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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Engine gurus, Where do I go next? Tore down 2270
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:33 PM
I drove 160 miles Wednesday trying to seat the rings. I used 3 1/2 quarts of oil. I would have made a Navy destroyer proud.
So, today I went looking for reasons. There was a small leak at the oil pump so, I resealed that and a little oil on the bottom of the oil filter. Neither could explain my oil consumption so off with the heads (and PCs too).
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:35 PM
The engine goes like a bat outa hell but, it smokes like my old Mercury outboard.
Here's the intake port of # 3. All of them look the same.
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Posted by: ws91420 Jan 29 2005, 03:36 PM
Not knowing your level of expertise my first thought were the ring gaps offset when you installed the pistons and did you notice burning oil in the exhaust
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:37 PM
Cylinders 1 and 2 with oil in them.
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:38 PM
Cylinders 3&4
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:39 PM
Carbon buildup in chambers. Total mileage is 359 on the engine
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:41 PM
Carbon on pistons. The rings have moved since I intalled them but, not a lot
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 03:43 PM
The only thing I could see was all the skirts showed piston slap.
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Posted by: Series9 Jan 29 2005, 03:55 PM
Wow! 
It's almost like the pistons are too small for the cylinders. I'd take some measurements.
That's a LOT of oil in the barrels.
I'll be interested to see what develops.
Posted by: TimT Jan 29 2005, 04:01 PM
| QUOTE |
| It's almost like the pistons are too small for the cylinders. I'd take some measurements. |
werdwhat is the piston/cylinder clearance?
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 04:10 PM
Dave, that looks very odd, almost like the engine never warmed up!
It also looks like the oil had some contamination, because piston/skirt clearance issues usually severely damage the portion of the pistin directly under the oil ring, and totally smoke it.
The piston/cylinder clearance was set by the Nikisil platers themselves using the pistons used in the engine! We use .0015 as a standard clearance with these cylinders and pistons and this has never occured before.
I want to see those cylinders and pistons- something odd is going on here. With those same components I have never seen this before. My new 2316 has the same cylinders and same clearance, my pistons came from the same batch as Dave's and so did the cylinders.
Posted by: Reiche Jan 29 2005, 04:16 PM
Sorry to see that Dave. Wish I was an engine guru.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 04:20 PM
I'm also sorry to see it, but its one of the quirks that come along with being an "Engine builder".. Weird things happen that are sometimes never explained. When you take on the assembly of an engine to get the satisfaction of doing it yourself, you also must accept all the negative parts of the tasks at hand.
For those that don't want these risks, you can get it hot off the dyno- proven.
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 29 2005, 04:41 PM
I guess I'd start by checking the following:
piston to cylinder clearance, piston ring end gap, ring groove clearance, cylinder wall taper
Before you tore the engine down did you do a compression and leak down?
I'm guessing that you ran non-detergent oil? That used to be the generally accepted break in oil for nickasil cylinders.
Another from the hip thought would be if the engine was running very rich the rings may not seat properly.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 04:51 PM
All the things mentioned in the last post were checked on this end, because he purchased a full custom kit from me..
I am with you on the rich running, thats the first thing that will cause this because it actually takes the oil from the rings.
Fuel is a solvent, not a lubricant.
It almost looks like the excess fuel increased friction, scuffed the cylinders a tad and helped wipe out the rings.... I bet the ring gap is excessive now, thats why I want to see them.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 29 2005, 04:55 PM
Dave, pull off a set of rings and use feeler gauges to measure the ring end gaps, Please?
Geoff
Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 29 2005, 04:59 PM
Air cooled is not my thing but, who did the heads? Check the stem to guide clearance. Do the type IV heads have oil seals on the top of the guides?
That's a serious burn deposit on the piston tops and combustion chambers!
The other possibility is the crank case venting. Check the inside of the far end of the vent tubes to see if there is raw oil coming through. I attempted to modify my crank case venting once. The method I used caused the vent hose to act like a drinking straw. I had a clear line for a vent hose and you could actually see the oil move through the line just as a huge plume of oil smoke came rolling out the exhaust!
