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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Dealing with the added power...

Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 09:43 AM

My available power on the a/x track is greatly increased due to the added two cylinders.

If I romp on the throttle it steers around into a spin.
And I carry WAY more speed into the turns, so more braking is required.

There are other Bay Area locals who will have to deal with this as well. Randal, Andy, Nathan, Britain and others will put their new power to the pavement for the first time as well in just a little while.

Learning to drive again is fun yet frustrating.

KT

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Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 23 2005, 09:56 AM

A-Xing is different than track days, but I like to throttle steer. I loved that camera footage you posted the other day. That rocked. I am working on getting my six together. Just have a few other things to button up and I can get back to work on my own project.

Posted by: ! Mar 23 2005, 10:01 AM

Couple of things....you can dial in a little understeer, soften the rear springs, add an LSD if you haven't already....

BTW...I know this guy...he has an LSD equipped trans all ready to go....

Posted by: mudfoot76 Mar 23 2005, 10:09 AM

Are you sure that front air dam isn't catching on the ground and causing you to spin?

Posted by: ! Mar 23 2005, 10:15 AM

He's the pre-runner....sweeps the course of debris.

Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 23 2005, 10:17 AM

QUOTE (mikez @ Mar 23 2005, 08:15 AM)
He's the pre-runner....sweeps the course of debris.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 23 2005, 11:39 AM

i wonder if that effects any cooling.......

(the negative pressure zone under the car....blcoked by the streetsweeper dam)

Posted by: ! Mar 23 2005, 11:41 AM

No worries about snow either.....

Posted by: McMark Mar 23 2005, 01:37 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Mar 23 2005, 09:39 AM)
i wonder if that effects any cooling.......

(the negative pressure zone under the car....blcoked by the streetsweeper dam)

The four only saw a small increase in temp. I doubt it's that big of an issue.

Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 02:14 PM

The Sweeper Dam is my friend.

With the giant cooling fan on the SIX, high temps are a non-issue.

Keep the feedback coming so I can take the 914Cup...What?...Whoops.

KT

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 23 2005, 02:15 PM

Heh..... at my first AX after I removed the 2.4 & put in the 2.7, I got maybe 200 yards before I was going backwards

I never AX my car when it had a t-4, but I AXed JimC's car last summer and was amazed by how easy it was to drive....foot to the floor & steer.

With even minor changes comes a learning curve & spins/daid cones are part of that.....I do this every season

In my experience, 914s give little or no warning rear end of break away.
To have to learn to anticipate that.....you kinda get a feel for it thru G loads.

They definitely will spin while trail braking....that can be used to an advantage, but if your going too fast, nothing will save you .....butt time is the key. Straight line braking is good till you learn to anticipate.

If it's pushing, a *big* lift on the go pedal will bring the back end around......but be ready to counter steer
and jump back on the go pedal. I got to practice that on a skid pad last year. A little lift won't do it, but get it right and I could dirt track around half of the circle...not the quick way around, but it will save a run.

If you're not looping the thing occasionaly, your not trying hard enuff.....to often and you're pushing too hard. .....the red mist. You can't learn under the influence of the mist.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 23 2005, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (Sammy @ Mar 23 2005, 11:53 AM)
If anything, a low pressure zone under the car should improve cooling.

nope ...

his airdam does make the (4 cyl.) engine run hotter. doesn't matter much for AX, but on the big track, you'll see a significant rise in oil-temp.
the 4 cyl. cars *need* a significant air flow under the car for cooling.
they even added the "flaps" on later cars to enhance the effect ...

Andy

Posted by: Brando Mar 23 2005, 02:34 PM

If the ass-end is swinging around on you taildragger style... You can do a few things as mentioned above. First thing I'd do is look for some better gripping tires and corner-balance it, preload the suspension accordingly to get 50/50 or as close as possible.

Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 03:09 PM

Thanks, JP.

I was still coughing up a little red this morning.

Seat time. Where have I heard that before?

My tires are Yokohama A032R's treadwear of 60 or Hoosier R3S03's with treadwear of 40 .

Without going to non DOT tires, it don't get much schtickier

My problem is ME. There I said it! ME, ME, ME!!!

KT

Posted by: fiid Mar 23 2005, 03:36 PM

I suppose the air under the car is used to cool the oil in the sump - hence why the sump has fins on it.

I bet Jake knows the deal with this..... I also wonder how it effects engines on the dyno - do you have to create false airflow to keep the engine from overheating?

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 23 2005, 03:37 PM

You ain't gonna get an arguement outta me

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 23 2005, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Sammy @ Mar 23 2005, 01:31 PM)
Not trying to start an argument here, just scratching my haid.

the airflow under the car helps to move hot air away from the underside of the engine and exhaust.
has nothing to do with the fan intake on the top ...

they added the flaps just in front of the engine on later cars to create turbulence (sp?) to suck out even more hot air from under the engine.

if you run a big ass front air dam, you don't get much airflow under the car thus not moving any hot air away from the underside which in return increases oil/engine temps.

as i said before, on an AX, the runs are so short, it doesn't matter much, but on the street or on the big track, you'll see a significant raise in engine/oil temps if you run a air-dam like trekkors ...

