Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Type 4 Race Engine
Posted by: Racer Chris May 1 2015, 11:21 AM
This one looks a little odd.
That's because someone squeezed it into an Elva Sports Racing chassis that used to run with a Lotus twin cam engine.
Posted by: r_towle May 1 2015, 01:24 PM
that is actually silly smart using a HF trailer to start with....then you can move it out of the way....
Rich
Posted by: Racer Chris May 1 2015, 01:35 PM
That used to be the rig my Volksair compressor was mounted on.
Posted by: URY914 May 1 2015, 01:55 PM
Was it running those trick headers when it was in the car? 
Posted by: flyer86d May 1 2015, 02:08 PM
Did that motor come out of a Royale RP4? A vintage race friend restored a Royale RP4 that had a 2 liter 914 engine. I had it in my shop about 10 years ago and then he sold it to a fellow in Connecticut. My friend had Hank Clarkson build the engine. It dynoed at 200 HP and 175 lb-ft of torque.
Posted by: eric9144 May 1 2015, 02:12 PM
that is actually silly smart using a HF trailer to start with....then you can move it out of the way....
Rich
Sshhhh! That's actually the Elva with the body off...
Posted by: stugray May 1 2015, 03:15 PM
What carbs are those?
I have never seen such large secondaries/velocity stacks whatever those are.
Posted by: r_towle May 1 2015, 03:51 PM
What carbs are those?
I have never seen such large secondaries/velocity stacks whatever those are.
might be IDA carbs....
Posted by: Racer Chris May 1 2015, 05:37 PM
What carbs are those?
I have never seen such large secondaries/velocity stacks whatever those are.
48IDA
The engine is a 95 x 71 2 liter putting out around 200 HP.
Posted by: Racer Chris May 1 2015, 05:40 PM
Was it running those trick headers when it was in the car?
The headers supplied by the owner don't fit on my test stand.
We're not dynoing it, only proving to the owner that it's healthy.
When it came to us the crank was seized, which turned out to be from a bent crankshaft.
Posted by: stugray May 1 2015, 10:21 PM
The engine is a 95 x 71 2 liter putting out around 200 HP.
Care to share any other engine specs?
I would love to know what it takes to get 200 HP out of a 2L type IV.
I was commenting on another thread recently with Jake about breaking the 100 hp/L mark, and I didnt think it could be done with a type IV.
Greater than 200hp in a type IV, sure, but I assumed huge displacement.
Posted by: brant May 1 2015, 11:19 PM
My engine guru has a set of the Ida's on a 1600 type 4 (industrial block) super vee. Lola.
Very cool motor!
Posted by: GregAmy May 2 2015, 06:30 AM
I would guess lots of RPMs...that's how my Honda race engine does it (sans "torque").
Chris is building an engine for my ex-ITA 914; I'm expecting at least that much
(no, not really)...GA
Posted by: davep May 2 2015, 07:36 AM
A 95mm bore is a bit of an odd size. What can you tell us about the pistons & cylinders?
Posted by: Dave_Darling May 2 2015, 09:49 AM
I was commenting on another thread recently with Jake about breaking the 100 hp/L mark, and I didnt think it could be done with a type IV.
Race motors have been doing it for years. The FP guys were running 1.8 liter motors making anything from 160HP to just about 200 HP, depending on if they wanted to refresh the motor every season, or every weekend. There are no mysteries to it--they have high compression, rev high, have reduced parasitic losses, and lots and lots of money in the heads.
The mystery is how you get 100 hp/L out of a streetable engine that lasts a good long time.
--DD
Posted by: maf914 May 2 2015, 02:02 PM
Aren't those the kind of cast aluminum valve covers that everyone says not to use? 
I have a pair that I've never tried. 
Posted by: Racer Chris May 2 2015, 03:16 PM
Aren't those the kind of cast aluminum valve covers that everyone says not to use?
I have a pair that I've never tried.
These are real Claude's Buggies valve covers with their custom gaskets.
They're a better quality than the other cast covers I've worked with.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 4 2015, 07:49 AM
The engine is a 95 x 71 2 liter putting out around 200 HP.
Care to share any other engine specs?
I would love to know what it takes to get 200 HP out of a 2L type IV.
I was commenting on another thread recently with Jake about breaking the 100 hp/L mark, and I didnt think it could be done with a type IV.
Greater than 200hp in a type IV, sure, but I assumed huge displacement.
Its actually easier to reach 100HP/ liter with a smaller T4 engine. I've built several 200HP 2 liter engines in the past. They are absolutely worthless below 5,000 RPM, though.
I have a 71X95 now that makes 200HP, I just need to get it on the dyno and decide what to do with it.
Posted by: Series9 May 4 2015, 07:57 AM
I love it!
Posted by: r_towle May 4 2015, 08:00 AM
I've built several 200HP 2 liter engines in the past. They are absolutely worthless below 5,000 RPM, though.
This is the difference from what I have touched.
I had a car that could not get on the trailer until well over 5k revs...
so, while it may make lots of HP, its not drivable in normal situations.
rich
Posted by: Jake Raby May 4 2015, 10:36 AM
I've built several 200HP 2 liter engines in the past. They are absolutely worthless below 5,000 RPM, though.
This is the difference from what I have touched.
