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Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 12:29 AM

Some years ago I read that brad Roberts was building these hubs that would allow us 4 lug guys the chance to use vented rotors. Apparently for some reason they can't be found anywhere. I have invested $$$ in aftermarket wheels and want to stay with 4 lugs.

Does anyone here have any information about these hubs? Maybe drawings or something, so I can have a set machined.


Thanks
Zach

Posted by: stugray Nov 16 2014, 01:16 AM

I was standing in my garage this evening looking at a stock front rotor next to a modern toyota vented disk.

I was wondering if there would be any way to reproduce the hub & hat (bell) in Aluminum, then bolt that to a wilwood vented disk "blank" then make all that fit in with a stock caliper.

Posted by: a few loose screws Nov 16 2014, 06:10 AM

I remember coming across a thread about those hubs somewhere???? cant remember where though. But the poster said he had run them successfully, I recall that much. If someone could dig up a set and reproduce them, I'd be in for a set. If some enterprising individual could set them up with wilwood rotors and dynalite calipers that would bolt right on......well, I'd be all over that like stink on a monkey! The world needs a nice bolt on set up for the 914-4 strut. The 911 strut and brake conversion is too rich for me.

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 16 2014, 07:44 AM

The machining was expensive and there just wasn't a big enough profit margin/demand to keep them going...plus Brad became a tad of a fuch-up.
He is gone from the 914 scene...done.

Used if you can find it or step up to the plate and become the vendor.
I bet Mike Mueller still has the files and would likely give them away.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 08:26 AM

I would do it. There are plenty of machine shops here in Houston. If we could get enought people interested, I'm sure we could get something going. I just need those drawings.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 08:32 AM

I actually have the perfect guy in mind that could build these.

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 16 2014, 08:39 AM

Try to get a hold of Mike Mueller. He hasn't been around in a while, he's out of the 914 scene, but if he still has the files I'm sure he'll give them to you. He popped in to say hi last spring.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=87

Posted by: barefoot Nov 16 2014, 10:00 AM

there are sites that sell wheel spacer adapters from 4 bolt to various 5 bolt patterns, might be some vented rotors that will fit ?? Good hunting

Posted by: Michael N Nov 16 2014, 10:13 AM

I did the 4 lug adapters on Kathy's LE back in 2009. Every time she drives the car she comments how she loves her brakes. 4 lug billet hubs with Eric's rebuilt restored Brembo aluminum calipers. This was money well spent.

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 16 2014, 01:06 PM

Posted by: Starlack Nov 16 2014, 01:13 PM

Hello and good evening.
Currently, I am going to rebuild my brake system vented to the inside
Matching brake discs is available here in Germany at company Kerscher ...

you looking here

http://www.kerscher-tuning.de/kaefer/detail.php?id=92


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mueller Nov 16 2014, 01:19 PM

I might still have the drawings around, I'll try and look in the next few days.

I have not spoken to Brad in about 3 years or so, no idea if cares if the drawing is released or not...all my current parts (2) I am making for Volvos I make the drawings available to the general public so I see no harm with these.

Wouldn't take too much work to get them drawn up again, I remember most of the details.

The 1st run was 7075, I really think 6061 would work just fine and save a good chunk of money on the raw billets.

I thought I heard something about Mark Hayes making them? markasap on here....

I've been out of the 914 stuff for ages, trying to get back into the game slowly....

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 01:34 PM

Oh man Mike, I hope you still have the drawings. That would be awesome! I really want/need a set of these beauties on my car.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 01:40 PM

This looks interesting also..... I just wish I could read the website. Im surprised I have not seen these before.

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 16 2014, 01:47 PM

Just click on the English flag on the left side of the navigation. It'll switch the site language to English.

Posted by: a few loose screws Nov 16 2014, 01:48 PM

Does any one recall what rotor bolted to these hubs? I wonder how much time and effort would go in to reverse engineering a front rotor in order to make a hub? Obviously thats what was done in the first place. I gave up on the 911 front strut conversion. I was all set to go with BMW 320 calipers and stock rotors, and then I find out about this possibility.... damn it! You guys are killing me.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 16 2014, 02:00 PM

911 rotor ... something easily available from Pelican or ?

I want to say early 70's for sure, possibly the 20mm thick rotors from the 80 year models as well.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 02:03 PM

Dah.... I got, lol. But now I know why I have never seen them. They cost big money. Nearly $1200 for the fronts only. Not to mention I'm sure the shipping would be insane.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 16 2014, 02:25 PM

$188 US dollars each.... so less than $400 for the pair. (plus shipping of course)

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 02:35 PM

Wow, I got lost on that website, I see now where I went wrong. Well hell, at that price I may go that direction. That's not bad. But I do still like the idea of replacing just the rotor instead of the whole assembly.

