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Posted by: naro914 Nov 27 2014, 09:08 AM

EDIT - UPDATE: PLEASE GO TO POST #23 FOR JUNE 2015 UPDATE!!!

Hi all
Lately a handful of people have been PM'ing me asking about Papa Smurf and why I haven't posted much about what we've been doing with him. The real answer is...we haven't done ANYTHING in almost 2 years. So I thought I would post this up to explain what we've gone through to maybe help someone avoid the same issues we've had. Many of you have read the trials and tribulations we've been through with Huey...this is not quite as bad but frustrating all the same if not more...

So while you're trying to avoid all you're family obligations on this Thanksgiving morning (like I am), sit back and read this tale of woe...and give thanks to the fact that you do not have to deal with all this!!! I apologize for not having pictures of all the work that's been done. (I realized I didn't have any as I was typing. I may be able to get some later this weekend...sorry)

Keep in mind, Papa Smurf is a full on race car - not street legal at all

Back in 2011, we decided to upgrade our 2.2 liter/6. We came across a very strong and VERY fast 3.4 liter that we put in just in time for the Oct PCA race at CMP. Engine performed great, but I actually broke the suspension console on the drivers side! too much torque/power for the stock set up. So...we replaced the suspension mount points with the kit from Chris Foley and all was good.

Fast forward to Sept 2012. While at Roebling Road Raceway, Nadine heard a sound in the engine which upon examination turned out to be a spun rod bearing. The bearing was worn completely off, allowing the piston to hit a valve, break a rocker, and jam the rocker into the cam housing thus destroying the little oil supply tube in the process. So the engine got torn down, resurfaed the scored crank, replace the needed parts, and back in business. On advice from MANY race shops, we sent the crank to CCR which at the time was in California. Armondo from CCR is supposedly the "end all-be all" when it comes to Porsche cranks (more on that later). He did the work in about 4-5 weeks, good to go.

5 months later, again at Roebling, I was on lap 2 of my practice session for the PCA Club Race and all of a sudden "BANG". Uh oh.... got towed in. Back at the shop, this time, that same rod that spun last time had now broken. so...tear down, replace ALL the rods from Carillo to Pauter (long story there) send crank to Armondo - 4-5 weeks get crank back, rebuild with all new bearings, check everything out, etc. all good. Do 2 DE's and a Hillclimb after that, engine seems fine.

In June 2013, we do our first SCCA Hillclimb using Papa. On Sunday, I hear a funny noise in the engine so we stop running. It gets checked out at the shop and I'm told there's no problem, so 2 weeks later we make the 9 hr trek to Mid Ohio for the PCA Race. Again..on my second lap of my first practice - BANG. This time..its really bad. Oil everywhere. Broke a different rod which: busted a hole in the case, broke a couple valves, destroyed the GT3 oil pump, damaged a piston and cylinder, etc, etc, etc....

At this point we are obviously thinking WTF??? (OK, we've been thinking that all along but now...really????) so we look back on everything and see what we've done and what we can do different:
We had been running a stock 914/6 oil tank all this time, mounted in the normal 914/6 position. Maybe not enough oil? Knowing we had this monster GT3 oil pump ($1800 pump btw that is now toast) maybe the flow was too great, the lines too small (same -12 lines we had with the 2.2 engine...heck with the old 4 cylinder engine too to/from the cooler) and we were foaming the oil or starving the engine because not enough oil to keep up?? Nobody was absolutely certain...

So...now we needed to do a COMPLETE rebuild consisting of new case, new P&C's, new oil pump, couple new valves, this time a new crank...and of course while we were in there, we ported the heads, increasd the valves sizes, better springs, new cams, etc. We decided to back it down to a 3.2 but increased the compression and valve sizes, thus getting more HP & torque, but more easily sourced parts if need be and helped with my PCA race class....We had Armondo offset the rod journals and put bigger race bearing in (supposedly a trick way of getting more torque). All was back together and good, finally right?

Nope. First weekend out at VIR in Nov 2013, Nadine was on lap 2 (see a pattern here?) and heard that tell-tale knocking noise. Again...another spun bearing! Seriously???...this is getting absolutely crazy! This time, however, we found the problem - the oil line from the tank to the engine had collapsed on one of the bends, thus again starving the engine for oil...Can we ever catch a break???

And after all that..here's where it gets REALLY frustrating....

Just before Thanksgiving we send the crank back to Armondo, who has now moved to Texas. Our normal process is: we send the crank, he calls to say what's wrong and what it will cost, then 4 weeks or so later he gives me a final total with shipping, I overnight a check, he ships, all good. As you can see above, we've done this numerous times so we have a very good relationship going here (unfortunately). He had told me he feels so bad for the issues I've been having that he would give me a big discount and only charge for the outside work he has to pay for (nitriting) and the bearings. Fair enough. Just after New Years, I get a message from Armondo on how much I need to send him a check for. So I overnight a check and assume I would see the crank in a week.

A week goes by...no crank. I call him, leave a message. My mechanic Lou calls him...message. 2 weeks go by....I finally get him in early February!! and he says he is working on it now and I will have it by the end of Feb!! WTF? I get a sob story about how expensive the move to Texas was, and he needed my money to pay for the nitring and bearing BEFORE he got it done, not after like normal. I'm pissed, but he said he should have it done in a few weeks, I wait.

