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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Need rear Bilsteins/springs/adj. perches
Posted by: Series9 Feb 8 2005, 12:02 PM
Hi Guys,
I need to buy a pair of rear Bilsteins with adjustable perches and springs.
1. Who has them and how much?
2. I'd like spring rate advice from experts for my car (914RS).
and, sorry to start another tire poll,
3. I'm on the fence between DOT R compound Kumhos and something else. What do you think? Remember to keep the state of modification of my car in mind when considering your advice.
914RS goes on the road March 1st to start shake-down runs prior to WCC05!
Posted by: joea9146 Feb 8 2005, 12:23 PM
For Shocks try www.shox.com
As far as Tires I would look at the Toyo DOT RA1 tire Competition Radial.
http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/sports_car/ra1.html
If you are going to Track and Autocross the car I would say a 200lb Spring
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 8 2005, 12:28 PM
What are you planning to do with the car?
Auto-X, High Speed Tracks, Street car????
On our TRACK ONLY car (3.2, flares, Turbo Brakes, etc....), we are running with Kuhmos (245/45 R16) on all four corners. 400# rear springs, no sway. 21 or 23mm front torsions and a large front sway bar (can't remember the size).
Our rear Bilstein shocks came from Galen Bieker years ago with 350# Eibach springs, our adjustable spring perches and the 400# rear springs came from HPH.
On the track, our car is very stable and predictable. On the street, however, it is a little firm for a comfortable ride. (It tends to jar your teeth out).
I like the Kuhmos, but I would prefer the CompTA R1's from several years ago (before the "Groove of Doom").
A lot really depends on how you want to use the car.
Disclaimer: This is my OPINION only.
Posted by: Series9 Feb 8 2005, 12:34 PM
914RS will be a 90% street/10% track car.
My front suspension is stock 911S w/Bilstein struts and a stock 914 sway bar. I will be running a rear sway bar because I like what it adds to the predictability of the car's handling at the limit.
The car has a LSD 915 tranny.
Tire sizes: 255/40-17 rears and 225/45-17 fronts.
Alignment: -1.5 rear, -1.0 front and zero toe all around.
Posted by: MattR Feb 8 2005, 12:57 PM
In a car like that, why not go with Koni Yellows?
Posted by: MarkG Feb 8 2005, 03:00 PM
http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/tayco/quote.jsp?clientid=alloem&cookieid=1G20Y1ZJJ1G20Y2ERO&baseurl=http://www.alloemautoparts.com/&partner=tayco&year=1976&product=L4000-10217&application=000125114
has rear Bilsteins for 104.00....got mine last month from here for $99.00 ea.
Posted by: Travis Neff Feb 8 2005, 03:29 PM
I'll hazard a guess on rear springs. All things being equal, and going up in torsion bar size 1mm, stock swaybars front and rear. With a stock setup like that (and stock 914 torsion bars) the general consensus is around 110lb springs - but you go up a notch with the 1mm larger torsion bars.
I'd think somewhere around 140-150lb springs. You also got a bit more weight in the rear. Good thing about doing the adjustable perches, the springs are cheap if you need to do some trial testing.
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 8 2005, 04:46 PM
My advice to you for a nice street car would be :
Front torsion bars -19mm
Rear Springs 150-180# (probably 150 considering you want to run w/ the rear bar)
****{I am thinking though, with the 3.6, you will be able to substantially squat the rear end under heavy acceleration}****
I think it's going to be a trade-off my friend. You have lots of power to get to the ground, but want comfort.....
In the back of my mind, I am thinking smaller springs and BIG sway bars. (I think that's the setup for Auto-X anyway)
I need to look up my alignment settings when I get home, but I think that you don't have enough toe in the rear. I think that when we tried 0 toe in the back, that the rear of the car gets very squirrley under extreme hard braking. I think we run with a slight amount of toe-in at the back to counteract this. As always, you will have to do some testing to get to where you want to be with camber, but it looks like you have a decent baseline.
Disclaimer: This is an opinion, the whole opinion, nothing but the opinion.