Also, The scuffing on your pistons skirts could have come from the early injection problems you were experiencing.an over rich condition could have been washiing out the oil control ring.
One problem I see is too many modifications going on at one time. You have a freah big bore motor with the potencial to have many issues that will need to be worked through, then you attempted to install an untested injection system without a good solid base line function. 
I admire your drive and persistence. Hang in there you'll get it! 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 05:07 PM
That was a full kit of mine.
As for too many mods at once- Not a chance internally... I would have ran carbs for a bit before doing the EFI install though.
As for the heads, they were prepped for Dave by Len Hoffman and passed my checks for approval. .0012 stem to guide clearance but no valve stem seals. (stem seals alter oiling on aircooled engines and we don't run them unless the valves are DLC coated, or made from Titanium)
I just looked up dave's ring gaps here..
They were .015 on the second ring and .016 That is text book for his combo.
There was nothing odd with this set up, nothing first time, nothing crazy... I think the fuel got it.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 29 2005, 05:12 PM
It ran pretty much smoke free with the test carbs once we got the firing order right.
Geoff
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 05:40 PM
Thats what I was just thinking...
I think that fuel was the enemy.
It wouldn't be the first time I have seen that happen to an engine.. Happened to a 911 engine I built a few years ago and a 2270 that had a bad carb on it last year, while it was on the dyno.
Doesn't take long on a new engine..
Posted by: Mueller Jan 29 2005, 05:44 PM
a little late now, but you think it has anything to do with the plumbing of the crankcase ventilation?
too bad you cannot throw a set of carbs on it to see if that changes anything.....I remember you saying your intake plenum and runners had oil in them, is that correct?
no chances that the dip stick is incorrect and that you had too much oil in the motor??
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 05:47 PM
Damage is done now. The pics of the rings look more and more rough every time I look at them.
You can never have enough crankcase ventilation- never...
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 06:31 PM
Here's the top ring #1 .017 at the base
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 06:32 PM
Same ring and cylinder at the top .018
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 06:42 PM
2nd ring #1 .020
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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 06:43 PM
Here's the best I can do showing the wear on the rings
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Posted by: 914GT Jan 29 2005, 06:48 PM
Correct crosshatch pattern on those cylinders? Didn't possibly overfill the crankcase before initial startup?
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 29 2005, 06:48 PM
This isn't exactly the way I wanted things to go. But, I'm sure it will all work out in the end. This is something I did with my son so now I get to show him how adults handle disappointment 
. I think I'll have a beer or 2 
. I gotta admit I'm learning a lot.
Dave
Posted by: bondo Jan 29 2005, 06:55 PM
I'm not quite an engine guru, but it seems to me that something must be wrong on the intake side of things for that much oil to be ending up in the intake. Is everything hooked up right in the PCV valve department? Are you running a common pelenum? is it full of oil? I'm just sort of thinking out loud and hoping something will be helpful. It's sad to see bad things happen to a nice engine.
Posted by: DuckRyder Jan 29 2005, 07:01 PM
You got Jake on the job, so I'm sure the bottom will be gotten to on this, but:
In order for there to be oil on top of the intake valves and in the intake tract it would have to have such bad ring seal that it was pushing the oil into the intake through the crankcase vent system. The rings don't look that bad from what I can see.
Perhaps there are two issues.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 07:21 PM
Crosshatch pattern was set up and left from the Nikisil platers, just like the other 60 engines I have built with Nickies- No changes there.
I am confident the fuel washed the lube away early on, wore the rings and things went down hill from there.
He has experienced .005 ring wear since the engine fired up, thats mopre than it should see in 40-50K miles IMHO
Those rings don't really wear at all in the Nickies, something acted as a catalyst- no doubt and I bet it was all the fuel...
