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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ PDK Transmission
Posted by: r_towle Apr 27 2015, 02:58 PM
From what I have learned, little at most....
PDK is a dual clutch transmission that basically shifts ahead of you and is waiting for a click of the paddle to flip from one clutch to the other....the secondary clutch is already engaged and ready to go on any given gear....but its thinking ahead, certainly based on software and accel or decel mode..
So, who else is doing a dual clutch like this?
Yes, this is a bit ADD (Scotty) but I am thinking ahead for when a clutch may no longer be a simple part of my daily routine.
Does subaru do this, or audi (something I can transplant) or any other car that would not cost me an arm and a leg to transplant?
And yes, I may want to flip the tranny, or possibly run it backwards....so mid or rear engine...
Rich
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 03:03 PM
The Audi DSG has been around for a few years. You can find them in TDI models originally and now in more applications.
Posted by: r_towle Apr 27 2015, 03:10 PM
thanks,
Looks like 2008 and on are available.
I wonder who knows how to flip these around???
Posted by: balljoint Apr 27 2015, 04:28 PM
We had one in the Golf TDI.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 05:56 PM
thanks,
Looks like 2008 and on are available.
I wonder who knows how to flip these around???
Why would you need to flip it around?
You could go with a Mendeola if you want paddle shift. If you want automatic, go with a Boxster triptronic.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 06:04 PM
Both the DSG and PDK are massive chunks weighing a few hundred pounds.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-A4-A5-A6-2014-2-0TDI-DSG-MULTITRONIC-GEARBOX-NDU-0K-MILES-90-DAY-WARRANTY-/261833209718?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf679b776
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-911-997-PDK-C2-gearbox-2008-13k-/140992218972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20d3ca875c
Posted by: Andyrew Apr 27 2015, 06:19 PM
thanks,
Looks like 2008 and on are available.
I wonder who knows how to flip these around???
Why would you need to flip it around?
You could go with a Mendeola if you want paddle shift. If you want automatic, go with a Boxster triptronic.
Mike, thats a R8....
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 06:39 PM
Mike, thats a R8....
I know! How awesome would that be in a 914?
Posted by: 914forme Apr 27 2015, 07:42 PM
I ran the VW Tip in a TDI, and it worked well when it work. Huge amounts of power and, I killed it. Went 6 speed then, never looked back.
Issues I had with the Tip, VW programming was not good, Audi sport mode reported to be better. I had paddle shifter setup, and never got the VW to shift in a consistent manner that made the car fun to drive. 6-speed, and a Perqoulin LSD made the car insane to drive.
Porsche Tip much better, PDK is even better, but the expense comes with weight. That being said, you can run faster lap times in the rain with a PDK or Tip than us clutch jockeys. I hate flappy paddles, the ill acting Tip was enough for me to get my knee fixed, work through the rehab and suck up the pain, just to drive a car I like.
I would install hand controls before, I give up on a clutch. BTW, they make electro servos that can drive the hydraulics to push the clutch in.
Posted by: r_towle Apr 27 2015, 08:41 PM
Sorry, thinking about a luxury, cruiser, 356
So rear engine...
Subaru powered
Automatic is going to be a reality for me at some point....and it takes me forever to get shit done, so I might as well start from the right place.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 08:44 PM
Then why not just use the PDK or triptronic out of a 911? Still a 200lb-300lb transmission.
Posted by: r_towle Apr 27 2015, 08:49 PM
Because I am cheap.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 27 2015, 09:10 PM
If you want a performance automatic, you can't be cheap. The VW Passat triptronic would be the cheapest way. For about $500 you can find them. You also need the TCM and wire harness. Then you need to figure out machine work to get a starter near the 914 position. You would also need to figure out a way to trick the TCM into working correctly.
The Passat trannies are basically Boxster trannies for a fraction of the price.
