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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Which Sway bar
Posted by: Skid Feb 26 2005, 04:12 PM
I have been reading many posts on this forum and I have found that many of you have sway bars on your cars. I love driving my teener but I think it would be even funner to drive if I had a sway bar. Should I just find an old factory sway bar or should I buy an after market one. This car will be mostly a street car but I may try out auto cross, I need a sway bar that will drive well on the street but will also help on occasion when I go racing. Any info would be appriciated.
Thanks, Chase
Posted by: Steve Feb 26 2005, 04:23 PM
I'm running the 22mm weltimeister bar up front and a stock rear sway bar.
I think the stock front sway bar is to wimpy.
Whatever you go with don't use the u-bolts with the brackets up front.
Take the tank out and weld the inner bracket / reinforcements in.
The quick and cheesy u-bolts will rip the sheet metal out from the car.
Don't ask me how I know this.....
Posted by: anthony Feb 26 2005, 04:24 PM
A 19mm front sway bar with 140lb. rear springs is a popular combination.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 26 2005, 04:29 PM
I have a 24mm tarett hollow front bar, 140 lb springs, and now a stock rear bar.... good combo
Posted by: airsix Feb 26 2005, 06:12 PM
Chase,
Regardless of which bar you get you are in store for a treat. A front swaybar will trasnform your car like no other single modification. Whoever made the decision to not equip all 914's with a front swaybar as standard equipment should be beat with... well, a swaybar. Seriously, you have no idea what you've been missing. You are going to love your "new" 914.
-Ben M.
Posted by: ChrisReale Feb 26 2005, 06:25 PM
Depending on your current suspension, I would recommend a 22mm bar and set it full soft (if you have stock rear springs) and adjust as necessary. A 19mm would be ok as well, but if you ever decide to upgrade your suspension, the 19 might not offer enough adjustment.
That said, a 19mm bar, stock front torsion bars and 140# springs is a great combo
Posted by: trekkor Feb 27 2005, 12:01 AM
I'm running the Smart Racing Products 31mm bar set half firm.
Am I the only one running the BIG bar?
This is a very expensive bar, but worth every penny.( $700 )
Amazing and very predictable ride and handling.
You can hit the corners fast and hard.
With 150# rear springs and rear sway bar it is well balanced.
KT
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:03 AM
my 24mm bar set at 3/4 stiff is insane..... added a rear bar. ask mattR how fast we can take cloverleafs before we get the oil press light (need my tuna can installed)
75+ mph
PS- trekkor - get real brake hoses! (SS) 
Posted by: MattR Feb 27 2005, 12:05 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 26 2005, 10:03 PM) |
| my 24mm bar set at 3/4 stiff is insane..... added a rear bar. ask mattR how fast we can take cloverleafs before we get the oil press light (need my tuna can installed) 75+ mph |
Eh. It had some grip, but nothing to cry home about.
LOL, just kidding aaron. It was insane! The seats NEED bolsters though. I felt like i was sliding all over the place.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:06 AM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 26 2005, 11:05 PM) |
| The seats NEED bolsters though. I felt like i was sliding all over the place. |
we shall see what the tax return fairy brings us....
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 27 2005, 12:12 AM
| QUOTE |
| I'm running the Smart Racing Products 31mm bar set half firm. Am I the only one running the BIG bar? |
Holy batcrap batman!
Now that is a BIG bar.
What size was stock? I have a stock front on my street car.
In our track car, we used the Weltmister 22mm bar set 3/4 firm, 21mm front t-bars, 350# rear springs and no rear bar. The car was neutral and predictable on the track. (I kinda changed things for this year and haven't tried it yet)
Posted by: Triaddave Feb 27 2005, 12:16 AM
regaurdless of what you do, take the tank out and drill for the larger (23mm ) bar, they make the bushing to go smaller and they are hard to make the hole bigger if you are not happy
Posted by: skline Feb 27 2005, 12:17 AM
I just installed a stock front bar on the white car with Koni adjustables, what a huge difference. I can hardly wait to do the rear bar with the koni adjustables and 140# springs. Then all I need is some decent tires that will hold the road.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 27 2005, 12:23 AM
| QUOTE |
| What size was stock? I have a stock front on my street car. |
What was it 15mm ? I don't remember.
