successful in reaching Jonathan at Rebel Racing, on the phone, 805-835-5809 or 805-550-8105 and also email, jonathan@rebelracingproducts.com. Clint has emailed a few times and they have a guy named Max monitoring the SALES@... email.

Jonathan is the most reliable to return your email or answer the phone. He says he has put the RSR product on the front and rear of his 911 and he likes them.

I found some great info about JB Weld online. Lots of people doing different stuff with it on YouTube.

However, I have decided to return the bushings. Jonathon replied quickly with info on returning them. I sent them back yesterday, I hope they will refund quickly as well.

During my rebuild, I spent the $$ buying the rubber ones for the front from Elephant, so yesterday I bought their rubber rears. They spell it out, you get pivot arms, bushings and a tool, instructions maybe even You-tube vids.

With all the back and forth, I ended up having Bruce send me some re-plated pivot arms and nuts, so now I have extra and have ended up spending way more $$$ than I planned on this. With all the shipping, extra parts etc.... All the while thinking I would save buying the RSR units. Live and learn I guess.

I have a daily driver, not a AX or race car, I need to remember that when I make decisions. Oh well, what's another couple hundred $ on this car going to mean anyway, right?

I hope this is an instance where they brought a product to market too early and just did not have all the details worked out, or that this is a side business or hobby, cause they did not leave me with a good taste in my mouth. If I had known either of the above, I would not have tried this, unless they gave them to me to be the beta tester. If I can help any other way, let me know, but I am OUT.

Clark

Posted by: Highland Sep 20 2014, 09:12 AM

Would the Tangerine Racing trailing arm assembly be more of a "plug and play" option?

Does anyone know if the $1195 is per arm or for a set?

Any experience with delrin bushings making noise?

Posted by: malcolm2 Sep 20 2014, 09:26 AM

Squeaking was my main concern. Folks said the RSR did not, others said you can make any of them not squeak, if you add grease. Then you hear grease and Poly don't go together.

You should call Chris on the Tangerine options. He mentioned a couple times on this post about welding and I did not want that.

OEM rubber solved all those problems for me. I think Elephant is the only one making rubber rears. Man, I am ready for this chapter to be over.

Posted by: MikeM Sep 20 2014, 09:44 AM

I am surprised that Rebel Racing has not been involved in this thread.
You'd think they would want to inform people about their product.

Posted by: Krieger Sep 20 2014, 11:46 AM

I installed the Elephant Poly Bronze kits front and rear as instructed and have about 3,500 miles on them. 1500 flat tow miles. The rest is about 800 miles time trial, 12 autocrosses and driving around. I have never heard a single squeak. I have greased them twice. I have checked all the bolts to make sure they are still torqued and not one has changed. No play in the suspension. Ride quality is good too. I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again.

Posted by: JamesM Sep 21 2014, 01:41 AM

I think you made the right call, given what I am seeing.

I think i am getting the general idea of their design, but there are 2 major problems i see with it.

1. It needs matching machined shafts out of the box. Anyone who has ever messed with poly bushings in the rear knows why.

2. The larger problem I see (greater then the slop between the tube and the control arm) is the fact that there is a gap with no spacer between the arm itself and the mounting ears. The rebel tube would appear to get shimmed and then held between the mounting ears, but as has been said, there is nothing to center the control arm on the rebel tube, and JB wouldn't be enough to stop the lateral movement there. It seems like an easy enough problem to fix with an additional bushing there, but out of the box, as is, i don't see this working.

This is pretty disappointing in that there still no one that makes a non-rubber solution for the rear that addresses all the issues.

I still stand by my previous statement that their front setup is amazing. Hopefully they figure out the rears or pull them, as this is disappointing.

Posted by: Philip W. Sep 21 2014, 05:33 AM

My rear trailing arms were newly powder coated by Bruce stone. I sent them to PM performance and Eric put in new bushings and pivot shafts. Also installed zerks. So I can tell you it all fit perfectly and no squeeking.

Posted by: 57lincolnman Sep 21 2014, 08:44 PM

I have the polybronze bushings from Elephant Racing and have been very pleased with these. They are very quiet and I get great handling response from them. I have Rebel Racing front bushings and these are very nice. They have to be lubed periodically but it is well worth it.

Posted by: Rob-O Sep 22 2014, 02:03 PM

I lightly skimmed this thread but thought I'd add this in case it wasn't brought up before. Back in the day when there was nothing but poly and factory (and as far as I remember you couldn't just buy the factory rubber bushings) the trick was to pull the rubber ones out, and then machine all three pieces. The inner shaft, the bushing and the control arm.

My pivot arms were rusted, so after rust removal we welded the shaft and then turned it down on a lathe. Got the measurement precise on the pivot then the bushings inner diameter was machined slightly to fit the pivot arm. The trailing arm was machined as well to get it in round so the bushing would fit correctly.

All of the poly bushings had different measurements. Even without a micrometer you could tell that they were different. One would fit perfectly, the next was tight on the same spot on the same trailing arm. The next was loose, and so on. That poly material seemed to swell as it got warm as I recall.

It sounds like Chris at Tangerine attacked this issue since he provides a hone to get the trailing arm portion round (assuming I read that correctly).

Ultimately, since rubber was used as the initial material, I doubt any of the aftermarket offerings will be perfect right out of the box. Not because they don't make a great product, but because the factory tolerances were never designed for a precise fitting bushing.

So, to me (and I worked in the polymers industry for a long, long time) we may be over engineering this problem. As long as you have a good bushing material and machine all four mating surfaces (the trailing arm housing, the bushing outer diameter, the bushing inner diameter and the pivot arm outer diameter), you should be fine and if the material is correct, squeak free.

Posted by: malcolm2 Oct 2 2014, 07:10 PM

UPDATE: Rebel stuff has been returned and my VISA has been credited. Today the elephant stuff arrived from PMB.

UPS from Cali to TN really sucks. Obama only takes 2 days and UPS takes about 6.

But it is here and it has instructions and tools to install the RUBBER BUSHINGS and NEW PIVOT ARMS. I am fired up about getting this done.

I didn't bring it up this weekend, but with all those cars driving around in that grass field in Townsend, TN I heard quite abit of squeaking.

Anyway here are a few pictures of the new Elephant stuff.



I will not be able to do anything with this 'til next week. My up and coming VOLUNTEERS are playing the gators on Saturday and I am going to be there.... If I was not taking 2 people I would drive the 914 to East Tn again this weekend.

More next week: Go Big Orange

Clark