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Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 09:09 AM

This is the extent of the rust that I have found on the car so far....and I have looked quite hard. Have not removed the rockers because they are still held on with the original rivets. I did loosen the bottom screws, however and bang on the rockers knocking quite a bit of dust out...not rust or scale. Then I used a scope to go in through the rear wheel well to see what lurked behind the rocker. Looks very clean...dirty and a bit of what may be some slight surface rust but red painted surface in most areas I can observe.

So...what should I do, if anything about the rust in the pics? I will say the car will not be getting wet so I'm tempted to leave as is. Trying to keep the car as is to the extent possible. Can I safely leave these spots or do I need to repair. If repair? What is the best way to do it? Thanks.

Wow. Thanks for the guidance on the posts, guys. Simple once you know how. I added a few additional pics of the jack post areas. I'll continue to contemplate taking the rockers off but given what I see, I'm more likely to leave them as is. Not concerned about rust underneath. May even take a video and post what I see in there with the scope.




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Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 09:15 AM

Can't see the pictures. However, you can't fully evaluate the rust on these cars without removing the rocker covers. So step 1 is to take them off. If there is rust on the longitudinal or jack post supports, hardly at all, then it likely goes deeper. Post some pictures of the longitudinals and I am sure everyone here will steer you to the next step.

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 09:19 AM

Thanks Steve, as a newbie can you tell me how I can past pics directly into a post without using a link?

Posted by: 76-914 Jan 21 2015, 09:34 AM

Click on the "Help" button, upper right hand side of the page. Then look under posting. Several bits of info there on adding items to one's post.

Posted by: bandjoey Jan 21 2015, 09:39 AM

Click on full edit of your post. Bottom left side is 'choose a file'. Pulls them from your phone or computer. Wallaaaah!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 21 2015, 09:40 AM

Here's the how-to:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=13637

--DD

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 09:58 AM

In the lower part of the screen that you use to type your post you'll see the - Choose file - button.

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 11:17 AM

The pictures look promising. Fairly clean. But the rust on the exterior isn't your primary enemy. It's the rust underneath that matters most. You won't know what you have without removing the rocker covers. It's 3 screws and 6 rivits, IIRC. I have bought a couple cars that looked just like yours. And once the rocker covers were removed there was rust. Minor. But there. I'm glad I caught it before it festered into a major problem.

Posted by: Tom_T Jan 21 2015, 11:22 AM

Back to rust -

Before you take off the rockers - & I understand why you're hesitant to do so - go borrow one of those fiber-optic snake-cameras or buy one from Harbor Freight etc. & stick it down the holes into the longs behind the firewall @ L & R sides of the low-point on the engine shelf.

You can also take off the lower cheesehead screws on the rockers (Liquid Wrench on them, soak, repeat, try & repeat again if necessary - they will be stiff), & then carefully open them a bit without bending the rocker metal, in order to see a bit of the bottom of the longs under the rockers' return "ell" at the underside.

Hopefully that all checks out clean, but if not & you see rust, you'll need a longer snake-cam to go deeper inside the longs & also to remove the rockers.

In any case, plan on fixing the rust areas & touching up now, before they spread!

Your one pic of the underside at the rockers/Longs looks like you may have some rust issues up inside there.


^ That looks like rust between the seams of the welded floor pan & longitudenal pieces .... maybe??


Tom
///////

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 11:22 AM

Thanks, Steve. I'm going to stay the course for now and leave the rockers on. I do have a boroscope and will poke around with that a bit more to see what I can see. I understand the fear of what lurks behind those rockers but I'm an observing, trusting patient sort of guy and tend to go with my gut based upon my insepctions. Everything about this car tells me that its clean under those rockers. May try to get a video with the scope that I can share also. I'll let you know if I ever get solid evidence otherwise. Then you can be the first to issue me the "I told you so"!

Posted by: Tom_T Jan 21 2015, 11:41 AM

It's actually what you'll see INSIDE the longs with your Boroscope (I had a brain-fart & said snake-cam) that is of greater concern anyway.

