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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ OT: Calling all straight F students...

Posted by: BigD9146gt Mar 1 2005, 08:10 PM

I was never good at homework. I liked being in school learning, just never could remember any of it when the time came to barf it back to the teacher. This is an email my old man sent me, he's a pretty sucessful mechanical engineer who also didn't do all that well in school. Enjoy.

Charles Kettering invented no knock self-starter, diesel locomotive and paint for cars.

Intelligent Ignorance:

The more education you have the less likely you are to become an inventor. The reason why is this: from the time a kid starts Kindergarten to the time he graduates from college, he will be examined two or three times a year and if he flunks once, he’s out. Now an inventor fails 999 times and if he succeeds once, he’s in. An inventor treats his failures simply as practice shots.

He believed a problem was more than willing to be solved provided the researcher remembered who was boss, by which he meant the problem, not himself. The only difference between a problem and a solution, he used to say, is that people understand the solution. Solutions only involve a change in perception, since the solution must have existed all along with the problem itself. A researcher, he argued, was there not to master the problem but to make it give birth to its solution.

Posted by: xsboost90 Mar 1 2005, 08:22 PM

im just too stubborn to admit theres a problem.

Posted by: Qarl Mar 1 2005, 09:21 PM

Miles isn't real!

Sorry.

Posted by: Qarl Mar 1 2005, 09:22 PM

In all seriousness, higher education doesn't mean squat these days.

Heck, even Bill Gates said that High School was a waste nowadays.

Some of the most successful people in the world are immigrants, and people with only a high school education. They have drive, willpower, and determination. They know what it is like to start with nothing and achieve greatness.

Posted by: ! Mar 1 2005, 09:23 PM

Neither is Santy Claus....

Posted by: ! Mar 1 2005, 09:23 PM

Oh wait...is it time for the ass crack pic?????

Posted by: iamchappy Mar 1 2005, 09:49 PM

Sometimes an invent stuff by accident

Posted by: iamchappy Mar 1 2005, 09:54 PM

eye

Posted by: iamchappy Mar 1 2005, 09:57 PM

There is hope for me after all.

Posted by: MattR Mar 1 2005, 11:00 PM

QUOTE (Qarl @ Mar 1 2005, 07:22 PM)
In all seriousness, higher education doesn't mean squat these days.

Heck, even Bill Gates said that High School was a waste nowadays.

Sorry, but thats a load of crap. For the 99.999% of the population that isnt going to be insanely rich, an upper level education gives more job security. True, some college graduates live on the street and some high school dropouts are multi billionairs, but can you really use anecdotal evidence to say upper level education is a waste?

Ive had people give me crap in school all the time about not using the equations I learn in every day life, but its the skills aquired and understanding of forces (in my case) that make an upper level education A RESOURCE for being a quality engineer, in my opinion. But Im a kid, dont listen to me...

-Matt
2nd year Mech Engineer

Posted by: jkeyzer Mar 1 2005, 11:09 PM

(I am a professional electrical engineer with an MSEE).

Oh and by the way, kids in school these days can flunk many, many, many, many times and still stay in school. I wonder what kind of problems that creates?

Posted by: MattR Mar 1 2005, 11:16 PM

Flunk many many many times? NOT TRUE. Trust me, I read the fine print

At UCI you can retake only 4 classes while at UCI. At UCSB any grade below a C is not passing (so a C- is a not pass).

Each quarter we must remain above a 2.0 gpa or we go on academic probation (must get above a 2.0 next quarter with no C-s or you're kicked out). And if you go below a 1.5 gpa any quarter you can be disqualified from any UC and not let back in. In addition your total GPA in major courses (in my case MAE courses) has to be above 2.0. So basically a C average is the MINIMUM to not get kicked out. If after 4 or 5 years your GPA isnt above a 2.0 you will not get your degree. And after 5 years of school, you're kicked out. You can not go for a 6th year as a regular full time student (you have to go to UC Extension or summer school). Just some tidbits. School aint as easy as you guys think

Posted by: jkeyzer Mar 1 2005, 11:20 PM

I was referring more to elementary school. And don't worry, in college, with grade inflation and the often generous grading curve, it's still pretty hard to actually fail out of school (but I admit it is possible if you try).

