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Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 14 2015, 12:46 PM

I am getting going to get ready to put a 2056 FI engine together for a daily driver. Trying to decide if the cost is worth the difference. Biral are supposed to run 20 % cooler. Porsche used them for a couple of years and moved on to coatings.

Posted by: TJB/914 Nov 14 2015, 01:35 PM

Mark,
I'd spend the money & go biral, because you do everything right.
I went with a inexpensive high temp coating like the Harley Davison bikers.
It was less than $100 bucks and they look great and still holding up.
Temps are fine.
Tom



Attached image(s)

Posted by: r_towle Nov 14 2015, 04:07 PM

What do they cost?
What do they cost versus the aluminum ones?

Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 14 2015, 06:29 PM

Cost difference is about $80 dollars for set or $20 per cylinder. Biral cylinders are cast iron with aluminum fins. Stock cylinders are all cast iron.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 14 2015, 08:39 PM

Do it for 80 bucks...no doubt.


Not to go too far off topic here, but how do the aluminum fin set get bonded to the cast iron cylinder ?

Posted by: Catorse Nov 14 2015, 09:07 PM

The iron cylinder is cast first, and then the aluminum fins are cast around that. Finally, the iron cylinder is machined to spec. When complete, a biral cylinder is a single contiguous unit. It can also be rebored no problem.

They are lighter than iron cylinders obviously, and dissipate heat better.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 14 2015, 09:08 PM

No sleeves? No slippage ( like early 3.4 water cooled six) issues?

Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 14 2015, 09:14 PM

I found a deal on them for $230 for all 4 96mm biral cylinders. So the cost will only be $30 over the cast iron set. No reason not to go for it. Now I can afford the Keith Black pistons and rings.

Posted by: PotterPorsche Nov 14 2015, 09:22 PM

We are talking AA Biral cylinders right?

Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 14 2015, 09:28 PM

Yes, AA birals.

Posted by: PotterPorsche Nov 14 2015, 09:30 PM

http://aapistons.com/products/vw-96mm-type-4-cylinder-kit-biral?variant=742291987

$227 and there is a discount code for 15% off

That takes it down to $193 dollars

Posted by: r_towle Nov 14 2015, 09:31 PM

I have not heard wonderful things about AA cylinders so if this is a more complex manufacturing process I would suggest you work with a vendor that will take returns of singles until you get a set that matches to your specs and satisfaction.

Rich

Posted by: Catorse Nov 14 2015, 09:53 PM

I have AA pistons on my 356 motor, 1720 big bore. They seem to be holding up well. Went up there to check out there operation as they are local. Seem to be good people.

There is no slippage on Biral since the aluminum is cast onto the iron sleeve, which has ridges to keep the formed aluminum in place. 356 cylinders were biral from the factory. No problems with this.

Posted by: PotterPorsche Nov 14 2015, 09:59 PM

I've used the aa Pistons in a few engines. No problems so far. I have heard that you should get a dial bore gauge and inspect cylinder for roundness. I'm still planning my 96 or 98mm pistons for my 78 stroked engine.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 15 2015, 11:46 AM

Good prices at AA.

Does anyone know them?
If so could you ask them about doing Biral 103 mm cylinders?

The head prices are ridiculous, not even worth doing a set of stock heads at those prices.
Good to see this vendor.

Rich

Posted by: Mueller Nov 15 2015, 11:54 AM

It has been about 10 years it seems, but I had a set of AA piston and cylinders and one of the cylinder casting had a defect at the top where it mates to the head.

I called them and the next day someone from their SF office stopped by the house and exchanged the cylinder. I'm a good 1 hour East of SF so I am guessing he was heading this direction already.

Point is , I had a problem part and they helped correct it.

Posted by: Montreal914 Nov 15 2015, 11:56 AM

So are you saying that they are actually making them here in the LA area?
Can you buy direct from them?
They must have an inspection room where they can do measurement to ensure roundness

Posted by: mr2by4 Nov 15 2015, 02:15 PM

Odd that there is no additional cost on the heads to have them relocate the spark plugs to the 2.0 location. How do the economics of that work? It seems like the welding and re-machining would add some cost.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 15 2015, 02:22 PM

I don't see that in writing or in the pictures for the "stock" heads.

The $1700 modified heads mention it. I'd venture to say the stock replacement 2.0 heads just have the larger bores for the cylinders and that is all.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 15 2015, 03:18 PM

I have heard of earlier low-cost birals having slippage issues. I dont' know if it was AA, though.

I don't think I'd bother for a street-driven 2056, myself. Cast-iron has proven itself for that config over and over again.

--DD

Posted by: Catorse Nov 15 2015, 03:57 PM

I don't know if they are MAKING them in LA, but their offices are here. Maybe they do, but somehow I doubt it.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 15 2015, 06:08 PM

Biral 103 mm units could help solve heat issues for sure, and lower cost than all aluminum.

