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Posted by: RobW Jun 13 2015, 01:40 AM

I tested the battery tonight and its putting out a charge. The ABM from what I can tell, has a new engine harness, MSD, JWest fuse panel, a blasted interior, H4s with relays, and a newerish stock board.

With nothing "on", hooking up the battery seems to "arc" the front headlight motors, or something up front.

Transmission ground is on, battery (-) is ground, front turn signal grounds are attached.

Nothing at the ignition, although with light switch "on" no "arc" but no light. Ignition switch seems loose. Wiper handle is very loose.

I bought a color diagram, but I'm color blind.

Is there a method to trace electricity step by step from the battery out through the harness, into the dash, and out to the lights?

I need to get this ABM on the road!

Posted by: 76-914 Jun 13 2015, 07:57 AM

Rob, Pull one fuse at a time until it doesn't arc when reconnecting the cable. Or, use a meter to check for amp pull. Same result. Once you've identified the circuit start tracing it down. GL w/ the color blindness thing. I'm hue blind. Used to mix up my socks all the time. Now I just wear white socks.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jun 13 2015, 08:42 AM

Verifying the entire systems can take several days/weekends. It's most challenging with color blindness. Sounds like you need a build party!

Or, I can wait until you are totally frustrated and buy the car off you super cheap...

Posted by: Andyrew Jun 13 2015, 08:48 AM

That was the plan I had with your car....

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jun 13 2015, 09:06 AM

Posted by: Tom Jun 13 2015, 01:29 PM

Being color blind and not having a full understanding of what you are working on can lead to trouble. Get Mike to come over and fix that electrical system. You will learn while he is helping you and he understands how to keep it safe.
The first step when you hook something up electrically and it "arcs" is to remove power and leave it removed until the problem has been defined and repaired.
Tom
Electrical/electronics for 49+ years and red/green color blind. There are ways to overcome being color blind and still be effective.

Posted by: RobW Jun 16 2015, 06:42 PM

So black is your always on power right? What is always on in the front trunk? Plus, if the fuel pump in the front trunk was not connected to anything could this be my arc without ignition?

Posted by: Mike Bellis Jun 16 2015, 08:32 PM

If your fuel pump was not connected and the wire were not touching anything, that is not the cause of your spark.

Red is constant power at the headlight relay. Not black. Black from your ignition switch is "hot while cranking".

When's the build party?

Posted by: r_towle Jun 17 2015, 09:48 AM

pull every fuse, see if the batter sparks.
If YES, you have an aftermarket circuit that you need to find.

IF NO
Add one fuse at a time, repeat test till you find the culprit.

rich

Posted by: Kansas 914 Jun 17 2015, 10:41 AM

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 17 2015, 11:58 AM

There are, sadly, some unfused circuits. Even on cars with unmodified wiring. I don't remember what they are offhand, but digging through the wiring diagrams will show them. Look for lines coming straight from the battery that don't go through any "Sx" (where x is a number) before getting to some component.

--DD

Posted by: Kansas 914 Jun 17 2015, 01:07 PM

DD - I didn't know that about unfused circuits - or if it was mentioned before I chose to forget it as it is scary.

We should document that here for future reference. That is important to know.

Thanks!

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jun 17 2015, 03:04 PM

Here is my unfused circuits list for a 1974 914.


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Posted by: Mike Bellis Jun 17 2015, 06:38 PM

The 4 red wires (some have 5) connected to the positive battery terminal are the unfused circuits. One goes to the ignition switch. One goes to the fuse panel. One goes to the relay board (some have 2) and one to the alternator.

I think Tom was selling an add on fuse panel for this location. If you fuse these near the battery (within 18 inches) you will be safe.

Posted by: Kansas 914 Jun 19 2015, 08:38 AM

Jeff and Mike

Thanks for the info it is most helpful. Cheers!

Posted by: RobW Jul 13 2015, 10:58 PM

Update: I added fuses to the fuse box... that should help.

Installed the CDR220 but theres quite a few stray wires under the dash. Will dig some more this weekend.

