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Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Apr 6 2015, 06:15 PM

Was checking up on ignition upgrades from Pertronix again and saw that they offer the Ignitor III for our vacuum dizzies now. Supposed to work like a box style ignition without the box(multiple spark, rev limiter). Did a search here and didn't see anything for that model. Anybody used an Ignitor III and have any useful feedback on or off a Porsche? Not looking for opinions on whether or not Pertronix belongs in our cars or not, just on the functionality of the Ignitor III. With that said, I know this may start a storm.....

Posted by: 76-914 Apr 6 2015, 09:38 PM

Posted by: colingreene Apr 7 2015, 11:00 AM

I personally have had problems with the parts they sell.
but it works for others

Posted by: Java2570 Apr 7 2015, 12:20 PM

I've heard of others using Ignitor II but I'm thinking the Ignitor III won't be compatible with the 914 components. I would try calling Pertronix about it first....I don't see anything on their site saying it
would work with our setups. I'm wrong a lot though so....YMMV!

Posted by: SKL1 Apr 7 2015, 12:45 PM

Why would this be better than Permatune? I've had a Permatune on my '71 for years with no issues...

Posted by: SLITS Apr 7 2015, 12:48 PM

QUOTE(Java2570 @ Apr 7 2015, 11:20 AM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Apr 7 2015, 01:01 PM

Part number 71847v. They run about $130 on Summit and Ebay. Curious to know if they are as easy to set up as the ignitor 1 and 2. I like that the whole set up fits under the cap still, but is multiple spark and also has a rev limiter. If the 3 works well in other applications, it ought to do so on a type 4 engine as well. Good price for that kind of ignition control.

I figure if they are listing the part number it will at least bolt in with a possible mod for the vacuum advance that is needed for the 1 &2.

Posted by: Java2570 Apr 7 2015, 01:27 PM

I don't see the specific instructions for the 71847v but the other Ignitor III install procedures look very similar to how the Ignitor I & II install. Buy one and try it out and post a review of how it works....
you are elected class guinea pig!!

Posted by: euro911 May 25 2015, 04:55 PM

I've been running a -II on my 2056 for over 3 years now - but I still carry a spare dizzy w/points just in case

Posted by: boxsterfan May 25 2015, 05:23 PM

Opinions on the Pertronix are like reviews on Amazon. Some love/like....some hate. I have Pertronix II. Never bothered me. Either carry spare points, spare Pertonix or have a towing plan with your car insurance. All easily solvable problems.

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 25 2015, 08:35 PM

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Apr 7 2015, 11:45 AM)

Posted by: cuddyk May 25 2015, 09:17 PM

I have a P-III on my 65 mustang. Works great. The big diff between the II and the III is that with the III you don't need to install a ring over your dizzy shaft. It senses when the lobe spins around (by the change in magnetic field).

Anyway, my PIII works great. Not sure if it's compatible with the 914. If it is, keep in mind that it either works or it doesn't...it's not like points which give you some notice when they're worn or on their way out. When the pertronix dies, it'll happen in an instant and you'll be stranded. That's why many P users keep a spare set of points or a spare PIII in the trunk (myself included)!

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Aug 10 2017, 04:48 PM

You guys that are using the Pertronix III, what coil and plug wires are you using?
Also, did you increase you spark plug gap?
Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Aug 10 2017, 06:20 PM

Jet, check the classifieds. I have a Pertronix SVDA distributor and coil for sale

Posted by: bandjoey Aug 10 2017, 07:13 PM

II installed on otherwise stock (blue coil) motor. 3 years not not a drop of trouble... and now it'll probably quite tomorrow.

Posted by: solex Aug 11 2019, 01:39 PM

I just installed the III and cannot seem to get the engine to idle any one have any experience with getting the III run in a stock 2.0 D-JET?

Also I'm running a stock coil, I checked the resistance and it is 2.3 ohms with no wire attached and am running Magencore Electrosport 70 SS25 200T spark plug wires.

Any thoughts or direction would be appreciated.

Regards,
Dan

Posted by: porschetub Aug 11 2019, 03:14 PM

QUOTE(solex @ Aug 12 2019, 07:39 AM)

Posted by: bbrock Aug 11 2019, 03:45 PM

According to the Pertronix III instructions, it is compatible with any coil of 0.32 Ohms or greater so should work with stock coil. http://support.pertronix.com/file.php?key=aojZ89Wg8SMpw7qkZde3cZip40QK3UOA&expires=1565654400&signature=f6841665b464afc3ef7e7f6c61a66cdecbd8493f

I recently bought and installed a Pertronix III and their matching Flamethrower III coil but am months away from firing up the engine so can't comment on how well it works.

As Ian mentioned, there is no magnetic ring under the rotor with the Pertronix III ande is no adjustment for air gap.

Posted by: SteveL Aug 11 2019, 03:53 PM

I have had a Pertronix in place of the points for 15-20 years now, must be a series 1 if that old. Never an issue.

Posted by: solex Aug 11 2019, 05:18 PM

I checked everything even called Pertronix prior to purchasing to make sure the plug wires I had were good. I will have to call them again.

I may need to downgrade to a II or I or back to good old points and condenser.

Thanks for the responses

Posted by: solex Aug 15 2019, 08:35 AM

Spoke with Carl from Pertronix.

