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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ I am thinking about being rash!
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 26 2005, 08:36 PM
Picked up a 2.4l six today and maybe this one has found a home if I scrap all my big 2.4L four plans.
I can't decide:
Big screaming four
or
2.4lsix
or wait to save up some more money and install a 3.2!
What do you think I should do??
Geoff
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Posted by: ClayPerrine Feb 26 2005, 08:40 PM
Go for the six....
But make sure that you don't get DWD while doing it. Or you could end up like me....
I bought a 911 tach at a swap meet (Honey, some day I want to put a six in my car, but not now). That started the 4 years and counting oddysey of my car....
Oh, DougC has a 914/6 flywheel for sale in the parts forum.
Posted by: xsboost90 Feb 26 2005, 08:42 PM
a six would -in theory- just add to the value of your car.
Posted by: Jeroen Feb 26 2005, 08:44 PM
go six!
Posted by: TimT Feb 26 2005, 08:48 PM
You can break down that 2.4 and rebuild it into a screamer....
get a 20/21 cam or a 158R or GE60 cam, have the heads freshened.....bolt it all together with the Webers that I see on your engine and things will be good.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 26 2005, 09:46 PM
| QUOTE (TimT @ Feb 26 2005, 09:48 PM) |
| get a 20/21 cam or a 158R or GE60 cam, have the heads freshened.....bolt it all together with the Webers that I see on your engine and things will be good. |
i think it's going to take more than cams to really wake up a 2,4 T ...
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 26 2005, 09:53 PM
Got a type number on that, Geoff?
The shroud color says 'T' , but....?
Posted by: ClayPerrine Feb 26 2005, 09:54 PM
If the webers are factory, it's a T motor. All of the other 2.4 motors were MFI......
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 26 2005, 10:29 PM
supposed to have RSR cams in it already
Factory carbs
Geoff
Posted by: red914 Feb 26 2005, 10:37 PM
find a roller and have both!
c'mon, like you haven't already thought of it 
Posted by: anthony Feb 26 2005, 10:46 PM
Go for the big 4. Don't you already have the Nickies for that? The conversion parts alone will cost $4K to put that 2.4 in your car.
Posted by: redshift Feb 26 2005, 10:52 PM
I'd put the 2.4/6 in there... but not that one. 
The 2.4 E or S makes my favorite 914 setup.
M
Posted by: VegasRacer Feb 26 2005, 10:53 PM
six
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Posted by: Brando Feb 26 2005, 10:57 PM
if the 6 is going to be opened up... best to put some 964 cams in there, straight headers, punch it out a bit, updated cam chain tensioners (oil fed), shuffle-pinned... You can take it up to 2,9 safely. It'll be a screamer. 
Posted by: boxstr Feb 26 2005, 11:21 PM
Geoff put that six in your westy. And then get a V8 and go real fast in your 914.
CCLINRH
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 27 2005, 01:06 AM
The type # is just below the hose clamp in your pic on the right side of the engine....stamped into the case just inboard of the chain housing ....should be 911/XX. Get that number before you do anything.
73.5 2.4T had CIS. Euro 2.4Ts had carbs.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 27 2005, 01:22 AM
| QUOTE |
| The conversion parts alone will cost $4K to put that 2.4 in your car. |
If you want to upgrade to a 3.2 someday, the parts aren't getting any cheaper.
You can get all the conversion parts for under $3k if you are me.
Go SIX, please.
Thank you.
KT
Posted by: MecGen Feb 27 2005, 06:41 AM
Hi
I, like most teeners, have thought about conversions...
Put aside HPvs$$ (V8 wins hands down), why does an aircooled six always makes me stop breathing ?
If you go for the big four, you will always see that six in the corner of your eye, if you go for the six, you will forget about the four, except when your pulling $$$ out of your pocket.
I absolutly did not help, I am confused.
Cheers
Joe
Posted by: scotty b Feb 27 2005, 08:30 AM
My .02 Put the six in your driver with 67S cams, open the jets, early 911 stock exhaust,if the pistons need replacement go with a set of J.E. high comps., that makes a very fun "cheap" driver. Keep the 4 banger and build a racer!! 
