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Posted by: Jeroen Feb 26 2003, 07:13 PM

I'll be shopping for a new set of 911 front struts soon, so I'd like to decide on what brand of shocks to use...

I'm still undecided. It'll be either yellow Koni's or Bilstein sports

I currently have the B-sports on my '87 carrera and I like them
But I've also driven Koni equiped cars, and couldn't really find much difference between them

Pro on the Bilsteins are the 'upside down' design and they won't be damaged when the suspension bottoms out.

On the other side, I think the adjustability of the Yellow Koni's would be nice feature too...

Whadda ya think???

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 26 2003, 08:02 PM

Yours is a track car, yes?

If so the adjustability of the Konis is gonna come in real handy at some point. Of course, having custom-valved shocks would be even better... In the US, Truechoice (I think it is) will rebuild Konis. I think that Bilstein USA will also. And either one will let you spec the valving...

Most of us (who think we have track cars but really have street cars we drive on the track) go with the Koni adjustables.

--DD

Posted by: fuch toy Feb 26 2003, 08:03 PM

Koni is a good thang.....

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 26 2003, 08:07 PM

Koni's Jeroen.

They really come alive with the roller bearing suspension. You can actually feel the difference between 1/2 a turn and a full turn when adjusting.


B

Posted by: Jeroen Feb 26 2003, 08:25 PM

Thanks... Koni's it'll be then

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: ChrisReale Feb 26 2003, 11:23 PM

Come on Dude..Koni's are made in Holland, which is the Netherlands, right?
I really like my Koni Sports. I am no Schumacher, but at the autocross practice I went to they were great.

Posted by: Rich Bontempi Feb 26 2003, 11:33 PM

I would reccommend the koni sports also!!

Posted by: Jeroen Feb 27 2003, 05:46 AM

Yep, Koni is from the Netherlands. Actually, the factory is only 10 or 15 miles from my home

Most of the other big names in specialty shox are from the Netherlands too (JRZ, Intrax, Profex). They all worked for Koni and started a business for them selves

Funny to see so little feedback on the Bilsteins though... The 911 crowd always seems to shout for Bisteins first

Thanks for the input all

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 27 2003, 09:20 AM

I have Bilsteins and I love them! :sweet:

Great for a street car and (mild) AX but they are not adjustable, except for the perches. They are stiff and have a great feel for the road, plus I got a good deal on them.

If I was racing my teen I would probably go with the Koni's, just to get every advantage I could get.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 27 2003, 11:32 AM

Yup! If you were building a street car, I would suggest the Bilsteins. They have a really very good tradeoff between handling and comfort. They seem to be about halfway in ride quality between the stock Boges and the hard Konis (set on full stiff), but only give up a little handling to the Konis.

But for a sort-of-race-car, the adjustability of the Konis wins hands-down.

--DD

Posted by: Alfred Feb 27 2003, 12:02 PM

I learned something new - I thought Koni was a German company.

Alfred

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 2 2003, 09:50 AM

I gotta choose.

I can pick up a set of 4 Koni Yellow Sports for about 600, plus shipping.

The Bilsteins (with insert for my Boge struts) will cost about 465, including shipping. Both new.

Recommendations? Car will be used for spirited street driving, and eventually the occasional autox.

-Rusty

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 2 2003, 10:03 AM

How old are you ??

I swear..age makes the decision. Young guy's like Chris Reale can put up with Bilsteins on the street. I'm getting old... I want both worlds.. A nice cushy car while driving around town and bump jumping bouncing race car when I want it. Koni's.

B

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 2 2003, 10:17 AM

I'm just enough younger than you, that I can call you old... ;-)

The Bilsteins will be that harsh? Hmm... something to think about.

Anyways - if anyone wants a line on a full set of Bilsteins for 465, shipped - go to http://www.performancemotorcars.com. I've had good luck ordering parts from them.

Thanks, Brad.

-Rusty

Posted by: Gint Jun 2 2003, 10:24 AM

What's your Koni source?