(1) I'm on vacation and cannot confirm the stock distributor number but guessed at 0-231-174-005 (from ebay pictures) if any one can confirm that would be great, I'm not sure how many different stock distributors there are out there

When I get home:

(2) Verify that 12V is on the + of the coil

(3) There should be no other wires on the - side of the coil except the Pertronix

(4) 2.3 ohms is too high and they recommend no more that 1 ohm other wise the engine will run hot

(5) check the spark at the coil, should just at 3/8" to a ground which indicates 35k vols

(6) check the spare at the plug which should also jump 3/8" to a ground

Thought this was going to be easy and a nice upgrade...

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Aug 16 2019, 07:12 PM

OP here. I ended up canning the Ignitor III. Never ran it actually. I seem to remember that it wouldn't allow use of a tachometer without some extra work, or some other major drawback. Went to an Ignitor II and ran it that way for a while. Now still running the II, but switched to carbs and it is driving a 6AL Digital MSD box with appropriate additional bits(Blaster 2 coil, tach adapter, 8mm wires). I have no experience with MSD and D-jet, but I'd imagine it'd be okay.

If you downgrade to a II it should run fine with D-jet.

Posted by: solex Aug 22 2019, 12:24 PM

Got it running, after checking everything I had my son start the engine while I adjusted the distributor, turned out the distributor was not 100% seated before and I did not remember the correct location.

I'm going to order their "Flame-Thrower II Coil, Epoxy Filled (45, 000 Volts, 0.6 Ohm), Black" coil part number 45111, as the Pertronix tech recommended no more than 1 ohm resistance at the coil and supposedly will give cooler running temperatures.

I will check the engine temp before I replace the coil

Posted by: Rand Aug 22 2019, 02:29 PM

Pertronix worked great for me for 20+ years. Then I got a 123 dizzy. Better yet. Points are nice to have in the glove box in case you need a backup, but surely no where near the performance of newer tech.

Posted by: Al Meredith Aug 22 2019, 02:43 PM

I've had problems with two pertronix units . I noticed the advice from pertronix that they want ONLY their unit on the 12volt side of the coil. That may have been my problem because I have the electric fuel pump plugged into the coil along with the P unit.

Posted by: solex Aug 22 2019, 04:07 PM

QUOTE(Al Meredith @ Aug 22 2019, 04:43 PM)

Posted by: solex Aug 31 2019, 04:45 PM

I have given up.

I order there epoxy coil with 0.6 ohms resistance and found both a vacuum leak and a fuel leak, everything has been corrected including a new cap and rotor but still am experiencing a hunting idle, bucking & pinging under acceleration.

I installed new points and a condenser, set the dwell the timing. Idle and accelerates perfectly...

I'm going to see if I can return the parts.

Posted by: ndfrigi Aug 31 2019, 05:22 PM

here is my experienced with pertronix, bought my 1st 914 75 1.8 FI last 2011. The car last registration was 2003 and been sitting for 8 years as non-op. So 2011 since I bought it, did nothing with the dizzy except just look at the inside and it is clean, so I didn’t bother changing anything except replace spark plugs and wire for the ignition system and fix all fuel lines and installed SS tunnel lines and other needs to be restored since it was a non-op for 8 years.
I was able to drive the car for more than 4 years until the pertronix failed. Installed old contacts points just to test and it did run again. And since I also have a used pertronix from my stash of dizzy, grab that pertronix and installed it and it run well again even not knowing the condition of that pertronix. Sold the car last 2017 with same pertronix. So meaning, as long you have the right or proper installation, pertronix should be better than contact point.

Posted by: solex Sep 2 2019, 04:13 PM

I have no doubt that Pertronix I & II works based on everyone's experience.

I purchased version 3 to see if it will also work and have not heard from anyone else that has it running. I'm inclined to say that it does not work with a stock D-Jet setup, this of course is not a scientific conclusion based on a single data point

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 7 2019, 06:58 PM

My dizzy just went bad & I have MSD and see this as the perfect time to get rid of points.....just thinking of a new 009 from George with Pertronix 1875A OR Pertronix D186604 Flame Thrower dizzy for $140.....

1. Will either work with my MSD?

2. Which would be preferable - the 009 or Flame Thrower?

PS: Anyone ever heard of a mechanic removing one of the centrifugal advance springs to radically change the advance curve? I haven't - but one spring is gone and no where to be found - and there is no place for it to get out of the dizzy........

GN

QUOTE(solex @ Aug 11 2019, 06:18 PM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 7 2019, 07:13 PM

The 009 and pertronix units will "work" but they have the wrong curve and will never run properly. I'd recommend a stock unit over those, and with vacuum hooked up in a T from each carb to the advance pot, or pony up for the 123 unit that seems to be working well on these engines.

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 7 2019, 07:52 PM

I installed a Pertronix III ignitor, Flamethrower dizzy and their recommended coil on my 2056 L-Jet this past summer ($245). I have the recommended resistive plug wires. After a 10 mile warm up I would get ignition drop outs at idle which were severe enough to cause a stall. I then performed the voltage and resistance tests that they requested and it passed the tests. I initiated a warranty return and found that the replacement ignitor behaved the same way. I suspect that it could be corrected by reducing the ignitor gap but there is no adjustment. An internet search revealed that I was not the only one having drop outs when fully warmed up.