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 1 2005, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (MattR @ Mar 1 2005, 10:16 PM)
Flunk many many many times? NOT TRUE. Trust me, I read the fine print

At UCI you can retake only 4 classes while at UCI. At UCSB any grade below a C is not passing (so a C- is a not pass).

Each quarter we must remain above a 2.0 gpa or we go on academic probation (must get above a 2.0 next quarter with no C-s or you're kicked out). And if you go below a 1.5 gpa any quarter you can be disqualified from any UC and not let back in. In addition your total GPA in major courses (in my case MAE courses) has to be above 2.0. So basically a C average is the MINIMUM to not get kicked out. If after 4 or 5 years your GPA isnt above a 2.0 you will not get your degree. And after 5 years of school, you're kicked out. You can not go for a 6th year as a regular full time student (you have to go to UC Extension or summer school). Just some tidbits. School aint as easy as you guys think

tell my pops that his twin masters degrees dont mean squat.
good plan qarl

Posted by: MattR Mar 1 2005, 11:28 PM

To reply to this thread I do have to say I dont agree with modern education. So much emphasis is placed on being "well rounded" (as if school can physically teach that anyway), students now days are discouraged from exploring their calling and encouraged to enter a world of rote memorization of crap you dont need to know. This is mostely aimed toward high school, but some of it applies to college classes.
Now, take the inventors of yesteryear. Their schooling wasnt too intensive, or they didnt do well, so they read their own books and were still motivated to learn. Now days students are so burnt out on school we dont want to do anything other then go home and watch tv (or 914club) when we get home. My highschool was classes from 8am until 3pm then on average (good students spent) 4-5 hours a night doing homework. Now tell me where we're supposed to find the time or energy to go read the same books an inventor in the 19th century would have read?
In addition the education system nowdays tries to mask itself as the solution for students. Whats tough to differentiate is that school is only one tool used. If you do well in school you are gaurenteed NOTHING in life. In fact many universities (including top ranked ones like UCI) have little to no job placement programs and do not work with local companies. But I am not going to drop out because simply I would rather have the "tool" of education in my belt. Some disagree.

You can probably tell Ive had a lot to think about while not doing my homework. I am not a straight A student, but also not an F student. I try hard, but not too hard.

Posted by: Qarl Mar 1 2005, 11:30 PM

I think I may have phrased it wrong by saying higher education doesn't mean squat... I wasn't belittling those with college eductions. I have one... duh!

I guess what I am trying to say is, that often times, the degree of someones success has little to do with their formal education, but rather their real world experience. Those in college will find out that after they graduate, they start the learning process all over again. A higher percentage of the crap you learned in college you'll never use again. Yes... the argument can be made that by going to college you have proven that you can learn, think, and problem solve.

Another point I was trying to make, but failed to get across clearily, is that you don't necessarily NEED a college education to be successful in life...

And... our grade-school and high-school education system sucks nowadays.

Oh... and before more people tell me to piss off... I live in Florida, ranked 49 in the nation for it's educational system. I recently read that nearly 50% of the students currently enrolled in Florida schools will not graduate high school.

Posted by: MattR Mar 1 2005, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Mar 1 2005, 09:20 PM)
I was referring more to elementary school. And don't worry, in college, with grade inflation and the often generous grading curve, it's still pretty hard to actually fail out of school (but I admit it is possible if you try).

I would be scared if 6 year old kids werent given a chance in school... frankly I dont think we should have real schooling until like 10 or 11. Before that it should just be socializing! Whether the government should fund a playground is another topic of another forum

But curves are there for a reason. If there were no curves, EVERYONE would fail. For instance, on my dynamics midterm a few weeks ago the class average was 49 out of 100. My 68 turned out to be an A-/B+. But 30% of the class still didnt get a passing grade. A curve is just more fair. It normalizes the class to account for easy teachers or bad test questions.

Posted by: MattR Mar 1 2005, 11:39 PM

Qarl, Im going to stick with what I said before. If you're talking about the fraction of a percent of very wealthy people in this country (bill gates), a college education wont mean squat, but I'll play by the numbers...

