Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 17 2015, 05:26 PM

I love my brand new GE Nighthawks. There is no way I could go back to regular headlights. I had a set of sealed beam Hellas.

Last night I turned on the fog lights for the first time and the high beams came on. When I looked at the front of the car, all three were on: the regular lights, high beams AND the fog lights.

Any fix for this? I would like to have the fog lights and the low beams on at the same time without the high beams.

Edit: up until I installed the LED headlights, turning on the fog lights did NOT turn on the high beams. And turning on the high beams turned OFF the fog lights. In other words, normal behavior.

Thanks,

Paul

Posted by: screenguy914 Sep 17 2015, 05:45 PM

Sounds like the PO switched wires on the headlight switch. Maybe someone has a cheat sheet showing wire color codes and their location. The factory wiring circuit helps some, but a photo would be best.

BTW, there are at least two different light switches on 914s. Specify the year and perhaps upload a pic of your light switch with connected wires.

Sherwood

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 17 2015, 05:50 PM

Hopefully a pic soon, I have a 1974 1.8 liter. It had a single tone horn, plastic steering wheel, no center gauges. So it seemed like a car supplied without the appearance group originally. I bought it with chrome bumpers and fog lights that worked normally up until this latest upgrade. But entirely possible something weird was done if in fact the fogs were added after the fact.

Paul

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 17 2015, 06:42 PM

I'm sure you meant more than this, but here's a picture of my switches:

Posted by: Mike Bellis Sep 17 2015, 07:11 PM

In stock form, the highbeam circuit provides ground to the fog lamp relay coil only when the highbeams are off. It should be impossible for the fog lights to back feed this circuit as the power would need to jump across a terminal that never connects.

You will need to trace the wiring to figure it out.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 18 2015, 04:04 AM

Changed my topic heading to indicate that the fog lights used to work normally with the low beams only. The fog lights used to shut off when I turned on the high beams.

The only thing I changed was the headlights.

Thanks again,

Paul

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Sep 18 2015, 09:26 AM

After installing my LED headlights, which coincided with other headlight wiring issues, my high beam relay is wonky. It always starts on high beam, which really flicker, then I click it once with a pull on the signal arm to get it to switch to low beams

I need to get back under there and re-check all the wires and grounds! Good luck

Posted by: mepstein Sep 18 2015, 10:28 AM

change it back. see if it fixes it's self.

Posted by: 904svo Sep 18 2015, 01:06 PM

Porsche used relay logic to operate the fog lamps, they used the low resistance of the high beam light to ground to the fog light relay. The fog lamp switch with supply battery to the other side of the relay to turn on the fog lamps when the high beams were turn on battery would be on both sides of the fog light relay this would cause it to release. I think with your arrangement you added relays for your new lighting system and the low resistance ground is now missing causing a feed back problem.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 18 2015, 04:00 PM

My Golf R 2012 has LED headlights without fogs. I think the current setup even with the wonky high beams will be fine, I can live without the fogs I believe because these new LED headlights have such a great illumination right in front of the car.

I like 904svo's explanation. Must be something with the relays!

Paul

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 19 2015, 05:45 AM

I am in no way an electrical genius BUT I've been thinking about the relay issue.

SO, I need a relay to switch between low and hi beams at the stalk.

BUT I don't need any relay to turn off the fog lights when I hit the hi beams. I'm an "on your honor kinda guy" so I'd turn the fogs off if I needed the hi beams. The automatic feature is not necessary for me.

SO, if there is a relay that automatically turns off the fog lights when I hit hi beams isn't there a way to bypass this function? Then, when I have the lo beams on and I turn on the fog lights somehow the hi beams will not be weirdly triggered on?

Where exactly is that relay and how could I "hardwire" the fog lights separate from the hi beam relay function?

Paul

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 19 2015, 11:08 AM

There is no separate relay that cuts the fogs off. There is a relay that powers the fogs, and there is the high/low relay for the headlights. It's how they are wired together that provides the cutoff function.

Basic electrics: A relay is (more or less) an electrically-operated switch. The switch is spring-loaded so that by default, the #30 pin (usually the input for power) is connected to the #87a pin (most often not connected to anything). When power is connected to the #85 pin and the #86 pin is grounded, or vise versa, the magnet inside the relay pulls the switch so that #30 is connected to #87 (usually the output to power the light or whatever).