Posted by: Series9 Feb 8 2005, 07:30 PM
| QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Feb 8 2005, 03:46 PM) |
| My advice to you for a nice street car would be : Front torsion bars -19mm Rear Springs 150-180# (probably 150 considering you want to run w/ the rear bar) ****{I am thinking though, with the 3.6, you will be able to substantially squat the rear end under heavy acceleration}**** I think it's going to be a trade-off my friend. You have lots of power to get to the ground, but want comfort..... In the back of my mind, I am thinking smaller springs and BIG sway bars. (I think that's the setup for Auto-X anyway) I need to look up my alignment settings when I get home, but I think that you don't have enough toe in the rear. I think that when we tried 0 toe in the back, that the rear of the car gets very squirrley under extreme hard braking. I think we run with a slight amount of toe-in at the back to counteract this. As always, you will have to do some testing to get to where you want to be with camber, but it looks like you have a decent baseline. Disclaimer: This is an opinion, the whole opinion, nothing but the opinion. |
Well, I don't really go for 'street settings' in a mostly-street car. I tend to set-up more agressively.
Right now, I'm leaning toward 200# rear springs on Bilstein struts and Kumho Victoracers all around. We'll see how the drive to LA wears on the tires.
I'm still open to suggestions....
Posted by: seanery Feb 8 2005, 07:44 PM
the softest tire I would go for would be a Yokoa A032R, but what I'd really recomend is a Summer Extreme Performance Tire or a Falken Azenis.
I agree with the Koni yellow comment, why the need for Bilsteins?
Posted by: Series9 Feb 8 2005, 07:50 PM
| QUOTE (seanery @ Feb 8 2005, 06:44 PM) |
| I agree with the Koni yellow comment, why the need for Bilsteins? |
What's the problem with the Bilsteins?
Honestly, I don't really care wheather I have Bilsteins or Konis, that's not the question.
I'm trying to get a feel for:
Pricing
Spring rate and,
tires.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 8 2005, 08:20 PM
i have bills in the rear.... although not adjustable dampening.... the spring height is adjustable. this means you dont have to buy 125 buck threaded spring collar 
Posted by: seanery Feb 8 2005, 08:35 PM
konis are nice, adjustable and not harsh. I've found bils to be a bit harsh for my taste.
Posted by: Brett W Feb 8 2005, 09:17 PM
The coil over sleeve for any of the normal shocks can be had from a stock car supplier for less than 40 dollars. That is a complete coil over kit for a steel 2.0 diamter shock. I just found a coil over sleeve/kit for the front struts on the 4 cylinder cars for 37$ GOtt a turn the lock ring step out but that is it. Bolt on coil over setup in the front. You could use the same coil over setup on the rear with good success. Uses a 2.5 inch spring that are very common. You can find them for 30-80 dollars for all different sizes.
Posted by: Joseph Mills Feb 8 2005, 09:44 PM
Be aware, that 200# springs will give a noticeably stiffer/harsher ride on the street than stock springs. Personally, I don't mind it, but my street miles are limited.
Having said that, 200# springs with a stock front sway bar and S torsion bars will most likely produce a good amount of oversteer - and the faster you go, the more it will increase. I use to have the same front end as you and this was the case for me.
You might consider adding a 19mm adjustable sway bar with the 200# (I'd start with 180#) springs for a bit less oversteer and a more neutral balance (especially "at the limit").
I like the konis with adjustable dampening for street/AX applications.
I run Kumho Victoracers for AX and love them, but would NOT consider them for the street. Too short a tread life, too noisy and too stiff and too easy to puncture. If my AX is more than 20 miles away, I just carry them in the car.
In my opinion, the Falken Azenas may be the closest combination you seem to be looking for - great performance/price ratio. Very sticky and while not a high mileage tire, to me they have acceptable wear considering their performance.
It will take a bit of tweaking to get to where you want to be - most likely you're gonna end up having "something" for sale in our classifieds. 
Good luck!
Posted by: Brett W Feb 8 2005, 11:54 PM
I ran 180s on my four cylinder car for two years and other than being a little bouncy, I had no complaints. Since this car is a 6 I would start at 200s and plan on going up from there.
A 19mm bar would be good for the front. My 23 was always run in the middle to front positions to get the balance right.
Azenis would be a great tire for this combo if you can get them in the size you need. Who care if you have to replace the tires every 18 months. They will stick like hell and be really cheap too.