Posted by: Qarl Mar 1 2005, 11:41 PM

Oh... and for the record... I graduated from the school of Aerospace Engineering at Georgia Tech with my bachelor's degree in '93. (I minored in composites and materials engineering.) When I entered the program, there were 1500 applicants. They accepted only 300. At the end of our sophomore year, the kicked out the bottom 50% of those that were left and told them to switch degrees. Out of the original 300, only 93 graduated. I graduated #11 in my class with a 3.43 GPA.

In 1993, when I graduated, there were an estimated 40,000 unemployed aerospace engineers in the industry.

Even though I participated in the cooperative work/study program with Pratt & Whitney's Military, Space and Government Engines division and accumulated over 2 years of work experience throughout college, I was unable to find a job after 18 months of searching.

360 resumes and applications later, nada...

I now am part owner of a healthcare consulting and medical billing company.

Go figure!

Posted by: SLITS Mar 2 2005, 12:03 AM

Higher education keeps the kids off the streets until a job opening occurs when someone as old as I retires or dies.

BA - Psychology
BS - Chemistry
PhD - School of Hard Knocks (Ouch, oh shit just recieved another lump)

Mystery solved.........................

Posted by: 914ghost Mar 2 2005, 12:20 AM

I'm in Radiology- you must prove competance on every single test- but your 1st grade sticks forever. And a C- is a FAIL.
Meaning, you must get a C (pass) on every test- any test with less than a C is an F and stays an F, but you must retake that test and prove that you know the material - you get 3 chances each test total, but it doesnt change your recorded grade. Fail to pass any 1 test the 3rd time and your out.
So, in some ways you can fail many times, but in the end you cant fail even once!
Bob O

Posted by: larryp Mar 2 2005, 07:36 AM

You know, I work with inventors. My fields are pharmaceuticals (small molecules and antibodies), metallurgy, electronics, aerospace engineering, molecular biology and printing. There are some more too (displays and textiles, etc.), but that is the majority. At one small biotech company 2/7 of the executive committee are Nobel winners. At another, three of the five inventors I work with most often are Rhodes scholars. Among the rest, occasionally, I have an inventor who is not a PhD. But not too often.

You don't need a higher education to succeed in life. But statistically you are making a bad bet spurning one.

Posted by: mudfoot76 Mar 2 2005, 08:07 AM

QUOTE (larryp @ Mar 2 2005, 08:36 AM)
You don't need a higher education to succeed in life. But statistically you are making a bad bet spurning one.

I'll second that. I do know of some PhDs who couldn't get out of a wet paper bag, as well as people who barely escaped high school with a diploma but are very successful running their own businesses. However, on the Gaussian curve that is life, these people are the abberations....in general, the more advanced your education, the more opportunities you are afforded (I have a terrific job as a result of getting my MSc)

Stay in school

Posted by: Qarl Mar 2 2005, 08:45 AM

Sometimes I speak incoherently, so just ignore me.

blah blah blah blah blah...

Posted by: Thorshammer Mar 2 2005, 09:34 AM

Some of us are really missing the point!

The common denominator to all of this is DRIVE. If you have it you will succeed, either because your too stupid to accept loss/defeat or your just plain stubborn (as I am).

Statistically speaking, the numbers don't lie. With a college degree of any type statistics say you will make 1.2 million dollars more than if you do not have one.

As for the Pharm companies, probably not a good comparison for workers with or without a degree. To function in that type of a research enviroment, higher enducation is a must. But, take a designer vs Mech Engineer, with many of the new FEA and CAD systems we have these days, the playing field is much more even than it ever was. But, to get hired by a company to do this work is another story. I for one do not have a degree. I have taken many classes at the University. Mostly because I needed the information. My fluids class was the best story though. I did not have the requisite math courses, so when I got into class the Prof called me up and asked me to drop, that I would be wasting my time without the math to perform certain calculations. I asked to stay without a grade, I remember the look on his face, "your wasting my time sir" you know that look. Now I'm not going to say it was easy, and yes I had to buy two math books and get some help from a friend, but I was determined to learn the stuff I needed (I owned a motorcycle suspension company). I got a 91 on the final. The Prof could'nt believe it. So he gave me the grade.