If #85 and #86 both have +12V, or both have ground, or either one is not connected, the spring in the relay keeps #30 connected to #87a.

Here are some pics of the guts of a relay:





OK, so if you look for the stuff around relay J5, the foglight relay, tracks ~21-23 on this diagram: http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/parts/Electrical/914_electric_74B.jpg

OK, here is where it gets tricky. Pin 85 of the foglight relay is connected to the high beam circuit. (You can tell it's high beams because of the wire color, and because of the high beam indicator light K1 being connected to them.) Pin 86 of the relay is connected to the fog light switch, E7, and gets +12V when the switch is pulled. In order for the relay to close, and connect 30 to 87 and send power to the foglights, pin 85 has to be grounded.

It gets grounded through the high beam circuit of the left headlight, going through fuse #1 in the process. But, if power is going to the high beams, that part of the circuit will have +12V instead of being grounded. So both 85 and 86 will see +12V, no current will flow, so the relay will not switch on.

That's how the high-beam cutout is implemented.




So, how can changing the headlight effect that? The LEDs will have a different amount of resistance, for one thing. They also will not allow current to flow "backward" through them (they are diodes after all!) but I'm not sure that will have any effect here. I'm not sure what else off the top of my head.



OK, on to the high beams versus the low beams. You'll see that the high/low relay (J in the diagram) is kind of like a standard relay that loops back on itself. But the important part is that the input (pin 56) can only be connected to one output, either F or 56a. So if you are getting power to both the high and low beam circuits, power is getting to them in some other way.

The most probable cause, if this happened after changing the headlights, is that you have crossed up the wires on one or both lights. So double- and triple-check those connections, because it is very likely that you have one or more things swapped around.

--DD

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 19 2015, 02:37 PM

Wow, incredible answer Dave! I'm gonna try to wade through it. All I seem to remember is V=IR from high school...

BTW, all I did was unplug the headlight connector from my old headlights and then I plugged the new headlights in.
It's a 3 prong connector and there is only one way it will fit in.

What I'd really like to do is uncouple the fog lights from the headlights. Which probably means disconnecting some kind of wire somewhere. Wiring diagrams are great but where are the specific relays located in the car? (I think under the dash)

Paul

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 19 2015, 11:43 PM

The relays in question are located on top of the fuse panel. The high/low is a square box, the foglight relay is one of the regular round ones.

--DD

Posted by: Mike Bellis Sep 20 2015, 12:20 AM

There is no way the fog lamp power circuit can effect the high or low beam power circuit. They are completely separate circuits.

The only connection is the high beam providing ground to the fog light relay when off and the headlight switch providing power when on.

The load side of these circuits are isolated. There must be some wiring messed up somewhere.

Posted by: steuspeed Sep 20 2015, 12:44 AM

Then there is always the JWest fog light upgrade. Flash your fogs with all lights off. Also turn on fogs with lows/highs off. One of my favorite upgrades. Flash on coming classics or warnings for other drivers. Near dusk I drive with markers and fogs on so pop-ups are down. Running stock fogs and H4 high/lows. This mod is plug and play. You can go back to stock if desired.

http://www.jwesteng.com/shop/index.php?id_product=9&controller=product

Posted by: Bartlett 914 Sep 20 2015, 07:55 AM

I believe on a stock car you don't want the fog and the high beams on at the same time due to excessive current draw. I assume the LED headlights draw less current eliminating this as an issue. You could them wire the fog relay to the fog switch as a separate circuit. I think removing and isolating the wire from 86 on the relay and grounding the relay connection 86 will do the trick.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 20 2015, 09:07 AM

I don't know the history of this car but it has no appearance group options except the fog lights so I assume it was added by a p.o.

I'll try to check into the fog relay. I wouldn't run the fogs and highs at the same time, I'd be "on my honor" on that one, it seems counterproductive anyway.

Someone musta crossed something somewhere!

Thanks again, everyone. I'll report back if I iron out this bug. I think the JWest relay might iron it out also...

Paul

Posted by: screenguy914 Sep 20 2015, 01:53 PM

Hi-Lo beams, headlight cover motor, running lights and fog lamps are all inter-connected at the light switch.

Attached are two views of the light switch from my '74.