The best way to do this is to buy a 1997 Boxster and use the engine and tranny. Whoops, water cooled. Early Boxsters with automatics can be had for under $7k
Posted by: drive-ability Apr 28 2015, 01:14 AM
I am running a G-50 5 speed but really want an auto in my car. I'm trying to sort the car now but will be looking for a suitable auto. I would like to here more about
the options 
Posted by: bandjoey Apr 28 2015, 08:04 AM
Why dual clutch? Paddle shifters are becoming a standard on FWD sports sedans and some RWD. From Hyundai RWD used on 3.8 and 5.0L motors:
"TRANSMISSIONS
The automatic transmissions for both engines have 8-speeds, with an enhanced paddle-shifter design for the SHIFTRONIC® manual-shifting capability. In addition, the 8-speed automatic now precisely rev-matches engine RPM to the exact selected-gear speed, for smooth downshifts into corners and superb dynamic balance.
Both engines are mated to standard six-speed manual transmissions that feature new carbon synchronizer rings for smoother shift action and enhanced synchronizer durability. Each transmission has been specifically tuned to match its engine’s unique power and torque curve characteristics.
In addition to the steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters, each automatic offers shift capability via the shift lever according to individual driver preference. A clear LCD readout on the instrument panel shows the selected gear at all times for the driver."
Looks like paddle shift options are growing yearly.
Posted by: r_towle Apr 28 2015, 08:18 AM
Why dual clutch? Paddle shifters are becoming a standard on FWD sports sedans and some RWD. From Hyundai RWD used on 3.8 and 5.0L motors:
"TRANSMISSIONS
The automatic transmissions for both engines have 8-speeds, with an enhanced paddle-shifter design for the SHIFTRONIC® manual-shifting capability. In addition, the 8-speed automatic now precisely rev-matches engine RPM to the exact selected-gear speed, for smooth downshifts into corners and superb dynamic balance.
Both engines are mated to standard six-speed manual transmissions that feature new carbon synchronizer rings for smoother shift action and enhanced synchronizer durability. Each transmission has been specifically tuned to match its engine’s unique power and torque curve characteristics.
In addition to the steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters, each automatic offers shift capability via the shift lever according to individual driver preference. A clear LCD readout on the instrument panel shows the selected gear at all times for the driver."
Looks like paddle shift options are growing yearly.
automatics have torque converters, PDK is a dual clutch system, just a faster setup.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Apr 28 2015, 09:16 AM
Sccob paddle shifters are just CVTs that use the paddles to (sort of)lock the trans in gear. I dont like them. They act better in CVT mode.
Zach
Posted by: Chris H. Apr 28 2015, 09:43 AM
Weird. Friend of mine just bought a pretty new GTI and I was about to ask Mike about the feasibility of putting a trans like his 6 speed DSG in a 914...that thing shifts so smoothly and yet instantaneously! It's amazing. I assume the only way to get it to work perfectly would be to swap both the engine/trans with whatever you pull it out of? Audi A4 comes with a 7 speed....
Posted by: naro914 Apr 28 2015, 09:44 AM
Because I am cheap.
I don't think there will be a cheap way to do this. If we can't figure out a simple/cheap way to mate a manual Boxster trans to an air cooled engine, I can't even imagine how much more complicated this would be.
The PDK type trans is fully integrated with the engine management system, which is fully integrated with the engine (obviously). They work as a unit, not individually, so I'm not even sure it would be possible without doing both.
Honestly, the cheapest option would be to buy a very cheap Boxster Tiptronic (which can be had for under $10k) and use all of engine/trans/wiring/ECU for it.
Posted by: r_towle Apr 28 2015, 12:52 PM
Because I am cheap.
I don't think there will be a cheap way to do this. If we can't figure out a simple/cheap way to mate a manual Boxster trans to an air cooled engine, I can't even imagine how much more complicated this would be.
The PDK type trans is fully integrated with the engine management system, which is fully integrated with the engine (obviously). They work as a unit, not individually, so I'm not even sure it would be possible without doing both.
Honestly, the cheapest option would be to buy a very cheap Boxster Tiptronic (which can be had for under $10k) and use all of engine/trans/wiring/ECU for it.
A few things....
