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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ "Front main" seal on a /6

Posted by: Lawrence Feb 1 2005, 09:46 PM

Okay... I've got a severe leak from the front main of the /6.

I don't have a ATV jack, and not sure where I can borrow one. Anyone have an alternative (safe) method to R&R the drivetrain?

Also, as long as I'm in there, what else should I check? I plan on replacing & tensioning the belt while I'm in there, too.

Any traps I might fall into... except DWD?

-Rusty

Posted by: Sammy Feb 1 2005, 11:53 PM

Ceck the gasket on the little cover plate for the intermediate shaft, make sure you keep the same thickness of gasket on it.

BTW, them pulley bolts can be real tight. No, scratch that. They can be real friggin tight!
Prolly have to lock the flywheel with a tool unless you have a mean impact gun.

Check your oil pressure sender for leakage while you gots her out.

Posted by: trekkor Feb 2 2005, 12:07 AM

For the seal...

R&R. I got that.
We used a low profile furniture dolly on a floor jack.
You can place the dolly forward as the weight is all there.

Put a piece of lumber ( 2x6 ) on a floor jack with the dolly on top of it. The dolly will pick up the motor and trans together. Good span and the lift is well balanced.

Once the drive train is on the ground tilt the whole thing foward and slide out the jack and lumber and you can wheel the goods anywhere you want.

Hope this works for you. You may already know that the carbs need to come off or the axles will hang up when you try and slide it all out.

KT

Posted by: Lawrence Feb 2 2005, 08:32 AM

QUOTE (Sammy @ Feb 2 2005, 12:53 AM)
Ceck the gasket on the little cover plate for the intermediate shaft, make sure you keep the same thickness of gasket on it.

BTW, them pulley bolts can be real tight. No, scratch that. They can be real friggin tight!
Prolly have to lock the flywheel with a tool unless you have a mean impact gun.

Check your oil pressure sender for leakage while you gots her out.

Good point on the oil pressure sender. I've got a new one and new gauge module. It's a great time to do that.

Lock the flywheel? Hmmm, that means splitting the engine/transmission. I'd hoped to avoid that.

I don't want to rip the whole engine apart begin a rebuild by replacing one seal... but anything else I should be looking at?

-Rusty

P.S. Hey Trekkor... can your method be done with one person?

Posted by: trekkor Feb 2 2005, 09:01 AM

You can do it solo if you want. Getting it balanced is the key.

We had the jack too far back towards the trans, so having two people was good. Still got it installed in an hour

KT

Posted by: Sammy Feb 2 2005, 09:10 AM

You can get one of those ATV jacks for around $45 nowadays (Kragen, pep boys), pretty cheeep considering how easy they make the job . Lots cheeeeper than getting hurt or breaking sumthin.
I'm so spoiled by mine I wouldn't think of dropping my engine without it.

Posted by: trekkor Feb 2 2005, 09:18 AM

That would be *best*. Don't they include straps as well?

KT

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 2 2005, 09:35 AM

Another one bites the dust. We should talk to the UN about funding a cure. So far there seems to be no remedy for DWD.

As "Miles" states... "Drop the engine and turn to page one of the 914club 10,000 step program."

Posted by: Lawrence Feb 2 2005, 10:37 AM

Oh no. Hell no. This won't be DWD... but if there are some preventative things I can do that will help me avoid dropping the engine again in the next 6 months or a year - then I'm all over that.

-Rusty

Posted by: rhaas Feb 2 2005, 12:15 PM

if the pulley bolt is real tight, you can put the transmission into a high gear like 5th, and set the parking brake. this is normally enough to lock the motor and you can get the bolt out.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 2 2005, 01:35 PM

Topic just came up in another thread...

Get new soft lines for your rear brakes and change those while the engine is out. Seriously. Well worth the $30.00 as insurance. Your car is now officially 35 years old.

If you don't drive it often, take the opp. to remove the fuel pump and blow a can of brake cleaner through it

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 2 2005, 02:14 PM

Tips:

That motor is taller than you think.....about 24 inches with the carbs on(no aircleaner). Add "lifting gear" 6-8 inches and you need 30-32 inches under the rear valence.....I go to 34 and I like the car level.

The ATV lifts are cheep insurance...specially if you're under there by your self. As Sammy said (in a moment of licidity) I wouldn't use anything else, it'll spoil you rotten.

I use a dolly with casters to support the engine....you need some sort of dolly. Mine has 2 on edge 2 X 4s with a cutout
to clear the oil cooler tube. The 2 X 4s support the motor at the cam towers.....wait, there's more

The ATV lifts have about 14 inches lift. With the car that high you'll come about 10-12 short of the engine. You'll neeed a box or blocks under your dolly to reach it.

When you lower the motor, drop it down about 13 inches and block the dolly, pull the ATV lift & big box out, remove the 10 inch box, slide the ATV lift back in, pick the dolly and drop the motor to the floor.

All this is a PITA, eh?....but it is safe. This set-up is stable....you could dance on the motor without it tipping.
It's still a good idea to have someone else there to report what went wrong.

Here's a lousy pic or the dolly.

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Posted by: J P Stein Feb 2 2005, 02:18 PM

Hay, that was a good pic....fergot I had it.
Box on dolly/lift....nuther i fergot.

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Posted by: J P Stein Feb 2 2005, 02:19 PM

Engine on dolly

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Posted by: Lawrence Feb 2 2005, 03:37 PM

Nice pictures, JP.

Forgive my ignorance. What is the notch for on your platform?

-Rusty

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 2 2005, 03:53 PM

Oel Cooler?