Posted by: veltror Nov 16 2014, 02:42 PM

I have these on my Beetle cabrio




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Posted by: Starlack Nov 16 2014, 02:43 PM

Hello I can speak a little English but good German.
Then I try the times translate to English.

These brake discs are designed for the VW old Beetle. Both have the same wheel bearing.
So the discs are also attached to the 914th
The price is 189 euros + shipping.

Posted by: Starlack Nov 16 2014, 02:49 PM

Is that would be expensive. but I only have the brake discs.
The calipers are from the 911 F Model ..

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 16 2014, 03:09 PM

Since these things are made for old vw bugs, I would think that there has to be a source for these in the us.... Maybe?

Posted by: Starlack Nov 16 2014, 03:27 PM

I do not think the sale in US parts the company Kerscher.
But there are sell these discs other providers. In Germany, for example,

http://www.csp-shop.com/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=110822810472&rub1=Wheels%20%2F%20Brakes&rub2=Brake%20Rotors%2CStandard%20Front&artnr=13224a&pn=0&sort=0&all=

The company Kerscher in Germany is well known in the 914 scene and .. Ofcourse I beetles

Posted by: shoguneagle Nov 16 2014, 06:50 PM

THREAD HIGHJACK!!! Sorry, but I saw that Mr. Mueller made a couple of threads here.

Mr. Mueller does know what he is talking about and NEEDS to be involved back in the 914/911 world whenever he can provide time away from the wife and twins. His knowledge and ability to build items is first class. We have missed a great asset.

I am glad he has commented and he still has his interest. Glad he is well along with the family. Mr. Mueller provided me with information and assistance without question during the early years, and I have never forgotten it.

Hello, Mike. Best of everything to you and the family.

NOW, back to "normal broadcast"!

Sorry, but I just had to say hello and make comments.

Steve Hurt

Posted by: r_towle Nov 16 2014, 07:14 PM

That is a fantastic price.
What is the offset? Is it the same as a beetle?
Will this make your wheels rub the fender?

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 16 2014, 07:26 PM

I have a friend up here in Canuckistan named Lanner that can makes adapters for almost anything. If he had the drawing I bet he could pop these out pretty damn fast.

He does it mostly for the beetle crowd, a lot of Porsche 5-bolt conversions so he already has the tooling for the hubs

http://vdubengineering.com/brake-parts-kits/

Posted by: stugray Nov 16 2014, 08:20 PM

So would those bolt to a wilwood style rotor and then fit on our spindles?

exact dimensions are probably different, but is that the concept?

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 16 2014, 08:29 PM

That kit is for a 944 NA caliper and hub on VW beetle. I'm guessing 944 rotor as well.

Posted by: oldschool Nov 16 2014, 08:54 PM

Yup pretty done I just saw a 914 in his shop this week,

Posted by: white1975 Nov 17 2014, 12:55 AM

I have a friend that has a machine shop that is more for play and spare after hours work that should cut down on cost plus I need a set too 5 lug setup
which means he will have me out there helping just need a copy of them to go at it

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 17 2014, 09:26 AM

IIRC that's who BR was working with.
The last set Mark had on the shelf was sold directly to me for one of my customers.

Posted by: stugray Nov 17 2014, 10:31 AM

If the design was done smart, you could make these hubs, and then drill them for 4 or 5 lug wheels.
The "core" would be indentical, then the holes drilled for whichever wheel you wanted.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 17 2014, 10:35 AM

Mike,
I have had these on my car for 5-6 years now. (I have the 5 lug variety) they have only one problem that I can see. The lugs loosen up. Perhaps instead of tapping them an insert?

Posted by: Mueller Nov 17 2014, 12:03 PM

From what I remember, I only dealt with the 4 lug version and those used Timecerts, no reason the 5 lug version couldn't have used those or have pressed in studs.

I also want to say the 4 lug versions had an optional screw in stud, supplied by BBS Racing.

Posted by: 69telecaster Nov 17 2014, 12:28 PM

I have a machine shop, and we're ALWAYS looking for stuff to do. I reverse-engineered a set of hubs for my old Comet, to convert the square-flange 4-lug to round flange 5-lug...but the flange could be drilled for anything. Mine were made of steel with the separate flange welded on and finish machined. I saw photos of Brad Roberts' AL hubs on the other 914 forum some years ago. Drawings would make it real easy to estimate costs, and I'd love to have a look.

cm

Posted by: crash914 Nov 17 2014, 02:10 PM

When all is said and done, I need this with matching calipers also...kit..at around $800 I am all in...