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 2 2003, 10:25 AM

Jason @ Paragon, of course. He's always first on my suspension parts shopping list. Got me a good deal on fronts for the 911.

The Koni's are Yellow Sport adjustables.

http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=914Koni
Front 8641-1077 Sport
Rear 8241-1050 Sport


-Rusty

Posted by: Gint Jun 2 2003, 10:27 AM

I figured....

Posted by: kdfoust Jun 2 2003, 10:43 AM

Why not Bilstein heavy-duty (the normal Bilstein not the sport)? Less pain, more filling

Yeah, I'm old.

Kevin

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 2 2003, 10:55 AM

Is there much difference, performance-wise? PMC carries both for the same price.

-Rusty

Posted by: Scott Jun 2 2003, 11:19 AM

OK...I'm old but here is my take on this. Bilsteins are fine but not adjustable. You pick a set strut rating and you have to live with it. Koni Sports are adjustable. Set them to softer for more bumpy surfaces and firmer for smoother ones. It's all about adjustability.

Posted by: kdfoust Jun 2 2003, 04:03 PM

I dunno. I just know that my car has those all the way around now.

Have fun,
Kevin

Posted by: Mueller Jun 2 2003, 05:49 PM

After reading the latest article in Excellence about the remote reservoir shocks by Smart Racing/Fox, I'd hold out for those


A complete set would run 2x (min) of the Koni's, but no comparison if they are as good as any of their other products....

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 2 2003, 07:59 PM

To me it was a no brainer.
I picked up a parts car for cheap and found a perfect set of billy's on it!

So Bilsteins on all 4 corners for me, they are stiff but not harsh. Sure are better than the worn out factory original boge's that were on our teen.

I did ride in a 914 with KYB's and found out why they call em Kill-Yer Backs.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 2 2003, 08:16 PM

I have KYBs on the back of my /6, and God only know's what it's in the front.

Posted by: EPK Jun 2 2003, 09:22 PM

I have had the Koni Yellow gas Sport Shocks on my 914 for a number of years now. They are just great. If you decide to AutoX you can adjust the tire pressures and the shocks, real nice feature. When you use the standard size tires and set them on full soft the ride is still firm but not buck board like at all. However on 50 series tires they can be a bit choppy, but still not bad. I woundn't even consider any other shock other than the ones in Mikes post and the remote cannister shocks are a different animal all together. Keep your old shocks if they are any good at all, if and when you sell your car take the Koni's off and sell them seperately, they have that good of a life span. Alternatley you can send them back to Koni for a factory referbishing. Great value and an excellent product[/SIZE]. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 2 2003, 09:52 PM

what is the difference between bilstein sports and HD? i have the sports on the rear. i bought them, because in the tweeks catalog, it said sports were for "shorter aftermarket springs". il like them. i need a set of fronts...i have basically no damping at all...its like a springboard! so im savinf for some shocks/tbars/swaybar......struts will come first. i do no AX-ing, but some SPIRITED (no, no alcohol involved ) driving. so are bilsteins good for the front? HD or Sport?

Posted by: aufaber Jun 3 2003, 10:31 AM

Most old guys I know wouldn't be able to handle the ride of the Koni Sports. Reds maybe, but yellows are getting pretty stiff for the street.

Haven't descided yet for myself. First priority is to replace the 15x11/9s (scary balloon tires) with some 17x9/7.5s from a boxster/911. Then new dampers.

-Aaron G>

Posted by: philinjax Jun 3 2003, 02:34 PM

You can buy the Bilstein HD inserts or shocks for the 914 stock Boge struts or rear
for $135.85 each plus shipping @ http://www.allshocks.com/bilstein/html/home.asp

I was lucky to win off eBay a new set of HD inserts for $139.00 plus shipping.

Phil

Posted by: krk Jun 3 2003, 02:36 PM

I checked with God. She says she doesn't know you.

kim.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 3 2003, 03:48 PM

Monroe roadhandlers would be my guess to go with the KYB on the rear.