Source voltage to the fog lamp switch is only activated when the headlight circuits and headlight doors are energized/ON.

As an aside, to operate the fog lamps independently, disconnect the fog source wire at the headlight switch and run a new source wire directly from the fuse box to the fog lamp switch. The switch energizes fog lamps via the fog lamp relay.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

Posted by: john77 Sep 20 2015, 06:11 PM

Are you sure it doesn't already have the JWest fog light module? My car has it and I have the GE nighthawks too. Once I plugged the nighthawks in my lights started doing all sorts of crazy things. If I turn the fogs on the fogs don't come on but it switches the nighthawks to high beams. I just stopped using my fogs, and as soon as I get around to it I plan on removing the JWest module.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 20 2015, 08:16 PM

Interesting thought. I never tried blipping the fogs before...

But I agree, I can live without the flogs. The Nighthawks are so bright and so precision focused, I think the "dim" fogs have become superfluous! But they do look cool...

Paul

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 20 2015, 08:17 PM

Thanks for the pics. I'm picking up ideas along the way!

Paul

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Sep 21 2015, 09:07 AM

Just when you thought you had found the perfect plug-n-play upgrade
....another endless 914 project develops


I have pulled the JWest fog light module and I still experience the high/low beam "issue". BUT, I love having the fog lights on as driving lights....more work to do soon!!

Posted by: Chris H. Sep 21 2015, 09:21 AM

Aw man really? Have we confirmed the JWest flasher is the problem? Was getting close to ordering these...

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 21 2015, 03:09 PM

So Chris, you have the LED headlights also?

Paul

Posted by: 904svo Sep 21 2015, 06:24 PM

Try this. On fuse#1 there is 2 white/blue wires (one goes to High beam light the other to the fog light relay) cut these two wires apart find out which one goes to
the High beam light ( apply battery) reconnect this to fuse#1 with a new spare wire.
Connect this wire to terminal #85 on a new relay. The Blue/white wire left over attach to a new relay terminal #30 . Connect terminals #86 and #87a together and run to ground. This fix will supply ground to the fog light relay on when the low beams headlight are on and remove it when the high beams are turn on.

Posted by: dangerranger01 Sep 21 2015, 07:21 PM

Curious about this too. I was about to order the jwest kit as well.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 21 2015, 07:46 PM

Sounds doable! I think what I really want to do is have the fog lights work whenever I pull out the fog light switch. I will never run them with the brights, I just don't want to worry about the fog lights being triggered by anything other than me pulling out the dash switch!

Paul

Posted by: 904svo Sep 21 2015, 09:02 PM

If you want that option, take the Blue/white wire and put it to ground instead of wiring it to #30 , forget about the rest of the wiring and relay.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 21 2015, 09:03 PM

You don't need to do that. If you want the fogs on only with the low beams, just move the "left over" white/blue wire to one of the low beam fuses. You can use a "piggyback connector" do do that relatively painlessly.

--DD

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Sep 22 2015, 08:56 AM

NO I am NOT saying that. That module has been awesome for 5+ years. AND when I took it off, I realized I had it hooked up wrong in the first place, which may have been causing part of my problem...so, more work to do!

I felt removing it was a good idea since it was time to strip down to basic wiring and work back up to the functionality I had and want. I hope to re-install the JWest module, and may buy a new one.

For some reason, I had it hooked up to 12V power on the ground wire
It mostly worked! I just never had high beams

All this wiring work started because I was installing the GE LED headlights. Got them off Amazon with double coupons



Ok! Thanks for posting the potential fixes

Posted by: whitetwinturbo Sep 23 2015, 03:01 PM

..........how did you get "double" coupons

Posted by: mepstein Sep 23 2015, 03:32 PM

Order one at a time

Posted by: Chris H. Sep 23 2015, 04:36 PM

Ah! Got it. Makes sense. I wish I had a dime for everything I've wired incorrectly! I might still have the JWest installation instructions if it would help you. Just PM me.

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 24 2015, 06:18 PM

I made two separate orders with Amazon on the same day in the same sitting with two credit cards, just to be sneaky. Before they sent them I received an e-mail that because they were going to the same address they'd make only one shipment in one box. Got the benefit of two coupons. They don't seem to care!