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 17 2014, 02:10 PM

I think a lot of us would love to see the drawings, but if it comes to be that we have to design a new hub, my vote is for a hub that will use a bolt on wilwood piece.

Posted by: white1975 Nov 17 2014, 02:13 PM

I would have them made with pressed in studs for the five lug

Posted by: Mueller Nov 17 2014, 02:32 PM

I'll try and look for them tonight...

I also want to say there was an issue with them being used on the very early struts and ideally one would want 71 and newer struts? Anyone remember that or know if there is a difference in front strut assemblies?

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 17 2014, 05:37 PM

I hope you find them. This could be awesome! I called my machinist today, he is ready to go.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 17 2014, 06:17 PM

I wouldn't trust the drawings 100%....I know I had to do 1 or 2 redlines at the shop when I did a 1st article inspection, I remember being off about .100" for a bearing race. (rotor not centered in the caliper?) luckily I screwed up by have too much material in that direction.


I might have fixed them, I might not have.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 17 2014, 06:28 PM

thats cool, as long as the incorrect plans still leave enough metal to be fixed its all good.

Posted by: oldschool Nov 17 2014, 08:49 PM

talk with the guys from wilwood today at Jay leno's garage, I ask them if they make stuff for 914 NOPE

Posted by: 914Mike Nov 17 2014, 09:48 PM

Hey Mike, long time.

I remember waiting while mine was recut for the seal fit, something about too tight. Then I got the Rabbit seal from Bugformance, and had to glue it in... (I think there might be a different seal than I got that fits better.)

I seem to remember a bit of offset on the wheel mounting surface, like 5mm or so narrower than stock. (Checked PM's, I sent that info in 2005!)

If you need to measure anything, I can pull one off.

Posted by: Philip W. Nov 17 2014, 09:49 PM

I see that site also has 5 lug variety ! Vented . So would those work with stock calipers? I did the 5 lug conversion using the 4 lug drilled to 5 by Eric shea. So if I wanted to step up to have vented rotors these would work on my front with current set up?- I'm referring to the German ones


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Posted by: Mueller Nov 17 2014, 10:08 PM

Hey Mike...wow, yep long time for sure.

No luck on the drawing , at least no electronic copy....too many computers and hard drives ago...I know there is a hard copy floating around my house someplace since I remember seeing the 11*17 print sometime last year while cleaning my garage, I wouldn't think that I'd have thrown it away.

Posted by: 914Mike Nov 17 2014, 10:23 PM

It may be 11" X 17", but it's only a few mils thick. Could be anywhere...

Just edited my post above, after checking the PM's, It was actually 4-5 mm narrow, I had to add spacers to keep the stock tires from rubbing the inside.

I think the rim centering snout would need to grow also. Then you'd have to cut a slot to be able to fit the allen key into the wheel bearing lock bolt, etc.

Spacer is much easier...

Posted by: bdstone914 Nov 17 2014, 10:42 PM

Not with stock calpiers. 911 M calipers or Alfa calipers would work. Or a 1978 BMW 320 I caliper. Might need the pad machined. They used vented rotors for 1 year only.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 17 2014, 11:38 PM

Man I am rusty with this stuff these days....what rotors worked with the vented and non-vented Volvo 240 calipers?

Posted by: Starlack Nov 18 2014, 05:49 AM

Yes you can installed this brake vented discs on the 914er with 5Lug
Am I doing now. You see here. Kerscher Break disc 4 Lug with Brake Calipers from the 911 . The hole spacing by the Caliper is 76mm
On Thursday this Week build the parts in my 14er one then I know more.



All you need is the calipers from the 911 or BMW 320i

You understand me?

Posted by: Philip W. Nov 18 2014, 07:06 AM

Yes, but 76mm is = to 2.995 or 3 inches which is the bolt spacing for a 914, a 911 is 3.5" so this should work for stock those in your picture look like stock callipers for 914 from Eric Shea of PMB performance ini Sandy, Utah correct?
-thanks for sharing the link and giving some great information from Germany!! also share some pictures when you get a chance as you are completing your project!

Phil Wagner

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 18 2014, 07:07 AM

mostly yes ...

Posted by: Starlack Nov 18 2014, 07:31 AM

Ok the older calipers from the 911 also have a hole spacing of 76mm and therefore fit to the 914th
They are the same as the 914/6.