Repair or replace that battery tray, then use an Optinal or other AGM or a drycell (Summit Racing has them, I don't recall name) + an absorbing anti-acid pad on the repaired part.

The lower door jamb corner could go deeper, since they filled many voids in 914s with foam stuff that absorbs water then rust other spots from the inside out, so definitely get that one & any other similar "bubbles" & spots checked out by a body guy - or you probe it if you'll be doing your own work - to see the true extent of what lies below.

It's rarely limited to what you see on the surface - spreads beyond from the inside-out, & it keeps recurring, & it started very early on these & other early Porsches which were not hot-dipped nor rust-proofed/treated in ANY way.

Also remove your steering rack cover & look carefully at all spots around up in there, cuz both road crud/wet gets up in there - plus the window washer bottle & lines & the brake MC & reservoir are up above & can leak down into the cavities & slowly rust thru. I speak from experience!

I got mine 38 months old with rust spots already - which the OO-PO had had fixed before too while under warranty, then I had fixed it in my 76 repaint & again in the 80-83 rolling resto .... & it's festered & come back again while stored in my "dry SoCal" garage since 85!!!!

Best to NOT assume nor trust your gut!

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 12:11 PM

Thanks. I'll check behind the steering rack cover also when I can get a few minutes. Will likely be next week since I'm booked the rest of the week.

Steve

Posted by: brant Jan 21 2015, 12:30 PM

Pull the rockers
It's a part of the required maintenance

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 21 2015, 01:57 PM

At the very least, remove the screws on the bottom and swing them up and out a bit. You'll be distressed at the amount of dirt and crud that falls out. Then take a look at the rockers that had been covered by the covers. If you don't find holes, consider yourself fortunate.

--DD

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 02:24 PM

Thanks, I already did that. Did find quite a bit if fine gray dust but no rust scale. Also looked as best I could underneath and by pulling out the covers and using a flashlight. Looks like solid longs with red paint still covering them. As mentioned, I still plan to use a scope to video or take pics but looks pretty good.

Posted by: brant Jan 21 2015, 06:12 PM

pull them anyways.
you can buy rivets

I tell everyone... never, ever, ever... buy a 914 without pulling the rockers
If I look at a car with original rivets it is concerning to me
pull them, its a maintenance item

Posted by: 1972 914 2.0 Jan 21 2015, 06:49 PM

Even though you probably already have, make sure to take the back wheels off and get you head inside the wheel well and look with a flash light along the backside of the door all the way up to the top of the sail panel.
I found some there on my advertised "Rust Free" '72,,,,

Cheers

Posted by: Garold Shaffer Jan 21 2015, 06:55 PM

10000000%

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 07:08 PM

I see your
And I raise you 100000000%

I promised my wife a while back that I will never buy another 914 without removing the rocker covers. And she holds me to it.

Posted by: boxsterfan Jan 21 2015, 07:15 PM

The rust spot in the door jam area (first pic) is indicative that there is plenty of rust underneath. Car looks like it was painted at some point. Probably a previous owner got rid of all the rust they could see on the outside and repainted. Problem is that these cars rust from the inside out.

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 07:37 PM

Thanks, but no repaint. This is a one owner car. Documented mileage and history. I've spoken with the original owner several times and he has written a summary of his ownership for my documentation of the car. Sorry but I'm gonna disagree on the comment that the rust spot is indicative that there is plenty of rust underneath. Its not perfect...but its closer than you might think. Thanks.

Posted by: Larmo63 Jan 21 2015, 07:48 PM

I would pull the rocker covers too. There are plenty of choices in rivets that you can use to put them back on. It's a 10 minute job. (per side) Peace of mind, IMHO

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 07:59 PM

Damn you guys are a tough crowd!! Where's the faith? lol. You know, I'm getting tempted to drop a rocker panel just to settle the score and solve the intrigue that so many of you have. Seriously, I do appreciate the sincere comments of those who are concerned that I do what's right to take care of the car. Thanks. Not convinced I'm going to drop them yet but you can be sure that all of you will be the first to know if I do! I know that it is what I should do. I hear ya. I think what I'll do is scope the longs with a camera. As you all have said, these rust from the inside out. I'll share the video of the scope and then decide from there if I take the rockers off. Gonna need to do that next week though since I'll be busy this weekend.

