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Posted by: pete000 Dec 4 2014, 10:55 PM

I would think if it was a factory M471 optioned car the COA would have listed it?

Nice color ! Hope he gets his asking price...

Vin is not in the data base that I see?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/126218907@N06/sets/72157649298414942/

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/841373-fs-1970-914-6-gt.html

Posted by: Larmo63 Dec 4 2014, 11:14 PM

"Believed to be" is not believable. I think it would have been stated it on the COA too.

Posted by: Gustl Dec 4 2014, 11:28 PM

this car is definitly not a factory built M471 car
this one has #1376 which means it was built somewhen about 04/1970
the factory built M471 cars started in 02/1971 +/-

Posted by: Alphaogre Dec 4 2014, 11:48 PM

What drivers eat is that?

Posted by: Kaeferfreund Dec 5 2014, 01:56 AM

Hi Pete,

if you want to learn more about the car, you find a more detailed discussion right here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=236540

I would agree to Gustl. Also from my side of view it's not a factory M 471.

BR
Kaeferfreund

Posted by: boxsterfan Dec 5 2014, 06:21 AM

In the discussion thread from before on this car, we never got the serial# or any type#'s off of the motor.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 5 2014, 08:10 AM

I agree re the M471 being a factory build - if anything it looks possible the selling dealer could have installed the kit. Despite not having the original engine case this is a very nice car. It is a true Six and a beautiful optioned car. I have always love Adriatic Blue and you don't see it that often. If I had the cash I would love to have this car too. It will be interesting to see how high this price climbs. GLWTS.

Posted by: Michael N Dec 5 2014, 10:03 AM

Love the color and the car. That would look good in my garage next to my white car. I sure wish Kathy would let me sell her BB for something like this....I would flog the hell out of it.

Posted by: DEC Dec 5 2014, 10:15 AM

if this one would be real M471 it would have the correct front and rear valances

Posted by: Kansas 914 Dec 5 2014, 10:26 AM

Posted by: Mueller Dec 5 2014, 11:48 AM

the new white license plate has to go!


Otherwise nice car...no idea about the M471 thing...don't know and don't care...sorry
hopefully new owner can source an old plate for it!

Posted by: pete000 Dec 5 2014, 03:30 PM

Some one should post the VIN to the data base !


9140431367

Posted by: gms Dec 5 2014, 04:33 PM

well it isn't on the list and the COA doesn't list it...so no

Posted by: oldschool Dec 5 2014, 11:10 PM

I have the same seat on my car paid $15 and G&R

Posted by: championgt1 Dec 5 2014, 11:25 PM

If it was a real documented M471 I think the asking price would be north of 85K.

Posted by: carr914 Dec 6 2014, 05:55 AM

Yeah, Well North of a $100k

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 6 2014, 08:01 AM

It is a flared six. It is not an M471 car. All of them had front and rear sway bars, and this car is missing the rear bar.

Posted by: larryM Dec 6 2014, 10:50 PM

"this discussion never ends!

"471" option was just a list of parts - could be built by anyone with the money

- it was all about fooling the FIA into homologating the model for WMC racing

search for and download this

SporttechnischerLeitfaden Comp'nPartsList - get English version here NOW - "Information regarding Porsche Vehicles Used for sports Purposes 911 S-914/6 from model 1970"; (print number 4890.20-200-03-72), 45 pages, , inclusive of racing car for GT-group 3 and group 4, 2nd edn
http://early911nzdownloads.yolasite.com/resources/2nd%20edition%20to%201972.pdf

then, build your own - any way you like it - as long as you start with a genuine sixer serial number - 4cyl conversions don't qualify

see this - (among multiple other debates about the 471 cars)

"The factory had made a bunch of "m471 kits" to change over a 914/6 to a GT. These kits were around for a few years and racers snapped them up to build GT clone cars."
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/index.php?t90377.html


there are a lot of different opinions about whether the factory made and/or documented any of the said optioned cars

- for the most part, they did not document them, for reasons well discussed in other places & books;

so COAs are somewhat irrelevant, (and recently reported to be less than accurate by more than a few owners of many Porsche models) - "documented" is a non-issue


also see this http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-914-914-6-technical-forum/784057-so-does-anyone-have-914-6-s-motor-laying-around.html

Brian Long wrote:

- "... there was a competition version available - the 914/6 GT, homologated in March 1970 .."

- Chapter Five - Motorsport " The 914/6 GT ... was nothing more than a standard 914/6 fitted with the optional R-package"

- " in addition to the works vehicles (12), a large number of cars were converted to GT specifications for customers, either by the factory or by privateers from Porsche supplied parts.

- " the 914/6 GT came in three versions: a customer car for competition/fast roadwork, a track racer developing 220bhp, and a rally model with around 160bhp at the wheels." ... " a 100 litre fuel tank was added on the racer..."

Brett Johnson writes:

- "While there was only one body style, a number of engine types combined with varying trim combinations make restoration of the 914 or 914/6 a bit confusing"

more here - 914World.com - The fastest growing online 914 community!

FIA WMC homologation dictated "one" GT engine that we tend to think "is the only one",

but the rest of european rallye & hillclimb & slalom competitions took many forms and each dictated different torque & HP curves

but as you are learning - a lot of us guys each only have certain snippets of the whole story - and i doubt that anyone is still alive who was employed at Werks1 who actually knows it all & could tell it to us in English

- anybody up for a trip to Stuttgart?

the value of the '70-'71 GT cars as racers was simply in their competitive "2-liter Spezial GT Klasse" advantage -

and as DD points out - every one was a different flavor, pieces selected from the "R" parts list for specific competition purposes, and fitted specifically to their team drivers"

also check out this opinion http://www.maxted-page.com/cars/car-details.aspx?id=236

,

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 7 2014, 11:52 AM

It sounds like you are saying that the M471 option and the 914-6 GT were synonymous? I don't think that's correct... What you said was indeed true for the GT, but I believe that the M471 option was not that. Check the German documentation that Andy posted earlier in the thread.