Some of you are very right. Education has gone awry in this country. My wife is a High school teacher. She deals with the trials and tribulation every day, biggest problem is a lack of support from the home front. The ones that have support don't need it, they are doing fine in class. The ones that need it, don't get it. My wife has 110 students everyday, at parent teacher conferences she gets 4-10 parents coming in to see her. ? WTF over!? thats not even 10%. The conference session lasts until 9:00pm so it is not a question of time, but will or lack thereof. When I was growing up Parent teacher conferences were like a town meeting, everyone was there. Maybe people see education solely as a right. Not priveledge? No wonder other countries are kicking our ass.

Erik Madsen

Posted by: JB 914 Mar 2 2005, 10:33 AM

A college education simply proves you have the ability to complete a task. It doesn't guarantee you a job or a certain income.

The most important thing you have is your reputation. Every action you take has consequences. The sum of your actions is who you are to your peers.

Posted by: Toast Mar 2 2005, 10:46 AM

I agree with Quarl in the fact that the most successful people have drive, will and determination.

I have had 8 years of post high school schooling, have a AS in Science and a Certificate in Geographic information systems. I have a Scuba Diver Certificate, and have worked enough on vehicle that I could probably be an entry-level mechanic.
Yet I still work at the same dead-end job that I started at in 98.

This is because I do not have the drive, courage, or determination to apply what I have learned and to do something else.

My colleges and friends keep pushing me to get more school. Granted, that would probably help get a better paying job, but, will I apply myself afterwards, or will I just be in tremendous debt from school and stay stagnet?

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 2 2005, 11:19 AM

I had to go back 3 times to finish High School. I thought hanging out with my friends and getting a full time job as a cook was more fun. Instant gratification. I am not stupid - just never applied myself when I should have. I look back and see that doing better in school would have done wonders for myself. Self esteem, first real glimpse at working hard at something where the payoff is far down the road. I wish I would have done more in math, math is cool and is whupass tool for problem solving and analysis.

But I learned a ton going the OJT route and bettered myself along the way. I work for an engineering/consulting firm in I.T. been here for 9 years. I make more than a few of the engineers with a lot of schooling, and a lot of hard work. I can say that I accomplished more than I thought I would have. I have also known people with outstanding education and they are dumber than a stump in the real world. I would also say that about 40% or more of people that I meet with a college education are not working in the field that they studied.

But yesterday I found out that I am being moved to a flex position rather than full time at the end of the month. We have been overstaffed in my office for a couple years, and as a senior and high paid tech I am financially expendable. I guess it is a blessing in disguise, I am burned out and it is time for a new job or even a new career path. Maybe doing something that I am interested in, rather than just for pay. Now is the time that I kick myself for not getting a degree. It's hard to sell yourself without it. But I have enough real world experience that makes up for a bunch if not all - just have to have the interviewer look further than my education on my resume. (also not laugh that I did it in purple crayon).

Posted by: RAR Mar 2 2005, 11:25 AM

I still can't get a handle on what Buffy is doing. Can you slow it down a little, Mike. I like the av all in all.

Posted by: Qarl Mar 2 2005, 12:15 PM

914ghost...

Radiology huh? You might want to check your radiation levels... your ears and teeth are beginning to look a little funny.

Regards,

Qarl

Posted by: Lawrence Mar 2 2005, 12:56 PM

I can relate to that. I nearly flunked out of college the first time.

Then, I started taking night classes... slowly banging away at my degree plan... over the last 12 years.

Someday, I'll be done.

-Rusty

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 2 2005, 12:59 PM

One day i will have the papers to prove I am smart, then use them to mask off the car when I paint it. heh.

Posted by: SLITS Mar 2 2005, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Mar 2 2005, 11:59 AM)
One day i will have the papers to prove I am smart, then use them to mask off the car when I paint it. heh.

The papers are a good "door opener". After that, you're on your own and the papers do semi well in a toilet function.

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 2 2005, 03:34 PM

Well you can use yours when you apply for a job at dairy queen, soft serve specialist, here's a little bit on my work..

Posted by: SLITS Mar 2 2005, 04:41 PM

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Mar 2 2005, 02:34 PM)
Well you can use yours when you apply for a job at dairy queen, soft serve specialist, here's a little bit on my work..

Do you realize how hard it is to get that little curlie que on the top of that ice milk compound and keep it there while you dip it in chocolate?

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 2 2005, 04:49 PM

Thanks, I think I just had the complete visual in my head. Want peanuts on that?