Geoff

Posted by: Greg Silva Jun 4 2003, 10:56 PM

Rusty, just curious - which way did you decide to go with this?

Posted by: garyh Jun 5 2003, 12:07 AM

I have the Bilsteins. Sports, I guess (at the time, there was only one that actually fit).

If I had a 'do-over', I'd pick Konis. Externally Adjustable Konis.

When they were new, driving over the stripes in the road you could feel how recently they had been re-painted.

Even now, my full body weight won't move the fender down.

$.02,
Gary

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 09:33 AM

I will probably go with the Koni yellows from Paragon - unless Brad gets a better deal in his bulk purchase.

I want to redo my entire suspension at once. All the front, then all the rear. Clean, polish, powdercoat, new shocks, new bushings (already have turbo tie rod arms).

It's going to be quite the job, and I'm not looking forward to it.

-Rusty

Posted by: kdfoust Jun 5 2003, 10:01 AM

Doing the front suspension isn't so bad, and this is coming from ME, who'd rather do almost any thing than lay under the car every day. I'm into the project 3 weeks working a couple evenings a week and a little while on Saturday or Sunday. It'll be back on the road by Sunday

Have fun,
Kevin

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 10:28 AM

It's not just "doing the suspension"... it's all the cleanup, sand blasting, powdercoating, etc, etc.. that makes a weekend project into a 2 week ordeal.

I've decided on the powdercoating system I want to buy, now I'm looking around for a cheap electric oven.

-Rusty

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 5 2003, 10:35 AM

Rusty, your doing home powdercoating?

Details please!

Posted by: Mueller Jun 5 2003, 10:40 AM

Bilstien Sports are supposedly better suited for lowered cars.

The rod/piston assembly is shorter to help avoid bottoming out. The valving "supposed" to be the same as non-sports.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 10:54 AM

http://www.columbiacoatings.com/

This will be my first attempt at my own powdercoating. Ginter has been doing it for years, and the encouragement he gave me pushed me to do my own setup someday.

Go to their Online store, and look for the Chicago Electric Deluxe kit.

Posted by: Greg Jun 5 2003, 12:37 PM

So how do you determine if the existing Koni's or Bilsteins are worn out and need replacement? What is the average lifespan of these shocks?

Posted by: seanery Jun 5 2003, 01:27 PM

Rusty,

I don't know how you can find ANYTHING on that web page...wow, someone needs to help them out...
If someone finds the link post it here.

thanks,
sean

Posted by: aufaber Jun 5 2003, 02:30 PM

http://www.columbiacoatings.com/chicago_electric.htm

-Aaron G>

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 03:24 PM

Yeah, they probably need some help with their HTML, but I've read good review on other sites about their products and service.

Also, their powder is significantly less than Eastwood.

-Rusty

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2003, 04:03 PM

Need some suggestions. This is my driveway. Everyone seems to think the 914 was a fore runner of the Boxster. I think it preceeded the Cayenne. Seriously, its time for shocks (no surprise I'm sure). I'd like to get a little more performance than what's in it now. I've driven Geoff's car with stiffer torsion bars, front sway bar, 180s and I'm not sure what shocks. I think I could handle it on the street but I don't know about getting it up my hill.

Am I CRAZY?

Dave


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 04:36 PM

No, you are not crazy, just Autocross-ism-ized.

If you dont plan on AX, do 140 rears and the Koni's

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 6 2003, 04:40 PM

pardon my ignorance, :gilloutine: , but i need to do my whole front susp.
i just did the rear w/ bilstein sports/140 ln welts, . what size t-bars should i go with? and how much of a price difference is there between the koni yellows and the bilsteins? do i really need adjustability?

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2003, 04:48 PM

If the Koni sports are on full soft how harsh will it be going slowly over a gravel road with places where big rocks stick up a couple inches. I know spring rates, torsion bars, sway bar and tires are going to be a big imput too. But can I have a suspension that will be nimble enough for AX and comfortable to get up my driveway.

