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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Thoughts on Installing Steel Flares
Posted by: jim912928 Jan 31 2005, 04:45 PM
Hi all...I was chatting with my body shop guy and mentioned to him I may be interested in adding factory style steel flares in the future. We got talking about the advantages/disadvantages of butt welding versus cutting with the crimp and welding it in that way. His suggestion was not to weld at all...epoxy them in. His contention is there is no metal warping and today's epoxies are so strong that in a collision the welds will break before the epoxy seam would.
His thoughts were something in the order of:
1. scribe the outline of the new flare on the existing fender
2. cut along the scribe with one of those cutting/crimp a channel tools
3. epoxy the flares into the crimped channel (lays in flat)
4. finish the seam and paint
He said he's actually seen wrecks where epoxied panels held and welded ones didn't.
Thoughts from the group?
Jim
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2005, 04:48 PM
I can go with that.
I use 4 different epoxies in tool making, epoxies have changed... you can almost hone an edge to cut with them, and the shear strength some of them have is unbelieveable.
There is a bonding tape that is used also, will not let go.
M
Posted by: vortrex Jan 31 2005, 04:58 PM
my uncle is a bodyman/fabricator and he was telling me the same thing about epoxies a few years ago when I was thinking about patching some rust areas I had cut out. he said the epoxies are extremely strong.
Posted by: bondo Jan 31 2005, 04:59 PM
Hmm think I can dip my 914 in epoxy? 
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2005, 05:01 PM
Yes you can.
There are places up around the Motor City where they strip your ride down to bare metal, and treat it with a kind of 'electroplated' epoxy goo.
It looks like blocked out primer when it's done, and they say it's good for the rest of YOUR life..
M
Posted by: sanman Jan 31 2005, 05:06 PM
I would weld them
Posted by: scotty b Jan 31 2005, 05:17 PM
The epoxy works great when used properly. They use a special gun much like a caulk gun that mixes the two parts as it exits the tip. You run into problems keeping the panels aligned tightly while it dries.Panels have to have even pressure all the way down the seam which requires either ALOT of c-clamps or drilling holes and attaching with screws every few inches. Long c-clamps required to do flares get expensive for approximatly 10-15,and drilling holes then requires they be filled after the epoxy has cured. As far as the strength of the epoxy....the rep came to a body shop I worked at,spot welded two panels together, and attached two more with the epoxy.Then put both panels on the frame machine and pulled. Spot welds ripped out.......the epoxy panels tore but not where the epoxy was bonded!! It is STRONG stuff 
My opinion is to weld them given the hassle of the epoxy in that situation.
Posted by: DuckRyder Jan 31 2005, 05:26 PM
The epoxy will work. If your body man is comfortable with it, by all means consider it.
It is actually called panel adhesive. "Fusor" is a popular brand. Many new cars use it in the roof and other structural panels. Manufacturers have various (and changing) opinions on using it in non original structural areas...
Flares should be no problem. 
Posted by: seanery Jan 31 2005, 05:42 PM
I think bradholio is a proponent of bonding them.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 31 2005, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (jim912928 @ Jan 31 2005, 02:45 PM) |
| His contention is there is no metal warping and today's epoxies are so strong that in a collision the welds will break before the epoxy seam would. |
your body shop guy knows his shit!
he's right ...
Andy
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 31 2005, 05:56 PM
I guess I'm old school. I'm a fan of butt welding flairs. Any time you've got a lap joint, you have the chance of moisture getting between the two layers (three actually three if you are "gluing" steel-epoxy-steel) and causing corrosion. You'll always have some Porschephile coming up, sticking their hand under the fender and seeing if the flairs were "correctly" installed. Does that mean butt welding is the absolute correct way, I don't know, but I wouldn't do it any other way.
I'm sure the new epoxies are much better than a few years ago though.
All the body men I've talked with want to flange and lap flairs. I've always wondered though how much of that is motivated by the way they've always done it. Most shops don't want to butt weld flairs. Speed is also an issue for body men, and epoxy is fast.
Ultimately it's your decision. Ask 10 guys and you'll probably get 5 who say weld, and 5 who say epoxy is the way to go.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 31 2005, 06:21 PM
How did Porsche install the flares? I thought they were butt welded...
