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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Cant loosen valve
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 18 2014, 07:57 PM
We, walterolin and I, were trying to adjust the valve on my newly rebuilt engine tonight and we couldnt get the intake valve on #1 to loosen. We found TDC, 0 mark on the fan and #1 exhaust valve adjusted just fine. The problem is that I loosened the screw completely on the intake valve and I still could not get the feeler gage in there and it wouldnt budge (slightly rattle) when we tried to shake it by hand. Its REALLY tight.
After that we turned the engine so that the valve was for sure all the way open, and nothing. The screw is all the way backed out and its completely tight no matter what position it is in.
What could cause this? My engine builder told me that he adjusted all of them to .006, so it obviously was correct at some point.
At a loss here..
THanks
Posted by: barefoot Dec 18 2014, 08:22 PM
We, walterolin and I, were trying to adjust the valve on my newly rebuilt engine tonight and we couldnt get the intake valve on #1 to loosen. We found TDC, 0 mark on the fan and #1 exhaust valve adjusted just fine. The problem is that I loosened the screw completely on the intake valve and I still could not get the feeler gage in there and it wouldnt budge (slightly rattle) when we tried to shake it by hand. Its REALLY tight.
After that we turned the engine so that the valve was for sure all the way open, and nothing. The screw is all the way backed out and its completely tight no matter what position it is in.
What could cause this? My engine builder told me that he adjusted all of them to .006, so it obviously was correct at some point.
At a loss here..
THanks
without more info on what happened since builder did adjustment, is there any way that the pushrod could have dislodged from it's seated position in the lifter ??
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 18 2014, 08:31 PM
Nothing has happened. He adjusted, gave engine to me, and I put it back in car.
We thought about the pushrod coming disloged and took the rocker off to check.
Posted by: r_towle Dec 18 2014, 08:50 PM
Put it at BDC and see if you can move the valve up and down.
A bit of leverage, you can move the valve....the springs are not that tough.
Posted by: messix Dec 18 2014, 10:03 PM
I would try to turn the engine over 360* while observing that valve.
sounds like you are looking at the dizzy being 180 off.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Dec 18 2014, 10:32 PM
Sounds even more like you need to use my method, which doesn't require you to do anything other than turn the engine over and watch the valves before making any adjustments. Look in the classic threads.
The Cap'n
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 19 2014, 07:35 AM
I know for a fact that the distributor mark is off, but we did find the 0 mark on the fan and my previous TDC mark on the flywheel.
We turned the engine so that the valve was all the way open, the screw was all the way backed out, but it was still completely tight. Will moving the engine 180 matter at this point?
We are going to study up on the Krusty method and apply it this weekend, but Im not sure if that even comes into play yet..
Posted by: pilothyer Dec 19 2014, 08:10 AM
I know for a fact that the distributor mark is off, but we did find the 0 mark on the fan and my previous TDC mark on the flywheel.
We turned the engine so that the valve was all the way open, the screw was all the way backed out, but it was still completely tight. Will moving the engine 180 matter at this point?
We are going to study up on the Krusty method and apply it this weekend, but Im not sure if that even comes into play yet..
Turn it so the valve is closed.
Posted by: brant Dec 19 2014, 08:33 AM
Are you at tdc for #3?
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 19 2014, 08:38 AM
I'm thinking that may be the issue now. Im going to spin the fan 360 back to the TDC mark and see if that makes a difference.
Are you at tdc for #3?
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 19 2014, 10:19 AM
If that doesn't work, keep in mind that people swap out fans and some folks here have reported fans where the marks were wrong or flat out missing.
If this is the case, revert to the Capn's method. You don't even need to find TDC using the fan or distributor. Simply rotate the engine till one bank is showing three valves closed (one exhaust and two intakes - rockers will be "rocking") and one valve on the opposite bank is open. This is one TDC. Then if you rotate the engine 360 degrees around, the other bank should then have three valves closed and the opposite bank has one open. This is the other TDC.
