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Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 03:18 PM

Car had been acting wierd since the last fillup, especially when starting from a dead stop. Unfortunately, I put 89 grade ethanol in it, without reading the pump. (Best grade they had.) I figured that the problem might be minor vaporlock or just poor performance from the crap gas.

Well, on the way to work, the car was acting worse. Several times the car just stalled at an intersection, and I'd have to give it lots of gas to start. Starting was very hard.

At lunch, the car wouldn't start. I noticed the outside of the right carb was dripping. Checked hoses, and tried to start again. Engine started to turn - then stopped abruptly. Let it set, and it finally started.

I went to get gas and stop by BK for lunch. I filled it up to dilute the ethanol, which I still believed was most of the problem. In the drivethru, it stalled twice. I couldn't get it to start the second time, so I pushed my 914 through the BK drivethrough. How embarrassing.

Well, I get it out of the way, and try to start it again. Same "locked" problem. Give it a few minutes, and the starter clicks once. Hmmm. Battery dead? Try to start one more time, and now the starter whirrs freely, like the gear was broken off the end.

Here's my hypothesis/diagnosis:

Right side carb has a needle valve stuck open. Would cause poor running problems at low RPMs. When the key is set in the run position, it starts to fill 1 or more cylinders with fuel. Starting the car, I had a partial hydrolock. I didn't ever try to push-start the car down a hill or anything. The resistance from the engine damaged the starter.

Thoughts? Comments? Bets?

-Rusty

Posted by: need4speed Jun 5 2003, 04:39 PM

clogged idle circuit?

Don't know how to explain the starter issue.
It's either some sort of cascade failure, like you described, or a coincidence, or maybe you just drained your battery past the point where the solenoid was functioning fully. . . (keep those fingers crossed).

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 05:01 PM

I thought about the battery.. but I have a Vortex that's about a million CCA. While I'm checking it out, I'm going to clean connections, etc. That stuff can never hurt.

-Rusty
out to work on the car

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 5 2003, 05:06 PM

ethanol? where'd ye buy that? what auto would use that?- a top fuel dragster?

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 05:16 PM

I pulled over for gas at a local station - most Midwest gas stations carry it. Anyways, there were two grades at the pump. 87 and 89.

I didn't notice the 89 was a ethanol (10%) blend.

-Rusty

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 5 2003, 05:46 PM

The 10% blend shouldn't hurt anything, unless they're pumping the bottom of the tank and it was full of water. That doesn't mean it can't be the gas because I've got some skanky stuff before myself.
Our Sunoco 94 and Pioneer 93 octane are both 10% blends and I've never had a problem.

Did your distributor get knocked some how? Did you tighten it last time?

Also you could check you accelerator pump diaphragms, if they were the real old type the ethanol could have damaged them. Could be part of your leak.

Hydrolocked? Did it rain? I don't know about the /6 webers but the 4 have a choke enrichment circuit that if the get accidentally opened can wash down the cylinder with fuel.

Just some guesses. Good luck!

Posted by: Carl Jun 5 2003, 05:55 PM

Lawrence,
I think you're stuck needle valve is quite likely. I had a similar problem in my /6 on a Roadglue drive. The engine didn't fill with fuel but the throat of the carb was VERY wet. The engine would run if the RPM was >3000. Below that the engine missed & smoked badly. Luckily, the needle valve unstuck itself after a few minutes driving on the freeway.

Your hydrolock/broken starter gear seems pretty logical to me.

Good Luck,
Carl

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 5 2003, 07:30 PM

It's raining like cats and dogs in Kansas. I'm almost dry.

It only took 30 minutes to pull the starter. Thank God that I had the factory manuals. I'd have been really pissed to struggle for HOURS to find out that the upper bolt requires an 8mm allen head socket.

I forgot to disconnect the battery. Can you sing along with me? "You light up my liiiiiiiife.... AHHHHHHH!"

Starter gear looks a bit worn, but not too bad. Flywheel is pretty chewed up, as far as I could feel in the hole. I've never had the starter or transmission off, so some of this is news to me. Looks like I'll probably need a replacement. I'll take the starter in for testing in the morning.

It's too wet to go out and take a picture, so I'll do that in the morning, too.

Still no answer on the REAL problem... too wet to pull the air cleaners.

-Rusty

Posted by: krk Jun 5 2003, 09:11 PM

Dude,

I'm bummed to hear it. I'm with Carl on this. I picked up a tank of questionable gas when I brought mine down from Vancouver, and it took a pretty thorough cleaning to get the crap out of them. (the carbs, that is) I was glad it ran fine at wot, or we would have had an interesting time -- ain't a whole lot of stuff up by Mt Shasta.... Anyway, good hunting!

kim.

Posted by: Qarl Jun 5 2003, 09:38 PM

Bummer Lawrence. It's been raining for a while here in Florida too.

Hopefully you'll figure out your problem.

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Posted by: si2t3m Jun 5 2003, 10:01 PM

Hi Lawrence,

I'd check the dizzy bolt first. Dizzy bolt might got a bit loose, and knocked the dizzy with alot of advance. So when you try to start it, it sparks too soon and the engine wants to go backwards. This could explain why the car ran like crap.

Might of picked up some crap in the gas, crap got to the needle valves (on or more) and it's dumping lots of fuel in the cylinders because one or more is opened How are you filtering the gas getting to the carbs?