Early March...no crank. I will spare you the daily commentary of lies I got, but after 2 more months of "I'm working on it today and will ship tomorrow", I had a buddy of mine go to his place and pick up the crank, gears and bearings...at THE END OF APRIL!!! The work was only half done - no nitriting, no final polishing. I had him ship it all to Pauter and was told it would take 2-3 weeks to get the work on the crank done.

3 months later, with almost the EXACT SAME responses to my questions every week ("working on them now, will be out this week") we got everything back from Pauter in early August!!! yes...August 2014 for a spun bearing in November 2013!!



While we were waiting, we did major changes to the oil system: All the lines from the tank to the engine are now 1" hard lines, new oil cooler, bigger (-16) lines from the engine to the cooler, added a small oil supply feeder resevior just before the engine as recommended by Peter Dawe that holds about 2 qts immediately before entering the engine, changed some of the engine wiring to have a different start up procedure (turn the starter with no ECU/Fuel/spark until there's oil pressure, then kick on the rest of the power to start the car), redirected the engine and oil tank vents, and I'm sure much more I can't remember....

Our first weekend out was the end of October at CMP. Everything worked perfectly (yes, we made it past Lap 2!!!), though we broke a brand new CV joint. Back home, we drained the oil - no metal!! Positive sign!!!

Two weekends ago we were at very cold VIR. Good three days (except broke a shift rod...another story for another day), but engine was good. Needs dyno tuning, but performed strong and solid.

Oh, and during all this time, we added a wing and splitter....




Here are a couple video's from the weekends: First one is at CMP, second at VIR. Engine sounds good and is fairly fast, but I should have easily been able to catch the guys in front of me at VIR...needs tuning. And I'm now moving on to setting up the suspension...

And there you have it... As I mentioned above, I will get pics of some of the key parts and post them on this soon... If anyone has any specific questoins, please ask and I will help any way I can. We've learned a lot during this process.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!! Have a safe and enjoyable Holiday Season!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwdeNOwLHfI




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MntEEKR0as4

Posted by: Mueller Nov 27 2014, 09:50 AM

Bummer about the crank..what a pain!


Thanks for videos, brought a smile to my face and really got the blood going!

Car sounds great!

Posted by: stevegm Nov 27 2014, 10:31 AM

I saw you listed in the results for the Statesville PCA Autocross, in the October Tobacco Roads newsletter. Where are you located? Any luck on finalizing Octeenerfest 2015 dates, to include in the calendar?

Posted by: RobW Nov 27 2014, 11:09 AM

Lots to be thankful for it sounds like. Very smooth! Thanks for sharing!

Posted by: naro914 Nov 27 2014, 11:58 AM

Steve
Unfortunately....no on an Okteenerfest date (also note, it has a K not a C for Okteenerfest). I've contacted 6-8 places and either they can't do Sept/Oct next year or they are WAY too expensive for our group...or they do not return calls/emails.

our goal is to shoot for mid/late September....I just wish I had a firm date. Any way you can put it somwhere in September and say TBD?

BTW, we're in Charlotte on Mt Island Lake. You?

Posted by: two914-6s Nov 27 2014, 12:15 PM

Tough luck story , awesome looking and sounding car.
That must be a blast to drive

Posted by: Porschef Nov 27 2014, 12:22 PM

Sweet! Very cool. Looks like it was worth the wait, maybe not so much the aggravation...

BTW, nice steering wheel.

I have one for sale with the hub (shameless plug)

Posted by: stevegm Nov 27 2014, 01:20 PM

Yes. We can do that. It will definitely be in September, right? What we can do is set September aside for Okteenerfest, and just below the featured photo include the event photo that Steve sent me, and include a description of the event and contact info or web address. We just won't include anything on the specific dates. Sounds good?

We are in Cornelius, just North of Charlotte.

Posted by: 396 Nov 27 2014, 01:56 PM

A big congrats on your efforts!
I've always admired your ride. 3.4, care to PM me your header choice and jetting?

Enjoy your Thanksgiving

Posted by: naro914 Nov 27 2014, 03:34 PM

Really? PM me where. We are really close to Huntersville. We should get together sometime or I'll stop by.. You know Lou at Exclusive Motorwerks or John at Black Forest?

Posted by: stevegm Nov 27 2014, 03:38 PM

Yep. Small world. I will PM you.

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Nov 27 2014, 11:52 PM

No shortage of drama from Huey and Papa Smurf!
As always, enjoyed your stories, attention to detail, and tenacity in keeping your 914(s) racin. Fun to read while all the weemen are watching a cheesy holiday movie. Happy Thanksgiving!

Posted by: OllieG Nov 28 2014, 04:05 AM

Sounds like a major headache Bob!..glad the car seems to be running well now.

We'll have to get that artwork of Papa Smurf figured out one day.

Gotta love those in-car vids..

Posted by: naro914 Nov 28 2014, 07:57 AM

Ollie
It would be great if we could get Papa in one of your prints, but I know how difficult that will be. not really 'stock' body looking...