When I requested a refund from Pertronix they refused and referred me to the seller (CIP1). I am hopeful that CIP1 will provide a refund after which I will probably switch to 123Ignition.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 7 2019, 07:53 PM

Jim -

PRICELESS information - thank you. You know I have Weber IDF-44's, right? Not D-jet.

Now - where to connect the vacuum line? On the IDF 44's there is a very small tube for a vacuum connection at the bottom of the carbs - is this point of sufficient size?

TIA,

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 7 2019, 08:13 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 7 2019, 07:57 PM

Thanks for the info.........

I'd love the 123 someday, but just out of my budget now.

Not sure what to do now......hate to stick with points......I have EI in my old '70's Triumph motorcycles.....

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 7 2019, 08:52 PM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 7 2019, 08:22 PM

I'm running with 40's on mine. Stock cam with carbs should in theory be able to use stock ignition curve was my thinking, and it hasn't been a problem. Also running MSD being triggered by an ignitor II. From what I read on the III it is incompatible with tachometers and/or ignition boxes.

I am using the small vac port near the bottom of the carb on each side. It is actually above the throttle plate, so it is ported vacuum. The vac ports from each carb need to be T'd together to prevent a pulsing vacuum signal.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 7 2019, 08:33 PM

Hmmm.....just thinking - my '76 2.0 was running perfectly - I cannot imagine better - with the 009 and its centrifugal advance.

How does the Pertronix change the advance curve?

What about a stock dizzy (vacuum advance) and the Pertronix?

Enquiring minds want to know.......

TIA,

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 7 2019, 08:13 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 7 2019, 08:48 PM

Jim -

Totally got you on the vacuum lines being "T'd"....was thinking my ports were below the throttle plates tho.....same level as the air mixture screws.....

Is there a thread evaluating vacuum advance performance vs. centrifugal advance performance on Type 4's using carbs?

One top 914 shop in Colorado advised me to bend the tabs in the dizzy to keep the advance from going a full 27 deg, cutting the advance back about 10 - then advancing the idle timing to about 5 to 7 degrees......he said it would improve performance between idle and about 3,000 rpm a lot......

Hadn't done that yet....

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 7 2019, 09:22 PM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 9 2019, 05:52 AM

I honestly don't have any hard data on the differences between a Bosch 009 and the flamethrower. My flamethrower ran like crap, and my stock distributor with the pertronix ignitor II driving my 6AL runs strong as hell.

As far as your 009 running fine, it all comes down to how you have your particular engine dialed in I suppose. From what I've read and experienced over the years, I don't think they have the optimal advance curve for any road going application. Fine for idle to WOT on a track, which is where they gained popularity with the big crowd. Just my opinion though.

Haven't seen a true evaluation of vac vs. no vac. That'd be interesting to see.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 9 2019, 08:20 AM

Seems this should be so simple - but it's not.

Seems like the least expensive path to great carb performance (Pelican: here -

https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_timing_carbs/914_timing_carbs.htm )

would be a 205AA dizzy with vacuum advance, Pertronix ignitor, and MDS with timing set at 34 deg. BTDC at 3200 rpm.

But it appears you cannot get a 205AA anywhere at a reasonable cost.

I'm reluctant to get another 009 - although at one time mine ran fine - because of comments here.....and a 123 is out of my budget and a goal someday.....

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 9 2019, 06:52 AM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 9 2019, 08:29 AM

I've also heard of folks using the 205AB from a 1.8 with good results. Still vacuum advanced, but no bottom trigger points which is a mute point. May be able to find one of those more easily and for less.

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 9 2019, 09:10 AM

Checking out the pertronix website, it looks like they make a vac advance distributor with the ignitor II in it already. Would be curious to see how well it runs on a type IV motor. Part number D182504. Can be found https://www.amazon.com/Pertronix-D182504-Ignitor-Distributor-Volkswagen/dp/B00AWQS6VW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=d182504&qid=1575903929&sr=8-1 for about $176.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 9 2019, 10:49 AM

Decision made. Ordered new 009 dizzy from AA and 1874A Ignitor directly from Pertronix for $87.......and they told me they were 15% off last Friday......Pertronix told me the 1874A was the correct unit for the 009 and would indeed work with MSD ignition.....

We'll see what happens.....

GN

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 10 2019, 07:17 AM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 9 2019, 10:49 AM)

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 10 2019, 07:46 AM

Clay,
What is the best option for a 1.8L dizzy short of 123ignition? 050? Thanks.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Dec 10 2019, 07:56 AM

009 is a great distributor, for a generator engine

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 10 2019, 10:52 AM

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 10 2019, 07:46 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 12:25 PM

Asked Pertronix about this - it will not fit/work in Type 4 engines. Only Type 1's.

They also told me that either the 1874A or V would work with the 009 dizzy, and either is $87 from them........someone somewhere stated that the V would not work with the 009....

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 9 2019, 10:10 AM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 10 2019, 12:33 PM

Saw reviews on Amazon and Summit of guys running them on type IV engines. Said the body of it had to be rotated to avoid the tin, and basically put the plug wires to where they make sense and in the right order.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 12:37 PM

Clay -

Thanks. Car had an 009 in it when I got it, and after I got the Weber's dialed in, it ran great - I could find no faults whatsoever putting car through all possible load tests.