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 2 2005, 06:06 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Feb 2 2005, 12:14 PM)
Mine has 2 on edge 2 X 4s with a cutout
to clear the oil cooler tube. The 2 X 4s support the motor at the cam towers.....wait, there's more

hummm.

Posted by: Lawrence Feb 2 2005, 07:06 PM

More?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 2 2005, 08:36 PM

I REALLY don't want to tell you all this, but the odds are heavily against the leak being the seal. In nearly every engine I've seen with pulley leaks (in 32+ years), it's been the o-ring on the #8 main bearing. The seal, BTW, is installed IN the bearing, and the bearing is installed in the case. Granted, there are hose and fitting leaks, pressure and temp sender leaks, and occasionally leaks at the counter shaft gasket, but leaks from behind the pulley are rarely the seal. BTW, this is especially true for the light alloy cases. The fix is a case split, and a quality engine gasket set. The Cap'n

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 2 2005, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 2 2005, 06:36 PM)
I REALLY don't want to tell you all this, but the odds are heavily against the leak being the seal. In nearly every engine I've seen with pulley leaks (in 32+ years), it's been the o-ring on the #8 main bearing. The seal, BTW, is installed IN the bearing, and the bearing is installed in the case. Granted, there are hose and fitting leaks, pressure and temp sender leaks, and occasionally leaks at the counter shaft gasket, but leaks from behind the pulley are rarely the seal. BTW, this is especially true for the light alloy cases. The fix is a case split, and a quality engine gasket set. The Cap'n

Ayup, that's where mine's at. I didn't put case sealer on #8....shitfuck.

Posted by: BigD9146gt Feb 2 2005, 09:46 PM

OT, hey guys, i'm new at this, whats DWD?... Besides my startup company (DonWelchDesign)

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 3 2005, 02:43 AM

QUOTE (BigD9146gt @ Feb 2 2005, 07:46 PM)
OT, hey guys, i'm new at this, whats DWD?... Besides my startup company (DonWelchDesign)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=22699&hl=dwd&st=0

About half way down the first page.

Posted by: larryM Mar 2 2005, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 2 2005, 06:36 PM)
I REALLY don't want to tell you all this, but the odds are heavily against the leak being the seal. In nearly every engine I've seen with pulley leaks (in 32+ years), it's been the o-ring on the #8 main bearing. The seal, BTW, is installed IN the bearing, and the bearing is installed in the case. Granted, there are hose and fitting leaks, pressure and temp sender leaks, and occasionally leaks at the counter shaft gasket, but leaks from behind the pulley are rarely the seal. BTW, this is especially true for the light alloy cases. The fix is a case split, and a quality engine gasket set. The Cap'n

I fought this last year; pulled the engine; leak indeed turned out to be the gasket on the intermediate cover

Posted by: Gint Mar 2 2005, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty Posted on Feb 2 2005 @ 07:36 PM)
I REALLY don't want to tell you all this, but the odds are heavily against the leak being the seal. In nearly every engine I've seen with pulley leaks (in 32+ years), it's been the o-ring on the #8 main bearing. The seal, BTW, is installed IN the bearing, and the bearing is installed in the case. Granted, there are hose and fitting leaks, pressure and temp sender leaks, and occasionally leaks at the counter shaft gasket, but leaks from behind the pulley are rarely the seal. BTW, this is especially true for the light alloy cases. The fix is a case split, and a quality engine gasket set. The Cap'n

Can someone explain this to me. #8 main bearing o-ring? O-ring? Huh? Got pics?

Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 2 2005, 10:29 PM

Here you go.... #27 is the O-ring that goes around the outside of the bearing (#25)

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Posted by: Joe Sharp Mar 2 2005, 10:57 PM

Rusty: It's nice to know that i"m not the only one with DWD.
Joe

Posted by: Gint Mar 2 2005, 11:07 PM

Thanks Clay. And just how does one go about replacing that bad boy?

Posted by: TimT Mar 2 2005, 11:29 PM

QUOTE
And just how does one go about replacing that bad boy?

You split the case

depending what year engine you have there are different o-rings available, I think for the 2.7 and later the improved the o-ring has a slightly larger diameter (thicker) rubber, which can be used on the earlier nose bearings...but not vice versa

Posted by: Gint Mar 2 2005, 11:33 PM

Thanks Tim. That's exactly the answer I didn't want to hear.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Mar 2 2005, 11:47 PM

BTW, there's NO sealant in there, just the case, the bearing, and the o- ring. Sealant prevents the seal between the o-ring and the metal, and it'll leak. The Cap'n

Posted by: Gint Mar 2 2005, 11:52 PM

How did I KNOW you'd say that?

Hi John.

Posted by: 914efi Mar 3 2005, 05:09 PM

I have this leak also. You can support the engine, remove the front mount and sheetmetal and run the engine while observing to determine where the leak is coming from(remove the fan pulley also). You can replace the countershaft cover seal at his point if it needs it. I assume you can also replace the seal on the crank, but I did not attempt once I could see that the oil was coming from around the bearing and not the seal.

I have tried many things to fix, but the most successful was sealing the front motor mount to the engine and putting a drain in the bottom. I then collect the oil in a section of hose with a plug that I can remove to drain it. The oil still gets through the top of the engine area, but I don't feel like tearing it apart to fix this.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Mar 3 2005, 06:32 PM

if it's any consolation, LB, the 911 leaks there too, and the engine will be getting a total rehab RSN...

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 3 2005, 07:14 PM

Well, Capt'n, some folks run a bead of case sealer around the
Bearing *away* from the the O ring....pick a guru, cause there's conflicting advice. I chose not to & slathered silicome grease all over and it leaks. Same with the verticle chain case
gasket. No gasket sealent and one leaks, the other don't.
Shit happens, eh?