As for the oil in the ports- Whenyou have that much oiland crankcase pressure is boosted on cecel/accel the oil will find its way through.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 29 2005, 07:28 PM
So he can just re ring? of course clean up the mess.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 29 2005, 07:39 PM
dave, do you still have the oil from the motor when you took it apart?
did it smell like gas?
i ask because we took a 2 liter apart last night that looked just like your engine, same symptoms and the oil had a strong gas-smell to it.
the engine had a leaking injector and ran way too rich ...
Andy
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 07:42 PM
With Nikisil its not quite that simple.. You can't just re-ring, or atleast I never would..
Stuff is on its way to me, just talked to Dave...
Posted by: TimT Jan 29 2005, 07:45 PM
| QUOTE |
| With Nikisil its not quite that simple.. You can't just re-ring |
errr why not?
If the Nikasil cylinder meets spec, why cant you re ring?
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 08:07 PM
The new rings probably would yet again have a hard time seating.
Any cylinder should be rehoned before a Re- Ring... The extra roughness scrubs the rings in for a faster and better seal....
Posted by: newdeal2 Jan 29 2005, 08:14 PM
I'm sure glad I did my first rebuild on a simple 2.0. It's helping a lot to listen and see these issues. I just happened to start out on the lean side not noing that a rich mix would cause problems like this.
Sorry it happened my friend. It's no fun having to take her apart and find that mess
Posted by: newdeal2 Jan 29 2005, 08:19 PM
BTW...I'm no expert [yet] but shouldn't the plugs be checked a few times durring break in just to gauge air/fuel mix, etc? That's what I have been doing ever since working thru carb issues on my GT6. I had some fun with "color tune" . It was pretty cool.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 08:50 PM
This is odd with one of my kits.. In fact its a first to my knowledge.
I have supplied a 15 year old with a kit and he assembled it and now it has 70K miles on it...
In the world of mechanicl things you never know what the next turn of events may be..
Try fighting issues like this as a life- it sucks!
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 29 2005, 09:06 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 29 2005, 06:07 PM) |
| The new rings probably would yet again have a hard time seating. Any cylinder should be rehoned before a Re- Ring... The extra roughness scrubs the rings in for a faster and better seal.... |
Odd.
With in spec Nikasil cyls (Mahle) the guy that sold me pistons had *very specific* instructions for getting the rings to seat....a bit odd I thought, but it worked.
Clean the cyls throughly (ID, of course) with soap & water.
Install the rings *dry*. Fire it up. & go play. The rings seated in prolly 50-60 miles. Non-detergent oil stayed in for 100 miles. I gotta admit, it was an act of faith.
I have found no one that recommends re-honing Nikasi cyls (till now).l
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2005, 09:17 PM
Another reason I recommend it is because this situation must be further investigated rather than simply slammed back together and ran.
This issue is so odd that it deserves some looking into.
I also want to ensure that the fuel didn't wear the plating either, so this won't effect engine life for Dave later on.
I'm sure there are corners that could be cut and if it was my personal engine I probably would cut them- But not for someone else.
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2005, 07:30 AM
Mike
I thought of the dipstick and overfilling. Early on I checked it against the 1 on my old engine.
Andy the oil smells burned not gassy. This is the 4th time the oil has been changed. Each time it was very black. I don't recall fuel smell.
My first sign that there was something odd was at about 90 miles. I'd driven close to home up until that time. It was a nice day so I went over to visit Kevin. About 20 miles. When I turned onto his street the oil light came on. We checked and it was way down and I added a quart. We blasted around a short route and I started home. I stopped at a station to check it again and it needed another half a quart so i stopped at a NAPA and bought a case. I suspected a big mess under the car but, there wasn't anything. I Emailed Jake and he told me to thrash it to seat the rings so, I did for the next couple hundred miles (lots of fun, lots of oil too).
It might be a little tight on making WCC this year.