Dave

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 04:58 PM

Aaron,

Best prices I could find:

Full set of Koni Yellow Sports ~600, plus shipping. Paragon.

Bilstein set (HD or Sport) ~465, including shipping. Performance Motor Parts.

-Rusty

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 6 2003, 05:23 PM

to me, that is a grip of money! i work as a lifegaurd during the summer, and helping my uncle restore cars. i already need some tbars, a sway bar (have access to a stock one) and shocls...i want to do a five lug conversion and all eventually. but my struts are shot! i think for the sake of cost ill go with the bilsteins....

also...i have 140 is in the rear, so what size Torsion BARs should i use up front? 19mm or 21mm?

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 05:28 PM

Aaron, hold a sec.

If you plan on doing the upgrade to 5-lug, you might just want to look for a early 911 suspension complete, and save the money on front shocks and t-bars.

Why buy everything twice?

-Rusty

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 6 2003, 05:44 PM

well, as of last summer...i did a complete 4 corner brake job. (new discs, and a new right rear caliper ) so, i would hate to have to repack bearings and stuff again on perfectly good rotors. and a 911 fr. susp costs a lot of money. here are my costs to do a front susp and a 911 susp.

914 fr. susp
*new koni's or biltseins 480 - 600
*new tors. bars 289 - 300

911 fr. susp.
*complete bolt in unit 500? 600?
*need new shocks? ?
*need new Tors. bars? ?
* 5 lug fuchs 500 +/- trade of 4 lug fuchs
*re studding rear rotors ?
or new axles and stubs

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 06:00 PM

My Koni yellows were $165 each=$330
Torsion bars were $200.

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 06:02 PM

Drive my car at rhe next AX, I have Yellows, 22mm torsion bars, and 180lb springs and a 22mm Sway bar.

Still have street tires tho

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 06:05 PM

Well.. the choice is yours, of course. But you can run 5 lugs on the front and 4s on the rear... do the project step by step.

I'm cheap. I hate buying parts twice. Recovering investment, on even almost-new parts, sucks.

Maybe you can pick up some shocks on the classifieds or eBay.

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2003, 06:07 PM

Chris,

Can an old guy put up with the ride (I know Geoff is almost as old as me and he can)? Please give me some suggestions. I certainly wouldn't trust my suspension on the AX track. Got to feel confident that the rubber will meet the road before I trust my driving.

Dave

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 06:22 PM

I guess it depends what you want to do with the car. "I" think my ride is stiff, but it is not jarring. I dont have a sore back from driving it. I had originally planned on 140's for the rear, but I went for a ride in Geoffs car, and decided I liked 180's. Everyone makes them out to be harsh as hell, and it really isnt. If you want a sporty car that is fun, Id probably get 21mm front bars and 140 rears and a 19mm sway bar. Street Weltmeister bushings. Koni Yellows. That way, its competitive in AX suspension-wise, but more streetable for taking the wife to dinner without hearing an earful of complaints on how hard the car rides (so far, my girlfriend has said nothing about my ride quality, so that might be something to consider)

The Koni Yellows I got by chance also. Paragon was out of the reds, so I got the yellows. Im glad I did. Again, they are stiffer, but they are nice shocks, and I usually just leave them on full soft. It is nice to be able to adjust them by twisting the knob rather than doing it by taking the wheel off, unbolting the shock, turning it, then putting everything back together.

My ride is exactly the same as Geoffs, with the exception of my Yellows.

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 06:23 PM

Yes you can! Might be grounds to get one of those Renegade seats....!

