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Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 4 2015, 07:49 PM

What would be my best solution for adding an oil cooler on the 2366 build I am starting? I've read about coolers that mount under the rear of the car and are cooled with a fan. Is this the right direction?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 5 2015, 09:14 AM

Probably not.

The amount of oil cooling an engine needs can vary quite a bit, depending on a ton and a half of things. So just seeing "2366" won't tell us how much cooling the engine needs.

But chances are that it will need a pretty decent amount, and under the trunk floor is far from the best location for the cooler. You ideally want the cooler to get a good supply of cool, clean, high-pressure air. Under the trunk floor it will get an indifferent supply of air warmed up by the engine and especially the exhaust. The fan helps, but only so much.

That setup is a compromise, and is generally used when there are other constraints that need to be satisfied. In my case, for instance, I did not want to run hoses forward in the car, nor cut holes for the air ducting. Mine is almost adequate for my particular 2.0 engine.

If I had to pick a setup for your car, I would say that you need to run a front-mounted cooler. It doesn't have to be a 914-6GT style, but that is a very well known setup. You need to duct air to the cooler, and duct the warmed-up air out from the cooler. You will lose some front trunk space to do it, though.

--DD

Posted by: Dion Oct 5 2015, 09:16 AM

I have hi-comp 96mm P&C "2056".
914Dave & I came up with this setup to keep
my oil temps healthy. Originally just a Mocal cooler sitting next
to trans. When I upgraded to the "2056" we added the electric fan and shroud/box. Never really above 220F on a hot run,
on a 90F day. Stays between 180-210F per the vdo gauge.
This works for my set up. Not knowing your set. I imagine the
heat units will be greater. Maybe trombone or other 911 style setup toward front
for more volume of cooling air. Good luck.

Cheers, Dion


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Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 5 2015, 10:07 AM

Tell us about your 2366.
I would imagine that it will need a bow mounted oil cooler - thats a lot of displacement for a T4.

Most of us running stern mounts are cooling 2L engines that don't need a lot of extra cooling to begin with.

Zach

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 5 2015, 10:57 AM

Sorry about that, I should have told you more to begin with. Here's what I'm building:

Stock 71mm crank
Stock 2.0L connecting rods
Stock 2.0L 3 bolt heads with new 36/42 valves
Forged JE 103mm pistons
Cast iron 103mm cylinders
SCAT C35 cam - .495" lift, 285 duration (matching lifters)
Weber 44 IDFs
Stock flywheel
Bursch exhaust
2.0 SS heat exchangers

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 5 2015, 04:55 PM

Put the cooler up front, and hope. The cast-iron 103s aren't known for running cool.

--DD

Posted by: Reno914 Oct 5 2015, 05:00 PM

Are you planning on running the stock fan and cooling for the engine, or is that planned to be upgraded with a DTM, or a Tangerine horizontal system?

Big engines require big cooling.


Reno

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 5 2015, 05:06 PM

And by "not known for running cool," he means they are known for running hot.

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 5 2015, 07:51 PM

Yes, I'm planning on running the stock cooling fan and tins.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 5 2015, 07:58 PM

When you say "up front" at what point do people just mount between bumper and chassis and at what point is the cooler installed in the front trunk with ducting?

Posted by: r_towle Oct 5 2015, 08:18 PM

A design that worked for almost 30 years.

Put the cooler up front and don't fear the cast iron cylinders.

Rich

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 5 2015, 08:21 PM

I have the same question. If someone could give me some more direction on this setup, I'd appreciate it.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 5 2015, 08:29 PM

30 years, 1/4 mile at a time...

--DD

Posted by: r_towle Oct 5 2015, 08:39 PM

Have you owned one?
I have and still do.
Built a few more that are still out there running around.
You are spreading another myth, and it's sad coming from you.

Posted by: Dion Oct 5 2015, 08:56 PM

PM sent.

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 6 2015, 06:28 AM

There's the bottleneck right there.

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 6 2015, 07:00 AM

I've been considering ditching the HE's. What would be a good alternative?

Posted by: JmuRiz Oct 6 2015, 08:26 AM

Give Racer Chris a call and he'll come up with a setup to help your big 4 exhale better...can even have heat boxes put on.

Posted by: wndsrfr Oct 6 2015, 10:56 AM

My 2316 has the Tangerine Evo .... That along with the big ITB's put out 165hp at the wheels....and the sound will put a smile on your face that you can't wipe off with a handful of hundred dollar bills!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 6 2015, 02:46 PM

So you have an engine running 103mm cast-iron cylinders for the past 30 years? For 100K miles or more? Impressive if so.

The "1/4 mile at a time" was an exaggeration, for effect.

The fact remains that the QC on the 103s and 105s that we could get for so long was pretty miserable. They also have smaller fins to still fit under stock tins, which doesn't help with heat.