Posted by: PotterPorsche Nov 15 2015, 09:05 PM

AA are made overseas. Just like a majority of parts these days.You need to triple check all parts these days

Posted by: mr2by4 Nov 16 2015, 06:06 AM

Per their website (http://aapistons.com/products/porsche-914-2-0l-performance-cylinder-heads-42x36-pair)
"This is a brand new Set of 2 High Performance Cylinder Heads for a Porsche 914 2.0L The Stock Spark plug holes will be Welded up and relocated to the 914 2.0L position. A 4 stud intake Manifold will be required. Heads comes with Stainless Steel 42mm Intake and a Stainless Steel 36mm Exhaust Valves, with Harden Keepers, Chromoly retainers, and Single high rev springs. They are ready to install. Made from an AMC 1.8L type 4 Casting with Breather using 8mm valve stems it is available with both single or dual high rev springs. The heads can also be opened to 103 to accommodate the larger bore sizes. "

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 16 2015, 10:24 AM

Personally, on an engine that would be expected to be reliable in the long run, I'd still avoid 103's except for nickies.
Even with Nickies I still don't like how thin the skirts are with 103's, on my '67 beetle big T4 engine I'm running 102mm JE's.

For the biral's I'd stick to the 98's offered by aircooled(dot)net.
John at aircooled is a good guy and they for sure put some extra effort in the P&C sets they sell. If you look at the price of buying piston's alone it doesn't make sense to buy the components separately.
It costs more but they run JE slugs, if I was cheaping out on Nickies I would still pay the price and buy aircooled(dot)net's P&C set.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Piston-Cylinder-Set-98mm-x-66-76mm-JE-FORGED-T4-p/vw9800t4sb-je.htm

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Piston-Cylinder-Set-98mm-x-66-76mm-JE-FORGED-T4-p/vw9800t4b-je.htm

Posted by: PotterPorsche Nov 16 2015, 10:41 AM

I would probably buy from john as well and pay him to check with a dial bore gauge.


I believe john is getting these from AA as well.



As AA carries them as well.
http://aapistons.com/collections/vw-forged-piston-liner-kits/products/98mm-machine-in-aluminum-biral-w-je-forged-piston-need-to-be-edited

AA has 15% off so $ 687 for JE 98mm with birals.

Posted by: Steve Pratel Nov 16 2015, 12:28 PM

I've done this exactly once, so no expertise here, but I spent the first 2 years of my restoration project and engine rebuild reading, talking to people and researching.

The general consensus was that AA was inconsistent on quality, often out of round, chinese knockoff crap, and birals were a fad, and would likely not provide the same level of reliability and problem free performance as the cast iron over the life of the engine. Nikkies (spelling?) are the best way to go, but are very expensive.

The BEST way to go is to use the stock OEM cast iron cyls honed to your size if possible.

Talk to the guys at EMW, they have data sheets showing the quality and metallurgy/hardness characteristics of their cyls.

I went with KB pistons and new Cyls from EMW, couldn't be happier.....

Posted by: 914Sixer Nov 16 2015, 05:36 PM

Part numbers a EMW and Aircool.net are the SAME as what is listed at AA pistons. We know where the parts are being bought.

Pulled the trigger and bought the 96mm KB pistons and rings from European Motor Works and the 96mm biral cylinders from AA. Used the 15% off at AA, paid for the cylinder shipping.

Posted by: 72hardtop Nov 23 2015, 05:19 PM

I'm using AA birals in my 2056cc T-4. I'm now just over 15,000 miles (US) and the bus is running beautifully. Take a listen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EoAeY8dG0o

Posted by: 72hardtop Feb 7 2018, 04:43 PM

Just wanted to update....

Just turned 21,XXX miles (US) on my setup (96mm AA birals) in my 1972 Westy hardtop and it's still running great. Oil consumption is very minimal have not had to add any oil in the last ~1000 miles (since oil change).

Posted by: Mueller Feb 7 2018, 04:47 PM

Thanks for the update.

Posted by: crash914 Feb 7 2018, 07:50 PM

The old school birals you mentioned were from CB. I have a NOS set in the box at 100mm...

Posted by: Highland Feb 7 2018, 09:11 PM

Wondering if anybody has temperature data with the birals?

Posted by: 914_teener Feb 8 2018, 09:41 AM

I wondered the same.

I would quess that a black entropy coating might be as effective for the cost.

I struggled with thermodynamics that.s why I.m a civil eng. Maybe somebody has done the math?

You would have to measure it on nearly identical engines.

Posted by: gothspeed Feb 8 2018, 02:14 PM

Depending on how thick the cylinder walls are, I think biral cylinders are a good thing

Posted by: 72hardtop Oct 8 2018, 05:06 AM

They run between 10-15% cooler than non biral cylinder.

Posted by: Chi-town Oct 8 2018, 10:16 AM

I'm confused here

Why would you want any coating on cylinders that isn't a thermal dispersal type?

Any type of coating would slow the transfer of heat out of the cylinder and isn't that a bad thing for air-cooled engines?

Posted by: worn Oct 8 2018, 10:32 AM

Well, you have the color right as I understand thermodynamics. Black radiates quicker. I kinda think we are talking more convection than radiant cooling though.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 8 2018, 11:13 AM

Yep.

The black coatings are an entropic type and do radiate heat.

I'm doing a stock set of heat exhangers.

Just got back on them.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 8 2018, 11:37 AM

http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-descriptions/bbe-heat-emitting-coating/

Posted by: tomeric914 Oct 8 2018, 01:35 PM

Head temps are the main concern, not cylinders. Look at a 911 engine for example, the fins are not as deep as a VW cylinder.

FWIW, I have built many engines using AA cylinders. My 2270 is 20 years old now with who knows how many miles and has cast iron 96mm AA cylinders with KB pistons.