Dave
Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 30 2005, 01:04 PM
dave, forget that engine for the wcc, unless you can get assembled and going. put the old engine back together and install it. if you need some f.i. items to complete it, come over and grab what you need off the 2.0 sitting on the garage floor.
k
Posted by: cnavarro Jan 30 2005, 03:10 PM
There is enough nikasil on those cylinders to allow for a light dusting with the honing machine, nothing that will cause a noticable chance in clearance or longevity. For the cost of rehoning and the fact that the nikasil is on there a tad thicker than mahle did it (so that they could be re-honed), it's worth doing that rather than the typical technique of scotch briting the bore or other methods of de-glazing the bore.
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
Posted by: jwalters Jan 30 2005, 06:12 PM
Not to tell anybody --anybody is wrong, but a euro shop I used to work in, the owner routinely honed 6 cylinders with never an ill result, at the time I thought they would surely grenade..
I always thought that honing nickasil was a no-no---but he proved it to me time and again-----
He also did the 928 engines and the mercedes V-8's this way----Learn something new everyday for sure--- 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 30 2005, 06:15 PM
I don't play with peoples money that way.
Half assed bullshit don't cut it when working with this amount of an investment.
Thats why they'll go back to the platers if I think they need to be re-honed.
Posted by: jwalters Jan 30 2005, 07:15 PM
He never played with anybodies money--he told the customer what he could do vs cost--and also informed them that he could never guaranty the outcome---the customers made the decision and everything turned out well, everytime--
There ARE reputable repair shops out there, I worked for him and know this as fact--He is also a very good friend to this day,he has helped me with advice and parts when he really did not need to,.... he also gave me a job when I was down and out when he really did not need another worker---for you to slam him w/o knowing the details is wrong dude--I am calling you out on this one--bad dude, really bad...
Hunt--I hope everything works out for the best man---
Posted by: r_towle Jan 30 2005, 08:39 PM
I hope this can keep being shared with us here online, if not I completely understand...I am learning a few good bits from this thread...just wanna find out why it happened the way it did...
Rich
Posted by: newdeal2 Jan 30 2005, 09:12 PM
| QUOTE (DNHunt @ Jan 30 2005, 05:30 AM) |
| Mike I thought of the dipstick and overfilling. Early on I checked it against the 1 on my old engine. Andy the oil smells burned not gassy. This is the 4th time the oil has been changed. Each time it was very black. I don't recall fuel smell. My first sign that there was something odd was at about 90 miles. I'd driven close to home up until that time. It was a nice day so I went over to visit Kevin. About 20 miles. When I turned onto his street the oil light came on. We checked and it was way down and I added a quart. We blasted around a short route and I started home. I stopped at a station to check it again and it needed another half a quart so i stopped at a NAPA and bought a case. I suspected a big mess under the car but, there wasn't anything. I Emailed Jake and he told me to thrash it to seat the rings so, I did for the next couple hundred miles (lots of fun, lots of oil too). It might be a little tight on making WCC this year. Dave |
I put in 4 quarts of oil each change [and I think just a tad over 3.5 is more to what is spec in manuals] and It sits high on the dip stick but so far eveything is cool.
How much is "too much"
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 30 2005, 09:47 PM
jwalters,
Call me out if you want but there aren't many times I get scolded for trying to do the job right. Sure there may be other ways to do this simpler, but they require Dave having to wonder again when he gets the thing put back together .
What I was trying to say is that the parts are coming back here, then they are going to Charles and then they are going to the platers- Period.
This is the first time this has happened, and it will not go without solid reasoning and a full diagnosis on what happened. Every time I build something that fails I look until I find the issue, no matter what it takes. If not it could come back to haunt me again later and that always cost time and some puked up blood from a bleeding ulcer.
I wasn't saying the guy that showed you that was wrong, I was simply saying that it won't be happening to these parts- period. They will be going back to their birthplace for observation by the experts that plated them.
BTW, I run 4 quarts of oil as a standard in my cars and engines that are on the dyno, it won't do weird things till you dump in atleast 5.5 quarts and rev the piss out of it.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 30 2005, 10:10 PM
There is the "right way" to do things in business and then all the other ways that most times work out fine.