I think they may be watching me type this now............LOL

Paul

Posted by: orthobiz Sep 24 2015, 06:19 PM

Also I am happy with an "on my honor" system. I'd like the fog lights to go on and off completely separately from any other relay or failsafe mechanism. I solemnly pledge that I will never use them with my high beams.

I know there's a way to do that...

Paul

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 24 2015, 06:33 PM

Just move that one wire to the relay off of the high-beam circuit, and hook it up to a constant +12V circuit. I did that, and have killed at least one battery that way. (Oops!) Maybe hook it up to a switched power circuit instead...

--DD

Posted by: FlacaProductions Mar 28 2019, 02:22 PM

researching the truck light LEDs - did this ever get resolved?

Posted by: Chi-town Mar 28 2019, 04:19 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1319 looks like this is similar to the issue we were discussing

Posted by: Mikey914 Mar 29 2019, 09:11 AM

I think it was the No high beams you were discussing. The relay requires more load to trigger to high, the additional wire in resistors fix that. Who would think not drawing current on the headlights could be a problem.

Posted by: bdstone914 Mar 29 2019, 04:34 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22446
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348


Dylan,

Yes exact same problem we discussed.

Low beam on, turn on fogs and high beams come on.
Common in LED conversions. Many U tube videos showing how to install the resistor of circuits like turn signal. Affect many vehicles.
Mark,
Who would have thought low resistance was a problem ? About everyone on this thread including me.

Posted by: Spoke Mar 29 2019, 07:18 PM

Seems when changing to LEDs one should expect issues and then be pleasantly surprised if no issues arise.

For LED turnsignals likely the OEM flasher relay will need replaced. It's an absolute must with the 911 as its OEM flasher will hyperflash even if one turnsignal front or rear is replaced with LEDs.

For 911's with cruise control, if all brake lights are changed to LEDs, the CC will not engage. Turns out the CC ECU dumps about 7ma into the brake lights. With incandescent bulbs, this is not a problem. With LED brake lights, the light will glow dimly as LEDs will light up even with a tenth of a milliamp.

The 911 CC ECU monitors the voltage on the brake lights. I couldn't put enough ballast resistance on the boards to allow the CC to function properly. What solved this was the pigtail below with two 12 ohm 50W resistors in parallel. One 6 ohm 50W resistor could have been used but it would get too hot if one engaged the brakes for a long period of time. This pigtail is inserted in series with the brake light switch on the brake master cylinder.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Matty900 Mar 29 2019, 11:19 PM

The issue is the led is not pulling enough load. When you add a resistor it solves the problem. We have them and I tested them to confirm that it solves the problem. I have not had the chance to finalize the install instructions and Bruce has been trying to help me on this. The only questions I have are where is the best place to mount it. One thought is to mount it to the headlight housing on the opposite side of the bar as far away from the metals pop up cover. The reason being, it's a resistor and will get warm. I don't want it next to the paint. The pros of putting it hear is that it is out of sight. The con's if you drive in the rain this can become a wet area so your connections need to be properly weather proofed (good barrel connectors and heat shrink.)

The 2nd photo is only showing you what wires you need to tie in to, not where to do so. However, you can put the wires in here and plug the light in to test and make sure this resolves your issue.

Spoke, Chi-town, Mike B where would you suggest mounting this?


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Mar 30 2019, 07:46 AM

Does this go across the high beam or low beam LED?

I assume the resistor will have full battery voltage (14V) on it when energized.

From the picture it looks like its a 6 ohm, 50W resistor.

With a 6 ohm resistor with 14V across it, it will be burning 32W (V*V/R).

According to Vishay's TMC0506R000FE02 6 ohm, 50W resistor specs, free air mounting of the resistor allows only 40% of the power dissipation or 20W.

To burn 32W reliably the resistor should be mounted on a metal surface like an inner fender likely using the tabs to mount it with screws. A metal brace or bracket might work as well as long as there is solid contact between the brace and the bottom of the resistor. All paint should be scraped off of the brace/bracket/fender for good thermal conduction.

This derating in power dissipation in free air is why I ended up with two 12 ohm 50W resistors for the brake light ballast. I started with one 6 ohm 50W resistor but realized this would exceed the manufacturer's recommended free air power dissipation. The resistors for the brake ballast can be tie wrapped onto a brace near the brake MC.