KT
Posted by: skline Feb 27 2005, 12:26 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 26 2005, 10:23 PM) | ||
What was it 15mm ? I don't remember. KT |
Yes, I think it is a 15mm stock front bar. I could measure it, I have another one here in the garage somewhere.
Posted by: Triaddave Feb 27 2005, 12:28 AM
i don't run the rear sway bar,it doesn't help with the heavier springs
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:28 AM
early 911 = 13mm
76 turbo = 18mm
stock 914 bar = 15mm
it says on the end 
Posted by: skline Feb 27 2005, 12:30 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 26 2005, 10:28 PM) |
| early 911 = 13mm 76 turbo = 18mm stock 914 bar = 15mm it says on the end |
Like I am going to read it??? You are the one going to school, I dont read anymore.
Posted by: MattR Feb 27 2005, 12:33 AM
13mm bars rock. It keeps my 912 planted!
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:33 AM
| QUOTE (skline @ Feb 26 2005, 11:30 PM) | ||
Like I am going to read it??? You are the one going to school, I dont read anymore. |
you may not read, but you still learn a thing or two from me
it says on the square part... you can read it when it is installed LOL
Posted by: trekkor Feb 27 2005, 12:37 AM
I went from no bar, to the biggest made. 
I've never driven a 914 with any other bar.
All or nothing at all...
KT
Posted by: chunger Feb 27 2005, 02:44 AM
Hi,
I have a snazzy 19mm swaybar I should get rid of. . . picked it up from Mueller a long time ago. It's got brass bushings I think and grease fittings. Pretty hip little setup. I feel w/ the weight of a V8, I should go bigger though.
No drop links $150. Guess I should go and take a picture of it sometime.
-'Chung
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 27 2005, 07:47 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 27 2005, 01:01 AM) |
| I'm running the Smart Racing Products 31mm bar set half firm. Am I the only one running the BIG bar? |
that's the bar i have for the front of the 911 with (IIRC) a 27mm for the back.
my only beef with that bar is the droplinks, which IMHO should NOT use 8mm hardware. (i had a car nearly destroyed when an 8mm Heim joint failed in compression and broke). for some reason, only Ira at Tarret gets this and uses 10mm hardware.
so i bought Tarett droplinks and i'll have the connectors remachined for 10mm holes.
oh - i did a substantial increase on the front & back torsion bar sizes too...
Posted by: trekkor Feb 27 2005, 11:06 AM
When I saw the pics of my front set-up again last night I thought the hiem joints looked undersized compared to the girth of the rest of the parts.
Show pics of the improved set-up.
KT
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:26 PM
yep.... tarett has big 10mm heim joints
Posted by: nine14cats Feb 27 2005, 01:08 PM
Hi Chase,
I'll chime in here since I've used different swaybars and motor configs in my 914 over the last few years.
Going from no swaybars to swaybars (or at least a front one) will make a huge difference. Add sticky tires (Dot-R's) and the 914 becomes a ton of fun to drive at an auto-x.
The weltmeister's take a rap for being shitty....and I can understand some of the design issues as I literally wore out the slider nuts from making so many adjustments at auto-x's and track days. But they are very cost effective.
I found that on stock torsion bars in front and up to 140lbs springs in back with Bilsteins all around on my stock FI 2.0 4 cyl, the 19mm front bar gave me plenty of adjustment.
As the car progessed (i.e. I spent more money on it...) what started as a street car for occasional auto-x turned into a full fledged dedicated track car. I moved up to 200lb springs and 23mm T-bars and a 22mm Welt.
Stuck a 2.8L hot six in her and moved up to 400lbs springs in back and ran out of adjustment with the 22mm Welt, so in goes a 27mm Smart Bar. I finally have gone nuts and sold that car and am having one built ground up by Brad, Scott Y., and JWE. This car will have the prototype Tarrett rear bar that Ira is working on with Brad. The front already has a 27mm Smart in it.
