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Posted by: altitude411 Mar 30 2015, 12:16 PM

Question for you gurus... what year did the impact bars inside the doors start being implemented?

Posted by: Cairo94507 Mar 30 2015, 12:17 PM

1973 I believe.

Posted by: billh1963 Mar 30 2015, 12:21 PM

Yep. From what I've read early '73 cars do not have them....they came during the model year run

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 30 2015, 12:21 PM

There were some early 73 cars that did not have the door bars or updated window winders.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2015, 12:21 PM

Posted by: altitude411 Mar 30 2015, 12:29 PM

Thanks guys.

Posted by: 914Sixer Mar 30 2015, 03:44 PM

1973 model cars made from Aug to Dec 72 for the USA did not have impact barrier. All cars after Jan 1 1973 had them. Euro cars were not required to have them or retractable seat belts.

Posted by: damesandhotrods Mar 30 2015, 05:45 PM

NHTSA Standard No. 214 – Side Impact Protection

Static Requirement, Vehicle doors must provide resistance to load applied via a rigid steel cylinder.

Passenger Cars effective 01/01/73 all shall meet requirements.

Posted by: 914_teener Mar 30 2015, 06:20 PM

Yep....my build date is 1/73 and it has them plus the late window mechanisms.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Mar 30 2015, 08:54 PM

Weird. I think mine is 4/73 and it doesn't have them. But then again, I'm not positive they're the original doors, though the Olympic blue paint seems to suggest they are.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2015, 11:12 PM

Is that the actual built date from the Karman plate or from the door jamb sticker?

The sticker is *not* the actual real build date of the chassis. It's the date when the car was "federalized" for US import.

Posted by: Garold Shaffer Mar 31 2015, 05:40 AM

I have early 73 doors with no side beam with the late window mechs in them.

Posted by: 914Sixer Mar 31 2015, 06:16 AM

It is looking like the old hit and miss. They used the parts on hand until they ran out, not always on the required date.

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Mar 31 2015, 06:18 AM

+1

My '73 is set up the same way, the compliance sticker shows 9/72.

I think it has an early roof though.

Posted by: scotty b Mar 31 2015, 06:42 AM

Not really. I have had several sets of the early 73 doors. I have also compared early vs late inner panels to see how easily an early door could be changed to the later regulators. The inner door stamping is quite different for the early vs late window regulators, so the early 73 doors were already made different to accept the later regulators. My guess is the laws for the crash bars was implemented after the doors were changed, so Porsche/VW then added the crash bars to the existing plan

Posted by: altitude411 Mar 31 2015, 09:31 AM

This brings up another question for me... (briefly) what are the differences of the early/ late regulators?

Posted by: damesandhotrods Mar 31 2015, 09:44 AM

I don’t buy that for a second. Europe was terrified of Ralf Nader. Even though the ‘70s US auto market was made more challenging by economic malaise and a falling dollar it was still one of their most lucrative. The 914 was sold all over the world, Karmann had plenty of markets to use up any non-US spec parts.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 31 2015, 09:59 AM

Briefly? Everything ...

Completely different in every way.

Posted by: altitude411 Mar 31 2015, 11:27 AM

Ha. Should be relatively easy to spot then... Thanks Andy.

Posted by: Tom_T Mar 31 2015, 09:26 PM

If they did, then they were using the old early doors & regulators (winders), because the later regulators won't fit in the early doors as someone noted above.

Another reason later 73-76 cars could have late doors without side beams, is that apparently most of the repair part doors had no side beams - apparently due some loophole in the side impact law then - according to a couple of first person sources I know from Porsche+Audi dealers back in the 70's.

Also PO's could've changed to the lighter no side-beam doors for AX, rally & race reasons.

So a few 914s after the 1/1/73 effective date could also have replacement doors without beams.

FYI - My early 73 with 8/31/72 Chassis No. build date has the "early" late doors without side beams, late regulators & originally had the window handles with the chrome arms (later changed to black by OO/PO & me as they broke with use).

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 31 2015, 09:36 PM

Early '73 doors have the later style windows regulator mechanism but *no* door bar reinforcement beams.

They have the best of both, the light weight of the early doors and the better regulators from the later doors.


I happen to have a set of those early '73 doors in my shed that will one day go onto my real /6 ...

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 31 2015, 09:52 PM

Early: A cable does the lifting.
Late: A scissors-type mechanism does the lifting.



Early:



Late:


--DD

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Mar 31 2015, 10:20 PM

FWIW, 4732900193 has early doors, early windows, early top, etc. No beams, and the bad windows, in other words.

So were there three doors used in 1973 model cars: Early, hybrid, and late? Very curious what the VIN ranges were.

Paul (project 914 3.6 for Excellence) added late windows and window gear to early doors. It took some welding, I think?

pete

Posted by: 914_teener Mar 31 2015, 10:36 PM

So I am confused by these posts.

If the body build tags assigned mean nothing about when the chassis was shipped from the factory, then you have to go by the vin number right?