Can you use a higher ohm resistor like 12 ohm? If so, then the power dissipation would be 16W and would be consistent with the manufacturer's guidelines for free air mounting. I think you only need to be able to trick the high/low beam switch and provide a low enough resistance to energize the fog light relay.

Interestingly these resistors are recommended as ballast resistors for turnsignals when LEDs are used. In this case, they can be used in free air since the turnsignal is on only 1/2 the time thus the overall power dissipation is 32/2 which is less than 20W (40%).

Posted by: FlacaProductions Mar 30 2019, 09:10 AM

Sounds like this is the truth.....

Posted by: Chi-town Mar 30 2019, 10:56 PM

Could you separate the ground for the fog relay from the high beam circuit?
Give it an actual ground and turn them off manually when using high beams?

Posted by: Spoke Mar 31 2019, 06:37 AM

Separating the ground for the fog relay would negate the need for the fog light relay to have a ballast resistor. It would make the fog light independent of the high/low beam.

Here's how the '74 914 foglights are connected. Notice the white/blue wire from the fog light relay to the top of fuses 1 and 2. Likely this wire is connected at the fuse panel and able to be easily disconnected. Then make a short pigtail with a male spade on one side and a ring terminal on the other side. Connect the male spade to the white/blue wire and the the ring terminal to a nearby chassis bolt.

Posted by: Mikey914 Mar 31 2019, 12:52 PM

The load resistor needs to be on the low beam, to trigger the relay.

Posted by: Chi-town Apr 1 2019, 02:11 PM

Easiest way

Posted by: Spoke Apr 1 2019, 04:00 PM

It could be so that this wire is found on the lugs on the fuse panel for fuse 1 or 2. Easily removed and with a pigtail with male spade on one side and ring terminal on the other side, the modification "should" be an easy update. The fogs would be on then with low or high beam.

Talking to Bruce today, I realized my 930 with LED headlights has the same connections as the 914. I haven't tried the foglights with the LED headlights to see if they still work. Will have to try it this weekend.

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 2 2019, 08:43 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22446
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3031
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18454

Dylan, ( Chi-town)
Anxious to see if it works.
Will be glad to help and document exactly how it it done.
Bruce

Posted by: Spoke Apr 2 2019, 11:20 AM

I may drop the fuse panel this weekend in my 914 to look for the white/blue foglight wire.

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 2 2019, 06:06 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3031
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22446
Dylan is going to try the same on a 914.

I like the option of separating the operation of the dogs from the headlights.

Still looking at best mounting for the load resitor.
Here is where I think it should go. Thick metal and air flow when the lights are up.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 6 2019, 10:34 AM

Confirmed today that the foglights on the 930 do work with low beams and turn off with high beams. It could be so that the LED headlights on the 930 have a different impedance than the ones on the 914.

Posted by: orthobiz Apr 6 2019, 11:00 AM

I never posted my final solution. I had the fogs wired separately so no more hi beam/lo beam woes.

Paul

Posted by: FlacaProductions Apr 6 2019, 01:13 PM

separately? you mean direct and bypassing the interconnection/relay with the hi/lo switch?

Posted by: orthobiz Apr 6 2019, 02:35 PM

Yes, direct separate wiring. Actually Brad/Michael at 914ltd did it for me.

Paul

Posted by: drem914 Apr 7 2019, 10:32 AM

Mark, I purchased the resistor from you, but am still waiting on a final wiring diagram so I know where and how to connect up. Scott said you might have that out soon?

Posted by: Spoke Apr 7 2019, 09:48 PM

I modified the headlight/foglight schematic to show where the foglight relay attaches to the high beam lights. Turns out the 914 is wired such that the white/blue wire from the foglight relay is connected directly to the spade connected to the high/low beam relay.



Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 7 2019, 09:52 PM

I decided to rewire the foglight to be independent of the high beams. Disconnected the battery negative cable and dropped the fuse panel.

The high/low beam relay is shown on the right side of the panel. The foglight wire is the white/blue wire. This wire will be cut and tied to ground.




Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 7 2019, 09:55 PM

The white/blue wire to the foglight relay is cut and crimped to about 1 foot of wire. The other end of the wire has a ring terminal crimped on.




Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 7 2019, 09:57 PM

The other end of the new wire is grounded on this lug. Now the foglights are independent of the high beams. With this modification , a ballast resistor will not be necessary when the headlights are LEDs.



Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Mikey914 Apr 7 2019, 10:18 PM

This would actually be the preferred method of install as the resistors will generate heat.

Thanks Spoke

Posted by: Mikey914 Apr 7 2019, 10:19 PM

More than happy to take it back, Spoke’s solution is preferable.
Mark

Posted by: drem914 Apr 8 2019, 09:05 AM

Thank you, I'll bundle it up and send it back. It's stlll in the orignal bag you sent it in.

Posted by: Shredhead Apr 10 2019, 12:49 PM

I wonder if this would solve the problem I have, which I really haven't tried to solve yet. Have new LED headlight bulbs. First time I tried them, High Beam, check, Low Beam, check. Can't recall if I tried the fogs, which are still incandescent (and I think one is out). Next time I tried, them, Highs worked fine, Lows... nada.

Posted by: Spoke Apr 10 2019, 04:25 PM

When the lows didn't work, were the high beams still on or no lights at all?

Also was the foglight switch on or off?

Posted by: FlacaProductions Apr 10 2019, 08:37 PM

Spoke/Mark/all - thanks for spending the time to get this sorted. I'm away from my new-to-me 2.0 but this is really going to help as upon initial inspection I found that the current H4 reflectors were deteriorated and I was wondering what route I should take - stay with H4's or go LED. I really wanted to go LED but not if there was going to be collateral "damage" - can't wait to get back to the midwest where the 914 is living so I can tackle this. oh - and placing an order for Spoke's LEDs and some rubber from 914 Rubber...great resource here!!

Posted by: FlacaProductions Apr 10 2019, 08:50 PM

Should the line coming off the high/low beam relay just be capped off?

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 10 2019, 09:29 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21628

No. The solution is to remove the blue/wite wire from the fuse panel and run directly to ground.

Pictures from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22446 .


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 10 2019, 09:38 PM

If you dont have fog light there are no known malfunctions.
LEDS can have some strange affects on related systems.
Was told of a user installed LED backup bulb in a Chevy truck. Caused a trans error light. They pulled the teams and went thru it and no internal problems were found. Many newer cars need a canbus to avoid erroneous errors from being generated.
Bruce

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 10 2019, 09:41 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19047
You may have a hi-low relay that is sticky.
Bruce

Posted by: FlacaProductions Apr 10 2019, 11:35 PM

well now i'm confused and i've read this over and over.

which is correct?

A: the blue/wht line from the HIGH/LOW relay gets grounded
B: the blue/wht line from the FOG LIGHT relay gets grounded

Posted by: jcd914 Apr 11 2019, 12:24 AM

It is the white wire with the blue stripe from the fog light relay but as Bruce illustrates it is easier to get to it were it connects to the fuses. So pull the wire Bruce shows from the fuse panel and connect it to a ground. The fogs will then be completely separate from the high beams.

Jim

Posted by: Spoke Apr 11 2019, 03:20 AM

This would be the same wire except it appears it could be physically connected at a different point.

A: On my '71 the white/blue wire was physically connected to the high beam spade connector at the high/low relay.

B: In the car pictured by Chi-Town via Bruce, this white/blue wire is shown connected to the high beam fuse on the fuse panel. Maybe a later year car?

In either case, this is the same wire and should be removed from its current position (either cut at the connector if in A: or pulled from the fuse if in B: )

Make a pigtail of about 1 foot of wire with a ring connector on one side, and on the other side either:

A: Crimp the white/blue wire cut from the high/low beam connector.
B: Crimp a male spade on and connect to the white/blue wire pulled from the fuse. Put shrink-wrap on the spade connection as to not touch any of the 12V power in the fuse panel. I would not recommend taping this off as the tape may come off and short to any of the 12V power.

The ring connector side of the wire is then connected to a local chassis point.

Posted by: Shredhead Apr 11 2019, 04:20 PM

I was thinking that too. Going to try a new one.

Posted by: Shredhead Apr 11 2019, 04:21 PM

Can't remember right now. Have to check. I'd like to have the fogs on the "honor system" anyhow.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Apr 11 2019, 10:45 PM

Got it now. Crystal clear. Thanks tons.

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 12 2019, 06:24 AM

Edit:
Looking closer at the 70-71 and 72-73 diagrams I see a difference on the fog light relay ground. Only the 72-73 shows the blue - white wire to the #1 fuse.
I need to get all year diagrams.