Posted by: RobW Jul 13 2015, 11:02 PM

If there are unfused circuits, does that mean there will be power drawn for testing for shorts.. i.e. the clock?

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 13 2015, 11:16 PM

Nope. Clock is on Fuse 11. You have a factory wiring schematic and know how to read it right?

Posted by: RobW Jul 13 2015, 11:58 PM

Yes, thanks. I got the color laminated one. Just not in front of me right now. I'll post picts of the stray wires to see if the right places can be attached.

Posted by: walterolin Jul 14 2015, 02:48 AM

Color laminated one is easier to follow, but be aware it has some missing elements. For example the internals of the door switches are not drawn. You will need the Haynes schematics to use together with the color version.

Posted by: RobW Jul 14 2015, 01:42 PM

The unfused items require ignition switch or lights on right?

I should be able to get car off with ignition off, lights off, and doors closed right?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 14 2015, 03:17 PM

Well, there will still be power to many of those things. Not necessarily power going through them and out the other side, but power to them indeed.

--DD

Posted by: RobW Jul 14 2015, 04:05 PM

Thanks Dave.

I'm trying to run this type of test to check for shorts:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLrTjeb9TY

Any thoughts on other methods? Thx

Posted by: RobW Jul 17 2015, 10:35 PM

So I added all the fuses and put an inline 7.5 amp fuse in the ground line.

100% ignition off, a connection makes the light motors pop on. WTH? The "arc" mentioned earlier was actually the motors...

Any ideas?

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2015, 10:41 PM

Your headlight switch may be wired wrong or busted. We can have a wiring diagram tech session at my farewell BBQ.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2015, 10:44 PM

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Posted by: RobW Jul 18 2015, 09:09 AM

That'd be cool unless the BBQ is over my cooking wires.

Posted by: RobW Jul 18 2015, 09:10 AM

Thanks for the Sandbox retread Robbie!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 18 2015, 11:52 AM

Either the headlight switch or the headlight motors are wired wrong. There's always power going to the motors, I believe, or at least to the relays. There are microswitches in the housing of the motor (actually on the little gear train I think?) that open and close when the light is open and closed. Plugging stuff in wrong can cause them to keep going...

--DD

Posted by: RobW Jul 19 2015, 04:03 PM

Some more testing with the inline fuse to ground. The front marker lenses come on and the headlights pop up and stop. Putting them down manually makes them pop up again.

Turning the headlights on does nothing but the rear lamps turn on.

Fogs don't turn on. No turn signal, but the marker light gets brighter.

Ignition on: no change.

I'm wondering if my ignition switch is busted or not plugged in right.

Tried a quick crank, no crank....

Left it on for 2 mins or so, no burning no fires....

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 20 2015, 01:25 PM

Hey! It was my sandbox retread!

Posted by: RobW Jul 20 2015, 03:19 PM

That's Reno? Figures....

Posted by: blackmoon Jul 20 2015, 04:14 PM

Yes, wiring tech!

Posted by: RobW Jul 22 2015, 11:16 AM

Are these two wires the radio? What gauge wire is speaker wire?


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Posted by: McMark Jul 22 2015, 09:34 PM

Those don't look like factory connectors. Is there a radio installed?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 22 2015, 10:07 PM

There is power going to the "turn on the headlights" circuit. If the lights go up again, that means there's power still to that circuit. The switch is mis-wired, it sounds like.

Headlight motor circuit:
- If power is applied to the "raise the lights" terminal, the lights go up until the "light is open" microswitch inside stops them. If you crank the light down, as soon as the microswitch gets opened up again from the movement, the motor will run again and keep running (through the "light closed" position) until it gets to the opened position again.
- If power is applied to the "lower the lights" terminal, the lights will go down until the "light is closed" microswitch inside stops them. If you keep the power on to that terminal, and crank the light partway open, the microswitch will eventually open. Then the light will open up the rest of the way and continue until the microswitch again stops it--when the light is closed.

--DD

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 22 2015, 10:59 PM

Those two go to the "Fasten Seatbelt" light Rob.