As I think I noted before or elsewhere, a top 914 shop in Colorado advised me to bend the stop tabs a bit in an 009 reducing the total advance degrees, and then setting the advance to about 30 deg. at 3500 rpm.

When I win the lottery (which I don't play, but figure my odds of finding a winning ticket on the ground are about the same) I'll get a 123ignition - or when I have a bit more cash on hand in the future..... ;-)

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 10 2019, 08:17 AM)

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 9 2019, 10:49 AM)

Decision made. Ordered new 009 dizzy from AA and 1874A Ignitor directly from Pertronix for $87.......and they told me they were 15% off last Friday......Pertronix told me the 1874A was the correct unit for the 009 and would indeed work with MSD ignition.....

We'll see what happens.....

GN

The 009 distributor has a lousy advance curve for use in a Type IV. I would not recommend using it. You will be disappointed with it.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 12:52 PM

Jim -

Very interesting - but the 009 is on the way.

But I have to wonder what the advance curve looks like on it - compared to the 009......

Pertronix flat told me it would not work.....or I would have ordered it for sure......

Thanks,

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 10 2019, 01:33 PM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 10 2019, 02:08 PM

It will work. Just not optimized curve. Find TDC on #1 before you start the chore and don't rotate the engine.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 02:50 PM

Clay & Perry -

What is it about the advance curve in the 009 that is the problem?

Total advance too much? Starts at too low rpm?

There are those who say the 009 is fine.....

or that it has no vacuum retard?

Just curious......



GN

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 03:13 PM

Sitting on TDC right now........of course, no mark on 2.0.

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Dec 10 2019, 03:08 PM)

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 10 2019, 03:18 PM

Should be able to see the notch on the flywheel through the inspection window at the top of the transmission. Once that is lined up you could use a paint pen, fingernail polish, etc to make a TDC mark on the fan.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 03:22 PM

Ok, seeing from this chart what may be the issue.



On the 050, the advance curve is pretty linear from 1000 rpm up.

On the 090, the curve is not linear, but stays flat from 6 deg. advance at 1700 rpm to 2400 rpm where it starts to suddenly rise at 2400 rpm to 3400.

I can see where this could cause problems.

Interesting the two charts differ somewhat.......

GN

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 03:23 PM

Already did that. Used small mirror to see 27 deg. BTDC red mark and go from there.....

Used paint pen.

Thanks.

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 10 2019, 04:18 PM)

Posted by: yeahmag Dec 10 2019, 05:58 PM

It may have been mentioned, but the 009 has too much advance. What ends up happening is you end up with way too little advance down low so that you don't over advance above 3K RPM. The Mallory's that Jake use to sell were fairly linear and had 16 deg total advance (12-28).

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 06:32 PM

Aaron -

Thank you.

Ok, guys. What are my alternatives if I don't want to use my 009 and don't want to belly up for the big bucks for the 123ignition.........

Suggestions, please.......

With thanks in advance.....

GN

QUOTE(yeahmag @ Dec 10 2019, 06:58 PM)

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 10 2019, 06:39 PM

Great chart, helps to visualize the considerations.

Hoping to NOT muddy the water here but what about something like this?

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 06:53 PM

TD -

No mud at all. I looked at these and seriously considered it.....want to see the advance curve first - and see how one would keep the advance to no more than 22 deg.

Checking now to see if I can get the advance curve off of Pelican's site.......if not, I'll call them tomorrow.

On another note, I can get the Pertronix FlameThrower for $133 on Amazon - but one thing that concerns me is about 1/3 of all buyers have something wrong.......not good.......but those for whom it works rave about it.........

GN

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Dec 10 2019, 07:39 PM)

Great chart, helps to visualize the considerations.

Hoping to NOT muddy the water here but what about something like this?

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 07:17 PM

Aaron -

The total advance is easily reduced by bending the stop tab for the weight that is attached to the spring.

Logically, with the total advance being 22 deg., a 25% reduction in that gap would result in a total advance of about 16 deg.....which would probably work fine.

Or, I could add a small spring to the two posts on the other weight - but not knowing what the result would be.....

The only problem is the flat spot between 1700 rpm and 2400 rpm (as far as advance) remains and I see no mechanical way to change that.

GN

QUOTE(yeahmag @ Dec 10 2019, 06:58 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 08:05 PM

Wondering where I could get a Bosche 009 made in Brazil - its advance curve looks perfect.

Very linear and only 20 degrees total.......

Anyone know?

GN

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 10 2019, 09:04 PM

Found the advance curve for the Pertronix D182504 Flame Thrower Distributor:

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipOHpcBoYehkM__s2eZ4ObqS8HWl1g9ImZ6cMX02

Looks perfect for a 914 2.0.


GN

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 11 2019, 08:34 AM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 10 2019, 09:05 PM)

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 11 2019, 09:14 AM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 10 2019, 07:53 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 11 2019, 09:29 AM

Have you used them? If so, what has been your experience with them?

Any other members here have experience with the Brazillian 009's? I used to spend a lot of time in Brazil and was fairly fluent in Brazillian Portuguese (upon introduction they thought I was a native) - so maybe I'll get along great with these dizzy's.......

Are yours new? PM me with what you want for one.

As Pelican doesn't open until 11am EST, I won't have an answer from them for an hour or more - but will post it for sure.