Posted by: Mueller Jun 6 2003, 06:42 PM

This is for comparing Koni Reds to Koni Yellows (I think the Reds are no longer made for 914's)

http://www.koni.com/_cars/_general_info/technology/damping_forces.html

Has anyone run any of the off the shelf 914 shocks (Bilstien or Konis or KYB's or???) on a Shock Dynamometer to measure compression and rebound rates?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 6 2003, 06:49 PM

When these cars were new the suspensions were pretty tight. The rubber was new etc...
Change the 30 year old crap out to bring the car back to firm. If you are going for a more spirited type feel the 21mm tbars, and sway plus 180's in the rear are really the way to modernize the way the car handles. Remember, tires have come a loong way from the old 165 x 15 radials they came with. Is it too stiff,hmm only on the really beat parts of the Seattle roads, once out on the highway its very smooth and the control you feel is incredible.
Ok, Dave, I am almost 51 so how old are you? I don't think you are too old to really step up and enjoy what the car can really do including AXing it.
My girlfriend likes the way the car handles except on the really bad roads and she does drive pretty fast too.
If you want you can drive my car at the fun runs at the next AX. Just to get the feel.

Geoff

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2003, 06:57 PM

Hate to tell ya gilfiends don't complain much. Wives?

Still she doesn't ride in it much. the kids do and they love it. In fact thats my salvation, it's a nice kid dad thing so she has to put up with it within reason. When it looks like its a dad for dad thing I get some heat but as long as the kids are interested I'm on safe ground. It helps that the people I have met have been very encouraging to my son. So, thanks

I'm kind of hoping that Gerry might get interested in AX then I might be able to justify some new parts. In seriousness, I would spend money and time to build a car that is safe and at least somewhat competitive if Gerry is willing to race on the track and not on the street. I know that when I was young I did some really dumb things and I was just lucky I didn't hurt anyone. I haven't looked at it very close yet but I'm hoping PCA has some sort of driver's ed that encourages kid's to race like hell on the track but keep it under control on the street. If that's the case I'm all for new suspension, engine mods and whatever, mores the better if we can do it together.

Dave

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 6 2003, 07:41 PM

That was my reasoning with Blair also, to do the dad/son thing. I try to keep him from racing/driving crazy on the street and save it for the track. When we started AXing, David Said spent lots of time talking and riding along with Blair, teaching him the lines, how to be smooth. I never did get a ride along instructors and it shows since Blair drives pretty damn good now.
The girlfriend loves the top off drives as its are special thing to go for a drive.
My ex would have never accepted the car, so she's gone. But Monique recognizes that this is my hobby and passion, just like Brad's, or Mueller wife so I get time to do it.
Doing something like this with your son it well worth it, maybe Dad Roberts can chime in here!!! Blair has learned to take care of a car, pull engines, trannies, install turbos, and drive safely. He was in a serious car accident in January where a friend was driving and hit a stopped car. Blair swears he could have avoided the stopped car because of his experience AXing and NOT PANICING when something goes wrong. Driving skills are learned with lots of practice not out of a book.

Go with the Konis and the set up like Chris R says, you love it.
Geoff

G

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2003, 07:53 PM

Thanks Guys. I'll enjoy the car this summer, drop the engine this fall, repair some rust and upgrade the suspension, then go out and see that I have a lot to learn. Along the way Gerry and I will learn the ins and outs of the car and come up with something that's more fun and safer.

Dave

Posted by: Greg Silva Jun 6 2003, 11:42 PM

Geoff, Dave, Chris - I just managed to get caught up with some stuff and get to the board. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your discussion, and that it helped me a bunch. I'm 52 and just found out a few days ago that due to some physical stuff my autox days are over. I'd been kind of leaning toward the setup Chris talked about, and now feel pretty comfortable settling on the Koni yellows.

I just recently - about 3 weeks ago - bought an original '70 factory 6. 98k original miles, a 2.7 with CIS installed, and the original engine (minus the Webers which somebody snagged, who knows how long ago) included as part of the deal. Disappointed that I won't be able to take it around a course, but I'm focusing on getting it well as a street car, perhaps a daily driver. Anyway, it sat for 8 years (as it turns out) and we're having to go through the fuel and electrical systems, pretty much component by component to get it going. I'll post some photos as soon as it's moving under its own power.