Posted by: RobW Jul 22 2015, 11:08 PM

That makes sense. There's no light anymore so should I tape and tuck them?

Posted by: RobW Jul 22 2015, 11:09 PM

No, but I need wires for installing a CDR 220?

Posted by: RobW Jul 22 2015, 11:13 PM

OK. Thanks for the detail. Much appreciated. I'll take a look at the wiring then.

I also have two back up switches (headlight and ignition) on the way in case I need them. I think I'll take the steering, gauges, and lower pad out to see what I can see.

Posted by: RobW Jul 23 2015, 08:38 PM

Is this connection missing a pin? It's under the steering looks like an indicator connection. Black and red wire.




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Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 23 2015, 09:39 PM

Check to see if you have 5 wires to that connector, that cavity should have a brown/black wire. Its your intermittent wiper delay circuit. I bet its there. What seems to be missing is the male prong from the wiper switch...you must have some other switch in there that does not have the wiper delay circuit in it.

Posted by: RobW Jul 23 2015, 10:15 PM

Yep, 5 wires in, 4 prongs connecting. You can see the wire (blurry)... brown and black? Dang.

Posted by: RobW Jul 24 2015, 11:13 PM

Put a new ignition switch in, the old one looked OK though. Did find 2 unattached wires though coming from the ignition switch. That's not right is it?

Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 12:12 AM

I think I'm getting closer to the issue. With battery on, the headlights are live. Headlight switch off, still live.

Ignition switch which should be live is completely without power. In fact, there's two wires just dangling there.

Best I can figure, one is where the real live should go, the other should be switched back to the lights or seats or something.

JWest fuse box looks good. Headlight switch is out but there's a ton of wires to it.

What do you think?

Pict one are the two stray wires off the ignition switch. One for sure is power.


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Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 12:15 AM

Next pict is the fuse box. Does this look right to you?


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Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 12:18 AM

Last pict set is the headlight switch. Looks like power shares a connection with a slightly different wire....


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Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 12:22 AM

Darn... crappy picts... need to study the headlight switch now....

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 29 2015, 09:00 AM

Even Andy takes better pic's than that. In the 1st pic; is that a burn spot on the red wire adjacent to the insulation covering the spade? Also, notice the witness marks on that same sheathing. It appears that those indentations are the result of two opposing spade connections pressing against it. Like this l=

Posted by: McMark Jul 29 2015, 09:55 AM

The two wires in your hand are for the cigarette lighter.

Can't do much with the blurry pics. If you're using a cell phone, get a camera. If you're using a camera, set it to Macro mode. Or take the pictures from farther back. Good light on the subject can reduce blur as well so get out the shoplights.

Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 10:32 PM

You're right. I got deeper in and saw the bigger starter wire in there (yellow) and the larger live wire (orange?). The PO deleted the cigarette lighter and the fasten seat belt light. Wires are still there though.

Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 10:33 PM

I made some progress though .....


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Posted by: RobW Jul 29 2015, 10:39 PM

I adjusted the headlights so they are down at lights off. The relays or motors still click when you connect the battery.

Pulling the light switch on to park, the 4 corners lit up, but pulling the headlights on doesn't lift the lights or light the H4s.

Pulling the hazard switch lit up the dash but no flashing. Turn signal does not work.

Progress.



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Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 9 2015, 04:30 PM

I found lots of little things with Rob's car but nothing major. I guess the biggest issue if you call it that was the fuel cut off relay was connected to constant power and not switched, so it would always cut off fuel. Up/Down on one headlight flipped. Park turn wires on front left turn signal was flipped. Brake light switch arm not hitting brake pedal assembly correctly. Lots of corrosion in lamp sockets. Had to run fuel level signal to center console. connect center console gauges. connect and wire radio and speakers. install LED front lamp boards. The biggest this messing with me (and him) at the beginning was the loose ground at the battery. I would have power and them no power. Once we got it tight, it was easy to track down the issues.