GN

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Dec 11 2019, 09:34 AM)

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 10 2019, 09:05 PM)

Wondering where I could get a Bosche 009 made in Brazil - its advance curve looks perfect.

Very linear and only 20 degrees total.......

Anyone know?

GN

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21449 - I have a couple

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 11 2019, 02:28 PM

If you are looking for a distributor that works well with carbs, get the stock distributor for a 74-74 1.8L L-Jet engine.

Then get this from Pertronix.

https://pertronix.com/electronic-ignition-conversions?year=1974&make=Porsche&model=914#auto

Any of the three will work fine. The Ignitor I is what we have been running for years.


Put it in, set the timing to 7.5 degrees at idle. Leave both vacuum connections disconnected.

Then

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 11 2019, 08:09 PM

Clay -

Thank you! What distributor would that be?

The Pertronix was ordered Monday and will be here next Monday.......

RE: The advance curve on the Dansk (which is now $67) - Pelican Parts does not have that information and sent me to the European supplier for the Dansk distributor.

Every indication is that the Dansk is a clone of the 009 and thus shares the advance curve of the 009........

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 11 2019, 03:28 PM)

If you are looking for a distributor that works well with carbs, get the stock distributor for a 74-74 1.8L L-Jet engine.

Then get this from Pertronix.

https://pertronix.com/electronic-ignition-conversions?year=1974&make=Porsche&model=914#auto

Any of the three will work fine. The Ignitor I is what we have been running for years.


Put it in, set the timing to 7.5 degrees at idle. Leave both vacuum connections disconnected.

Then

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 11 2019, 09:54 PM

I don't know the part number, but you should be able to place a wanted to buy ad in the parts forum.

Clay

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 11 2019, 08:09 PM)

Clay -

Thank you! What distributor would that be?

The Pertronix was ordered Monday and will be here next Monday.......

RE: The advance curve on the Dansk (which is now $67) - Pelican Parts does not have that information and sent me to the European supplier for the Dansk distributor.

Every indication is that the Dansk is a clone of the 009 and thus shares the advance curve of the 009........

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 11 2019, 03:28 PM)

If you are looking for a distributor that works well with carbs, get the stock distributor for a 74-74 1.8L L-Jet engine.

Then get this from Pertronix.

https://pertronix.com/electronic-ignition-conversions?year=1974&make=Porsche&model=914#auto

Any of the three will work fine. The Ignitor I is what we have been running for years.


Put it in, set the timing to 7.5 degrees at idle. Leave both vacuum connections disconnected.

Then

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 07:39 AM

Clay -

Thanks. Talked to Pelican yesterday - they say the dizzy for the '74 1.8 is the Dansk, which is a clone of the 009........which I now have 2 of........

hmmmm.............

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 11 2019, 10:54 PM)

I don't know the part number, but you should be able to place a wanted to buy ad in the parts forum.

Clay

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 11 2019, 08:09 PM)

Clay -

Thank you! What distributor would that be?

The Pertronix was ordered Monday and will be here next Monday.......

RE: The advance curve on the Dansk (which is now $67) - Pelican Parts does not have that information and sent me to the European supplier for the Dansk distributor.

Every indication is that the Dansk is a clone of the 009 and thus shares the advance curve of the 009........

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 11 2019, 03:28 PM)

If you are looking for a distributor that works well with carbs, get the stock distributor for a 74-74 1.8L L-Jet engine.

Then get this from Pertronix.

https://pertronix.com/electronic-ignition-conversions?year=1974&make=Porsche&model=914#auto

Any of the three will work fine. The Ignitor I is what we have been running for years.


Put it in, set the timing to 7.5 degrees at idle. Leave both vacuum connections disconnected.

Then

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Dec 12 2019, 07:50 AM

I put a brand new Pertronix SVDA on a customer car, with the vacuum advance connected and it ran great, for about 250 miles and the Ignitor tanked. I switched to a 1.8 distributor with vacuum advance and points. This is the 3rd Ignitor that failed prematurely, I'm not a fan.

I tried to put points in the Pertronix distributor, but I couldn't make it happen

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 12 2019, 08:22 AM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 12 2019, 07:39 AM)

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 12 2019, 08:49 AM

This thread is practically begging for a table that lists;

Factory
Recommend non-stock or Aftermarket
Not recommended


1.7
1.8
2.0
2.0 /6
2.2 / 6
2.4 / 6
3.0 /6
3.2 /6

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:49 AM

Perry -

Yes - their track record does not look good - something like 1/3 of those who purchase on Amazon/eBay have negative experiences.

Yes, about 2/3 have great experience.......I'll try the ignitor, but carry a spare dizzy with points.....

Thanks,

GN

QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Dec 12 2019, 08:50 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:49 AM

Bulls-eye.

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Dec 12 2019, 09:49 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:53 AM

Perry -

Word seems to be that you do NOT leave the ignition ON and engine not running with these......burns up the ignitor module.

A serious design weakness that with good electronic design could easily be fixed....

A hat I wore in the long distant past was Sr. VP of an electronics company......

GN

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 12 2019, 10:49 AM)

Perry -

Yes - their track record does not look good - something like 1/3 of those who purchase on Amazon/eBay have negative experiences.

Yes, about 2/3 have great experience.......I'll try the ignitor, but carry a spare dizzy with points.....