Glad I could provide a bit of holiday diversion for some of you, if you REALLY want to waste some time, go to our website...LOTS of videos there for everything from autocrosses, hillclimbs, races, DE, and Targa Newfoundland to just drives through the mountains.
Link below.

Have a safe holiday weekend everyone!

Posted by: r_towle Nov 28 2014, 05:25 PM

So basically, with a lot less typing, Papa don't suck.
Well, didn't suck, now it does...

Posted by: stownsen914 Nov 29 2014, 07:25 AM

Bob,

Papa Smurf has come a long way from when I rode with you and Nadine at Pocono back in the late 90s. Nice work. The car looks like a blast ...

Scott

Posted by: naro914 Nov 29 2014, 07:45 AM

don't you have that backwards?
Didn't, did, now doesn't.


Wow...a blast from the past! Yeah, been a long and winding road with lots of huge potholes!!

If I could get the dyno tuner to get the car in this week, we might go to the track this weekend, or next (not something we could say while up in NJ that's for sure!!) He's a bit busy though...he's the lead engineer for Rum Bum racing.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 29 2014, 08:49 AM

well, if it didn't suck, wouldn't you still be swapping in crankshafts and bearings?
Now that is really does suck, the bearings may last longer than two laps.

Now that it sucks, it doesn't suck.

Posted by: wndsnd Nov 29 2014, 03:58 PM

Gee, did you use Glyco rod bearings this last build?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/825748-rod-bearing-controversy.html


John

Posted by: naro914 Nov 29 2014, 07:31 PM

Nope, Clevites.

Posted by: naro914 Nov 29 2014, 07:33 PM

Um...uh....ok.

I get it, but you are a strange man....

Posted by: r_towle Nov 29 2014, 08:53 PM

Your point?

Posted by: naro914 Jul 12 2015, 07:26 AM

OH NO....NOT AGAIN!!!

So here we are, July 2015. To understand what has led up to this point, read Post #1.

Let me add more detail on the shift rod issue I eluded to in Post #1 - the 2014 VIR weekend:

As you can see, this was our first time back on track since Nov 2013. To recap, it was cold...really cold.. so we didn't do early runs. Later in the afternoon on Friday as I'm pulling out for one of my sessions, the axle bolts backed out and somehow got caught on the shift rod and bent/creased it!! Obviously they weren't tightened correctly by the guy that put the engine/trans in (though he denied it was his fault), but we lost a day and a half trying to fix the rod. In the end we each got a total of 3 sessions out of three days...

March 2015 at CMP, the car runs well!! Woohoo!! Happy Day!! FINALLY we get a good weekend!!!

March 2015 at the Road Atlanta Club Race...the new 915 transmission we had just put in expired after 15 minutes. This is a transmission that I had asked to have torn down and gone through because we knew nothing about it...but it was never done and we now had to suffer the consequences....3 more missed days on a race weekend...

May 2015 at an SCCA TimeTrial - our first ever and something new and exciting especially for Nadine so she could do something competitive that's not wheel to wheel. After 5 laps, the crank pulley bolt backed out, shearing the dowel pin. We were done before Nadine ever got to drive....

The car had been at Exclusive Motorwerks since the transmission failure in March (actually, it's kinda lived there for 3 years now dealing with all the issues). Lou was supposed to prep it for the track. This bolt NEVER backs out if it's torqued correctly and has loctite on it. It wasn't and didn't.

When I called Lou to tell him how upset we were, he asked "why do you always blame me for everything? Why is this MY fault? I'm sick of this f*&king car and sick of working on your cars" and he then hung up on me!!



So at that point, we were done, and we were finally moving on from his shop. I haven't spoken to him since. But unfortunately the story doesn't end there... I get the pulley fixed, new dowel pin, and reinstall it...all seems good. But 2 weeks later while prepping Papa Smurf for The Hawk vintage race at Road America, I start it up and hear an odd noise... uh oh... it sounded just like that noise back at the hillclimb in 2013.

So I drain the oil and find this:



Yes...what you see there is bearing material (brown piece is copper).. For the 5th time in less than 3 years, our engine is toast...again...

The last 4+ years have been both so mentally and financially draining on us that we are to the point of giving it all up and being done with it all. We have spent an enormous amount of money, time and emotion into this, and have nothing to show for it. This is supposed to be fun, but we have been having anything but. We are tired of being upset, tired of being pissed off, tired of constant disappointment. Its started to affect our marriage, our relationship with others, and the way we view just about everything. I'm starting to feel like an angry old man...and I hate that!!

I spent a week getting Huey race ready and transferring a lot of things out of Papa so we can do the Hawk race next weekend - only because it's all paid for and I can't get a refund - but I am very concerned because the engine was just rebuilt last year by the same guy. Huey is not a track car. I will tool around in the back and run at 7/10ths or less. I just hope we don't have two dead cars when we return.

So this video, taken at the time trial, may be the last video we will have of Papa Smurf in a long time....I just don't know. For now, he's being stored away under a cover. Maybe next year things will change, but I really don't know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6EX9PI0r88


I'm sure many of you will read all this and scoff, saying 'such problems, boohoo', and I understand that. But we don't have kids, have worked hard for what we have, and the Porsche Club and track driving have been a major part of our lives and entertainment for most of our 24 years of marriage. Its something we do together, its our hobby, and when things are good, we have a great time and love it. But things haven't been 'good' for so long that we are questioning everything about it.