--DD

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 7 2014, 01:22 PM

To quote myself:

Posted by: RobW Dec 7 2014, 01:28 PM

Sure..... now your going to tell me that they built a steel roofed 914 with steel flares and calledit a 916!

Posted by: larryM Dec 9 2014, 09:30 PM

i stand corrected

- i had never seen Jeff's 1971 m471 dealer option document(s) before - one of these applies to 1972 model year cars

- the other March 1971 scan portion applies to “Competition Option Group 471” for models 914014 and-019 - whatever they are


fascinating -

after checking all the linked threads, it seems there is still no agreement among thee cognoscenti

- nor among the literary gurus who wrote all the "definitive" books & magazine articles since then

I'll take some solace in that my car was "documented" by its German TUV Kraftfahrzeugbrief (date May 1972 which specifically refernces the flares, etc "per letter from manufacturer"; (7x15 alloys were installed and TUV approved at an earlier pre-'72 date))

- no aftermarket chinese stuff, thank you

good thing we have Andy as the real German source on this stuff !!


I'll say again - just build your own - the 1971 parts list is clear, and so far as i can discern there was no cutoff date as to when a 471 must be built

- OP asked if it was "real" - if it has the required option parts, the answer is "yes"


... so it goes

Posted by: pete000 Dec 9 2014, 11:27 PM

It seems there were 914s built at the factory and shipped with the M471 options installed (labeled by many as Real M471 cars) and there were 914s retrofitted with the M471 optional parts by dealers and shops post delivery (labeled Kits)

I agree, no big difference other than one was built and shipped as a M471 optioned 914 and one was converted by shops and dealers

My car has factory steel fenders and Fuchs with spacers. They were installed in CA back in the day. I would guess I can call my car a M471 Kit conversion

I would call it "Real" M471 optional parts.

Now the infamous 914-6 GT is another story....

IMHO

Posted by: larryM Dec 11 2014, 07:23 PM

can we say that 471 cars all had rear anti-roll bars?

- the Dealer KIT m71 was after all, basically a street car with "a competition look" - that 3-option list did not mention any anti-roll bar options

Gusti wrote in 2005 on 914club.com: ? 914-6 with OEM sway bars factory installed?
“sway bars were a factory option (M404)” and the Johnson book doesn't say anything about antiroll bars at the M471, but DGVWPB says that antiroll bars (front and rear together) were optional at the M471 - then I reviewed my prize lists (1970 & 1971) - there were no antiroll bars available at the standard /6 - so it's very likely that the M404 option was available later (at least from 1973 on)

– imho we cannot say definitively that all "471" cars had sway bars and use that as a criterion for validating the 471 pedigree of any given -6 car that comes on the market

Cafe Racers, maybe.............

.






















.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 11 2014, 07:58 PM

No. They were optional equipment and not part of the basic m471 package. See the scan of the document i posted.

Posted by: larryM Dec 11 2014, 08:07 PM

let's all get on the same "originality" page about 471's & GT's

- get your English version here NOW -
http://early911nzdownloads.yolasite.com/resources/2nd%20edition%20to%201972.pdf

"Information regarding Porsche Vehicles Used for sports Purposes 911 S-914/6 from model 1970"; (print number 4890.20-200-03-72), 45 pages, , inclusive of racing car for GT-group 3 and group 4, 2nd edn 1972 (a.k.a. SporttechnischerLeitfaden or CompetitionPartsList 0)

a Dealer KIT "m471 option" on a stock 914-6 (specifically for Models 914014 and 914019 .. whatever those were?) - was a totally different animal from any of the many variants of the referenced "Competition Option Group 471" – a.k.a. GT - which were built selectively to order or preference from the SporttechnischerLeitfaden or the earlier Ersatzteilliste (Spare Parts List) for 914-6, Competition Type, dated Mar 1970, 6024.14

maybe we can get Andy to put that link up as a sticky?

none of these 3 lists ever mention or reference "471" or "m471" - (i have all 3) -

Germany 914 Club e.V. once had a list of all the various options cars they could identify, as of 2006 "AUFLISTUNG DER 914-6 "SPORT-KIT"

- I have it in pdf but the old link is no longer any good and i can't turn it up in Google - if Andy can turn it into an html document sticky that would be another good reference every time we start an "is it real" argument (and maybe quit beating each other up over it)

and whoever has it - i'd sure like to see that entire 1971 Dealer Bulletin 71/79 that is referenced in the partially scanned page that Bowlsby originally posted on another link

.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 11 2014, 11:25 PM

If you still have the old address for the document, you might be able to go to http://www.archive.org and pull up a saved copy of it...

--DD

Posted by: SixerJ Dec 12 2014, 04:44 AM

While sort of on the subject of M471's & GTs. pdf copy of GT Parts Manual can be found via the link for those that want a copy (1st time I have used the dropbox public link function so hopefully it works)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwa7vizbx3vmyuk/914-6%20GT%20Spare%20Parts%20List.pdf?dl=0

I agree it would be really great if we could collate all the documentation into a sticky with links to form an archive, Armano's site is a superb resource in many ways but the documentation section is not in a very useable format i.e. pdf for multipage manuals

If anyone wants the parts list in excel I have that also, I'd just need to clean it up a bit 1st as I'm using it for my project