Thanks,

GN

QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Dec 12 2019, 08:50 AM)

I put a brand new Pertronix SVDA on a customer car, with the vacuum advance connected and it ran great, for about 250 miles and the Ignitor tanked. I switched to a 1.8 distributor with vacuum advance and points. This is the 3rd Ignitor that failed prematurely, I'm not a fan.

I tried to put points in the Pertronix distributor, but I couldn't make it happen

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:57 AM

Clay -

Do you see the '74 1.8 dizzy on either chart on Post 52 or 55?

Also, what are the three digits prior to the 009? I hear they are definitive.......

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 12 2019, 09:22 AM)

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 12 2019, 07:39 AM)

Clay -

Thanks. Talked to Pelican yesterday - they say the dizzy for the '74 1.8 is the Dansk, which is a clone of the 009........which I now have 2 of........

hmmmm.............

GN

Whomever you talked to at Pelican doesn't know 914s.

There is a number on the 1.8L distributor that says 009, but it is NOT the same as the Bosch 009 distributor. The advance curve is completely different, and an L-Jet distributor has a vacuum advance.

I will check my L-Jet parts stash this weekend. I am fairly sure I have an L-Jet distributor.

Clay

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 12 2019, 10:07 AM

The ignitor I is prone to failure with KOEO for extended periods. The ignitor II is less touchy about that, has reverse polarity protection, is more stable at high rpm, and has adaptive dwell control.

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 12 2019, 04:27 PM

So I have a and OE dizzy that came off of a 1.8L , number 231 181 009 / 022 985 205 AA. Can anyone tell me if this is a "good" 009 or is it the one with the flat spot? Thanks!

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 05:14 PM

I'm guessing, but the chart here

https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_timing/914_timing.htm

along with the chart on Post 55 seem to indicate that your dizzy is the last one on the Pelican list, and different from the 178 009.....

Maybe someone who knows the 914 dizzy's better than I can help.....

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 12 2019, 05:27 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 05:15 PM

Jim -

Good news - makes sense Pertronix would fix that problem...

GN

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 12 2019, 11:07 AM)

Posted by: 914werke Dec 12 2019, 07:23 PM

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 12 2019, 08:07 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 08:56 PM

Best price yet - Dansk - says it's for '74 914 carbureted......$56....

https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1974/porsche/914/engine_electrical/ignition_distributor.html

But also says it equals Bosche 009.....

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:04 PM

VERY INTERESTING.

A Pelican Parts forum discussion on this subject from 18 years ago.....seems the thinking on the 009 was the same way back then........

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-914-914-6-technical-forum/3314-distributors.html

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:11 PM

As you said, "The "009" mechanical advance dizzy is commonly sold at Bug shops and has a limited advance curve, designed for constant speed applications (non-automotive)."

Like generators........

From a Pelican Parts forum discussion 18 years ago....

QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Dec 10 2019, 08:56 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 12 2019, 09:17 PM

From the Pelican Parts forum post in 2001, the dizzy you want is 0 231 181 009!

You have a "GOOD" 009! Congrats! Avoiding jealousy....... ;-)

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 12 2019, 05:27 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 08:50 AM

Rich -

Sorry - I'm relatively new at this 914 thing and still learning. And my tendency - obvious to all - is to keep researching something ad infinitum.....

Meanwhile, back to, "What is a 009 Dizzy?"

Apparently there are THREE.

One works fine, and was an original on the FI system. It is a:

0 231 181 009 - or 022 985 205AA

The other is the one with the flat curve, like mine, that many say is not good on a 914:

0 231 178 009 - no other number is on my dizzy, so I don't know what its other number is....

Does anyone know the numbers on the 178 009 - or the third one?

Pelican lists 4 - 914 distributors - and the last one on the list, the 205AA, is indeed an 009 - but its the 181 009....the last on their list......

https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_timing/914_timing.htm

GN

QUOTE(914werke @ Dec 12 2019, 08:23 PM)

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 12 2019, 08:07 AM)

The ignitor I is prone to failure with KOEO for extended periods. The ignitor II is less touchy about that, has reverse polarity protection, is more stable at high rpm, and has adaptive dwell control.

UGH! search on any # of the 100 or more Pertronix threads. Its all been covered before.
I continue to use the 1847V "I" version. its cheap simple and the KOEO issue will only occur when the PU & magnet are aligned, so to avoid, DONT leave the key on & engine off

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 09:37 AM

GN-
I copied the dizzy part wrong. The good one is 231 181 009 / 022 905 205 AA. The VW part number is....905.... not "985".
Ray

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 10:05 AM

Ray -

Thanks - I did have the correct number.

Now - anyone know where I can get one??????

Before I put a WTB in the classified section?

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 10:37 AM)

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 10:13 AM

Go with WTB. That's where I found mine for $40. I think I will install a Pertronix II and be done with it. I have had a bad experience with Pertronix III dropping sparks at idle.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 13 2019, 10:31 AM

Hold on here - so we are putting down for future reference that

231-178-009 is BAD

but

231 181 009 is OK?

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 10:52 AM

So the 231 181 009 aka 022 905 205AA has a curve described by the 205AA part listed in the Pelican link below:

https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_timing/914_timing.htm

It looks like a decent curve with no flat spot, so yes I believe that 231 181 009 is a good dizzy for carbs or L-Jet since there are no FI contacts. It is an OE part for 1.8L.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 10:58 AM

I agree - research I have done confirms that......