I have used some expoxies that had a shear strength of 20,000lbs. Amazing stuff and don't get it on your hands! Drys in 5 minutes too. I don't like the idea of lapping the metal as I fear it will rust between the layers. If you get near water it will find its way!
Geoff
Posted by: ppickerell Jan 31 2005, 06:22 PM
I have seen an Elise stripped to the frame recently and most of the joints on the car are epoxy. More reliabe than welds.
Posted by: scotty b Jan 31 2005, 06:49 PM
Rusting with the epoxy is not an issue if applied correctly. When the epoxy comes out of the tube it is a bead, and if kept even the bead spreads out when the panels are clamped. There is no air pocket so the metel will not sweat as a lap joint would if welded.The trick to the epoxy is getting it placed correctly and keeping it there until it hardens.
Posted by: Evill Ed Jan 31 2005, 07:31 PM
One problem I have experienced over the years with expoxy is caled "ghosting". Eventually, the seam of the 2 panels will begin to show throught the paint. This is more noticable with darker colors.
3M and Duramix have had tech bulletins in the past recommending that you use these products where the seams are hidden or covered with trim.
The seams are very strong and do not come apart, structurally I have no issue with these products, but I always worry about the long term cosmetics.
The only epoxy systems I trust and recommend right now are the Lord Fusor line.
Welding eliminates this worry, and butt welds are the way to go.
Ed
Posted by: scotty b Jan 31 2005, 07:35 PM
Somthing else that worries me is if the car is in an accident in the future and that panel has to be replaced......... 
I did a whole rear 1/4 panel on a 914 a few years back with Duramix and that was my first thought,you'll NEVER get those panels apart!!
Posted by: Evill Ed Jan 31 2005, 07:46 PM
| QUOTE (scotty b @ Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM) |
| Somthing else that worries me is if the car is in an accident in the future and that panel has to be replaced......... I did a whole rear 1/4 panel on a 914 a few years back with Duramix and that was my first thought,you'll NEVER get those panels apart!! |
Actually, you can get them apart pretty easily. The epoxy has great shear strength. But if you peel the seam, like rolling back the lid on a sardine tin, they peel right apart. An air chisel with a wide, thin blade between the seam will also pop it apart easily. And then there is heat, a torch works like a charm.
Ed
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2005, 07:55 PM
zactly!
I like the idea, and I trust the seam would be mosture free, if you watched your technique.
This would be a joint that I would want very tight, but not very_very_very tight, I think I would take as much time bonding, as welding... and I have 0 useful welding experience.
If you DA'd the seams a lil, and filled with skim coats of epoxy, inside, and out, you could make it nearly undetectable from a weld.... and welds have that way of rusting..
M
Posted by: jim912928 Jan 31 2005, 08:00 PM
This is a great discussion! My body guy welded my 911 turbo flares on my SC and did a great job. But the more I think about possibly flaring the 914 the more I like his idea of epoxy. This shop is a corvette restoration shop and they work alot more with the chemical stuff versus the welding stuff. So this wouldn't be a new thing for them.
Posted by: scotty b Jan 31 2005, 08:00 PM
| QUOTE (Evill Ed @ Jan 31 2005, 05:46 PM) |
| Actually, you can get them apart pretty easily. The epoxy has great shear strength. But if you peel the seam, like rolling back the lid on a sardine tin, they peel right apart. An air chisel with a wide, thin blade between the seam will also pop it apart easily. And then there is heat, a torch works like a charm. Ed |
Thats nice to know, maybe I will keep the gun after all. I was going to get rid of it because I didn't like the thought of a "permanent" panel. 
Posted by: BigD9146gt Jan 31 2005, 08:09 PM
My question is why you spent the money on steel to glue the things on? If this was fiberglass then sure... but thats your only choice. Ed hit the nail right on the head. Newer cars are epoxied... but keep in mind the main chassis is still welded. The outer panels do very little in the way of protection. Its like carbonfiber/kevlar. The strenght in chassis made of those components also have alot to do with the aluminum honey comb plates that give the chassis compression strenght. Door skins are epoxied on too, but still seamed-over around the corners to give them strenght to the door shell.
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 31 2005, 08:30 PM
As much as these car flex, I wouldn't even consider going the epoxy route if the car didn't have some good chassis stiffening, and I mean more than the GT plates.
Posted by: SpecialK Jan 31 2005, 08:32 PM
Yep, epoxy is some tough stuff!