Do they all have heat issues? Probably not. But I'd bet that the ones that don't either live in a nice cool climate, or had a whole lot of attention paid to the details of the configuration and setup. Details that, sad to say, most people don't seem to bother with.

So, I will retate an opinion--if you are running a 103x71 motor, put a big cooler on it, and hope. Unless you've sunk serious bucks into it, you have pretty strong odds of it running hot and living a short life.

--DD

Posted by: r_towle Oct 6 2015, 05:29 PM

Or you could talk to more than a few people, including the winner of the runoff so for more than a few years with a 2.6 and see what they are doing.

I also do agree, put an oil cooler on the motor.
Get headers from foley, he has a heat solution also.

Then drive it like you stole it.

Posted by: Cevan Oct 6 2015, 05:41 PM

And by "Foley" he means Chris Foley/http://tangerineracing.com/index.htm.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 6 2015, 08:21 PM

Dude, good to see you still lurking around...with a carrera no less....cool

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Oct 6 2015, 09:12 PM

Shane (Jetsetsurfshop) built a similar engine for his car. He tried all kinds of arrangements of ducting for a rear-mounted cooler. Found out he could only keep it cool with a front-mounted cooler. Granted, this is a track car, but even on the street, that's a lot of heat for a rear-mounted setup to deal with. Yes, the plumbing sucks, but in the long run, I still think it's better to just get it up front where it belongs.

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 7 2015, 08:43 AM

That seems to be the concensus. Any suggestions on how to accomplish this? If I do a front cooler, how do I keep the hot air from just getting hung up in the trunk? What about putting the cooler in the floor of the trunk, rather than the front of the car?

Posted by: 914werke Oct 7 2015, 09:11 AM

As sort of mentioned already, any effort to improve exhaust flow and reduce pumping losses will allow your "improved" engine to run cooler.
Limiting the amount of heat you have to shed will expand your options for how to (mechanically) deal with cooling of that extra heat.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 7 2015, 02:55 PM

The factory racers put the cooler at the very front of the front trunk. They cut holes for the air coming in, had ducting to make sure the air went through the cooler, then more ducting to run the air out the trunk floor. That's pretty much the "proper" way to do it. You can probably do much the same thing, and have the cooler on the trunk floor instead of at the front of the trunk. I suspect that the cooling effect will be about the same, because the air flow will be about the same, but I could be wrong.

I've only seen a couple of 914s with coolers in front of the body. One had it mounted as a very thick license plate bracket; that seemed to work pretty decently in the Pac NW. Others have put them in cut-out fiberglass versions of the 75-76 Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers. Not sure how the air was ducted away from those. They were there because of racing rules that prohibited holes in the body for cooling air.

--DD

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 7 2015, 06:58 PM

I'd like to keep the stock front valence and bumper, if at all possible. So, a couple ideas have been bouncing around in my head, any of them worth pursuing?

1) Mount oil cooler in front wheel well. Remove the horn and duct air to the cooler through the bumper grill.

2) Remove the front air box and put a scoop over the stock baffles. Mount oil cooler where the air box was and direct air over the cooler and out near the master cylinder

3) Use a rear mounted cooler with a fan and use an air duct cut in the rocker to force fresh air onto the cooler

Posted by: stugray Oct 8 2015, 09:54 PM

Some ideas in here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=56102

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 9 2015, 06:28 AM

Thanks Stu, that helps a lot. I really like Trekkor's setup (post #10 in your link). If I go that route, would a GT valence with the stock bumper give me the proper access to the grommet holes he is using for intake air?

Also, silly question time - how should I run the oil lines from the front trunk back to the engine?

Posted by: stugray Oct 9 2015, 10:16 AM

I ran mine through the pass side longs.
Some run them under the car, and some go under the rocker panel like the 914-6 GT.
Someone on here even made hardlines for that routing.
I'll bet that you could even use flared copper for those lines as long as they never took any load that could work harden them and cause them to crack.

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 9 2015, 10:50 AM

That would be interesting. So how would I put the fittings on to connect to the soft lines from the cooler and to the engine? What kind of flare would that be?

Posted by: 914mikee100 Oct 9 2015, 11:04 AM

Eric Shea sells a kit at PMB.

Posted by: rtalich Oct 9 2015, 12:58 PM

Link?? Don't see any such products on his website.

Posted by: VWTortuga336 Oct 9 2015, 01:15 PM

I didn't either. I saw some custom ones he built, but nothing off the shelf. I'm wondering if there is a way I can make my own hard lines. Anyone have any suggestions?

Posted by: stugray Oct 9 2015, 07:00 PM

http://www.tangerineracing.com/engine.htm

Middle of page.
It is not intended to be a front mount, but the only real difference is in the length of the hoses.
I used 12AN to run to the front & back again. 35 ft of 12 AN hose is pricey.
My entire front cooler system cost me close to $1000.