I will continue to report when I'm done with the conversion

usually is better than not at all .... I write as good as it gets

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 18 2014, 11:07 AM

I emailed Kerscher and here is what I got in responce...

Hello Mr. Zach,

thanks for your mail.

Up to now we did never check those discs on a 914/4.
We did use only for VW Beetle.
We did sell the discs last week to a customer here in Germany
who did plan to install them in a 914/4.
Problem is discs do not fit with original 914 calipper. Our calipper
we use for Beetle brake does not fit for 914.

I have asked my customer here in Germany to give me some Feedback.
As soon as I have more informations I come back to you.

regards
Emmi


Kerscher Tuning GmbH
Eggenfeldener Str. 46a
D-84326 Falkenberg
Tel.++ 49 (0) 8727 96 88 0
Fax ++ 49 (0) 8727 96 88 29

E-Mail: E.Kerscher@Kerscher-Tuning.de
Internet: www.Kerscher.de

German Tuning Group
E-Mail: info.gtg@kerscher.de
Internet: www.germantuning.de


Now as far as the info I have gotten from the web my understanding is that the ghia/beetle spindle is shorter than that of the 914/4. Supposedly the 914 uses the same spindle size of a 412 vw. So the jury is still out weather or not these work for our cars.

So hopefully we can get something going with the billet hub. Plus I like the idea of being able to replace just a rotor and not the entire assembly.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 18 2014, 11:29 AM

And the added benefit of that huge chunk of aluminum being a heat sink

If someone local had the parts to reverse engineer I'd gladly do this project again, but without having a 914 to use the stuff on I'm reluctant to spend any money for parts I don't have a use for (yet)


I might even have the material to do a prototype but I wouldn't do any production parts, that is a headache for someone else with more $$$ and time (a real shop, not a guy with CNC Bridgeport in his garage!)

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 18 2014, 12:58 PM

Mike,
Eventually, my car will be down at McMark's shop for the installation of the 915 transmission. They are building it right now. Once it is in the car, Mark is going to fabricate the cable shifter system.

You are welcome to reverse engineer from my 5 lug AL hubs. As I said, these were just drilled and tapped for studs and they loosen up unless the wheels are holding them in place. That is the only thing I would engineer out of them. I believe mine use 914-6 rotors and I know it uses Alpha Romeo GTV-6 Aluminum calipers... So I have a very significant unsprung weight reduction in the front.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 18 2014, 01:07 PM

Just thinking out loud here, but the stock hub is just a solid piece of metal right? why couldn't we cut the rotor section off and machine the back of the hub to accept 911 rotors? Is this possible, or am I completely out of wack here?

Posted by: Starlack Nov 18 2014, 02:44 PM

The axle hub from the 914er can not be too short because the brake discs are from beetles and 411/412 is the same. But I'll see it on Thursday ..

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 18 2014, 03:09 PM

I will be looking forward to see how these fit on your car. I have a question for you, what year is your 914?

Posted by: r_towle Nov 18 2014, 03:37 PM

its not solid...that would be crazy heavy.

rich

Posted by: 69telecaster Nov 18 2014, 04:35 PM

I would lean towards the use of some 'standard' aftermarket rotor and possibly caliper arrangement...less expensive, easy to find, and possibly lighter.

cm

Posted by: stugray Nov 18 2014, 05:05 PM

The "hub/spindle" is connected to the brake disk by the "bell" or bowl shaped portion.

My suggestion above was to cut off the disk (leaving some tabs) and bolt the wilwood rotor on.
The stock piece is not a good candidate because if you cut off the disk and leave tabs, there is very little material thickness left where the tabs would meet the "bell".

Plus what caliper you want to use would govern the required offset of the bolt-on rotor wrt the wheel mating surface.
I would prefer the 914 caliper with the spacers to accommodate the vented rotors (essentially a 914-6 caliper?)

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 18 2014, 06:10 PM

I with you on the rotor part. Rockauto is filled with cheap great calipers for cheap.

Some decent calipers include...

Cadillac cts-v 05-07
Acura TL and RL
Turbo rx7 88-91
Volvo v70r and s60r
Toyota trucks 79-84

These listed are all 4 piston calipers. The acura RL is interesting because it has a top bolt mount that I really like. Of course all these calipers used rotor of all different diameters and thickness. But that is why I think it would be cool to set a hub up for a wilwood rotor with like their 8 x 7 pattern. Then you could choose a caliper and rotor combo that works best for what you want/need.

Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 18 2014, 09:46 PM

Really interested in doing a 5 bolt from this configuration IF the rotors can be done for it.