I had a car that could not get on the trailer until well over 5k revs...
so, while it may make lots of HP, its not drivable in normal situations.
rich
Which is why horsepower is, and always has been, overrated.
Posted by: McMark May 4 2015, 10:56 AM
This is the difference from what I have touched.
I had a car that could not get on the trailer until well over 5k revs...
so, while it may make lots of HP, its not drivable in normal situations.
Which is why horsepower is, and always has been, overrated.
HALLELUJAH!!!
Posted by: stugray May 4 2015, 11:57 AM
I'm pretty sure that if you asked 10 race car drivers to pick from two race cars and the only thing they know about them is the HP, they would all pick the car with the higher HP rating.....
So is HP the only thing that matters in racing - No.
But I am fairly certain that if everything else is the same (drivers, suspension, tires), the higher HP car usually wins... 
But I agree a car that puts out insane HP is useless if it cant put that power down in a predictable and repeatable fashion.
Still curious what that particular engine has in it.
I know Jake's first answer for higher output engines is "Nickies", but I cant tell if that engine has them from the pic.
Forged Pistons - guessing yes (brand?)
Larger valves? I have read where Jake says 'minimal benefit' for a 2.0L
Flow matched heads - but of course
Stock forged crank or Billet - ?
H or I-beam rods - ?
Radical Cam (valve lift & duration numbers?)
Roller rockers?
Lightened crank/rods/Flywheel? - can help with "apparent HP" but what about real numbers on a dyno?
Compression Ratio?
Twin Plugs - ? (dist in picture says no)
Posted by: Kansas 914 May 4 2015, 01:01 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you asked 10 race car drivers to pick from two race cars and the only thing they know about them is the HP, they would all pick the car with the higher HP rating.....
So is HP the only thing that matters in racing - No.
But I am fairly certain that if everything else is the same (drivers, suspension, tires), the higher HP car usually wins...
But I agree a car that puts out insane HP is useless if it cant put that power down in a predictable and repeatable fashion.
Still curious what that particular engine has in it.
I know Jake's first answer for higher output engines is "Nickies", but I cant tell if that engine has them from the pic.
Forged Pistons - guessing yes (brand?)
Larger valves? I have read where Jake says 'minimal benefit' for a 2.0L
Flow matched heads - but of course
Stock forged crank or Billet - ?
H or I-beam rods - ?
Radical Cam (valve lift & duration numbers?)
Roller rockers?
Lightened crank/rods/Flywheel? - can help with "apparent HP" but what about real numbers on a dyno?
Compression Ratio?
Twin Plugs - ? (dist in picture says no)
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: Racer Chris May 4 2015, 01:32 PM
...
Still curious what that particular engine has in it.
I know Jake's first answer for higher output engines is "Nickies", but I cant tell if that engine has them from the pic.
Forged Pistons - guessing yes (brand?)
Larger valves? I have read where Jake says 'minimal benefit' for a 2.0L
Flow matched heads - but of course
Stock forged crank or Billet - ?
H or I-beam rods - ?
Radical Cam (valve lift & duration numbers?)
Roller rockers?
Lightened crank/rods/Flywheel? - can help with "apparent HP" but what about real numbers on a dyno?
Compression Ratio?
Twin Plugs - ? (dist in picture says no)
Nickies - No
JE domed pistons
Yes larger valves, I didn't write down the measurement but I would guess 44 x 38.
We took out a damaged counterweighted crank and installed a stock crank.
Pauter rods
Cam - Web 86C (or similar)
Stock rockers
Lightened flywheel, 4 puck clutch
11.5:1
Single plugs.
Dry sumped
Posted by: aircooledtechguy May 4 2015, 01:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you asked 10 race car drivers to pick from two race cars and the only thing they know about them is the HP, they would all pick the car with the higher HP rating.....
So is HP the only thing that matters in racing - No.
But I am fairly certain that if everything else is the same (drivers, suspension, tires), the higher HP car usually wins...
But I agree a car that puts out insane HP is useless if it cant put that power down in a predictable and repeatable fashion.
Still curious what that particular engine has in it.
I know Jake's first answer for higher output engines is "Nickies", but I cant tell if that engine has them from the pic.
Forged Pistons - guessing yes (brand?)
Larger valves? I have read where Jake says 'minimal benefit' for a 2.0L
Flow matched heads - but of course
Stock forged crank or Billet - ?
H or I-beam rods - ?
Radical Cam (valve lift & duration numbers?)
Roller rockers?
Lightened crank/rods/Flywheel? - can help with "apparent HP" but what about real numbers on a dyno?
Compression Ratio?
Twin Plugs - ? (dist in picture says no)
Really?? You all expect a detailed answer about an engine recipe??
Do you ask David Copperfield or Penn & Teller how they do their tricks?? You don't become and stay successful telling the world your trade secrets. . .
Posted by: Jeff Hail May 4 2015, 05:51 PM
As my good friend Mac Tilton says "knowledge is meant to be shared, unless it is a competitor then throw a tarp over it".
Posted by: r_towle May 4 2015, 06:27 PM
Horsepower is a marketing term.
Torque is what matters, and the when and how much, for how long......it's all torque.
But, these super high HP motors are scary fun to drive....
When all the power is between 5-7k rpms, you need to be WIDE awake to drive it effectively, and it can be a total hoot to do it.
For me, now, lower down in the rpm range power is more fun.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)