Andy

Posted by: ! Mar 23 2005, 03:39 PM

Yup....seat time an ONE adjustment at a time. I was a rather competenet AXer with my 70 2.0....took class wins more than a few times. Converted to a 3.0 and I was turning in slower times on the same courses....took me about 12 events to get back to where I was before.....

Patience......screw it....I want it NOW.....

Ahem, ignore the kook behind the screen....

Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 23 2005, 03:51 PM

I will be putting this to the test here next week. My son whacked a cone about 1 foot from dead center. Smashed the shit out of the cow catcher air dam. So I will go back to the early nose cone / belly pad. I bet it will really affect how the car handles on the freeway @85MPH BTW this is where I get the engine warm 345 with oil temps near 220. Takes about 75 miles to get this warm and levels out about there.

So stay tuned. WISH I HAD MORE HP!!!!!!! Getting braver with my 4 as I have my foot planted to the floor lots more now. 6000 RPM shifts 2nd to 3rd back to the floor till I reach the next feature sometimes I lift, Most always lift for the slalom just can't steer that fast.

Posted by: ChrisReale Mar 23 2005, 04:11 PM

Trekk,
You might (prolly already have, knowing you... consider going 5 lug to add the 911 brakes. That would make things a bit more "in control"

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 23 2005, 04:27 PM

That skid pad deal was interesting. I figured that it would be a waste of good rubber, but I was wrong. The car was plowing within a half lap (100 foot radius). More throttle meant more plow.....I couldn't
get the back end around, small lifts didn't do anything.
I figured if I tapped the brakes to set the front, maybe that would do it......my foot never got to the brake pedal, tho.....here it comes....unwind quick,counter steer and OTG.
WHEEE! Never looped it either

If you ever get a chance at a skid pad, go for it. Plenty of time to dick around and see what your car does.

Posted by: db9146 Mar 23 2005, 05:16 PM

You know...with that spoiler and a really big fan ducted UP through the deck cover instead of down, it could be the 914 version of the infamous "sucker" Chapparral.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 23 2005, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (ChrisReale @ Mar 23 2005, 03:11 PM)
Trekk,
You might (prolly already have, knowing you... consider going 5 lug to add the 911 brakes. That would make things a bit more "in control"

unless he is overheating the brakes, I don't see this as a worth while upgrade...rotors in good shape with good quality pads, fresh fluid and bleed properly should be enough for auto-x...

Posted by: mskala Mar 23 2005, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Brando @ Mar 23 2005, 03:34 PM)
... and corner-balance it, preload the suspension accordingly to get 50/50 or as close as possible.

You can't corner balance to change the F/R or L/R weight ratios.
But corner balancing will be good for making everything work
right.

My original engine'd '6 does not have any real power, so I don't
much throttle steering at AX. Usually I end up spinning the
inside tire a bit and nothing interesting happens.

Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 05:51 PM

Regarding the Sweeper Dam:

I've hit cones dead on at 70 mph and nothing. The dzus fasteners don't even budge. I scarf 'em cones down.

I'm trying to set up a skid pad fest for myself at Sears here pretty soon.

KT

Posted by: Travis Neff Mar 23 2005, 06:12 PM

watch out for the old fogies and their shopping carts. Might hurt a little worse picking out pieces of old lady out of your horn grilles

Posted by: Steve_7x Mar 23 2005, 07:30 PM

Trekkor....

Seat time - as stated above makes all the diference - helps you become one with the car - and no this is not a zen thing but a fmiliarity

Focus on being smooth. When in B, or A we have a tendency to stomp on the throttle - that will not work with more hp/torque. When you are smooth you have less of the switching from gas to brake.

Anticipate and in advance find markers to tell you when to turn, when to lift, when to brake. Don't forget seat time...

Make adjustments when in a turn... these are small adjsutments in throttle, slight lift and the rear begins to rotate and then press the throttle. Same with the steering, little adjustments (slight sawing on the wheel) to keep you on the edge and the whole car steers better. This will help you keep momentum and make your drive smoother. Don't forget seat time...

You need to refine your skills, while learning a new car (each performance mod makes it a new car...).... a very tough thing to do... Did I mention get seat time ;-)

steve

Posted by: Brad Roberts Mar 23 2005, 07:38 PM

The rear wheel lifting issue was the rear bar holding the tire up... because the FRONT bar was not set stiff enough allowing for excessive body roll. He later made an adjustment and I didnt see it happen again. I spoke to Trekkor offline about the 911 who took TTD.. they guy was coasting for the first 1/4 of the track. He had a ton of power/stick and only applied it when the car was straight. Trekkor has been taught in the past "all gas or all brake" this doesnt work for everyone especially people with Hp and torque. I tell people with 1.7/1.8/2.0 engines "flat on the gas or brake"..not people with 6 cyl engines.

B

Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2005, 07:48 PM

Exactly, I was hard braking and then full throttle as I entered a hard turn.
Instant spin or " snap oversteer", as Grant called it. You'll all have fun re-living the moment as I'll be posting in-car spin video this evening.

I was watching John Beck run his winged 911 on video.
Same as Brad said. Throttle, coast, touch, coast, full throttle on exit.

He was 3 seconds faster than me. ( who wasn't )

KT