If the car was shipped and then tagged with a date, then would that mean that of that date the car met US FED DOT regulations for automobiles?

I can understand the window regulators being different but if the DOT reg for a car sold in 73 must have side beam protection....then shouldn't the doors have had them?

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 31 2015, 10:53 PM

MY (Model Year) and selling date are not the same.

The production for MY '73 started in summer of '72, so my best guess is that the regulations regarding the door impact beams for the US didn't go into effect until after the MY '73 production had already begun.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 31 2015, 10:57 PM

Yes. Sorta. The DOT stickers were applied in Germany before the cars were shipped off to the US.

Many of the early '73 cars have DOT stickers showing a '72 build date, meaning, they didn't have to conform to the '73 DOT regulations.

More confuzzled now?

Posted by: 914_teener Apr 1 2015, 12:23 AM

Naw.....I think that actually makes sense. Thanks Andy.

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Apr 1 2015, 10:33 AM

OK to drag this out a little further....

if you have a 73 with the late window mechanisms and early roof what is the difference in the windows. do the windows go with the mechanism early/late.
my roof fits snug with no large gaps.

kind of wondering in case I have to buy some new seals.

I have early 73, (4732902387) no door bars, late window mechanism and early roof.

2nd owner so all parts are original. original owner just drove it, no wrecks, no modifications.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 1 2015, 10:58 AM

I'm not sure about the glass used on those doors. I guess i could go out to the shed and compare them to the ones on my car and see if the glass is any different.

The later style top seal are a better design compared to the early ones. All the reproductions i have ever seen are of the later style anyways.

As long as you align everything correctly, they should fit your top and seal well enough.

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 1 2015, 11:06 AM

These are the doors on my '70 six. I assume they are not original since they have crash bars yet they have original signal orange paint. These are the crash bars pictured. Yes? I also have early regulators ( thanks for the pictures Dave) I'm looking to replace drivers door so question is... do early regulators fit in late doors? I'm thinking yes unless these are hybrid or modified?


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Posted by: whatabout1 Apr 1 2015, 11:50 AM

My '73 has bars and late regulators.

The interesting thing is that the bar in the driver
door is wider and thicker then the bar in the passenger door.
The passenger door bar doesn't look like it would stop much.

But then I can't prove either door is original.

The drivers door also has a early/mid mirror. The flag is early (small)
but the elbow looks late. But the elbow is not the same as all the other
late elbows I have seen. (I have about 12 mirrors right now).

I will see if I can get some pics of the doors

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 1 2015, 03:32 PM

Nope, completely different mechanism and mounting.

And those doors don't look like Signal Orange to me ...

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 1 2015, 03:45 PM

So these aren't late doors? Those are impact bars aren't they? I'm beyond confused. But, I do know what signal orange is and there is signal orange hiding behind the re spray & grime...I know it's tough to see in the photo's.


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Posted by: SirAndy Apr 1 2015, 03:54 PM

They are LATE doors with LATE impact beams and mounting for a LATE window mechanism.


Look at Dave's images above to see what an early door looks like ...

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 1 2015, 03:59 PM

Humm... I pulled the regulators and they are cable type just like the first picture that is labeled "early"

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 1 2015, 04:26 PM

The mid-size oval hole in your first picture looks like the mounting for a late regulator. The early doors only have a tiny opening for the crank handle in that location

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 1 2015, 04:44 PM

I completely understand & agree w/everything your saying Andy and appreciate your knowledge and wiliness to teach. I seem to have late model doors w/early regulators...and I can't tell that they've been butchered so that's why I'm cornfused... I just thought they were interchangeable. I'll have another look at my regulators to see if they've been modified at all but the windows were working fine when they came apart. Now I'll wish I had taken a "before" picture...

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Apr 1 2015, 05:46 PM

Maybe someone put the early inner panels on later door skins, so you could keep the window regulators that were already there.

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 2 2015, 01:00 AM

Oly 1.7; I would think it would be much easier to just source the other regulator.

Regardless, I know nobody gives a shit at this point, but this is the best pic I could find of my assembled door. If you zoom in you can see early (cable) regulator on a obviously late door.
* also note the highly sought after triple crack dash*


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Posted by: scotty b Apr 2 2015, 08:53 AM

early door, early regulator. ( Cairo's - 6 )


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Posted by: scotty b Apr 2 2015, 08:54 AM

late door ( late 73 on ) and Early door together.

I'll try to remember to get a pic of a late regulator next time I have one out


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Posted by: scotty b Apr 2 2015, 08:56 AM

I also have some early 73 doors in storage if anyone needs pics of them to, but it may be a couple weeks

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 2 2015, 09:14 AM

hair trigger...

Posted by: altitude411 Apr 2 2015, 09:19 AM

Thanks for the pics Scotty. So an early regulator will fit in late door. It's just a matter of drilling a couple of holes... although the better regulator is the late one (obviously) so it's not a mod that makes any improvement but it can be done.


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Posted by: altitude411 Apr 2 2015, 09:23 AM

Ok, to round out my learning curve.... is the glass different between the early and late?