I my business I have to waranty the work (25 yrs in construction) so its done my way even if the owner signs off on a piece of paper. Why? That paper is just that when you get to court, just a piece of worthless paper.
I think the "experts" should have a chance to look at the parts in question and then make a decision. DaveHunt wanted the motor to last for quite a while, that was the whole point in the Nikkies.
Geoff
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 30 2005, 10:15 PM
Exactly.
Posted by: newdeal2 Jan 30 2005, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 30 2005, 07:47 PM) |
| jwalters, Call me out if you want but there aren't many times I get scolded for trying to do the job right. Sure there may be other ways to do this simpler, but they require Dave having to wonder again when he gets the thing put back together . What I was trying to say is that the parts are coming back here, then they are going to Charles and then they are going to the platers- Period. This is the first time this has happened, and it will not go without solid reasoning and a full diagnosis on what happened. Every time I build something that fails I look until I find the issue, no matter what it takes. If not it could come back to haunt me again later and that always cost time and some puked up blood from a bleeding ulcer. I wasn't saying the guy that showed you that was wrong, I was simply saying that it won't be happening to these parts- period. They will be going back to their birthplace for observation by the experts that plated them. BTW, I run 4 quarts of oil as a standard in my cars and engines that are on the dyno, it won't do weird things till you dump in atleast 5.5 quarts and rev the piss out of it. |
Good thing...I didn't think it was a big deal [the oil question that is]
Keep the customer satisfied Jake, it's the only way. I agree it needs to be gone over in detail to find the source...odd thing
Consulting with this group and people of your expertise was key to the sucess I have had with my rebuild so far. The "right" break in is crucial.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 30 2005, 10:31 PM
I learn a ton every time we have some sort of a failure...Learning from it and applying what it taught you keeps it from happening again later. Thats part of what people are paying for when they come to me.
Only a fool makes the same mistake twice.
Posted by: newdeal2 Jan 30 2005, 10:38 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 30 2005, 08:31 PM) |
| I learn a ton every time we have some sort of a failure...Learning from it and applying what it taught you keeps it from happening again later. Thats part of what people are paying for when they come to me. Only a fool makes the same mistake twice. |
And quantity, in this case definitly equals quality
BTW...I may need to get one of your kits. My wife want's a/c
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 31 2005, 05:59 AM
Jake he would have to hone it re ring it and fix the fuel trouble but what about the piston's he cant run those can he? Can they be dressed up a little and reused? The skirts look ruff. Would a leak down check on the cyl have shown blow by? Those brass head vent's look too small of an ID. When he run's it again can an exaust gas analyser of some such tool be used to check his FI? Is his FI system one that takes an laptop to tune it? If I were him since it is apart I would send the whole set of piston's and rings and cylinders to you for inspection and dressing things up an hone and the piston's? and ship them back with an new set of fitted rings. All at the owners expence.... Getting the cylinders and pistons back in shape is not the issue. The issue is the fuel or what ever did the dammage. He does not need a repeat of this bad experience. Good Luck.
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 31 2005, 08:32 AM
I have the utmost confidence in Jake and Charles. I know they will come up with a solution for this situation.
The first reason I took this on was to have a one on one experience with my son. Jake suggested that he build this engine for me and the cost of the labor to assemble it was I thought very reasonable. It is a little like the commercial where cost keep climbing but the out come is priceless. Both Gerry and I will remember it fondly.
The experience has been great unfortunately, the build hasn't worked out the best yet. However, it's still a great learning experience for my son. He pulled the heads off of it and saw all the oil. He asked me "What are you going to do Dad? Are you going to sue Jake?" I said "No Ger, we're going to find out what's wrong and fix it?" He was pissed but I hope he saw that confrontation isn't the best solution. I don't know if it's anyone's fault. It could be an unfortunate set of circumstances.