My opinion is that if you are going to keep the car streetable and comfortable, you probably won't go over 180lb springs in the rear (140 or 150's max most likely) and you can use any of the bars out there in the front.
Btw, I'm on of those guys that runs a rear bar hooked up even without an LSD, for me I like the feel better. But getting a front bar is where you want to go first.
Have fun....sounds like you're in with the rest of us!
Bill P.
Posted by: Series9 Feb 27 2005, 01:12 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 26 2005, 11:01 PM) |
| I'm running the Smart Racing Products 31mm bar set half firm. Am I the only one running the BIG bar? This is a very expensive bar, but worth every penny.( $700 ) Amazing and very predictable ride and handling. You can hit the corners fast and hard. With 150# rear springs and rear sway bar it is well balanced. KT |
Sweet baby Jesus!
I need one of those.
Posted by: 9146R Feb 27 2005, 02:09 PM
Removed my rear sway bar - car felt twitchy at speed. Run 22mm fr swaybar, 22mm torsion bars, coil over (250 lb) rear with Konis set full firm on Hoosiers. Very neutral and tons of fun at turn-in.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 27 2005, 04:05 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 27 2005, 12:06 PM) |
| Show pics of the improved set-up. |
okay - the Tarett droplinks have 10mm R and L
the Smart droplinks have 10mm Righthand, 8mm Lefthand.
i'm operating under the "weakest link" principle and using Tarett's all-10mm links.
also in this picture is the failed 5/16" (8mm) link that destroyed my yello car.
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Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 04:16 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Feb 27 2005, 03:05 PM) | ||
okay - the Tarett droplinks have 10mm R and L the Smart droplinks have 10mm Righthand, 8mm Lefthand. i'm operating under the "weakest link" principle and using Tarett's all-10mm links. also in this picture is the failed 5/16" (8mm) link that destroyed my yello car. |
holy crap! what was the damage to the car? lost it in a corner???
Posted by: slapshot914 Feb 27 2005, 06:33 PM
Hi There, I run stock front and rear sway bars on my '73 2.0l with 100 lb rear springs. It seems to handle OK, but I want to go to 140 lb springs and a stiffer front bar. When I was reading your post, when I saw "funner" I said to my wife he's got to be from Utah. Sure enough. My wife grew up in Pleasant Grove and Orem. Anyway, welcome to the club. When you get the car sorted out, the Alpine Loop is going to be blast. I just about lost it driving a '59 TR3 on one the curves above Sundance. So take care.
Posted by: Skid Feb 28 2005, 12:34 AM
slapshop,
Its funny that you mention the Alpine loop, I live about five minutes away from it but have yet to take the teener for the ride. I didnt realize that funner was a Utah word, but then again I have lived here my whole life so I guess its just instinct 
. Anyway, It sounds to me like I should get at least a 19mm front bar and not go with the stock bar. Where is a good place to get one of these bars for a decent price?
Chase
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 28 2005, 12:47 AM
Welcome! 
A fellow teener from planet Utah 
Wow 
Why all the big bars gang? I know "You're" all going racing but that's not what he said. I believe he said street with occasional autocross.
I agree with the "all 914's should have a bar" I recently had a no bar car and I've never felt the "boat" any more than in that car. It seems like the flat hood accentuates the Chris-Craft list while going around the corners.
Only the very earliest 911's had 13mm bars. In fact, I think it was only one year 1966. (912's had 12.5mm bars with 28 spline a-arms)
911 = 15mm
914 = 15mm
76 930 = 18mm
74 911 = 18mm under
78 911 = 20mm under (anyone need one of these?)
If you put a stock 15mm bar on that car I personally think you'll be more than pleased with the results. I definately would not go higher than 19mm for what you described as your driving habits.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 28 2005, 12:49 AM
P.S. The Alpine Loop rocks
Posted by: trekkor Feb 28 2005, 12:59 AM
| QUOTE |
| Why all the big bars gang? |
My car is mostly street with a lot of a/x
Stock torsion bars. When the shocks are set soft and I run on my cushy street tires, it's a smooth wonderful ride.
I'd go 31mm again ( I really would ).