That there are GOOD 009's and BAD 009's is, I believe, the origin of the confusion........

And I think it is GOOD that the 914 community be aware of this......

IMHO of course,

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 11:52 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 11:03 AM

What I'd like to know is where does the 022 905 205AA number come from? or all the other 205's listed on Pelican's list?

Is it marked on the dizzy just like the 0 231 178 009 on mine? Mine has no other number....

Enquiring minds want to know.......

GN

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 11:47 AM

FYI....

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 11:55 AM

AH-HA!

It's a VW Part number!

The 0 231 178 009 has neither the VW nor the 022#............

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 12:47 PM)

FYI....

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 12:28 PM

Wondering if at this point we shouldn't move this discussion to a Distributor thread???

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 02:38 PM

GN,
That's the Bosch number 231 181 009. The VW part number is the the right of the VW logo (022 905 205 AA)

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 13 2019, 02:55 PM

Here is a graph of the curve base on the Pelican table data for the VW 022 905 205AA aka Bosch 231 181 009

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 06:59 PM

NOW it makes sense!

Thank you!

On the Pelican list, they use the VW numbers.

Now - wondering what the Bosche numbers are for the following VW numbers, ending in:

205 D
205 E&F
205 J

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 03:38 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 13 2019, 07:04 PM

Wow. And someone said the problem with the 178 009 was too much advance (22 deg. max.), and the 181 009 is perfect - but has 30+ deg. advance?

Now, if I can just find one of these 205 AA/181 009's.......

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 03:55 PM)

Here is a graph of the curve base on the Pelican table data for the VW 022 905 205AA aka Bosch 231 181 009

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 14 2019, 06:29 AM

I can simplify this for you.

The factory 1.8L distributors have a vacuum advance on them.

The aftermarket "009" distributor does not.


Get a 1.8L distributor with a vacuum advance.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 14 2019, 07:24 AM

Clay -

I'd like to. Is this what one will cost? But I'm guessing the S is NOT the same as an AA.....

https://vwnos.com/022-905-205-s

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 14 2019, 07:43 AM

???????

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-Bosch-Ignition-Distributor-0231181009-JFUD4/401850308174?epid=15017879687&hash=item5d9025164e:g:GvEAAOSwGltazWC~

Should I grab it?

GN

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 14 2019, 09:18 AM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 14 2019, 07:43 AM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 14 2019, 10:52 AM

Clay -

Good ones seem to be hard to find, and I am happy with an average price -

Getting it....

Thanks for all the help.....

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 10:18 AM)

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 14 2019, 07:43 AM)

???????

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-Bosch-Ignition-Distributor-0231181009-JFUD4/401850308174?epid=15017879687&hash=item5d9025164e:g:GvEAAOSwGltazWC~

Should I grab it?

GN

It's a 1.8L distributor. The price is average. Up to you...

Posted by: rbzymek Dec 14 2019, 11:08 AM

GN,
If you go with Pertronix I would suggest ignitor II instead of ignitor III. My ignitor III would drop sparks at idle. I did a warranty exchange and had the same result so I am getting a refund. My ignitor II is due to arrive in a day or so.

Posted by: michael7810 Dec 14 2019, 02:54 PM

Sorry for the high Jack. Anyone have experience with Compufire? I’ve been working part time at a VW/Porsche repair shop for the past 6 months and we install a lot of compufires, at least 1 a week. So far I have not heard of any problems with them except occasionally the magnet ring (not sure what it’s called) contacts the rotor preventing it from going down far enough to get the cap on correctly. In those cases we grind a little off the bottom of the rotor with a belt sander and it’s good to go.

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 14 2019, 08:17 PM

For the record: Just found a photo of an 0 231 168 005, and it is a
022 905 205P...

Still looking for the 205 that is an 050........

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Dec 13 2019, 07:59 PM)

NOW it makes sense!

Thank you!

On the Pelican list, they use the VW numbers.

Now - wondering what the Bosche numbers are for the following VW numbers, ending in:

205 D
205 E&F
205 J

Michael - no worries about a hijack - good info for all here re: the Compufire......

GN

QUOTE(rbzymek @ Dec 13 2019, 03:38 PM)

GN,
That's the Bosch number 231 181 009. The VW part number is the the right of the VW logo (022 905 205 AA)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 18 2019, 07:50 PM

Clay -

Received my 1.8 dizzy with V.A. today. Will install it with the new Pertronix unit (1847A I think) as soon as engine is running on the old 009.....

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 18 2019, 09:26 PM

022 905 205 AB.

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Dec 18 2019, 09:52 PM

QUOTE(michael7810 @ Dec 14 2019, 12:54 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Dec 26 2019, 04:13 PM

Pertronix owns Compufire. They told me.

QUOTE(sportlicherFahrer @ Dec 18 2019, 10:52 PM)

Posted by: Gatornapper Jan 14 2020, 10:35 AM

Clay - Have this dizzy on my desk, not installed as engine still won't start.

Local 914 expert told me that vacuum advance dizzy will not work with carbs as there is not sufficient vacuum to activate the vacuum advance.

Did you know my 914 has IDF-44's? Your thoughts to his comment?