Posted by: MJHanna Feb 9 2005, 06:59 AM
http://www.paragon-products.com/?Click=559
Talk to Jason on your car and what you have done he's good for recommendations. I would do the Koni. I had 200# on my track car but it was a 4 not a six. So you have a little more weight. Based on what you’re going to do with the car I would go with 180# and adjustable Koni. I just did the Falken Azenis on the 911 really like them for the street. I would not do the Komho on the street.
Posted by: xitspd Feb 9 2005, 09:17 AM
Joe,
I bought my perches from Patrickmotorsports when I started my 3.6 project. I am presently using 400 pound springs. Very stiff! I may reduce them to 300 or 350 pounders. Randy Beck one of the better 914 drivers I know has told me the 400 pounders are over the top.
Posted by: brant Feb 9 2005, 09:57 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 8 2005, 07:20 PM) |
| i have bills in the rear.... although not adjustable dampening.... the spring height is adjustable. this means you dont have to buy 125 buck threaded spring collar |
Aaron,
can you take a picture of your set up?
I was talking with someone off line about different set ups and would love to show him this one?
TIA
Posted by: Mueller Feb 9 2005, 10:20 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 8 2005, 07:20 PM) |
| i have bills in the rear.... although not adjustable dampening.... the spring height is adjustable. this means you dont have to buy 125 buck threaded spring collar |
it also means that you cannot corner balance your car as easily....of course one does not usually corner balance ones car ever week, so spacers could be added in-between the circlip and the spring perch to fine tune the ride height....the spacers/sleeves can be made dirt cheap, it's the labor to install them that might add up if a shop is doing it for you...
Posted by: slivel Feb 9 2005, 12:32 PM
| QUOTE (xitspd @ Feb 9 2005, 07:17 AM) |
| Joe, I bought my perches from Patrickmotorsports when I started my 3.6 project. I am presently using 400 pound springs. Very stiff! I may reduce them to 300 or 350 pounders. Randy Beck one of the better 914 drivers I know has told me the 400 pounders are over the top. |
Dan, are you running a wing on your car? 400 may be OK if you have 1000 lbs downforce on the rear. I'm currently running 125-250 progressive on rear of my racecar (3.4 liter six) with no wing. See progressive vs linear thread. Over the years I have tried 250, 300, and 350 linear rate springs on the rear. Jury out on this new progressive set-up. I'll know more after Phoenix (18-20 Feb).
Steve
Posted by: xitspd Feb 9 2005, 12:47 PM
| QUOTE (slivel @ Feb 9 2005, 10:32 AM) | ||
Dan, are you running a wing on your car? 400 may be OK if you have 1000 lbs downforce on the rear. I'm currently running 125-250 progressive on rear of my racecar (3.4 liter six) with no wing. See progressive vs linear thread. Over the years I have tried 250, 300, and 350 linear rate springs on the rear. Jury out on this new progressive set-up. I'll know more after Phoenix (18-20 Feb). Steve |
Steve,
A Jeff Hayes monster wing was in the plans, but now a much more road friendly rear deck lid spoiler is in play. I will check out the progressive springs before my next purchase. Thanks for the advise....
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Posted by: groot Feb 13 2005, 02:00 PM
Some pics of my Koni Classics:
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Posted by: groot Feb 13 2005, 02:01 PM
Other side:
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Posted by: Jeroen Feb 25 2005, 08:27 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 9 2005, 05:17 AM) |
| I just found a coil over sleeve/kit for the front struts on the 4 cylinder cars for 37$ GOtt a turn the lock ring step out but that is it. Bolt on coil over setup in the front. |
care to share where you found these?
Posted by: redshift Feb 25 2005, 08:33 PM
ooops
Yes, what about this coiloverthing?
M
Posted by: groot Feb 26 2005, 07:53 AM
I found the same deal... actually Brett and I spoke about it a while ago.
If you take a few measurements and make a phone call or two you can use Circle track stuff. That's what I did.... and it's cheap and strong. The problem is these websites that sell it list which circle track shocks they fit and no measurements.
http://www.pitstopusa.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=1195
So, I called the manufacturer of the sleeves and told them what I needed, measurement-wise and away we went.
Posted by: Series9 Feb 26 2005, 03:23 PM
That's better.
Thanks Groot.
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Posted by: groot Feb 26 2005, 04:38 PM
Sweet. A nice fresh coat of paint, too. Enjoy!!
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