All I ever wanted to do was be a race driver. I love it and its been a dream of mine since I was young to drive professionally. I'm too old for that dream to ever come true now, but doing amateur races and track weekends at least filled the thrill part. But we just can't go through the frustration and pain we've experienced the past few years any more.

We will still do Hillclimbs and autocrosses with Huey (assuming he makes it through the Hawk), but it's just not the same.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just venting...I worked with Lou to help him get his business up and running, to get him out of a bunch of legal issues he was getting himself into, to renegotiate contracts so his equipment didn't get repossessed, I introduced him to lawyers and accountants to take care of him and his issues. I brought in a bunch of customers and helped him grow his business....all I was looking for was a car that ran reliably. Unfortunately, I was being too loyal to a 'friend' who obviously was in a bit over his head with our car. My bad...

Why am I sharing all of this? I don't really know. Maybe because its the easiest way to share what's happening in our lives with so many friends and people that have helped us through the years. Maybe It's because I just want to vent my frustrations and detail how pissed off we are right now with a particular shop... Maybe because I'm mad at myself because I didn't see the obvious signs long ago and move on... I don't know...

Thanks for reading....

Posted by: trojanhorsepower Jul 12 2015, 07:41 AM

Bob,

I am sure that everyone here feels just sympathy. Frustration and disappointment are universal regardless of tax bracket.

Thank you for sharing, and who knows maybe some here can help. If I can do something to help please let me know.

Peter

Posted by: RobW Jul 12 2015, 07:48 AM

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. Your long journey will make your success all the sweeter. Find a new builder, or find a new engine. There are great people who can build motors, like Jerry Woods out here in CA.

I don't recommend giving up on a dream. You will see things thing through. There's always a solution for determined people, and you've done more with your cars than most can do in their lifetimes.

Hang in there!

Posted by: AndyB Jul 12 2015, 08:04 AM

Bob,

I feel your pain. I have invested both time and lots of financial resources into Scarlet. Last year Racer Chris had that car tuned and dialed perfect. I drove her right until the salt hit the road. This past January I finally cleared out my brothers belongings and was finally able to put the 914 in the garage. I started it and she went from zero to well past red line before I was able to turn the key off. Spun a couple of bearings and made some circle holes into ovals. I was pissed at myself, my brother for dying, and 5 degree weather. Today I will go outside greet both 914's and continue my work on one in order to attempt and have one for Hershey next year. Trust me I am empathetic to your cause. I am not a high roller when it comes to my finances, I save and ask my wife for prior approval on purchases. This almost broke me on restoring the car, I spent months working overtime for this engine. I eventually got past (not over) the engine and am going a different route. Stay with the car, give it time find a mechanic that you can trust and go from there.

Andy

Posted by: brant Jul 12 2015, 08:12 AM

It's got to get better.
Sorry for the terrible luck
Maybe a different wrench will bring longevity
Sucky
Hang in there

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 12 2015, 08:40 AM

That does bite and like many of us, I can relate somewhat too. I bought my current engine newly-rebuilt in a crate with dyno time only. It had been built by a 'reputable' builder yet after only two seasons - not even very busy/intense ones - I had to have it fully rebuilt again which cost a boatload in time and cash. Once apart, my builder found some questionable machine work and parts he frowned upon.

If you decide to stay in the game, you may want to consider shipping the engine out to someone like Aase here in SoCal. They build many of the top aircooled race motors out west and will stand by their work. (I have never used them but probably will in the future.) Obviously there are other solid shops too.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 12 2015, 09:06 AM

Hey guys
Thanks. There's a few issues at hand here: We honestly don't have the money to fix it and even if we did, we're struggling with the thought of spending a boatload more just to hope we have no issues. This is the 5th time in less than 3 years with virtually no "good time". I know who it would be going to - Peter Dawe at Dawes Motorsports. That's where we should have gone years ago. He ain't cheap, but builds awesome race engines.
The other issue is...like all of us here, we keep trying to fix a 40 year old car. Sure a lot of it is newer technology, but in the end it's a 40 year old car that has been so modified it doesn't fit competitively into any race classes. We can't compete with the spending race that is PCA GT classes, it's not really competitive as an SCCA GT2 class car, and it's not vintage legal...so what do I do with it? If it's just for DE or to "participate" with no chance to compete, does it make sense to spend the kind of money and effort we have???

Posted by: brant Jul 12 2015, 09:25 AM

Make it vintage legal
You are building the motor anyways. Go 2.0!

Or sell it and buy a used spec boxter for pca

Posted by: poorsche914 Jul 12 2015, 10:11 AM

I guess you could say Papa Smurf is your "bad kid"... the one that is always causing heartache but you love him anyway.
Give him some tough love... go back to vintage legal as Brant mentioned. Yeah, he won't be as fast but maybe he'll learn to behave.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 12 2015, 10:21 AM

Vintage has a problem with the body, wing, splitter,wheels,/tires ,engine, suspension, etc. ....basically the whole car.