I was going to throw some "bonding tips/tricks" out there, but you guys pretty well got it. Only suggestion I can think of is using "scrim cloth" at the epoxy joint. It's a very lightweight fishnet stocking looking material that insures the correct amount of epoxy remains in the joint under clamping pressure.
Ospho, or Oxysol the area prior to bonding may help prevent any future corrosion problems.
And heat is the best way I've found for making a metal-to-metal joint throw in the towel (as suggested by several members), but if you're trying to undo a composite-to-metal bond (FG flares, etc..), be careful not to overheat the composite or it'll crystallize the matrix [insert Keanu Reeves smiley], and turn your composite part into compost.
I could give you the Mil-spec number, and process specification for bonding procedures..........but then I'd hafta kill ya!! 
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 31 2005, 08:34 PM
Oh geez, I see Ed V. (a great body man with lots 'o' experience) has thrown the whole thread off, by ACTUALLY KNOWING WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT 
Posted by: DuckRyder Jan 31 2005, 08:55 PM
| QUOTE (BigD9146gt @ Jan 31 2005, 10:09 PM) |
| ... but keep in mind the main chassis is still welded. The outer panels do very little in the way of protection. |
Cut the roof and or quarter panel off a "newer" car and run a crash/rollover test.
In fact, just cut the windshield out and run a rollover test.
Get back to me and tell me if you still believe that.
Posted by: SpecialK Jan 31 2005, 10:29 PM
| QUOTE (DuckRyder @ Jan 31 2005, 06:55 PM) | ||
Cut the roof and or quarter panel off a "newer" car and run a crash/rollover test. In fact, just cut the windshield out and run a rollover test. Get back to me and tell me if you still believe that. |
I must have missed something here...
Posted by: ppickerell Jan 31 2005, 10:46 PM
Uh, Elise chassis are bonded, not welded.
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2005, 11:07 PM
Adhesive starvation at the joint would be catastrophic.
There are plenty of adhesives that have the shear strength, but flex enough to make balloons out of~!
I am glad this came up, an Kevin answered a question that I have always wondered, but never never asked, about the mesh for control of joint thickness.
M
Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 1 2005, 12:42 AM
Controling the joint for the adhesive on a steel flare would be hit and miss. If your going to bond something to the car just use glas and save the cost of steel. I've used the adhesives on about a hundred door skins and other parts. I wouldn't even consider it on the continous curve of a flare. The body work would be extensive to blend the joint even using a panel crimper to step things in. If your shop isn't skilled enough to install the flares properly find another shop. Who would want the possibility of an open or weak joint on the back side of a panel and the gross over lap that would be required to use this method. Bad science I say. There is no short cut to the best results.
Posted by: SpecialK Feb 1 2005, 02:23 AM
| QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 31 2005, 10:42 PM) |
| Controling the joint for the adhesive on a steel flare would be hit and miss. If your going to bond something to the car just use glas and save the cost of steel. I've used the adhesives on about a hundred door skins and other parts. I wouldn't even consider it on the continous curve of a flare. The body work would be extensive to blend the joint even using a panel crimper to step things in. If your shop isn't skilled enough to install the flares properly find another shop. Who would want the possibility of an open or weak joint on the back side of a panel and the gross over lap that would be required to use this method. Bad science I say. There is no short cut to the best results. |
I can see your point of view on this Rick (metal-to-metal=weld it), but bonding with the correct epoxy and procedure nets one bad ass connection between metal parts (do it damn near every friggin' day....unfortunately
), I'd put it up against welding any day in a tension/fatigue test.If the autobody guy knew WTF he was doing (metal prep, butter up both pieces, scrim cloth, etc..), and had the correct flanger (depth equal to the thickness of the flare metal), the "squeeze out" of the epoxy could actually be used to fare in the joggle in the from the flanger, the bondo required would be minimal.
We use "cleco's" at work during drill-outs to hold skins in place, or during bonding procedures (cleco's sprayed with mold release.......don't forget to spray the cleco's
, ask me how I know 
), they exert approx. 20lbs. of pressure each, and spaced every two inches or so would be more than sufficient and even pressure to insure a warp-free installation for a metal flare.If I was to ever install any kind of flares on one of my cars, I'd bond them on.......and you'd know why if you saw how good of a welder I am!
clecos and pliers.......