Posted by: rjames Dec 19 2014, 10:29 AM
Use Krusty's method for sure. Curious also if you have hydraulic lifters. I could imagine the following circumstances causing what you're seeing :
The valve in question being open, a hydro lifter fully pumped up to maximum lift and the pushrod not being centered on the lifter.
Posted by: stugray Dec 19 2014, 10:53 AM
Most of the times I hear that people cannot find TDC, it is because they are struggling just to turn the engine.
Put the rear on jackstands ( or one jackstand and one ramp).
Block one wheel so it cannot turn.
Pull the spark plugs
Put the car in 5th gear turn the wheel and the engine will turn "almost effortlessly".
Now get under the car and watch as someone else turns the engine for you.
After about three complete turns without struggling, you will understand how the valves work.
In fact using this method, you can find TDC#1 quite accurately without any marks.
But you have to watch it go around a few times before you have that moment where it makes perfect sense.
Posted by: OU8AVW Dec 19 2014, 08:11 PM
Swivel foot adjusters?
I had to shim my rockers to allow the screws to have more adjustments out. Otherwise the swivel feet got stuck against the rocker.
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 22 2014, 07:59 AM
Got this one sorted out. In a fit of desperation, I took the rockers off, pulled the pushrods out and put everything back on, then it was OK. We then used the Krusty method to adjust the valves and TDC appears to be 90 degrees off.
Some help here: If the car is truly at TDC for piston 1, both valves will be closed (ie both pushrods will be all the way in and not extended)?
Attached is an image down the pushrod tube BEFORE I removed everything which fixed the issue.
Posted by: SLITS Dec 22 2014, 08:09 AM
Some help here: If the car is truly at TDC for piston 1, both valves will be closed (ie both pushrods will be all the way in and not extended)?
True ....
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 22 2014, 08:17 AM
As I said, if you're using the fan or distributor to determine TDC, keep in mind that dizzys can be reclocked a and the fan maybe have been disassembled by someone previously and put back wrong.
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 22 2014, 08:40 AM
I saw your post, thanks, and thats one reason that we confirmed with the Krusty method. The fan, (and my previous mark on the underside of the flywheel), seems to be correct with the #1 valve positions (confirmed by SLITS above), but the dizzy is now exactly 90 degress off from its TDC mark. Knowing this, we can now proceed.
As I said, if you're using the fan or distributor to determine TDC, keep in mind that dizzys can be reclocked a and the fan maybe have been disassembled by someone previously and put back wrong.
Posted by: Steve Pratel Dec 22 2014, 09:06 AM
Having just finished this is fresh in my head.
Dont worry about marks, they are irrelevant until confirmed go off the #1 cyl at its top of travel (TDC) and note the position of the rotor.
Imagine the distributor ROTOR is a clock hand. When at TRUE TDC, the rotor (firing end w/metal) will face at what we call 1200 (though when facing the motor from the rear of the car it will likely be more like 200 with a Bosch dizzy or if you are running a Pertronix billet like I am, will be at 1100).
At TRUE TDC the #1 piston is at the top of its travel and both valves are closed, meaning there is no pressure on the lifter/pushrod/rocker assembly. Once you break loose the locking nut you should be able to back out the adjuster.
The ONLY other time the #1 CYL is at the top is when the rotor is 180degrees out and it will be facing 600. The piston may be at TOP, but one of the cam l
If you are truly at TDC and still cant back out the adjuster, just unbolt the whole rocker assembly for inspection. It really is easy.... If you are at true TDC, you may have a stripped/galled adjuster or your friendly mechanic used something like JB weld or super hard threadlocker when he put in the adjuster (this happened to me once)
My guess is you are 180 out, and likely it is the distributor pinion. IF this is the case, you will need to take out the distributor, AND the drive pinion, and realign them. Find your TDC/#1 mark on the distributor, turn the rotor to that mark, then align the drive (only ONE way for this to go together, and re-install. Will take some giggling and possible rocking of motor).
This is a job you need a second set of hand/eyes for. You said this is a NEW/rebuilt motor? Where is the mechanic on this?
Posted by: JStroud Dec 22 2014, 09:06 AM
I'm confused, how freshly rebuilt is this motor, I'm just wondering why you are doing all this, seems like the motor or something was setup wrong, why not take it back to the engine builder to make it right. 