In any event, thanks again for the helpful discussion.

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 7 2003, 09:14 AM

Just priced what I think I would need to do the suspension on the Paragon site. Man it adds up. Seems funny how so many changes you consider all cost about the same amount. Kevin, Geoff and I were talking at lunch after my dyno, and we were laughing about spending 2 grand at a pop. Thats about what everthing is except maybe paint and motors which are maybe 2 grand plus 2 grand plus(/6)? Oh well, its just money I guess. (By the way I didn't order that stuff yet). I'll have to think about it. Does brad supply that stuff? If he does I sure would rater send my money his way.

Just getting ready to head home over the Narrows Bridge, the Olympic Mountains will be out and I'll have the top off. Might be a little glimpse of heaven. I guess if I'm worrying about speding money on my car maybe I'll have to attach some value to 914 experience. I think I'll read that Zen post first.

Dave

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 7 2003, 09:30 AM

Brad is working on a group buy for some konis. He might be able to get some of the parts too, don't know. He isn't in the parts business. GPR, HPH, and PP are. Call and get quotes from those guys as you will get the parts ahella lot sooner than from Brad. Get your son to help install em so he'll learn about cars, grease, sway bars and all that cool stuff. All invaluable lessons that they don't teach in school.
Wish I was going over to the Olympic Mts!!! That is one place where if you are lucky on a clear day you can see a little bit of Heaven.
Geoff

Posted by: Mueller Jun 7 2003, 11:43 AM

Dave,

For a street car I'd just make sure everything is in good working order before I start to spend big bucks.....in order to enjoy a 914, it does not have to have a bunch of fancy or aftermarket suspension parts on it.

Stiff suspensions on street cars suck, plain and simple unless you are blessed to live in an area with perfectly smooth roads.

For most people that just want to drive thier car and enjoy it, stock is fine (factory swaybars included), you can lower it a tad bit, but other than that leave it alone.

Big swaybars, big torsion bars and stiffer shocks are for most people bragging rights.....now it makes sense to do all these upgrades if competeing with others that have done the similar changes, and you can no longer remain competive (if you cannot drive, all the add-ons in the world will still leave you a piss-poor driver)

Currently, my 914 is bone stock, I don't even have swaybars on it (this is changing this weekend), the car is a blast to drive and depending on the road, I'd rather be behind the wheel of my 914 instead of my 911 (lowered, big fat tires....but too stiff most of the time, maybe I'm getting old, LOL)

I really hope that once I redo my 914 suspension, that it won't be too stiff as well.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 7 2003, 12:16 PM

Stock sucks IMHO...
The best combo for the money is the 19mm tbars & sway bar with 140's in back. Konis all around red or yellow.
Some kind of upgrade other than 30 year old rubber bushings that are shot. Turbo tie rods. Then whatever size of tire:195x60 for plain old street comfort driving-205x50's for more feel and tighter driving are prefect for an all around car.
The worn out stock suspension is like driving a 65 Caddy, a lazy all over the place ride.
Yuck, and I have driven plenty of these. Seems like everybodies car that I try is like this in the NW.
I have taken it further for the AXing but I won't go any further than adjusting/tuning my setup, no matter what Blair says. I do like driving the car too much on the street/highway.
Geoff

Posted by: Mueller Jun 7 2003, 02:07 PM

Yea, but it's not the worst thing in the world to have a stock suspension, to me, it's sorta fun tossing around a car that is loose....it also sounds like Dave got a little concerned with the price of doing the upgrades...