Attached image(s)
Posted by: redshift Feb 1 2005, 02:35 AM
| QUOTE (Special_K @ Feb 1 2005, 04:23 AM) |
| the "squeeze out" of the epoxy could actually be used to fare in the joggle in the from the flanger, the bondo required would be minimal. |
I work with glue as a primary tool... hehe... people break a buncha git-tars..
I am with you about using the squeeze-out for filling, I use files to bring dried glue to finish level, for invisible repairs to cracks all the time.
I just used a 5 minute epoxy I found at FLAPS to repair one of the guitars I gave to kids at Christmas. The break has a constant 230lbs of pressure *pulling* at it, it's straight across the neck, right at the end of the fingerboard. It's undetectable, as far as lines go, and a kid has been wailing on it for a month..
Ok, I am bored, can't sleep, and I think we know where I stand.. and no, I am not an Epoxificationist, nor do I lobby Congress for Big Epoxy.
M
Posted by: SpecialK Feb 1 2005, 02:48 AM
| QUOTE (redshift @ Feb 1 2005, 12:35 AM) | ||
I work with glue as a primary tool... hehe... people break a buncha git-tars.. I am with you about using the squeeze-out for filling, I use files to bring dried glue to finish level, for invisible repairs to cracks all the time. I just used a 5 minute epoxy I found at FLAPS to repair one of the guitars I gave to kids at Christmas. The break has a constant 230lbs of pressure *pulling* at it, it's straight across the neck, right at the end of the fingerboard. It's undetectable, as far as lines go, and a kid has been wailing on it for a month.. Ok, I am bored, can't sleep, and I think we know where I stand.. and no, I am not an Epoxificationist, nor do I lobby Congress for Big Epoxy. M |
That's right, I forgot, you're a "omni-adhesive frisbeetarian" (don't believe in one glue holding the universe together)!
......... well, it sounded funny when my dog said it........now where I leave my doob at 
Same problem bro....just got off work, drank waaaay too much coffee, and don't have enough Becks in the fridge to counteract the caffeine.
Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 1 2005, 08:06 AM
| QUOTE (Special_K @ Feb 1 2005, 12:29 AM) | ||||
I must have missed something here... |
BigD914 said:
| QUOTE |
| Newer cars are epoxied... but keep in mind the main chassis is still welded. The outer panels do very little in the way of protection. |
That is just not true; nearly every panel on a newer car is a structural part. The only modern car that comes to mind for which it is true is some Saturn’s. Even the windshield is a structural part in most cases.
Nevertheless, that is getting off subject.
The opinions in this thread mirror the opinions in the Industry. Adhesives are gaining acceptance fast, particularly in the actual shops where they are found to be faster and just as strong and durable. Car manufacturers are reluctant to embrace them for welded panels, because no one that I am aware of has done any crash testing on bonded vs. welded panels, and exterior body panels without question contribute (significantly) to overall body shell stiffness.
None of that really matters for the flares. This is one of those cases where there is more than one "right" way. It is my personal feeling that there would be less bodywork in the majority of cases using the adhesive. If you really want them butt welded, find someone who has done quite a few of them. It is rarely a good plan to force a shop to do something in a manner contrary to what they believe is the best way.
Posted by: BigD9146gt Feb 1 2005, 12:20 PM
Robert,
Take it easy man! I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm working off my knowledge, and keep in mind that i was a autobody guy for a few years in a top-rated shop. (Granted i haven't been doing it for 20 years, but i've gone through college autobody classes, and during those two years, spent alot of extra time learning).
The purpose of my statement was that you CANNOT compare an Elise, Porsche Carrera GT, Ferrari composite chassis, etc etc with a common mass produced steel/aluminum cars with some adhesive panels.
Yes, the epoxies are becomming very good for bonding cars to gether, and will find its way into the industry more and more as time goes on. But also consider which cars they are on now... like you said, Satern. But check out the rollover stats on Saterns....
Yes, the front windsheild has structural strenght on all newer cars. What about the 914? 911? 356? VW bug? They are all rubber seals with the exception of the 914... which is glue that is not an epoxy. You can give me examples all day long, and so can I.
With regards to the roof... are we comparing a car with no roof to a car with an adhesive attached roof? 