The second reason I built this was to learn about the engine. I haven't been disappointed there. I'm just learning more than I wanted. All through this Jake has let us try things on our own and then if we had question we could bounce our solutions off of him and he'd say go or no go. He never told us do this or do that. That was fine cause it made the leasons self taught. I intend to keep up this arrangement so, I'm learning as much as I can about this failure, then the pistons, rings and cylinders are off to Jake.
I'll certainly do my best to keep you posted.
Dave
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 31 2005, 08:46 AM
Dave,
I really appreciate customer's like you that do understand issues that can occur when doing things out of the ordinary. The guys that don't understand and go off half cocked don't get near as much support from me, if any.
Reasons like this is why I stopped giving a warranty on complete engines after they leave my possession, because I can't be in control of them and anything can kill one, be it fuel contamination or a 17 year old driver...
Thanks again for your business and most of all for your understanding.
As for the pistons, I think they are okay with a little dressing, but we'll make the final call when they get here for observation.
When a customer choses a kit over a full engine- they become an engine builder and must assume all responsibilities of the act. Even with my carefully prepared parts and machining things can still go sour if given the chance.
6 years ago when I started the kits, the only reason I did it was to cater to the guys that wanted my engine, but didn't want me to build it. It normally didn't save the builder any money, just gave him the opportunity to put it together.
The days of the custom kits are 100% gone, now the kits are cheaper and sold as standard units based from my most successful kits of the past without variables. Nowdays you can choose how much help you want from us, and balancing isn't even included anymore, but it is an option.
Posted by: davep Jan 31 2005, 08:58 AM
I believe that Dave, Jake et al are doing the right thing. Dave used this build as a family project. He may have made some mistakes, and if so, he will learn from it. One very old rule is that 'you learn more from your mistakes than from your successes'.
My guess is that the brass barb fittings for the head vents were too restrictive. I am having to use some on a project, and they are a real headache in terms of flow. In conjunction with his FI experimentation it may have been more than the engine could handle. However, this is just a wild guess on my part. It will be interesting to get the official diagnosis from the experts.
Posted by: red914 Jan 31 2005, 09:06 AM
i, for one, truly appreciate reading this, for two reasons. first, i learn more about the engines (heaven knows i need to). second, and perhaps more importantly, i get my faith in men restored. Dave's approach is what i hope mine would be in similiar circumstances. Jake's response is also what i hope mine would be.
two honorable men working together to solve a problem. it would be nice to see more of this in the world.
thanks, Dave and Jake.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 31 2005, 09:11 AM
Thanks man!
I will say that with engine kits- This is a rare situation.
I have sold about 250 engine kits and this is the 5th occasion where someone has had to tear back into the engine.
This is why I dyno the piss out of everything that leaves my doors as a completed engine. If it don't break here- its not gonna break when it gets to its final destination.
I break things all the time, its part of this screwed up life that I live where everything is about trial.... If I had a dollar for every thing I have broken, I could retire!
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 31 2005, 10:26 AM
Just saw this thread...been away a bit.
I still have not gone through this whole thread, but I'm wondering if you have a one or more injectors open all the time.
Might be the injector, maybe MS or the wiring.
I've had a similar failure on an engine that the Weber chokes were fuched-up and washing the cylinders down.
(IDF's do have the circuit for the fuel enrichmet part of a choke system.)
I've always torn down, rebuilt, modified and/or inspected all carbs since that time, when I build the engine.
Posted by: banderson Jan 31 2005, 01:33 PM
This is very similar to my experience. I was a while back so I forget the details, but I think we determined that the oil was contaminated, or maybe running rich and the cylinders became scored after several hundred miles. CB supplied there IDF carbs with .035 jets drilled out to .050? so I thought I had the right size but they were way too rich! It took several attempts to get it running strong, which it did for several years. Now it sits with a flat cam/lifter and a stuck bearing. Maybe next winter I will get back into it.
“Old things are for people with money”
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 31 2005, 02:02 PM
CB sets up the carbs for California customers.... At sea level.
The jets should stay 135s for us regular guys..
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