Thanks agin for all of the good input.

Posted by: PanelBilly Jan 21 2015, 08:03 PM

This spot also concerns me. That little dot is not an easy fix if it's rusted through.

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 08:13 PM

No worries. This has been an interesting conversation. But if I'm gonna print the shirt, I have to walk the walk. :-) If you want to drop the rocker covers by Super Bowl Sunday (when the shirt group buy ends) I'll send you a free - Save the 914 - shirt. You won't regret being safe.

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 08:14 PM

Duplicate post.

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 08:14 PM

Duplicate post.

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 08:19 PM

Thanks Billy. Its definitely solid. I poked around on the spot. Won't truly know how bad though till I have someone take a look at it.

Looked further into the hell hole and the left front side of the engine compartment today also. Hell hole is very clean. Left side even cleaner. Very little surface rust but mostly solid painted surface. If I can get a pic with the scope i'll share that also.

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 08:36 PM

Interesting offer Steve. Thanks. I already ordered a shirt but I like the offer! Ok, so I'll think about that over the weekend. Just in case I decide to do it, what is the best way to do it? I assume you need to drill out the rivets. Can someone tell me what size bit and if there are any tricks to this? Also does anyone know where I can get replacement rivets?

Posted by: stevegm Jan 21 2015, 08:50 PM

The three flathead screws on the bottom are usually hard to loosen. I use vice grips to get them lose initially. The rivets are easy. Not sure on the size bit. But someone will chime in here. 914rubber.com should have the rivets. Don't forget the two bolts (one in the front and one in the rear) holding the rocker cover to the fender and quarter panel. I want to say it is 10 mm.

Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2015, 09:06 PM

Thanks, Steve. I've had the bottom screws off and allowed the dust to clear out behind the rockers. No sign of rust in the residue that fell out. I ordered the rivets from 914 rubber...just in case....I decide to do it. : )

If anyone knows what bit size to use, please let me know.

Officially taking wagers on what I find behind those rockers. For all of you who envisioned the worst behind them, step up now. Lets make a wager on what lurks behind the one owner survivor rockers! This could be fun...or depressing...or both.

Posted by: boxsterfan Jan 21 2015, 09:46 PM

If the bottom 3 screws came out on both rockers, that is a good sign. On my car, the passenger side rear bottom screw broke off. My longs look good on the outside, but given that screw breaking off on the passenger side, I know there is rust in them there longs.

You can have a look at my "no rust" 1974 here:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=227937&hl=

There are some more close-ups of my passenger jack plate area later in that thread. Again, my car looks pretty good, but I know there is rust up in those longs. My car is no where near "terminal" with the rust cancer like so many 914's (and I doubt yours is either), but all of them have various levels of rust in those longs unless the car has been disassembled, cut, rust-proofed (via various methods and techniques), painted and then hidden from water sources.

All that being said, man these cars are fun to drive.

Posted by: astronomerdave Sep 10 2015, 01:15 PM

Wow, I just read this thread with great interest. It was very engaging, the mystery, the wager, ... I couldn't wait to see how it ended. And then it just ended. What happened? What did it look like? Who won the bet?

Anyway, I've not done it before but if I pull my rockers am I going to have access to the heater duct?

Posted by: astronomerdave Sep 10 2015, 01:32 PM

Looks like from pictures in this thread, http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=227937&hl= I have my answer, and that seems to be "no" there is not access to the heater duct. How would I access the heater duct if I suspect that it is broken in between the two ends?

Posted by: zambezi Sep 10 2015, 01:32 PM

Hopefully not.