Would be cheaper to just buy a different car...which again, leaves Papa where?

Posted by: matthepcat Jul 12 2015, 10:44 AM

Bummer. Maybe consider engine conversion in your race car. Porsche motors are expensive to blow up, but Subaru or LS1 is affordable? Blasphemy yes, but it's a race car...not much left that is Porsche at that point.

Posted by: Mueller Jul 12 2015, 10:51 AM

This was my thought as well, at least here in CA one could still play at the PCA autocross (fun runs, no class) the SCCA autocross and NASA track days.

No real times and not sure how easy to do 2 drivers with the track days.

Sorry to hear about your motor issues, this is what is keeping me with the stockish Type IV motors, I don't the stomach to dump that much time or money into something and have it go south.

Posted by: billh1963 Jul 12 2015, 12:23 PM

This almost always leads to disappointment. When you help out a friend to this level, you will almost certainly lose them. I know you had a similar experience with another shop a couple of years ago.

I have similar experiences...and, they have ended the same.

You and Nadine are business people....treat it as such. Get focused. You know what jobs on your car you are willing to do and what you aren't. For the work you won't or can't do, find the BEST, pay the price, and enjoy the results. Don't be led astray by friends or friends of friends...it's YOUR MONEY (and, potentially, YOUR LIFE).

It sounds trite; but, you know it's better to pay more upfront for quality work. You could have probably had two top quality motors for the money you have sunk into rework. Regroup mentally, shrug it off, and move forward.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jul 12 2015, 12:31 PM

Bob- Truly every owner's nightmare. We sink time, energy and money into our cars and all we really want is a car that runs the way it is designed to run. There are, unfortunately, some shops which grow faster than they can adjust to, or who just get bogged down in work and can no longer provide the attention to detail they once did. The hard part is recognizing that and pulling the pin when appropriate. Finding a new shop which does that high-quality work is the challenge. We all know several major engine builders who are members here who do outstanding work. I always prefer to go with someone who has been personally recommended. I hope you are able to come back from this disappointment and once again enjoy the hobby you and your wife love so much.

Posted by: stownsen914 Jul 12 2015, 04:15 PM

Really sorry to hear about the trouble, Bob. My parents went through a similar ordeal years ago getting an ex-IMSA 911 running. Seemed like endless troubles until things settled down eventually. If you decide to go with a Peter Dawe motor, you won't be disappointed. Hopefully enough of the motor is salvageable that you can have him build you the "same" engine and get you back on the road.

On my side, I lost the motor in my 914 at Monticello, and now am seeing some telltale metal flakes in the 911"s oil filter. Grrr ... So I feel a bit of your pain, brother.

Stick with it, and it will work out.

Posted by: mepstein Jul 12 2015, 04:20 PM

Take a break. Put aside some money. Get a new engine. Put the past in the past and have fun again.

I'd still like to meet you guys one day. Maybe next time I drop off or pick up my son at Davidson college.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 12 2015, 04:25 PM

How about at Okteenerfest!!!

Posted by: mepstein Jul 12 2015, 04:32 PM

Using up all my vacation time to take care of my daughter after surgery and its to far away to drive my. 1.7. Next year hopefully with a 3.2

Posted by: db9146 Jul 12 2015, 08:34 PM

Bob, I have no advice for you as far as Papa Smurf goes....but I can say that with all of this going it, it is astounding that you have taken the time and effort to out of your schedule to put towards the Okteenerfest 2015! THANK YOU very much for your efforts!!

Posted by: rick 918-S Jul 12 2015, 10:29 PM

Go big Bob. Shit happens. Find a new engine builder or learn how to build your own.

I've lost 3 928 euro "S" engines in the Alien to a mystery broken cam. The end of the cam broke just behind the gear but before the threaded bore allowing the end of the cam to rotate out of phase. Something you would never look for as I never had to disassemble the cams. One engine broke the second it fired after install. Talk about a sick sinking feeling! No one to blame but myself as I built the engines. It was an expensive mistake. The last engine is still running. We drove a remote prairie two lane in Wyoming. The speedo at 140 mph at times but never under triple digits for 40 miles. Try that for a rush! The day you light either car off with that fresh engine you'll forget all about the cold hard cash.

Set up a clean table when you get home and start the tear down. Lets see what happened.

Posted by: Wdunster Jul 13 2015, 04:48 AM

Hey don't forget about me! I always like finding other 914 guys
B

Posted by: naro914 Jul 13 2015, 05:57 AM

THAT is certainly not happening. Nadine is adamant to sell it all...car, trailer, spares, everything. Unfortunately this stretch has beaten me down so much I'm almost right there with her. Even last night we ended up in a fight about it because I even MENTIONED wanting to put the wing and splitter back on that I took off for the Hawk race.

Plus...if the time does come that we get over it and DO decide to rebuild, there's no way I should be the one looking at it. I would rather an expert go through it. There is something not obvious going on here. Lou has built dozens of street engines that don't have issues, something weird is going on with this engine. But what could it be??

This last time around, just about everything was replaced...seriously, the only things NOT NEW are the intake and ECU. Heck, even the cam housings are new!!