Wire diagrams show the blue-white wire is connected to the #1 use spade fot 1970-1973 cars.
I have not checked diagrams for 74-76 cars.
Chi-town shows a 73 harness.
My bet is that all years have the wire in the same location.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3031
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 12 2019, 07:18 AM

These images are from my Haynes 914 Owners Workshop Manual. It shows only the "Up to 1971, USA and except-USA" cars have the white/blue wire to the foglight connected directly to the wire spade connector on the high/low headlight relay. All other years show the white/blue wire connected to Fuse 1.

It shows basically 3 different drawings of 2 configurations:

1) "Up to 1971, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected at High/Low Relay.

2) "1972, 1973, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected to Fuse 1.

3) "1974, 1975, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected to Fuse 1.


Here is "Up to 1971, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected at High/Low Relay. Foglight relay is #53; Headlight switch is #27. Note wire on pin 85 on #53 foglight relay connecting directly to the spade on pin F on #27 high/low headlight relay.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 12 2019, 07:22 AM

2) "1972, 1973, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected to Fuse 1. Foglight relay is #53; Headlight switch is #27. Note wire on pin 85 on #53 foglight relay connecting to Fuse 1.






Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Spoke Apr 12 2019, 07:25 AM

3) "1974, 1975, USA and except-USA" White/Blue wire connected to Fuse 1. Foglight relay is J12. Note wire on pin 86 on J12 foglight relay connecting to Fuse 1.

Also note that in previous years, it was pin 85 used as the switched ground for the foglight relay. Here it is pin 86. For those questioning whether a relay coil could be powered one way or another, looks like Porsche answered that question...




Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Biggles Apr 12 2019, 11:58 AM

Great info!

I’ve got this issue too on my ‘70 -6 since installing LED headlights

Haven’t looked at the fuse panel, but will this be the same as a -4?

Thanks

Posted by: Spoke Apr 12 2019, 01:43 PM

Not sure about the 70/6 wiring. However it is likely you'll find that wire either on the F pin on the high/low headlight relay or on the F1 fuse. I think you'll find the wire on the F pin. It looks like they changed the physical connection to the F1 fuse as the model years went onward past 1971.

Posted by: FlacaProductions May 23 2019, 08:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1319 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3031 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22446 - thanks so much for this. Finally got around to installing the LED headlights (thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348 ) and "ground-the-wht/blu-llne" mod worked perfectly. I snapped a tab on the headlight retaining ring during the swap and may be getting one locally but if not, i'll reach out to you chi-town and get one as well as the ss screws. that's the final step for proper aiming. Huge thank you to all.

Posted by: Chi-town May 23 2019, 09:32 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21628 happy to help, let me know on the headlight stuff, I have a bunch

Posted by: FlacaProductions May 24 2019, 08:32 AM

PM sent...thanks!

Posted by: malcolm2 Oct 31 2019, 02:02 PM

http://pcbunn.cacr.caltech.edu/jjb/Porsche/FogLights.pdf

and old Porsche Panarama magazine article. 3rd page shows this.....

Posted by: malcolm2 Oct 31 2019, 06:05 PM

Am I getting this thread right? You guys only did the wire mod on the fog light relay above? Grounding the wire on fuse 1?

NOT the Blk/blu wire mod between headlight switch and the fog light switch
AND NOT the add a new wire from 8/9 fuse to Fog switch term 15?

You DID NOT do those 2 and you still have your Fogs on their own and they work anytime the key is on???

Posted by: FlacaProductions Oct 31 2019, 06:15 PM

I just did the grounding wire - nothing else other than the Spoke relay.
NO - my fogs only work when the parking lights are on. (or when the headlights are on, obviously.)

Posted by: malcolm2 Oct 31 2019, 07:06 PM

I figured is was easy to do and I could do more. So I did as mentioned. Pull the wht/blu wire from fuse 1..... make a pig tail with a female spade on one end and a ring connector on the other.... mate the wht/blu and the female on the pig tail.... attach the ring connector to a chassis bolt.

However, my fogs don't work exactly as you stated. They only work with the headlights on. But now they stay on when the headlights are on LOW or HIGH.