Posted by: zambezi Sep 10 2015, 01:33 PM

to access the heater duct you must cut open the longitudinal. Be sure to brace the door opening if going in that deep.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 04:10 PM

Yes, there was quite a discussion here. In the end, as I did more cleaning of the car and got input from others who know the cars very well, they all told me not to bother with pulling the rocker covers. I'm fortunate that this car is just super clean Hard to understand until you actually see it. I did take a camera scope to the inside of the longs and while they are dusty/dirty you can see pretty clearly that they are not rusted. I'm a fiend for originality so did not want to remove the original rivets unless there was good reason to.

Sooo....we didn't get to complete the wagers.

Posted by: boxsterfan Sep 10 2015, 06:39 PM

How's your channels under the front hood (take out or pull back the rubber)?

How about under the bumpers?

The pics you have posted look good although I am not sure how you are going to repair the rust spot in the door frame area you posted. I guess there is always bondo but that makes you a DAPO if you ever sell the car.

Some more pics of your car would be cool though. Always love to look at other people's cars and the things that have been done (or not done) to them.

Posted by: r_towle Sep 10 2015, 06:46 PM

Rust is a good reason and you do have it under those rocker covers.
The rivets are available from several guys here, just ask around.
It's not a bet, you do have rust, you can see it in those pictures.

Posted by: billh1963 Sep 10 2015, 08:00 PM

Doubt the rockers will get pulled. It's called "plausible deniability"

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 08:36 PM

As stated before...you guys are a tough crowd. Understand and respect your opinion even if it is based upon an error in judgment

Seriously, of course these cars all have some level of rust. I'm sure there is some surface rust under there...there is bound to be on a 48 year old car...especially a 914. What I'm saying is I am 95% confident that there is no rust of concern under the rockers and therefore have not interest in removing the original rivets. Are you 95% confident that there is? If so, you bring me back to that damn wager.

I'm happy to remove a rocker if someone wants to take a good natured wager but you need put some skin in the game. Say $750 wagered for producing pics of the long....hell, maybe even a video as I take it off. You pick the one long to be revealed. We take pics and let the good folks of the World decide who wins the wager. (Wish I could make it to Octeenerfest...we could do the reveal there). Sounds fun right? Any takers? Winner of the wager agrees to donate the $ to a good cause decided once again by a vote of the World members.

Posted by: Ferg Sep 10 2015, 08:42 PM

So how will you address the rust without removal of the rockers? Its obviously exposed to air and hummidity. I know i would want to tackle it now vs later.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 08:46 PM

Thanks, Boxsterfan. There are a lot of pics in my thread that I started a while back. As stated in that thread happy to share more pics of specific areas if interested. I love looking at others cars also.

The rust spot in the door has already been repaired. It looked much worse in the pics but was really a very superficial bubble that came from underneath the paint...looked like the paint cracked at the seam and water got underneath. Sanded down to bare metal, primed and touched up. I have a pic of the repair somewhere but would need to find it.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 08:54 PM

I have several survivor cars Ferg and there is surface rust to some degree on all of them...actually the best of them is the 914. Once you start repainting, repairing...well of course they aren't survivors any more. My approach with all of them is to get them detailed. I use cleaners and water in that process. After that my cars rarely see water...I don't even wash them except maybe once every couple of years. Just use a spray detailer to keep them in the condition they need to be. My experience is that if you take good care of them and keep them in good storage, surface rust is not a problem.

I do drive them too...not thousands of miles per year but I put around 1,000 miles per year on each of them.

Posted by: r_towle Sep 10 2015, 08:55 PM

Good luck, enjoy your car.
The next owner will be doomed to fix it.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 08:57 PM

Sounds like you might have $750 to wager? All kidding aside, I'll take that risk. I plan to keep this one and pass on to my kids.

Posted by: r_towle Sep 10 2015, 08:59 PM

I think you may be too scared to look.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 10 2015, 09:10 PM

Just noticed that you are member #124...that's very impressive seeing that I'm in the 17,000's. Not afraid to look...just making my own call based upon how I see it...and have considered all the good comments here. I'm sure you'd make your own call in the end also. Thanks.