I am looking for a rear engine solution, but if a boxster tranny is available for a setup, I will design and figure out what needs to be done to bolt it to our motor.
Its a bell housing that needs to be swapped over and a clutch/pressure plate we need to use that works with the motor....
For the PDK, yes, its integrated with the car, but it has its own computer and its reading throttle body, speed, and a few other sensors that could all be setup using a different interface.
Again, I am NOT looking for the porsche PDK tranny...I am looking for something cheaper like a subaru/toyota/whatever to be able to create a solution that will actually work....
I know I could buy a PDK and at that point it makes sense to buy a late model 911 and call it a day...
That defeats the purpose.
Let me see if I can get my hands on a boxster tranny and get that settled because I am tired of waiting for someone to do it for us.
rich
Posted by: naro914 Apr 28 2015, 01:00 PM
Let me see if I can get my hands on a boxster tranny and get that settled because I am tired of waiting for someone to do it for us.
rich
Someone has...and it cost a fortune. That's why I decided not to do it. The guys at Powertech did it for a customer a few years back. I have a copy of the receipt/work order and I talked to Keith over there. He said it was much harder than even they thought....when you see a line item that says "Discount.....$15,100" you can only imagine what the total bill was....
Posted by: Andyrew Apr 28 2015, 01:23 PM
Mike, thats a R8....
I know! How awesome would that be in a 914?
I've wondered for a long time how one could possibly make a driveshaft go through the engine like Audi but never come up with a good economical solution
Posted by: Andyrew Apr 28 2015, 01:24 PM
Because I am cheap.
I don't think there will be a cheap way to do this. If we can't figure out a simple/cheap way to mate a manual Boxster trans to an air cooled engine, I can't even imagine how much more complicated this would be.
The PDK type trans is fully integrated with the engine management system, which is fully integrated with the engine (obviously). They work as a unit, not individually, so I'm not even sure it would be possible without doing both.
Honestly, the cheapest option would be to buy a very cheap Boxster Tiptronic (which can be had for under $10k) and use all of engine/trans/wiring/ECU for it.
A few things....
I am looking for a rear engine solution, but if a boxster tranny is available for a setup, I will design and figure out what needs to be done to bolt it to our motor.
Its a bell housing that needs to be swapped over and a clutch/pressure plate we need to use that works with the motor....
For the PDK, yes, its integrated with the car, but it has its own computer and its reading throttle body, speed, and a few other sensors that could all be setup using a different interface.
Again, I am NOT looking for the porsche PDK tranny...I am looking for something cheaper like a subaru/toyota/whatever to be able to create a solution that will actually work....
I know I could buy a PDK and at that point it makes sense to buy a late model 911 and call it a day...
That defeats the purpose.
Let me see if I can get my hands on a boxster tranny and get that settled because I am tired of waiting for someone to do it for us.
rich
Rear engine solution? Grab a FWD setup and flip the diff... A3's used a DSG IIRC.
Posted by: Andyrew Apr 28 2015, 01:27 PM
Why dual clutch? Paddle shifters are becoming a standard on FWD sports sedans and some RWD. From Hyundai RWD used on 3.8 and 5.0L motors:
"TRANSMISSIONS
The automatic transmissions for both engines have 8-speeds, with an enhanced paddle-shifter design for the SHIFTRONIC® manual-shifting capability. In addition, the 8-speed automatic now precisely rev-matches engine RPM to the exact selected-gear speed, for smooth downshifts into corners and superb dynamic balance.
Both engines are mated to standard six-speed manual transmissions that feature new carbon synchronizer rings for smoother shift action and enhanced synchronizer durability. Each transmission has been specifically tuned to match its engine’s unique power and torque curve characteristics.
In addition to the steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters, each automatic offers shift capability via the shift lever according to individual driver preference. A clear LCD readout on the instrument panel shows the selected gear at all times for the driver."
Looks like paddle shift options are growing yearly.
My wife's Genesis coupe is a 2.0T 8 speed auto with this paddle shifter.