If so, then sure, attaching the roof solidly makes sence (like the factory 9146GT cars. But doing a roll over with just regards to the roof isn't enough, taking into consideration how the rest of the roof is attached (ie A pillars, B pillars, material, thickness) has alot more to do with the overall equation. I guess i need more information from you before i can answer your question . Or was it just a retorical point with no purpose of having a meaningful conversation?
Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 1 2005, 12:42 PM
I'm cool,
Sweeping generalites in either direction won't do anyone any good.
As for the roof, I'm saying that the metal roof panel gives the unit body stiffness in newer cars.
Perhaps we misunderstood each others statements, I wasn't attacking you I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I'm just saying that newer cars DO derive structural stiffness from the exterior sheet metal.
Posted by: rhaas Feb 1 2005, 01:03 PM
any adhesive supplier that supplies to industry will be able to get you spacer beads at the proper thickness. this allows you to clamp the parts as tight as you can without having adhesive starvation. the adhesive thickness is determined by the size of the beads. these spacer beads are routinely used in composite shops. they ensure that there is a proper adhesive thickness.
Posted by: SpecialK Feb 1 2005, 01:41 PM
| QUOTE (DuckRyder @ Feb 1 2005, 10:42 AM) |
| As for the roof, I'm saying that the metal roof panel gives the unit body stiffness in newer cars. Perhaps we misunderstood each others statements, I wasn't attacking you I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I'm just saying that newer cars DO derive structural stiffness from the exterior sheet metal. |
Absolutely....that's probably why the targa tops squeek when you drive down the road (chassis flex), and why the 916 had a non-removable steel top.
And I totally agree with the statement that the exterior sheetmetal (excluding the trunk lids and doors) add to the overall stiffeness of the vehicle in a unibody design, they all carry some load, but it would take a good model and some serious software to know to what extent.
Exact same reason I was questioning the conventional wisedom of venting V8 front mounted radiators via large holes cut into the inner fender wells, and subsequently decided if I ever did a water-cooled conversion in the future, it's getting vented out through the trunk lid.
[The views expressed by Special_K do not necessarily represent the views of the 914world.com, or any of it's affiliates. Any logical representations of structural integraties are purely coincidental..........or wild-ass guesses]
Posted by: bperry Feb 1 2005, 02:26 PM
So a question from the audience.....
With all these amazing epoxies, why wouldn't more people
glue in their replacement battery trays and support?
(Assuming surrounding metal is good, which may not be the case)
Sure sounds tempting.
--- bill
Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 1 2005, 02:29 PM
bperry
I just haven't gotten around to it yet...
Posted by: BigD9146gt Feb 1 2005, 02:37 PM
bperry, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that, its a good idea. I think most weld it in because you first have to clean the metal prior to welding (as you would to epoxy it in) and because the car was orignially welded, folks like to stay with what worked then, works now. Either way, its the finish work to keep rust out thats the most important factor.
Duck, a bit off topic, but what year is/was your 323??? I have an '82 thats my next project!. I've gathered most the parts for the 2.7L 325 motronic motor... but will keep the stock 2.3 (the previous owner completely dissasembled the metering head 
, its alittle leaky to say the least). And it came wtih some 16" Alpina rims for it too!
Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM
My 323i was an 80, although most states consider it an 81. It was built 10/80 and carried a VIN that identifies it as an 81 the US 10th digit system. The HTK identifies it as an 80. The European system of titling and registering apparently has some quirks, it was even suggested that they are titled as year sold over there. Any way, I strongly advise ordering parts by VIN or build date vs. titled year.
If you have not already joined the E-21 digest Yahoo Group I highly recommend it, it is like 914Club for E21's 
Does not have some of the nice features as a BBS (Since it’s primarily an E-Mail list) but the knowledge is just as great.
| QUOTE |
| The BMW_E21_Digest at Yahoo Groups, est 1996. List instructions: Post message: BMW_E21_Digest@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: BMW_E21_Digest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: BMW_E21_Digest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: BMW_E21_Digest-owner@yahoogroups.com BMW E21 Digest FAQ: http://www.e21bmw.net/faq URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BMW_E21_Digest |
Some of the guys use taildragger Fuel distributors on the E21 323i. Jack over there posted the specifics not long ago. I believe I would go with the 325i Motronic on my next one though. I forget the particulars but there is one control unit that is V1.3 vs. 1.1 and has some adaptive qualities. It is a good one to look for.