KT
Posted by: MattR Feb 28 2005, 01:00 AM
I think my 67 912 has 13mm bars. I may be wrong though, i havent measured the bar.
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 01:17 AM
Welt tie rod ends have a nasty habit of binding on the U tab.
Tarett's don't.
Trekkor:
You buy into the "big bar" theory. I don't. I'm a stiff rear springs kinda guy.
Posted by: cdmcse Feb 28 2005, 01:47 AM
Hey, why don't you guys have a "skidpad" contest at the WCC and see who can pull the most G's?
Posted by: trekkor Feb 28 2005, 01:57 AM
JP, do tell your tale.
what make the ULFster tick?
I street my 914. So I run a soft ride when I want.
KT
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 02:13 AM
To be honest....I hate that ....I ain't bragging on my set-up cause it isn't where I want it to be.......but I know a stiffer front bar isn't the right direction for me. I am gonna try 275 & 300 lb rear springs.....225s aren't enuff to dial out my push. Another alignment set-up should help turn in also.....I fucked up with the last one.
Mainly, big stickey tiars are about the only thing I did right.....but not big enuff If I ever get it right, I'll let ya know.
Some folks would say I should just learn to drive, but that ain't gonna happen 
Posted by: redshift Feb 28 2005, 02:20 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2005, 02:06 AM) | ||
we shall see what the tax return fairy brings us.... |
In Corona?
Panties.
M
Posted by: trekkor Feb 28 2005, 02:21 AM
At least tell us the bar ya got.
KT
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 02:44 AM
Tarett, of course, set full soft.
It's no big secret, I've posted my set-up several times here...it just ain't quite right and will change again in response to different tires.
Toe out F & R, less negative camber, & stiffer rear springs.
This is a learn as you go deal.
I don't see anyone here, cept Bill, with a car that's similar to mine running AX, so guidance is minimal. He gets to start over again too. I try to build on what I learned last season.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 06:35 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2005, 05:16 PM) |
| holy crap! what was the damage to the car? lost it in a corner??? |
i've told this story before, possibly here.
i wasn't in the car, my ex- was, so there are some facts that will always be unknown. i have spoken with the instructor who was in the car but there are still a few things i don't know, and i have come to terms with the fact that i never will.
immediately prior i had the car on the track (Riverside) and it felt good; we were running the long (Can-Am) course with its mile+ back straight and i saw indicated 130+ (2,0 six, E-cams, uprated carb settings, megaphones, snowplow spoiler, otherwise stock engine. stock front & rear springs & torsions, externally adjustable Konis front, Bilstein Sport rear.
i was working Turn 7A and i could hear the distinctive exhaust note as the car made its 2nd or 3rd lower-speed (instructor on board) familiarisation lap through the esses. then it stopped.
i think she was going 75-85 somewhere between Turn 2 (typically the fastest turn on the course, more of a kink) and the bottom of the Esses. i think she was still out of shape leaving Turn 2 and may have put a wheel off approaching 3 (hence the compressive stress on the droplink). (important note: it is my conjecture that the link failed *before* the crash, but the spin could well have been fully developed and the link broken *after* the car went off. i'll never *really* know. but it is plausible.)
so - 17mm front bar (hey - it was big in those days...) set up mid-stiff and an H&H rear bar (5/8" -- 18mm i think - i still have the bar...). so when the front bar disconnected with the broken link, the car was instantly set up for MASSIVE oversteer.
did a snap 90-degree turn, and hit the inside curb with the left rear, bending the trailing arm like a pretzel. (what it is supposed to do - the pickup points in the tub are undamaged...) that tipped the car (sliding through gravel and slowing pretty quickly...) onto its left side and it skidded backwaard, uphill, a bit before rolling gently onto its top.
the leftside panels are pretty beat up, there are some dents in the Targa top. the back glass DID NOT break. the rear trunk lid opened and was folded pretty much in half (since re-flattened but it's history...) and of course the windscreen hoop was folded down a lot. the windscreen shattered, the driver's window (down) broke, i think the rightside is okay. the hood was untouched, as were all the right side panels. the left turn signal tunnel was flattened pretty good, and the top came off, so i have some latchpoint repairs to do there. the right door had previously had a BIG ding in it but of course it was not further damaged - just the left...