Posted by: redshift Feb 27 2005, 08:43 AM
Uhh... that is an upside down 9.
M
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 27 2005, 09:07 AM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 26 2005, 11:29 PM) |
| supposed to have RSR cams in it already Factory carbs |
okay - -something- is wrong with this picture...
(or you've found out why it runs like crap and was available to you cheap...)
a 72-73 2,4 911T engine should probably have come with Zeniths but a Weber change is not uncommon. it does, however, have 7,5:1 compression and the RSR Sprint Cam is a pretty radical profile - i'm surprised there's enough static compression with that much overlap to even get the fire lit.
unless it also has big compression pistons, but then you have to wonder if it has had all the other updates necessary to actually use that level of performance (big ports, big valves, uprated valve springs for the rev range where those cams work...
RSR sprint cams work great with 3,0 liters and 10.3:1 compression.
be interesting to find out what you've got there, really !
the type number is a start - i'm guessing 911/57
Posted by: 9146986 Feb 27 2005, 09:33 AM
It would have to have different p/c's to run right. The 2.4T is low enough compression you could turbo it 
You know what my advice is Geoff. (whispers) Go the distance......If you build it you'll have fun......
Seriously, if you do a six conversion the car will always be worth more, even if the engine goes toes up on you (then you'll have a reason to get the Motronic 3.2 you want anyway). If you build a big (pushrod) four, the car will always just be another four.
Fresh engine vrs fresh engine, the six will last longer than the hopped up four, run smoother, rev happier, and test your driver and mechanic skills more.
I've posted it before, but here it is again; nobody says "gee I don't like this six, I'm going to convert it back to a four"
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 27 2005, 09:44 AM
Build the four...you already have the nickies.
Oh wait....go six....I'll give you .10cents on the dollar for your nickies!
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 12:41 PM
engine numbers
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Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 12:42 PM
serial#
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Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 12:42 PM
carbs
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Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:43 PM
uhmm zeniths..... 
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 12:43 PM
new owner!
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Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 12:49 PM
Guess this means I am gonna try to build a screaming four 2.4L with Andymaniforlds and Haltech EFI.
Should make for a crazy project!
(Hows the Blogging feature coming McMark?)
Geoff
Posted by: pete-stevers Feb 27 2005, 12:55 PM
six,six 
yup thats what I am doing, slowly but surely....I here it is kinda like and investment ha! ha! nothing wrong with doing a 2.4!
Go for it....
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 27 2005, 12:57 PM
DWD at it's finest
I have a guy who might be interested in the nickies but he's a CSOB...but I think he'll give you more than my .10cents on the dollar for your nickies offer. 
PM me with a price and I'll forward it to him if you want.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 27 2005, 12:58 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 27 2005, 11:49 AM) |
| Guess this means I am gonna try to build a screaming four 2.4L with Andymaniforlds and Haltech EFI. Should make for a crazy project! (Hows the Blogging feature coming McMark?) Geoff |
this is the 4 banger right?
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 01:04 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2005, 10:58 AM) | ||
this is the 4 banger right? |
Screamingfour(4)with103mmNikkiescamceramicliftersAndyManifoldsHaltechEFI
Should keep me busy for a few weekends.
I'll do a six conversion later after I build the new house with a two car w'shop garage. We are planning that for starting next year, gonna tear down the rental and go for it.
Geoff
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 27 2005, 01:12 PM
My bad I thought your going /6 right away.
Was going to ask what Andy's manafolds are...but then I realized Sir Andy...plenum.
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 27 2005, 01:49 PM
I hate carbs and the six motor had carbs which means I would have to do alot to it besides the cheapo six conversion like Tekkor.
Geoff
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 27 2005, 02:16 PM
I am a big promoter of the Six, But Like you think why go back to carbs , Ive seen so many 911 owners take off their CIS wanting Power, installing carbs etc, just to end up disapointed in the way it drives cold ,hot, etc.
3.2 /6 on the other hand go for it. You made a good decision I think.
Posted by: Eddie914 Feb 27 2005, 09:30 PM
SixnotFour,
You don't happen to have a 3.2/6 lying around do you??
... and a roll cage?