HTH
Posted by: John Kelly Feb 1 2005, 03:55 PM
My concern would be the same as Ed's... the panel cosmetics down the road. Strength of epoxied or welded panels should not be the issue. There is no need for anything stronger than a good weld. With any stiffener (improper weld or an epoxy joint) there may be issues of crumple zone effectiveness...making a panel that is supposed to absorb energy in a crash tranfer energy instead....or a area that bends and fails (rips) because it is too stiff.
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
Posted by: Series9 Feb 1 2005, 04:36 PM
I thinks you guys have all been .
Just get out the welder and 
.
Jeeze...
Posted by: SpecialK Feb 1 2005, 05:03 PM
| QUOTE (914RS @ Feb 1 2005, 02:36 PM) |
| I thinks you guys have all been . Just get out the welder and .Jeeze... |
I knew you were going to say that!
Posted by: jwalters Feb 1 2005, 05:46 PM
I would say that I have to agree with both methods---
Case in point is the fact of crash repair---
A welded joint would be very easy to cut and replace w/o losing much material--
With the bond, most of these epoxies do not adhere to old glue in the same manner as glue on virgin steel, but not allot of time to remove the glue with a grinder--it is just getting the pieces apart to do so.
With the proper stuctural epoxy and application method there is NO worry about fatigue strength--that car will never ever flex enough to cause the seams to disintegrate--
Being an aerospace worker--I can attest to this fact. One small example : The Grumman line of light single and light twin aircraft are almost wholly glued together--and these are 30+ yrs old with nil adverse affects--Flight environment aside--it is the landings that these things give credo to--the average training landing has an acceleration of 2.3 G's---plus factor in the number of cycles this has happened, say, close to 500,000+ fleet wide!!!
I myself am using fiberglass flares--being as I live in south Florida, and the odds of someone hitting me with thier car is exponentially high--I decided to not bond the flares on, and instead are screwing them on with a coat of filler over the seam for smoothness---there is just to much chance that sometime in the next 2 yrs I will have to pull one or more off for body repair-- 
Both methods are very good--just look down the road and take the path that will give you your most bang for the buck---
Posted by: redshift Feb 1 2005, 05:51 PM
| QUOTE (bperry @ Feb 1 2005, 04:26 PM) |
| So a question from the audience..... With all these amazing epoxies, why wouldn't more people glue in their replacement battery trays and support? (Assuming surrounding metal is good, which may not be the case) Sure sounds tempting. --- bill |
I have SEEN IT DONE!
There are some pics from about... 2 years ago over on Pelican.
M
Posted by: redshift Feb 1 2005, 05:53 PM
If you are in a wreck that you would hope crumple zones would save you... in a 914..
Nice knowing you..
M
Posted by: jwalters Feb 1 2005, 06:15 PM
A small ass 914 with or with out crumple zones is still a dicey affair----
The problem with these glues is the initial cost and the ability to properly glue the joint--there is NO margin of error to achieve advertised strength--
The hysol line of products I use are mixed by weight--if you are off by more than .2 GRAMS of catalyst or matrix the glue is worthless..
Ohh it will still bond mind you--but nowhere the strength as advertised--
These hysol ones have an exceptionally high peel strength--which would mean total destruction of a prolly fixable flare ,to remove it to fix any sheetmetal that is bent.....that is....
Also, proven by our big brother overseers--in a crash, the glue joint contributes to a crumple zone--it is bonded into one part, which gives more energy release before entering the passenger compartment--whereas a tacked joint, such is all of our sheetmetal, will pull apart and allow that crash energy to continue into the pass compartment, and in some cases it actually magnifies it--
NASA, with all its structural knowledge,ordered the space shuttle to be designed as a mostly glued together spacecraft--it is superior for its intended description, which is temp extremes and crash worthiness for survivability.
But his is just a teener--I don't think he will be doing space travel soon
By the way, you all seen the new Chrysler plastic car??? The entire car is made of thermoplastic and is glued together--tests have shown that the crash survivability is vastly superior to metal.....
Wierd how all this stuff was proven out over 40 yrs ago and is just now getting into mainstream auto design....
Posted by: Sparky Feb 1 2005, 07:25 PM
Go with what the shop your using feels comfortable and has expertise with. If your doing it yourself, well your more apt to have the correct or sufficient weding equiptment at home then bonding equiptment. 
My best,
Mike D.
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