Building a street engine is one thing...anyone can do that. Building a high hp reliable air cooled race engine is an art and very few guys can do it right. Unfortunately I've learned the hard way...

Posted by: naro914 Jul 13 2015, 06:29 AM

The problem here is that I thought I WAS going the better route and WAS paying for quality work. Previously, we went the 'cheap' route and got what we paid for. In many ways, these past 3 years we went the 'no expense spared' route with Lou and still got screwed. I've seen Lou build dozens of engines, but if I'm honest with myself, ours is pretty much the only full race engine he's ever done, and the ONLY 914 he did major work on. Each failure we blamed on a different issue: low oil, crimped oil line, weak rod, etc. But each time the same result. I am not a mechanic and when a supposed 'expert' tells you something and you trust him, you tend to go with what he says.

But yes, shame on me for putting loyalty before (what now is hindsight) common sense. One of the problems was that the only guy I really believe can make this work - Peter Dawe - is 8 hours away. Lou was easier...but easier is obviously not always better...

Funny (ok, sick funny) side note: Lou the other day posted a picture of a car at the dyno with a newly built race engine he just finished on his shops Facebook page. Nadine posted "Hope that engine lasts longer than ours" and he immediately deleted the post....Also deleted Ali Dunsters post about it....shocking...

Posted by: naro914 Jul 13 2015, 06:32 AM

Absolutely family care comes first. Sorry you can't make it but we completely understand. Hope she recovers well!!

Posted by: John Jentz Jul 13 2015, 10:05 AM

You and Nadine are at a dangerous point. No car, no motorsport, no nothing is worth more than your relationship with Nadine. Put the cars away until you both can laugh about this disaster.

I saw you guys just after you came in at Road Atlanta and later at the pub and you two were not in a good place. Find that good place again.

Posted by: JRust Jul 13 2015, 12:41 PM

I had a pretty shitty run myself with my 914. I know how it goes & while my issues were a little different. I know where you are coming from. Definitely take some time away & just let both of you relax. This is one of those things any time you think of it will instantly bring up harsh feelings. You've got to find a way around that before doing anything. Might even mean selling but if done to quickly you may regret it. Just take some time & the right decision will come. Good luck bud & keep your chin up

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 13 2015, 10:38 PM

That was pretty much the hard lesson I learned too, 2011-2013. $20K+ down the drain...well not totally as I did get some very fun times out of that first 2.7 build. But, it was a hot-rodded street engine, not a race engine. You do not cruise or coast on the track. The engine needs to handle continuous high RPMs, temperatures, and G-loads in all 3 dimensions. That one did not.

The second time around I used an extremely experienced builder/machinist/racer and, hopefully, the right parts. Little was re-used from the first engine besides the crank (x-rayed etc), pistons, and heads (extensively optimized flow and all new race valve-gear). This guy had similar shop and personal issues to your guy though, so the experience turned into a nightmare but I do have continued confidence in his workmanship.

Good luck to you and Nadine in figuring-out what is best for your relationship and hobby.

Posted by: blabla914 Jul 14 2015, 11:18 AM

The other issue is...like all of us here, we keep trying to fix a 40 year old car. Sure a lot of it is newer technology, but in the end it's a 40 year old car that has been so modified it doesn't fit competitively into any race classes. We can't compete with the spending race that is PCA GT classes, it's not really competitive as an SCCA GT2 class car, and it's not vintage legal...so what do I do with it? If it's just for DE or to "participate" with no chance to compete, does it make sense to spend the kind of money and effort we have???
[/quote]
Sorry for the bad times Bob. Unfortunately when a car gets that modified you are basically running your own development effort. That's a lot of work and a lot of money.
We are amateurs. This is supposed to be fun. I think you have already answered your final question. No, it doesn't.
I don't suppose you have the old engine you took out? Lots of options really, but reliability has to be number one.

Kelly

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 14 2015, 06:18 PM

^^^ As I understand, that is one reason Roger Sheridan stopped actively racing his purple hippy-themed "914". It was no longer really a 914 and may not even be considered a Porsche depending on the rules and personalities involved. So then you have essentially a custom one-off car that is a frankenstein of 40+ year-old technology mixed with later bits, and you get classed with modern GT3's and whatnot.

I am somewhat in that boat too with my extensive mods (but not nearly as extreme), and right now am running in an empty POC class. Winning never sucks but is it really winning when there's no direct competition? So I need to either bounce into a GT class and/or go vintage, and will likely be totally non-competitive in either but will be more challenged and perhaps have more fun.

Posted by: brant Jul 14 2015, 06:34 PM

A 914 can be pretty competitive in vintage fellas.

Posted by: crash914 Jul 14 2015, 07:30 PM

I feel your pain. many $$ into a race motor, then nothing...I am hoping i can salvage something. at least 1 head.

see if you can obtain a stock 3.2 or 3.6 and just run it. That's what I am thinking, only with a 4 cyl. something reliable first, have fun then tweek it. I just can't afford the pain and $$...good luck! the women always want to give away the car...for pennies...rebuild and make it stronger!