Daytime driving light feature does not interest me at the moment. Forgot to check the indicator light in the switch knob..... But I did notice that my small green FOG indicator light in my speedo did not illuminate. Could be the bulb. I have backdated my gauges to silver dot. The 120 mph speedo has a fog indicator that used to work.

Thanks for letting me join in this older thread.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Oct 31 2019, 07:23 PM

You might need @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3031 EP26 relay so it all plays nice with the LEDs

Posted by: gereed75 Jun 4 2020, 09:49 PM

Resurrecting an older thread here to add a bit more info to close the loop for six guys.

According to my 70 914-6 wiring diagrams, the two white/blu wires are connected together at the fuse terminal 1. One goes to the instrument lights and one to the headlight relay. I will be doing the grounding of the relay wht/blu tomorrow and hopefully cure my wonky fog/LED headlight thing

Incidentally I have three different 914-6 wiring diagrams - the Zapf diagram, a German diagram of unknown origin, and a German diagram I always thought was out of the factory manual. Each has it own individual characteristics/ uses.

The two German ones show what we know as fogs to be called “additional high beams” . They show no fog light switch at all. I suspect they are activated via the headlight relay. The factory diagram is easiest to use for tracing colors (very clear color labeling). The other German one has no color labels but does show each switch or connector terminal number. The Zapf calls the second set of lights “fogs” and shows a switch. The Zapf is very difficult to trace wires on in some places, they all blend together. I have found at least one wire color to be wrong.

Posted by: raynekat Feb 12 2021, 12:21 AM

Started to have the same wonky high beam/fog light issue a year after installing my 914 Rubber LED bulbs.
At first, everything worked correctly.
Just recently, no fogs when I pull the fog light switch and instead the high beams come on.

So I just took the white/blue wire from the fog light relay and removed it from the other relay and went directly to ground with it.
Everything works the way I want it now.

This change makes the fogs independent of the headlight/high beam switches.
Can run the fogs on their own or with any combination of low/high beams.
Simple.

One thing I noticed was I had a couple of bad relays.
I think somehow the LED headlights are back feeding power into this fog light relay and frying them.
Had two bad ones I was trying to get working.
Bench tested them and both were inoperative.
Made the wiring changes above, and inserted new relay and was back in business.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Feb 23 2021, 07:32 PM

Was cutting of any wire needed for this mod? The way it is described you just relocated an existing push-on connector.

And what is the 'other' relay mentioned?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18263

Posted by: raynekat Feb 23 2021, 09:39 PM

Bruce, when I mentioned other relays, I meant the following.
The 1st couple of relays I had in my spare parts box to replace the fog light relay were all bad. Finally on the 3rd try, that relay worked. When I tested the previously tried relays, they all tested bad.

So not really other relay locations if that's what you're thinking. All the same fog light relay socket.

On my 71 wiring harness, the white with blue stripe wire at terminal 85 on the fog light relay goes over and joins up with another white wire. At that point both wires are terminated jointly in a male spade that goes to terminal 56 on the "combination" relay. It is here, where I cut the white with blue wire separate from the white wire. At this point, I could just take the white with blue stripe directly to ground.

Hope that's clear.
The white with blue stripe wire that goes to the combination relay relies on you turning on the high beams. At that point, terminal 56 on the "combination" relay affectively gets grounded. With LED headlights, for some reason this does not work anymore and strange things happen.

Posted by: Spoke Feb 24 2021, 05:33 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18263

The fogs on my 914 were not coming on. Turns out the relay had oxidized and was not making contact. I could hear the click of the relay pulling in but no contact. I cut the case open with my Dremel, cleaned the contacts and it works fine now.

Do your bad relays click when powered? Likely the contacts need cleaned and filed or sandpapered to bring them back to life.

Posted by: raynekat Feb 25 2021, 09:24 PM

Likely could have been that. Had plenty of spare relays to plug in, so just found one that worked. I've had much better luck with the old school aluminum case relays than the newer black plastic ones, but they are more difficult to find.

Posted by: mepstein Feb 25 2021, 09:31 PM

I had a couple on my '70.

Posted by: abes914 Jun 18 2021, 08:08 PM

I’ve been chasing the ghost of electrics for so so long ever since I converted to led lights all around. I thought I fixed them and then it came back. This is fixed it finally! Thank you 914world. So much geniuses here.

If I may suggest to maybe copy/move this in the classic section of the world?