Hopefully it's just #1.

It still doesn't explain the starter issue. I'm clueless on that one.

Marc-André

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 06:53 AM

By the light of day...

Flywheel is toast. Several teeth are broken off.

Anyone got a /6 flywheel they dont need?


-Rusty


MA: Filter is before the fuel pump, changed a few weeks ago. I'll be changing the existing filter again this weekend, but I'm going to add one after the pump, too. Gotta get some good light to see the flywheel, and have the starter checked.

Posted by: MJHanna Jun 6 2003, 07:05 AM

Pull your spark plugs to make sure one cylinders is not full of gas and that the engine turns over freely.

Posted by: krk Jun 6 2003, 07:06 AM

Broken teeth? Ouch!!!

kim.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 07:11 AM

Yep. That was my thought, exactly. But more importantly - I need to diagnose why it happend... either a float or a needle valve, is my guess.

Posted by: si2t3m Jun 6 2003, 08:17 AM

Sad new regarding the flywheel.

This might be an option if you can't locate a good used flywheel: For my 3.0L conversion, i bought a /4 flywheel, sent it off to KEP. They cut out the center part of the flywheel, and replace it with on properly drilled to mate to the engine of choice.

I think that the /4, /6 or early 911's flywheel are identical in size except for the bolt patern to attach to the crank.

HTH

Marc-André

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 09:54 AM

New 914/6 flywheels are available, ~275.00 at Paragon. Actually, I'm kind of encouraged, in a twisted kind of way.

Since all signs point to hydrolock due to excessive fuel - I'd rather have a chipped flywheel than a bent rod or holed piston.

-Rusty

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 10:05 AM

Here are some pictures of the worn starter gear. I don't think it's too bad to *not* reuse.


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Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 10:05 AM

pic 2


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Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 10:06 AM

pic 3


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Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 6 2003, 10:22 AM

The starter looks fine but have it tested. Broken teeth!! damn, you really know how to crank on the starter!!
Did you find the problem in the carbs?

I hate carbs!
Geoff

Posted by: Carl Jun 6 2003, 10:23 AM

Lawrence,
The gear on the starter looks OK. If there are no other problems you should be able to use it again.

A suggestion on your plans for a filter - avoid putting one on the suction side of the fuel pump. Pumps can create pressure well and force fuel through a filter element. Fuel pumps don't suck well and any obstruction, even water from the gas tank, can create enough resistance in the filter that the fuel pump can't overcome it. You're much more likely to starve the engine. At this point, starving the engine may be the least of your worries but the next time you're climbing the hills of Kansas you don't want to short your baby of gas.

Carl

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 10:30 AM

Hi Carl! Good to see you posting!

I've never heard that about fuel filters, but it makes sense. I'm using aftermarket fuel pumps and filters. I'm going to dig into the factory manuals and see how they did it.

Hey Geoff... no answer on the carbs. It was raining pretty hard last night, so I couldn't mess with them. I'll check the needle valves. If I find them gunked up or seized, then I'll assume that's the problem. If not, then I'll go deeper and check the floats.

-Rusty

P.S. The starter is a Bosch reman. I'm wondering if it's one of those 700 ft/lb Hi-Torque starters. Any way to tell?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 6 2003, 12:06 PM

Wow the weather is a little different here, its in the high 80's and the sun is out until 10pm so you can get lots of work done on the car.
Geoff

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 01:21 PM

Must be nice... I don't remember sun till 10pm when I lived in Tacoma. I remember lots of rain, though.

-Rusty

Posted by: Brian_Boss Jun 6 2003, 01:28 PM

I agree the starter pinion doesn't look too bad in the picture but if I were spending $300 on a flywheel I would be nervous about using it.

Is there a friendly alternator/starter shop in your area that would just stick a fresh pinion on for $20 if the starter is otherwise good? Just a thought.

Too bad the ring gear doesn't come off the flywheel.

BB

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 05:31 PM

Well, there is good news. The starter checked out. In fact, I think I have the "high torque" version.

The guy put it on the bench, and it damned near jumped off. He had to strap it dow tighter, and even remarked "Wow, that's got a lot of power."

So, next, to pull the transmission and see if I need to do a clutch job while I'm in there.

-Rusty

Posted by: ChrisReale Jun 6 2003, 05:56 PM

Rusty, you gonna turn Dirk Wright on us?

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 05:59 PM

Turn?

While I'm replacing the flywheel:

reseal tranny
rebuild CV joints, replace boots
powdercoat entire suspension
new shocks
probably new suspension bushings
realignment

Dirk Wright? Not me....

Posted by: Gint Jun 6 2003, 06:02 PM

Uuuhhmmmmm.... Rusty, the entire suspension?

I spent more than one weekend getting that done.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 06:07 PM

That was my plan... I'll have time to clean the parts up and sandblast them prior to doing the powdercoating.

Am I unrealistic?

Posted by: Gint Jun 6 2003, 06:10 PM

You going to blast them before you get here?

THat's easy enough then.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 6 2003, 06:11 PM

I can. Or at least get a good start on them.

If your bride has other plans that weekend, I can put together a backup.

Let me know.

Posted by: Gint Jun 6 2003, 06:17 PM

I dunno yet.

My point was, blasting an entire front rear suspension AND powder coating is a good amount of work to try and get done in two days.

Screww this. Laptop typing sucks. Call me when you get a chance.