TIA,

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 14 2020, 12:22 PM

With carbs, you don't need the vacuum advance. The mechanical advance in the distributor has the correct advance curve for the carbs. Even on the stock L-Jet injection, they didn't use the advance side of the vacuum can, just the retard side. And that only retards it a couple of degrees.

Clay

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Jan 14 2020, 10:35 AM)

Clay - Have this dizzy on my desk, not installed as engine still won't start.

Local 914 expert told me that vacuum advance dizzy will not work with carbs as there is not sufficient vacuum to activate the vacuum advance.

Did you know my 914 has IDF-44's? Your thoughts to his comment?

TIA,

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

I can simplify this for you.

The factory 1.8L distributors have a vacuum advance on them.

The aftermarket "009" distributor does not.


Get a 1.8L distributor with a vacuum advance.

Posted by: Gatornapper Jan 14 2020, 12:56 PM

Clay -

Thanks for the quick reply and good news. Looking forward to getting this dizzy on once the car is running.

Since the vacuum unit will not be used - is there any reason that it cannot be removed? Understanding that the open section in the side of the distributor case would have to be closed and sealed? I could easily do that with a piece of fabricated sheet metal.....

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 14 2020, 01:22 PM)

With carbs, you don't need the vacuum advance. The mechanical advance in the distributor has the correct advance curve for the carbs. Even on the stock L-Jet injection, they didn't use the advance side of the vacuum can, just the retard side. And that only retards it a couple of degrees.

Clay

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Jan 14 2020, 10:35 AM)

Clay - Have this dizzy on my desk, not installed as engine still won't start.

Local 914 expert told me that vacuum advance dizzy will not work with carbs as there is not sufficient vacuum to activate the vacuum advance.

Did you know my 914 has IDF-44's? Your thoughts to his comment?

TIA,

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

I can simplify this for you.

The factory 1.8L distributors have a vacuum advance on them.

The aftermarket "009" distributor does not.


Get a 1.8L distributor with a vacuum advance.

Posted by: Gatornapper Mar 3 2020, 07:30 AM

Clay -

Put in this dizzy last week with Pertronix 1847V Ignitor and car ran perfectly!

For 10 min, until the Ignitor died........

Guess this post should be in this thread.........

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=342247&view=findpost&p=2791024

GN

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Dec 14 2019, 07:29 AM)

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 3 2020, 08:36 AM

Oh crud.

Not to give you a hard time but that is usually a fried unit. Could just be a bad one from the factory but...

Hope you get it sorted out and please do keep us posted.

Posted by: Gatornapper Mar 3 2020, 11:27 AM

Years in electronics myself - as Pertronix said, over-heating will cause label to turn yellow....no, it looked like new.....no signs of over-heating........

Will report on what happens. Meanwhile ordered a Hot Spark unit - always good to have a back-up anyway, and only $50.......

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Mar 3 2020, 09:36 AM)

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 3 2020, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Mar 3 2020, 11:27 AM)

Years in electronics myself - as Pertronix said, over-heating will cause label to turn yellow....no, it looked like new.....no signs of over-heating........

Will report on what happens. Meanwhile ordered a Hot Spark unit - always good to have a back-up anyway, and only $50.......

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Mar 3 2020, 09:36 AM)

Oh crud.

Not to give you a hard time but that is usually a fried unit. Could just be a bad one from the factory but...

Hope you get it sorted out and please do keep us posted.

Posted by: Gatornapper Mar 3 2020, 07:33 PM

Pertronix is saying that almost never happens. They will analyze the module and tell me whether it is covered by warranty.

But could be something in my ignition I guess.....now here comes the puzzling bit: Today I put new points & condenser in the dizzy that worked well last week - and no spark! Tried 2 different coils too. Yes, have 12v from ignition.

I mean, a points system is so simple - I am really baffled. Only had few minutes today to look at car, will dig deeper tomorrow. I was shocked it didn't start right up with the points......

Will be checking plug wires - Bosche Ultra - no one has ever heard of them - they were new in the box from the PO of the car, but dating back to about 2005.....

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Mar 3 2020, 07:31 PM)

QUOTE(Gatornapper @ Mar 3 2020, 11:27 AM)

Years in electronics myself - as Pertronix said, over-heating will cause label to turn yellow....no, it looked like new.....no signs of over-heating........

Will report on what happens. Meanwhile ordered a Hot Spark unit - always good to have a back-up anyway, and only $50.......

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Mar 3 2020, 09:36 AM)

Oh crud.

Not to give you a hard time but that is usually a fried unit. Could just be a bad one from the factory but...

Hope you get it sorted out and please do keep us posted.

Weird, sounds like manufacturing defect.

Posted by: yeahmag Mar 3 2020, 07:59 PM

Might want to ohm out your coil.

Posted by: malcolm2 May 27 2020, 12:41 PM

I am late to the party here, but I have used the HOT SPARK. It ran for about 30000 miles then got a hiccup. Pulled it and put another on.... It has gone 20000 miles and no problem. Hot spark has some voltage suggestions that you should dig into and verify that you are under. Their directions walk you right thru it. I keep a spare hotspark in my trunk. Like you said.... only $50.

Below is a link to my HICCUP thread. Thanks to TimND suggesting to use the timing light.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=317471&view=findpost&p=2535234

I ended up using a ballast resistor and some upgraded cool paste under the module to keep it cool. Like I said, all has been well since.