Posted by: 914_teener Jul 14 2015, 07:46 PM

Posted by: blabla914 Jul 15 2015, 11:06 AM

Bob, I have a story for you. A friend of a friend, I wish I could remember his name, here in CT had a GT class 914 with a Dawe motor in it. Full race car, different, but just as radical as Papa Smurf.
I was at my friends kid's birthday party and this guy is his dad's neighbor. Of course I drove my 914 to the party and some other interesting stuff showed up so we are all out in the driveway talking and then we went to his garage and checked out his racer. Now I hadn't met him before, but he's real good friends with my buddy's dad (they share the garage) and we start talking about all kinds of stuff. Plus we have all had a few beers, especially him since he didn't have to drive home.
He tells us that motor runs like a banshee with no problems, but it was a big mistake. Before this motor he had a warmed up 3.0L that he ran for several seasons till it gave up. He had the best time gobbling up track time whenever and however he could. While the new motor was on a totally different level performance wise, it was a ton of money and he was looking at 40 hr life. Now he was a lot more selective about where he ran, short shifted in practice, and generally worried about what he would do if it broke. Last summer I saw the car was up for sale.
More is always better until it's too much. Your car weighs what, 2100lbs wet? You put a warmed up 3.2 in that thing it'll still be a blast to drive. My friend Eric Valedeserra had a warmed up 3.2 in a 914 and he ran it for years on the track doing double duty with his son. Sadly it outlasted the car!
I understand this car was originally owned by a family member, so I'm sure you are not crazy about selling it. Here's an idea. Pull apart that high dollar motor you've got and sell off whatever isn't damaged. Or maybe find someone who will buy it as is. That might pay for quite a bit of a warmed up 3.0 or 3.2.
Go have fun.

Kelly

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 15 2015, 11:16 AM

If you decide to move forward with the car in the future, contact Henry Schmidt at Supertec.
It would be well worth the crating and shipping expense to have Henry work on your race engine.

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Jul 15 2015, 02:16 PM

Bummer!
I always enjoy reading the latest (miss)adventures of Huey and Papa Smurf

But now....

Hopefully soon...

I hear Brant's advice. Wheel to wheel in vintage racing has always sounded so cool to me, and one of those 914s could be brought to fit into a class there, I would think. And if wheel to wheel is the goal, and Porsche is the marque, then the spec Boxter scene is a great place to be. I'd own a Boxter if I could afford it! A 914 is pretty awesome in the mean time

Good luck!

Posted by: wndsrfr Jul 15 2015, 06:54 PM

Bob--I was at the RA event in March when your trans screwed up--real bummer for sure. Behind the scenes, my trans was being destroyed at the same event. Lube failure in the frosty cold, shipped it off to Dr. Evil, everything replaced. Also replaced flywheel & clutch, 3 months to get it back together. So, another 3 grand "invested" in my hobby that Bev isn't real enthusiastic about to say the least.

That said, Hmmmm....Papa Smurf, Huey, Nadine...Papa Smurf, Huey, Nadine.....
Ummmm......Keep Nadine--she's the real jewel!

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 16 2015, 06:55 PM

In my experience we are at the point where a Spec Boxster is cheaper than a modified 914 or aircooled 911, to both buy/build as well as operate. That's really the intent of the class. Blow an engine or trans...couple grand at the junkyard gets you another one. Tires are spec DOT-R and relatively small. Race fuel not required...

Andrew Weyman (president of POC) has a fairly competitive BSR for sale right now. He's asking $25K and that may even include a trailer, IIRC.

It is a compelling idea and I thought about it fairly seriously when my 914 was apart for a couple years eating 5-figure checks for lunch. But, I love the raw 914 and aircooled -6 experience enough where I stayed the course.

Posted by: Larmo63 Jul 16 2015, 10:34 PM

It's actually easy to 'friend' Exclusive Motorwerks on Facebook and comment on the dyno post.

I guess I'm just a smartass and feel bad for you guys.

Posted by: bandjoey Jul 17 2015, 06:18 PM

OK. It' time for a fun break!
Go get a 2.0 -4 and you and Nadine relive the fun of driving the 914 at 'normal' twisty speeds. While you're both taking time off from racing, park Huey in my garage. I'll build a shrine, keep him polished and keep him company.
6 months from now this will sort itself out. Happy wife, happy life.
I've really enjoyed the story of the 2 cars and meeting you at MUSR a few years ago. Best wishes for a great outcome.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jul 17 2015, 07:30 PM

Some good ideas here in the last couple of threads. This will sound stupid coming from a 31 year old, but the wife has to come first, as long as she always puts you first. I know you don't have kids, but I can say after having mine, that I'd sell off everything I own and work three jobs to keep my wife and my son happy. There is always time to come back to possessions later in life. Nadine sounds like a wonderful woman who has supported your hobby, going as far as to enjoy it with you. That is what I think people call, "a keeper."

Maybe consider selling off some parts and spares, maybe even a car. Spec Miata is, from what I know, a ton of fun and relatively cheap (though we all know there's no such thing as cheap racing). Parts are plentiful and the cars are simple, and not so different than a 914. If an engine blows, it's not a life changing event and there are plenty of places to race them.