Posted by: Starlack Nov 18 2014, 10:36 PM

good Morning

My car is built in 1970

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 18 2014, 10:57 PM

I was afraid you were going to say that. From what I can tell the early cars were different. Auto Atlanta sells two different hub assemblies for the 914/4. One for the 70 and 71 and then another for the 73 and up. I'm no guru, so I don't know what the exact difference is. But, it may very well be the case that the kerscher hubs/rotors will fit your car and not mine.

Posted by: Starlack Nov 19 2014, 01:41 AM

Yes there is a difference between the models to 72 and the later models
The later models have a centering on the brake disc. the elderly not.
unimportant for the installation of the disks Kerscher
Here in the German forum, we currently have the discusion whether the conversion works in both models

For the older models such as mine must be a distance of 5 mm plate for the brake calipers (Ventet Brake disc) In the later is supposed to be different.
I will inform about the conversion ..

Posted by: 69telecaster Nov 19 2014, 07:17 AM

I dig the Wilwood stuff...those 4-piston Dynalite calipers are very nice.
I wonder, though, if bolt patterns could be matched using a cut off 914 hub. I've got a couple old hubs from a '76 to look at. Naturally, there are other options we haven't thought of yet.
I have a feeling the aluminum hubs will be the most desirable.

Posted by: stugray Nov 19 2014, 01:21 PM

I just witnessed the difference first hand when I attempted to install "early" rotors on a "late" spindle assembly.

Everything seemed fine right up until you go to put the caliper on.
The offset of the disk centerline from the inner bearing seating surface is different and the caliper will not slide into position.

So it is likely possible to get a hub design that is common for both models, BUT requires a final step of customization.

With a common Aluminum hub design the final steps would be to:
1 - Bore down to the correct depths for both the inner & outer bearing race seating surfaces (early vs late spindle)
2 - Drill for 4 vs 5 lugs and press in studs from the back or install inserts

Posted by: 69telecaster Nov 19 2014, 01:50 PM

I think your early/late mounting difference is mostly in the caliper. For the hub, I think the only difference might be the wheel centering 'ring' on the late ones.

Posted by: hcdmueller Nov 20 2014, 12:36 AM

If the drawings can't be found, I have a set of these machined hubs sitting on my shelf. I took them off when I took my car to get inspected by the TUV and never put them back on. Someone could borrow one of them to get pertinent measurements.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 20 2014, 07:02 AM

If mike mueller is interested in using these to draw up plans to post up here, I will pay the shipping from you to mike and back.

Posted by: Starlack Nov 20 2014, 12:22 PM

Today I have installed the Kerscher front brake

So here's the summary of the installation

1. Kerscher wheels fit plug and play

2. Original wheel bearings installed. Beetles and 914 have the same wheel bearing.

3. The washer from 14er (the outside between the wheel bearing and clamping screw comes) from Bearing Kit beetle does not fit properly.
So the original disk used by the 14er. Same dimensions only the groove is shorter. The wheel bearing screw is just under 1mm further out but is fully supported on the thread.

4. Dust sheets must be reduced because the brake disc 5 mm is more inward. The brake disc schleifft so on dust sheet. Since I'm gonna still looking for alternatives.

5. Caliper (911 or 914/6) with 76mm hole spacing to fit
Approx 4-5mm spacer rings must be backed so that the saddle again running in the center of the disc between the brake caliper and receptacle.
These spacers are also important so that there is enough space between caliper and rim. Although not without grinding rings but this is very closely at the ATS.

6. The brake lines can be taken.

7. The original dust caps for the wheel bearing adjust.

The install is very Easy.





Washer must be installed. The Axle strud ist not too short..Look here

Posted by: bdstone914 Nov 20 2014, 12:35 PM

Nice write up.

911 dust shields might be adaptable. they have a different hole pattern but you may be able to redrill them.

Posted by: zach914v8 Nov 20 2014, 01:21 PM

Looks good. Sorry I had my doubts. If the billet hub get no traction, I'm going to order some.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 20 2014, 02:48 PM

I would not even think about pursuing the billet hubs.
They will certainly cost more and they wont be this easy.

rich

Posted by: 914GTSTI Jan 22 2015, 12:03 AM

Anybody try this in here in the states yet ?

Posted by: 69telecaster Jan 22 2015, 03:17 PM

I wonder what those things weigh. Seems like stock rotors are around 15 lbs.

Posted by: crawler Jan 22 2015, 04:56 PM

If you guys need a Machine Shop in Arizona,call Precision Research 480-926-2127.They do lots of work on WWII Aircraft,Race-cars, ect. It will not be cheep but you get what you pay for.