Eddie
Posted by: Sparky Feb 27 2005, 11:24 PM
I had a rash once, the doctor gave me some lotion and told me to keep it behind a zipper 
I'm going 6 - soon as I finish the house and bribe the wife. Got all the parts just want the cash to freshen up the engine before I do the swap.
My best,
Mike D.
Posted by: ! Feb 27 2005, 11:26 PM
Has ANYONE ever met Dirk Wright?
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 09:15 AM
That I recall he was in the Mid West somewhere. He was just a poster on the old boards that got funnier and funnier as he took his car apart to "I better fix this and take this apart so I'll take that apart since I am doing that I'll take that apart too".
This is way back when you Mikey had the Rocket and were thin.
I even had more hair back then.
Geoff 
Posted by: ! Feb 28 2005, 09:22 AM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 28 2005, 07:15 AM) |
| That I recall he was in the Mid West somewhere. He was just a poster on the old boards that got funnier and funnier as he took his car apart to "I better fix this and take this apart so I'll take that apart since I am doing that I'll take that apart too". This is way back when you Mikey had the Rocket and were thin. I even had more hair back then. Geoff |
Yeah....but yer uglee and I can diet.....
I just wondered if Dirk realizes how much of a legacy he has left behind....
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 28 2005, 09:22 AM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Feb 26 2005, 07:54 PM) |
| If the webers are factory, it's a T motor. All of the other 2.4 motors were MFI...... |
2.4 T motors were MFI until early-mid 1973, when they became CIS equipped, and those aren't Webers. The distributor is a 2.4 or later, and the early ones won't fit the 2.4 and later case. Ergo, it's a 2.4 or later that has had the FI removed and Zenith carbs installed. The Cap'n
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 28 2005, 09:24 AM
| QUOTE (scotty b @ Feb 27 2005, 06:30 AM) |
| My .02 Put the six in your driver with 67S cams, open the jets, early 911 stock exhaust,if the pistons need replacement go with a set of J.E. high comps., that makes a very fun "cheap" driver. Keep the 4 banger and build a racer!! |
Can't put S cams in a T motor without changing the pistons, which makes it no longer a T. The Cap'n
Posted by: mike_the_man Feb 28 2005, 09:54 AM
Geoff,
You gonna sell that six? How much do you want for it? I think you've made the right decision going with the 4. Now sell me the 6 for reeeeeeeeally cheap!
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 10:53 AM
Its gone! Sold it.
Geoff
Posted by: mike_the_man Feb 28 2005, 11:01 AM
Well that was quick. Crap! 
Oh well, back to the search.
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 11:39 AM
Did you have a Wanted: Ad in the Classifieds? That will help to let people know you are looking.
There are other motors out there so what are you lookin for??
Geoff
Posted by: mike_the_man Feb 28 2005, 11:43 AM
Well, I'm not really sure what I'm looking for, and I'm not looking too hard just yet. If I could find something for a decent price, I'd jump on it. I'm thinking a 2.2 - 2.4L. Something that I could use the stock transmission with, and if I could get away without an external oil cooler, that would be even better.
Sooner or later, I'll figure it out. 
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 12:27 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 28 2005, 07:24 AM) | ||
Can't put S cams in a T motor without changing the pistons, which makes it no longer a T. The Cap'n |
Krust, I bought the 2.4 from Geoff over the weekend. Looks like a decent engine. Also looks like a Euro 2.4, factory carbs, no outlet for the MFI sprocket. The carbs look factory, all the pieces are corectly there. I haven't had the time to look deeper into it, but I am guessing it's a Euro 2.4T engine.
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 12:41 PM
Also, there is no Thermal time switch, so A non-CIS engine I am thinking.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 12:47 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Feb 28 2005, 01:27 PM) |
| ...looks like a Euro 2.4, factory carbs, no outlet for the MFI sprocket.... |
so, we'll ask again -- what is the engine Type Number?
i'm still holding out for 911/57
no MFI sprocket? there goes the "RSR Cam" theory ...