At some point or another, we all get screwed, both by friends and businesses. It's not pretty, but it puts things in perspective. You'll be okay as long as your perspective includes those things which are truly important.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 17 2015, 08:11 PM

Hey guys...lots of good thoughts here. We are currently at the Hawk race with Huey. Doing OK, not fast but fun. Update on Facebook page.
So quick: Nadine and I are fine. Just frustrated so thanks for worrying about us !!
Going to just sit on Papa through the rest of the year, then decide.
I'll give more details/comments/replies on the posts when I'm not sitting at the bar in Elkhart Lake after 6 beers

Posted by: RobW Jul 19 2015, 07:22 AM

Good to hear things are sorting out. Keep up the fun stuff!

Posted by: r_towle Jul 19 2015, 07:46 AM

Sell it, buy a boat.
It's a whole new level of fun.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:11 AM

OK, got back from the Hawk late last night, had an AWESOME time!! Huey performed somewhat flawlessly, the only issues were simple fixes, some self inflicted (like not running the fuel vent line from the new fuel cell correctly and having fuel spout out everywhere!! my bad...) but very slow compared to everyone else.

In the end, Huey is NOT a good race track car. With the 3.2, it's classed in with cars WAY faster and WAY more race built. Realistically, Huey is a stock 914 with a GT body, rollcage/seats/harnesses, and a street stock 3.2 engine. Nothing more than many of you do for your street cars that stick a 3.2 in it except the safety stuff. Stock suspension, stock 901 trans, even has carpeting!! I will be putting together some video's, but every car literally RAN away from me everywhere on the track. For the feature race on Sunday, I finished dead last on the track (only beat the guys that didn't finish). With the 3.2, I get classed as GTO...some really big boy cars in that class. So the idea of getting a stock engine for Papa Smurf is not realistic...And Papa would have been classed with the REALLY big boys - World Challenge, ALMS, DTM, Grand Am, etc. type cars!! For Vintage, they don't like anything about Papa Smurf, so he's out for that racing venue.

So where does that leave us? We have two potentially awesome 914's that can't be raced anywhere competitively. I REALLY do not want to buy ANOTHER race car (can't afford it), and I just can't see dismantling Papa Smurf and parting it out. We've put way too much into that car for that. but without an engine, it's virtually worthless...

THAT'S the frustrating part.

I'll respond to specific comments in the next few posts...

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:18 AM

sorry to hear about your troubles too

As noted above, the problem with a stock engine is we won't be able to race it. Won't be competitive (as I learned this past weekend).

Nadine is just as much into this as me, so it is a little different. She's past the "sell it all" emotion now and with the fun we had this past weekend, I think we may formulate a plan at year's end. Don't know what that will be, but at least it's a step forward...

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:29 AM

Realistically, the engine we have isn't all that overbuilt, its NOT one of these high strung engines that some of these guys build. It's 11:1 compression, twin plug, some trick cams but that's about it. Timing is not advanced too much (I have an awesome tuner that errs on the side of caution with us amateur racers) If anything, the money we've spent that past few times was to help make it more reliable - opened up the oil galleys in the case and crank, better bearings, stronger rods, etc. The issue is not in the stress the engine is seeing, heck as you said, his was a 40 hour engine. Only lasting 8 is not an engine problem, it's a build problem.

So in many ways, it IS just a warmed over 3.2. The guy that had the original engine before me that we bought ran it for many years with zero problems, and he was EXCEPTIONALLY fast and raced 10 weekends a year. He's as baffled as us as to why we're having the issues...

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:31 AM

SPB is not out of the question...just not sure what we would do with Papa if we went that route.

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:39 AM

First things first, this is OUR hobby, not just mine! She LOVES racing and loves being at the track. For her birthday each year, we go to the Rolex 24 at Daytona. She is a PCA National Scrutineer, a PCA driving instructor, and a DAMN good driver. And her goal is to become a data engineer/data coach so she's been learning all the data and stuff we can pull off of our smartycam and AIM Solo units. She spends time with the pro's, takes classes...she really loves this stuff!! This is partly why this is so painful, we BOTH want to be doing track stuff.

Funny story - she went out for the parade laps at the Hawk this weekend and took Huey since she's never been on Road America. Mind you, these were PARADE laps at controlled speed. She came it and said "Jeez, I can't see how you can be racing this car, it handles so much worse and is so much slower than Papa!" Yep, she's almost as bad as the rest of us..

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:42 AM

Have had two, never again.

As they say, the two best days of boat ownership are the day you buy it, and the day you sell it!!

Or...the best boat is your friends boat!

Posted by: naro914 Jul 20 2015, 07:43 AM

so if any of you want updates on how things went at the Hawk, I've been posting on the NaroEscape Motorsports Facebook page. Much easier to do on a phone while sitting in the pits or at the bar!

Posted by: RobW Jul 20 2015, 09:57 AM

Bob, I gave my 914 calendar to my 8 yo son yesterday. I found it in the office and thought he'd really like it. When I got up this AM, he was making the calendar HIS by striking out each day that's gone by this year, which is his occasional custom.

So I asked him, "which 914 is your favorite?"

He told me that he knew for sure and flipped through the pages, and went forward and back again, certain of his choice.

He finally found his favorite...... you guessed it, Papa Smurf!