we got a few thousand from the insurance after months of work, and the car has been out of service since 1980. it has recently loaned many parts to the 911, but after i refit the 911 it should be getting them all back, with interest, and will be that much closer to being on the road again. i'm shooting for "its day" -- 9/14/06
it has been stored inside mostly, except for a few years when it was outside but well-covered in v-e-r-y dry northern NV. 23,000 total miles on the tub.
clearly, if 8mm links were as bad as i think they are, they'd be failing right and left and we'd hear about them a lot. but once was enough for me, and i'll continue to use and recommend 10mm parts. i have the damaged part to hold in my hand and the resultant damaged car to fix.
the choice is yours, it's your car, do what you want.
Posted by: chunger Mar 4 2005, 07:44 AM
Someone PM'ed me about being interested in my 19mm swaybar so here are some pics. . . ball joints and zerks. Comparison bar is stock 17mm I believe.
-'Chung
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Posted by: chunger Mar 4 2005, 07:45 AM
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Posted by: chunger Mar 4 2005, 07:46 AM
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Posted by: ArtechnikA Mar 4 2005, 08:01 AM
| QUOTE (chunger @ Mar 4 2005, 08:44 AM) |
| Someone PM'ed me about being interested in my 19mm swaybar so here are some pics. . . ball joints and zerks. Comparison bar is stock 17mm I believe. |
hey! i have that exact same setup! i was beginning to think i was the only one who bought one of those! i think there are a lot of advantages to the splined ends, but it does make it a challenge to find new/uprated/different lever arms...
i slightly enlarged the counterbores in the pillow block and used some stainless 3/8-24 Allen bolts already drilled for safety wire that i found in an industrial / military surplus liquidator...
i don't want to hijack Chunger's deal here. he's got first crack at it. my bar's a 17mm anyway - i think that works fine for a street or AX car but it's now considered way light for a track car.
OEM bars were 15mm. the torsion comparison formulas have been posted here before...
you want a 19mm bar, talk to Chunger. if it's been sold or you want a 17mm bar, you know how to reach me ...
Posted by: anthony Mar 4 2005, 10:24 AM
Rich, who made those bars?
Posted by: TimT Mar 4 2005, 10:30 AM
They look a bit like Charly Bars, but adjusting arm looks different
Posted by: ArtechnikA Mar 4 2005, 10:42 AM
| QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 4 2005, 11:24 AM) |
| Rich, who made those bars? |
that is a harder question to answer than you might think :-) ...
John Bond Jr in San Diego had them made when he was starting up a racing parts company. AFAIK, it never really got off the ground -- he was working out of Wayne Baker's Personalised Autohaus and i gave him a check made out to "John Bond Jr" and got a bar and a bag of parts. one of his early (commercial) customers was Alan Johnson Racing (now AJ-USA).
this was what? - 1976-ish ...
the key "feature" was the broached splined ends, and i have no idea who made and/or owned the tooling, or where it might have ended up in the intervening 30 years.
at that time, there were not a lot of players - there were factory bars, and even in 1976 there were not a lot of choices in sizes and they all ran in rubber bushes. then there was H&H. and there was this local guy with a 550, a really fast ex-IROC 3,0 RSR who dabbled in IMSA west coast events and dominated the Zone 8 TT events, and he was selling parts that looked to be really well-engineered and was selling them at startup prices. so that's what i bought...
Posted by: anthony Mar 4 2005, 10:59 AM
Wow, those bars have history.
Posted by: maf914 Mar 4 2005, 12:06 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Mar 4 2005, 08:42 AM) |
| at that time, there were not a lot of players - there were factory bars, and even in 1976 there were not a lot of choices in sizes and they all ran in rubber bushes. then there was H&H. |
I have H&H bars on my car, adjustable 19mm front and fixed 16mm rear. They have worked fine for the street. I wasn't sure if H&H was still in business, but a few years ago I contacted them and bought a complete set of replacement rubber bushings to refresh everything. No complaints, but they're not as fancy as the bars available today.
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