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 01:09 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Feb 28 2005, 10:47 AM) | ||
so, we'll ask again -- what is the engine Type Number? i'm still holding out for 911/57 no MFI sprocket? there goes the "RSR Cam" theory ... |
I will check the type # tonight. I never have actual hopes when I am told something with Zenith carbs has any type of "R" spec cams in it. I don't think it does. Sometimes legends are made of the engines that sit.
Anyway, I am pretty sure it's a Euro spec 2.4T engine. I have heard there were a few imported to the US during that time frame. Either way, Geoff got me a great deal on what looks to be a great motor! Thanks Goeff!
One question comes to mind though, if it is a Euro 2.4, would it have bigger than the 27.5mm venturies? Hmm, I will have to look.
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 01:15 PM
Where is the engine type number located?? I poked around lookin for it.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 01:23 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Feb 28 2005, 02:09 PM) |
| One question comes to mind though, if it is a Euro 2.4, would it have bigger than the 27.5mm venturies? Hmm, I will have to look. |
i'm guessing no, since the ports and valves were unchanged from the 2,2. in any case, Frère doesn't mention it, although he does show the cam timing changes.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 01:27 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 28 2005, 02:15 PM) |
| Where is the engine type number located?? I poked around lookin for it. |
Posted: Feb 27 2005, 02:06 AM
by JP Stein ...
| QUOTE |
| The type # is just below the hose clamp in your pic on the right side of the engine....stamped into the case just inboard of the chain housing .... |
Posted by: GTeener Feb 28 2005, 01:31 PM
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Posted by: GTeener Feb 28 2005, 01:31 PM
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Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 01:40 PM
ok, wise guys. Where in the pics is the 911/57 or whatever numbers?? I took the pics remember?
just trying to learn something here cuz I don't know sheet about 911 motors and all my reference books went to AZ for Blair to read.
Posted by: ! Feb 28 2005, 01:42 PM
Just above the serial number....it's usually very faint.
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 01:54 PM
So faint thats its not freakin there!
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 28 2005, 02:04 PM
6- six cyl.
5- TV Zenith Carbs 1- USA mech inj.
3- 73 model
3192- seq. #
Also known as 911/57
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 28 2005, 02:08 PM
Hallejuah! someone who can read serial numbers....
kewl.
Geoff
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 02:09 PM
Below and to the right of the S/N. there's a raised boss (for a stud or oil passage) . That's a 73 (per the S/N) motor & thus prolly a 5R or 7R case...a good one. 7R, 2.4L cases are somewhat sought after
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 28 2005, 02:13 PM
5R Dan looked.
Now he hopes it runs Good Enough
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 02:19 PM
Right on that boss under the oil fitting, IIRC. I can't double check mine cause the engine room is sealed off.
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Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 28 2005, 02:34 PM
Actually it is straight back from the temp sender , stamped Left to Right , just in front of the case going vertical .
Or in the shadow of the picture.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 02:46 PM
| QUOTE (GTeener @ Feb 28 2005, 02:31 PM) |
| |
congratulations, Gwen, you have identified the Serial (not Type) number ...)
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 02:56 PM
| QUOTE (sixnotfour @ Feb 28 2005, 12:13 PM) |
| 5R Dan looked. Now he hopes it runs Good Enough |
Been pretty lucky so far I am sure it's fine. I will go through the carbs, but have a set of webbers I will toss on it for now. I could put this in and have it running in a couple of days easy, but I have been waiting for Don/GPR to start making those oil tanks. Looks like I might have to go Vellios again?
Anybody know what a Euro 2.4T puts out? US was 140hp, so I am thinking 150hp for the Euro?
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 03:04 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Feb 28 2005, 03:56 PM) |
| Anybody know what a Euro 2.4T puts out? US was 140hp, so I am thinking 150hp for the Euro? |
130 @ 5600 / 145 lbs-ft torque @ 4000.
up 5 from the 2,2
(the US 2,4T was a MFI engine ...)
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 28 2005, 03:06 PM
| QUOTE |
| 6- six cyl. 5- TV Zenith Carbs 1- USA mech inj. 3- 73 model 3192- seq. # |
The scecond number in the serial number indicates the engine types, in addition to the type stamped into the casebehind the sender.