Posted by: zambezi Sep 10 2015, 09:17 PM

Why not just undo the bottom screws and flex the covers out enough to stick a digital camera in there with the flash and see what the picture shows. shouldn't take to much room from underneath to prove everyone wrong.

Posted by: boxsterfan Sep 10 2015, 09:25 PM

Where is the link (other thread) to all of your pics?

Also, were you able to take pics with your boroscope? In some ways, I'd like to get an idea of what my car *might* looks like on the longs. I know there is surface rust in there because I have a somewhat minor hellhole problem and I can see minor surface rust on the longs. Here's my thread: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=227937&hl=

Notice the very minor surface rust around the jack plate. There's rust behind there.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 11 2015, 12:41 AM

Here is the link for my thread in the originality forum. Again, not a lot of pics yet on the areas we're talking about here but you can get an idea of the overall condition of the car.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=256832&st=0


I don't have pics with the boroscope but I can certainly try to take some. Car is in storage right now and I'm traveling for the next couple of weeks but will see if I can do that soon.

I remember seeing your thread. Is that original paint under the longs or was it repainted at some point. Very clean.

Posted by: 914Next Sep 11 2015, 12:45 AM

Yeah I may try to do that. I did unbolt the bottom screws to try to clean behind them. The bolts came out fairly easily and I got quite a bit of dust that fell out. No rust scale with the dirt/dust although I did find a bit of rat or mouse poisoning pellets that had been carried behind there and deposited.

Posted by: brettrarnold Sep 14 2015, 11:35 AM

Hey everyone I took off my rocker panels for the first time and noticed pretty bad rust with holes in the frame. Now that i know something needs to be done, I have a few questions.

Do I cut it completely out any rust and weld in support or should I try to salvage it clean and patch?

Also since I am in the process of engine removal, should I get that out before doing frame repair or maybe I might not be able to lift the car up off the engine given the poor frame quality.

-Brett




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Posted by: Jeffs9146 Sep 14 2015, 11:47 AM

Do not try and patch that!

Posted by: brettrarnold Sep 14 2015, 12:04 PM

Ya I was assuming that would be the answer. I guess I should have prefaced my post with I know very little about auto repair in general and this is my first project car so learning curve is HUGE.

Anyway onto the rust. Cut it out and what size do you think I would need to weld back in its place? I suppose it maybe a case by case question and may not be able to be answered without seeing it, but any help would be appreciated.

For the engine, should I try to remove that first?

Posted by: boxsterfan Sep 14 2015, 12:56 PM

Engine out. Then start poking around with a screwdriver as you will find more week spots.

Then go to http://www.restoration-design.com/store/category/914 and start getting some replacememnt metal.

Posted by: brettrarnold Sep 14 2015, 02:12 PM

Thanks and will update when engine is out!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 14 2015, 04:44 PM

Brace the door openings, because it's way too easy to warp the chassis when you're welding on a bunch of metal in an important spot like that.

--DD

Posted by: 76-914 Sep 14 2015, 05:43 PM

Go to page 14, beginning at post number 232. This was quite easy. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=201776&st=220

Posted by: cary Sep 15 2015, 08:39 AM

You have to cut it back until you get to GOOD solid steel. You need to really do your due diligence here. The sheet metal here is 3 layers think in the place your looking at and these cars, for the most part rust from the in side out.
If you don't already have one, you need to get what Scotty affectionately calls the lie detector. A grinder with a braided wire cop brush.



Like Dave said, no cutting until the doors are braced. I'd do both sides for good measure.

When it comes to replacing the steel you have two choices. Make your own, or buy the complete piece from RD and cut out what you need. If you make your own the problem your going to run into here is making the turns and corners. When you stretch it it gets thinner in spots. My .02c for this morning.

Posted by: Claus Graf Sep 15 2015, 10:53 AM

Be afraid, be very afraid of what is underneath.....



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