I'd just hate to see someone spend thier hard earned cash on things they don't need....."wanting" upgrades is a different story

I'm in the middle of taking my front suspension apart right now (came in for a coffee break, I know, it's in the mid-70's and I'm drinking coffee )

I'm looking at the $$$$$ that I should be spending on new turbo-tie rods, ball joints, brake lines...etc, etc and wondering what the heck can I sell to help finance all of these parts

Posted by: Greg Silva Jun 7 2003, 02:47 PM

Chris mentioned street Weltmeister bushings. Does anybody have any other thoughts about replacement bushings for a street car? Mike?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 7 2003, 03:18 PM

Mike, Dave's car hasn't had any upgrades that I know of. Still pretty much stock with how knows how old of parts. It drove that way. It was ok, not completely toast but still old feeling to me. So how many years has it been without any money put in to it? Thats how I look at it. Should? Well that's the question of what he wants to do with the car. Nice set up for either just street or street/AX is still about the same $$. Upgrading to your needle bearings or Smart racing sway bars really up the ante in $$$$.
Daves car is really nice in the shape its in, but I felt it is time to do some repairs on it. Tie rods at the minimum.

I thought the needle bearings are only for track because they aren't sealed at all and any water or road crap will kill them.

Geoff

Posted by: Mueller Jun 7 2003, 04:39 PM

Greg,

At a minimum, the stock rubber bushings should be replaced with plastic bushings. The rubber bushings are not vulcanized to the factory a-arms or trailing arms, but after so many years of use/abuse, they almost seem like it.

What is happening with the rubber bushings is that they are squeezing the shafts of the arm, basicly acting like a friction brake (take a broom handle or something similar in one hand, with a loose grip you can spin the handle with the other hand, now tighten your grip and try to spin the handle....in will be difficult to spin the handle due to the tighter grip on it....)

The rubber is not allowing the suspension to travel freely without adding resistance. With properly installed plastic bushings, the suspension will move up and down much more freely, but even then they are a comprimise due to noise and they will wear down since the plastic is softer than the steel shafts (the paint on the shafts will wear off first, then the plastic)
Sure, they can be greased, but if not maintained, the wear will happen.

Now that I think of it, that is how I am approaching my 914, when I got the car, it came with reciepts up the ying/yang but just by looking at the suspension, i can tell it's been neglected for years and years.

Can the needle bearing be used on the street? No problem at all, but, they have to be installed with plenty of quality grease (boat trailer wheel bearing grease works good, but I think any good quaility wheel bearing grease is going to work good since they all are pretty resistance to water, the main thing about the boat grease is that it's designed for the thermal shock as well since the bearings could be hot from trailing the boat and now they'll be subjected to cold water when the boat is backed into the water)

The needle bearings do have o-rings (a-arms and rear trailing arms) but use of RTV to help seal everything is highly recommended. Unless one gets under the car with a high pressure washer or steam cleaner, the grease will be fine for a few years.

Now for Dave, I'd recommend plastic (properly installed and lubed) since the needle bearings are on the high side cost wise. Would these work with a stock suspension? You bet, but I don;t see too many people spending this kind of money on a stock 911 or 914 suspension.

There are 3 ways to get better times on the auto-x or big track and to have more enjoyment on the street;
(rated best and most practical as well as most cost effective)

1) Driver improvement

2) A properly tuned and working suspension (nothing binding)

3) More horsepower (and possibly better brakes, which sorta fall under #2)

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 7 2003, 05:12 PM

This discussion is great. Geoff's right nothing has been done to my suspension except for new struts in the mid nineties and I replaced a broken rear spring sometime, so I'm due to spend some money. But Mike's right too, I know, the stock setup is a fun road car and I'm sure that improvements in driving skills are the single best thing I could do. I raced boats when I was young and good drivers could make backyard trash win but bad drivers couldn't win with good equipment unless everybody else broke. Actually, that happened a lot

The picture I posted of my driveway doesn't due it justice, it's a nightmare and I'm sure it has trashed most everthing that was rubber or plastic. I'm not concerned about spending the money on something I will enjoy, I just don't want to make a mistake. I want to get it right. First, the car will be primarily a street car. It looks like AX is in the future, so I'll compromise a little on comfort. The good news for me is I have some time to think about it. The engine comes out next fall for cancer repair and I'll make suspension changes when I put it back together. At the very least, it'll get new stock stuff if I change my mind on AX, most likely it will get something between stock and Geoff's setup and depending on what I find it may not all happen at once.