1= T-E
2=E-E
3=S-E
5=TV-Ezenith
6=SC-Fcarrera
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 03:08 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Feb 28 2005, 01:04 PM) | ||
130 @ 5600 / 145 lbs-ft torque @ 4000. up 5 from the 2,2 (the US 2,4T was a MFI engine ...) |
Sounds like you are quoting the DIN rating? Maybe not? You look at different places and see different numbers, so it is what it is. I guess I don't really care. If it runs out good, I am happy. If not, I know this great engine builder who can put together something grand.
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 03:11 PM
I looked this up for the Euro spec 2.4's:
Building on the success of the 2.2-liter engine, Porsche bumped the 911's six to 2.3 liters (actually 2,341 cubic centimeters, which Porsche badged as a "2.4") for 1972 by bumping the stroke up to 70.4 millimeters from 66 millimeters while keeping the bore at 84 millimeters. This pushed output of the 911T engine (now with Bosch fuel injection) to 157 horsepower, the 911E to 185 horsepower and the 911S to a potent 210 horsepower. The new power led Porsche to install a new, stronger five-speed transaxle and a new, more robust version of the still ludicrous Sportomatic.
and this for the US Spec stuff:
Meanwhile, over here, the '73 911s had their "2.4" engines also rerated using net figures to 135 horsepower for the 911T, 159 horsepower for the 911E and 181 horsepower for the 911S. Otherwise, if you could perceive a difference between them and the '72s, you were a Porsche fanatic of the highest order. Midway through the year, Bosch electronic fuel injection replaced the mechanical unit on the 911T and that engine was rated down a single pony to 134 horsepower, but drivability soared.
So what does this mean? Maybe I have a 157hp engine? Maybe a 135hp engine? 
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 03:32 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Feb 28 2005, 04:11 PM) |
| ...This pushed output of the 911T engine (now with Bosch fuel injection) to 157 horsepower... Meanwhile, over here, the '73 911s had their "2.4" engines also rerated using net figures to 135 horsepower for the 911T So what does this mean? Maybe I have a 157hp engine? Maybe a 135hp engine? |
except that you do not have a Bosch Fuel Injection 911T (Einspritzen) you have a 911T-V (Vergasser - carburetor). MFI was good for 10-15 HP.
Anderson shows 911/51 (USA-MFI) at 140HP, the 911/57 (ROW-Zenith 40TIN carb) at 130, so those look like the same units/methods (labelled DIN all...)
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 03:54 PM
Hmm, sounds like this is just a run of the mill ROW engine then? Well, if compression is the same as well as timming and cam's, with some carb tunning, maybe I can squeak 140hp out of it. Happy enough for me!
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 04:06 PM
The good news is:
Piston squirters
Counterbalanced crank
Thicker clyinder spigots
Big valve heads....but small ports. The vintage racers luv them heads.
And the compression is so low it'll run on anything.
I put one of those in my 914. Good low end torque ...it would idle away in first from a stop. Ran out of steam about 6K.
Sixnot:
That's what I get for not double checking....
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 28 2005, 04:31 PM
Doesn't sound like a bad set up then. I have some webbers I will toss on it for now. They are 40/36's, I forget the jetting, but it made my last 2.2T six haul! They will probably be even better on a 2.4T.
I learned a lot today. I didn't know there was a ROW engine, Euro engine and US engine. Sort of cool to know! Thanks everyone for the info!
Posted by: ! Feb 28 2005, 04:41 PM
All that information is in Bruce Anderson's book....I just don't memorize it some guys do....
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 28 2005, 05:00 PM
| QUOTE (mikez @ Feb 28 2005, 05:41 PM) |
| All that information is in Bruce Anderson's book....I just don't memorize it some guys do |
you just happened to get me on a snow day when i was home early and had access to Anderson and Frére...
i carry the '69->71 (2,0-2,2) and 914 Spec Books in my briefcase. stray from those and you get potluck on what references i've dragged along on any given day ... (today - 1997 Subaru...)
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 28 2005, 06:46 PM
It's like any other reference book, you don't have to memorize info, just know where to find it.
You can't imagine how many times I've read "I bought this motor and the guy tole me it was (fill in the blank). Did I get a good deal or whut?"
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