Things to do:
Reconnect starter (yellow) wire at started. It's removed for testing.
Tighten all oil lines and fittings, fill with oil!
Reinstall interior pieces. (some we removed today)
Bleed brakes.
Tie up loose wire and cables.
Charge battery.


The PO did a pretty good job on the wiring even though I fixed some of his work. The car is super clean! Every part is new or restored. This is the first time I spent real time in/on this car and I want it! Just beautiful...

Posted by: kconway Aug 10 2015, 01:45 PM

Wow, sorry guys. I knew it needed some sorting but had no idea I goofed up so many of the connections. Glad you made some progress.

Kevin

Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 10 2015, 04:52 PM

Kevin, this car is amazing! These sort of issues are pretty normal when reassembling a car. Poor Rob has color blindness which compounds the troubleshooting issue. I will be back in a couple weeks to help finish sorting out the last few items and get this thing running.

I really love this car. It reminds me of my first 914. It's almost like a new car with all the parts being new or restored. Rob really wants to sell it to me...

Posted by: RobW Aug 11 2015, 10:11 PM

Big thanks to Mike Bellis...

There's a few more things on the list, but definitely close.

Additional items:
1) Fog lights don't power - switch is lit, power OK to S1, fuse OK, yellow wires are connected between lights, but no juice. Either the switch or the relay.

2) No horn

3) No high beam - may need to replace both column levers

4) Replace stub pipes

5) Alignment

6) Front valence...

Posted by: RobW Aug 11 2015, 10:12 PM

Your work was / is very good. Thanks for labeling stuff!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Aug 11 2015, 10:57 PM

For the fog lights, turn them on and check for power at the fuse, and after the fuse, and on the wire, and at the socket. Remember that the stock circuit requires the headlights to be on in order to send power to the fog lights.

For the horn, there is a separate relay on top of the fuse panel for the horn. When the brown/white wire going up the steering column is grounded, the relay gets triggered, and sends power to the horn. So check that the correct pin (85 or 86?) on the relay gets grounded when you press the horn button, and that the relay has power on the other of those two pins and 30 as well, when the key is on. And so on.

--DD

Posted by: RobW Aug 14 2015, 06:36 AM

I have power at the fuse, but no power to the lights. The high beam isn't working so I think that's it. Might just ground the blue/white wire to check.

Horn is now working! The dino wheel adapter wasn't making contact so I cleaned the grease off the inside ring, bent the inner flaps out, and honk!

Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 14 2015, 07:22 PM

Actually the high beams are the only lights working. That is why the fogs do not work. They have to be off to trigger the fog relay. You need a new hi/lo relay. I have a Saab relay we can make work by adding a jumper to one of the pins.

For those that care... If you remove the white/blue wire from the high beam fuse and ground it, the fogs will work on high or low lights. If you also take the power lead (from the headlight switch) and give it power, the fogs will work any time.

For Rob... That is the smaller white wire with a dark stripe. I think it's connected to fuse 2.

Posted by: RobW Aug 16 2015, 05:43 PM

Thanks Mike. I replaced the wiper switch but the 74 turn signal switch didn't line up. I think I must have a 75 switch on the late 74.

My hi lo switch doesn't exist and nothing catches when pulling the lever back...

i think it's time to put the interior back in, then check the oil lines.

Posted by: RobW Aug 16 2015, 05:45 PM

Oh and thanks...


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Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 16 2015, 07:32 PM

When I was there, I could hear the relay click. This means there is nothing wrong with the switch. You only need the relay.

Oh, you're welcome.

Posted by: RobW Aug 17 2015, 06:45 PM

Does the Saab relay take care of the H4s or are additional wiring needed?

Posted by: Mike Bellis Aug 17 2015, 08:26 PM

The Saab relay has extra external pins that are joined in the 914 relay. The Saab is also electronic switching and does not rely on the old coil/cam system like the 914. It's also twice as wide but will tuck up nicely under the dash.

Here is my thread on this mod for your reading pleasure...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=103905&hl=saab+electronic+relay

Posted by: RobW Aug 18 2015, 01:51 PM

I tested the interior light and got 6 volts. Too low to light the lamp.