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 22 2014, 11:53 AM
To clarify, the valves have been adjusted. I think the pushrod was not set in the lifter or something because taking the assembly off and putting it back on gave me plenty of play to do the adjustment.
We know the dizzy is 90 degrees off, we found TDC, the builder is coming over this weekend.
Thanks all
Posted by: r_towle Dec 22 2014, 12:14 PM
make sure after you adjust each valve that you can still turn the push rod by hand..
there is enough room to get your finder in there and spin the pushrod.
This will tell you if it is seated properly.
Sounds like that was your issue.
rich
Posted by: Steve Pratel Dec 22 2014, 03:28 PM
FWIW, if the 'builder' made such a mistake as not aligning the pushrod and diddnt catch it before he delivered it to you, AND set TDC 90% off, I wouldnt let that guy near my motor again.....
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 22 2014, 09:16 PM
That's a good find, and it does happen, but as Steve says, if the motor was out, he should have caught it before sending it back to you. Also, the dizzy being 90 degrees off is very common, especially if you're using an aftermarket distributor. I know that the SVDA on my car is not clocked the same way as the factory dizzy, so my plug wires all are reordered to match the true TDC. Good job on getting it figured out!
The only other thing I can recommend is be SURE that you have the pushrod rube retaining wire seated correctly. It's almost impossible to see if it's in correctly without a mirror and if it's rubbing on a pushrod, it'll eat a grove into it VERY quickly - ask me how I know.
Posted by: ericoneal Dec 23 2014, 12:15 PM
Thanks. He did adjust the valves before giving it back to me, but I wanted to adjust them to be sure which is how I found the problem. If it really was an unseated pushrod, which Im not 100% sure of, maybe it happened in transport? Seems like a long shot.
I made sure to check the retaining wire, it is good.
Also, pretty sure my dizzy is not stock since the previous owner megasquirted the car, which may be why he set it off. That should be an easy fix now.
Posted by: r_towle Dec 23 2014, 03:15 PM
Thanks. He did adjust the valves before giving it back to me, but I wanted to adjust them to be sure which is how I found the problem. If it really was an unseated pushrod, which Im not 100% sure of, maybe it happened in transport? Seems like a long shot.
I made sure to check the retaining wire, it is good.
Also, pretty sure my dizzy is not stock since the previous owner megasquirted the car, which may be why he set it off. That should be an easy fix now.
it did not fall out of the lifter in transport.
Its a good 1/4 inch difference.
It was put in wrong, adjusted wrong.
rich
Posted by: stugray Dec 23 2014, 07:54 PM
The most logical answer is that the mechanic set the valves, realized he forgot the retainer spring, took the rockers off to install the spring, then put the rockers back on (with one "dropped" pushrod) then chose to not recheck the valve clearance.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Dec 23 2014, 08:00 PM
Excuse me, but why would you ever remove the rocker assemblies in order to install the pr tube retaining spring?
The Cap'n
Posted by: HAM Inc Dec 23 2014, 08:59 PM
Excuse me, but why would you ever remove the rocker assemblies in order to install the pr tube retaining spring?
The Cap'n
Yep. That's just bass ackwards.
I'm not even sure how you would put the wire in before the rockers.
Happy Festivus!
Posted by: stugray Dec 24 2014, 12:30 PM
Excuse me, but why would you ever remove the rocker assemblies in order to install the pr tube retaining spring?
The Cap'n
Yep. That's just bass ackwards.
I'm not even sure how you would put the wire in before the rockers.
Happy Festivus!
At least the last couple of times I have done it, I put the spring under the pushrods then as you put the rockers on, you put the tabs on the spring in the slots on the rocker bases.
Then I tightened the rockers down, then pulled the pushrod retention tabs up into place with a dental hook.
When I didnt put the spring in before the rockers, it seemed like you would need to bend the spring to get it down far enough and in the slots on the rocker bases.
It also holds the pushrods up so they align with the rocker caps easier.
But I guess there is wrong way to do it so I'll stop doing that.....
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