Nothing close to a DSG in terms of shifting speed, and its got horrible tech (Wont hold a gear, cant tune it or make it shift harder). But its a wonderful trani that can hold a LOT of power.. But its a RWD trani, Nothing that can be used in a mid or rear application.
Posted by: Chris H. Apr 28 2015, 03:20 PM
Because I am cheap.
I don't think there will be a cheap way to do this. If we can't figure out a simple/cheap way to mate a manual Boxster trans to an air cooled engine, I can't even imagine how much more complicated this would be.
The PDK type trans is fully integrated with the engine management system, which is fully integrated with the engine (obviously). They work as a unit, not individually, so I'm not even sure it would be possible without doing both.
Honestly, the cheapest option would be to buy a very cheap Boxster Tiptronic (which can be had for under $10k) and use all of engine/trans/wiring/ECU for it.
A few things....
I am looking for a rear engine solution, but if a boxster tranny is available for a setup, I will design and figure out what needs to be done to bolt it to our motor.
Its a bell housing that needs to be swapped over and a clutch/pressure plate we need to use that works with the motor....
For the PDK, yes, its integrated with the car, but it has its own computer and its reading throttle body, speed, and a few other sensors that could all be setup using a different interface.
Again, I am NOT looking for the porsche PDK tranny...I am looking for something cheaper like a subaru/toyota/whatever to be able to create a solution that will actually work....
I know I could buy a PDK and at that point it makes sense to buy a late model 911 and call it a day...
That defeats the purpose.
Let me see if I can get my hands on a boxster tranny and get that settled because I am tired of waiting for someone to do it for us.
rich
Rear engine solution? Grab a FWD setup and flip the diff... A3's used a DSG IIRC.
That's the same one the GTI has. That thing is AMAZING. 6 speed. The A4 has a similar 7 speed. I'd totally re-swap my setup for that gearbox, that's how good it is. The engine's not bad either...
. Sounds like it might be above my technical skill level...
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 28 2015, 04:01 PM
034 Motorsport told me they could build a DSG that would fit in my 914. I'm not sure of the cost but I bet it would be North of $5k.
Posted by: Andyrew Apr 28 2015, 04:09 PM
A DSG would be great for a big turbo application, but I have heard issues with the trans holding high HP levels..
I think the electronics there are above my mental capacity....
Posted by: drive-ability Apr 29 2015, 12:57 AM
I wonder how the PDK or others like it modulate taking off from a stop ? Surely some kind of PWM electronic setup. Just saying unless I just don't have the PDK operation
understood.
With my car an auto with 5 or 6 gears would free me up to drive the car. Things happen fast and these days I'm a bit slower 
People always talk about the HP/torque eating up the transmissions (auto) but in newer 911 models pack plenty of power and seem to do well.
Posted by: Mike Bellis Apr 29 2015, 07:57 AM
I wonder how the PDK or others like it modulate taking off from a stop ? Surely some kind of PWM electronic setup. Just saying unless I just don't have the PDK operation
understood.
With my car an auto with 5 or 6 gears would free me up to drive the car. Things happen fast and these days I'm a bit slower
People always talk about the HP/torque eating up the transmissions (auto) but in newer 911 models pack plenty of power and seem to do well.
I drove a 2015 Cayman S with a PDK it was FUCHING awesome!
Put it in Auto and it shifts for you. It hung on to the shift points a little and was quite sporty.
Throw it in manual and you paddle through the gears. Gear to gear shift is very quick. when you come to a stop, it shifts into first automatically similar to any other manual shifting automatic.
I don't really understand you modulate question. What ever the PDK does is seamless. I would absolutely buy one if given the chance.
Posted by: Mueller Apr 29 2015, 11:06 AM
Let me see if I can get my hands on a boxster tranny and get that settled because I am tired of waiting for someone to do it for us.
rich
I found the Boxster drawing,
....edit...found some 3D models of some Porsche air-cooled transmissions.
https://grabcad.com/library/porsche-g50-space-model-1
Is is safe to say that a G50 would bolt up to a Type IV?
Boxster dims below
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