Dave

Posted by: Greg Silva Jun 7 2003, 05:25 PM

Mike, thanks very much for the thoughts. One more question, which I realize will require a pretty subjective answer, especially since the needle bearings are so new - Any sort of a WAG as to how long (or how many miles) they might be expected to last on a strictly street-driven car?

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 7 2003, 06:11 PM

I think Weltmeister makes a Street and Race version of their suspension bushings. I have heard that for most normal use with AX thrown in, the Street variety is the better choice.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jun 8 2003, 04:04 AM

I guess there's room for one more opinion on this subject:

Starting with shocks- Bilsteins add spring rate since they are high pressure gas. Using them with stock t-bars and 914-6 rear springs (100lb) improves the ride tremendously. I like the fact that they are non-adjustable, one less thing to think about. The way their function was described to me is that their rate is speed dependent. They act stiffer as the bumps hit the tire faster. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Also, its not hard to AX with this setup. I have done this in one of my 914s with no sway bars and done fairly well. The body roll is a little unnerving but not a problem. The only problem is applying power coming out of turns, but by adding a front swaybar this is also improved a bunch.

Whats wrong with investing a little at a time, instead of dropping the whole bundle at once? Nothing! As long as the car remains balanced you can upgrade slowly. By adding a 19mm adjustable front sway bar you can tune the suspension to the other changes being made. I do suggest using the same shocks all around and changing them at the same time though.

BTW, the Bilsteins on the rear of my FP race car are the same ones I bought in '85 when it was a street car! I will probably send them back to Bilstein for revalving since the rest of the suspension is quite stiff now. The fronts would still be the ones from '85 if not for some major damage I did in a crash 8 years ago.

If the Bilsteins and stock T-bars/100s aren't stiff enough then just add 140s at the rear and stiffen the front sway bar. Then later on add the 21mm torsion bars and soften the sway bar to rebalance things.

As far as bushings goes, the Weltmeister plastic crap sucks big time. They are the inexpensive way to go, but require a lot of fitting for them to work. Even after careful installation they may (will) bind and squeek. Sometimes they are loose in the housing instead of on the shaft, so they pivot on the wrong surface. The needle bearings are great if you want to spend a bundle, and plan on occasional maintenance. The Weltmeisters will need replacement at nearly the same intervals as the bearing maintenance. BTW, I think Shine Racing has a lifetime warranty on their needle bearing kits.

I came up with a compromise that is cheaper than needle bearings for the rear. Still haven't done a front setup. I have Delrin bushings and trued up shafts in stock for replacing the rubber, that gives smooth, non-binding suspension travel, but it is not a DIY deal. It takes special tooling that I have.I think even with shipping it is less $$ than the needle bearings, and your only labor is removal and reinstallation on the car. If the trailing arms have the boxed reinforcement my way is definitely better. The bore in the trailing arm will not be round and requires reaming, which my upgrade involves anyway. I have found that unreinforced arms also are not always round enough to install the needle bearings properly either. I also install grease zerks with the bushings so they never have to come apart.

Posted by: tod914 Jun 8 2003, 06:26 AM

I recently had bilsteins put on my car with 100lb shocks, new bushings, and yoko avs es 100s. finally got it aligned properly. handles real nice. however,
given a choice in shocks between adj koni and bils,
i would take the koni's hand down. my 73 had the adj konis and i absolutely loved them. It was so nice being able to adjust them acording to what type of driving you were doing; long trip v perf driving.
the dif in ride i would have to say is, the bils seem abit more "bouncy/deliberate". offering very good road feel but a firm ride. the konis in comparison, if they were adj for perf driving, were stiff, but didnt have that bouncy type feel to them. I guess to properly compare, you have to have them on the same car with the same set up. but based upon the 2 cars i had, i would opt for standard konis adj, if i could do it again.