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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Saved $2 ended up costing $1000's
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 11:46 AM
I bought my /6 last year pretty much complete. Everything was well done. 911 suspension all around. 911 brakes all around including drum emergency brake on the rears. It appeared to be a "no costs spared" restoration.
Here is the detail on just the brakes: "Brake system was upgraded in many ways. Porsche 911E front struts were installed in order to handle Porsche 911S "A" calipers. New vented front and rear 911 brake rotors. All metal brake lines and rubber hoses were replaced. The rear brake calipers are rebuilt and come from a Porsche 911S. Factory spacer shims added to the rear "M" calipers to accommodate the vented rotors. A machined spacer was added to the inside of the new rotors to align the rotor centerline to the caliper centerline. New factory rear stub axles were purchased in Germany to complete the five mounting bolt wheel conversion. The parking brake system is now the Porsche 911 type brake shoes within the brake rotor design."
Last week I decided it was time to take the cars out of hibernation. The /6 was on top of the lift and the red flared car was under the lift. I got in the red car and noticed the WAS top was all but shattered. I pulled the car out of the garage and noticed it was wet. Apparently the master cylinder failed in the top car and emptied all the brake fluid into my drip pan, which eventually leaked.
Besides the WAS top getting demolished, we all know what brake fluid can do to paint. I took it to 2 different body shops and am waiting for estimates. So far for paint it will need the hood, right front fender, passenger door, windshield frame, rear fender and rear deck lid.
Today I got under the /6 and removed the 23mm master cylinder thinking the internal rubber seals had failed, but I don't think so. The grommets from the reservoir were damp. Upon removal I noticed neither of the grommets had the REQUIRED washer under them. I think it was just a lack of experience as to why they didn't get installed because they are 62 cents a piece at Stoddard (http://www.stoddard.com/90135593600.html). Why it failed over the Winter is a mystery as the temperature in the garage never gets below 45 degrees.
There are several lessons to be learned here.
#1 - If you don't know what you are doing don't do it, especially when it comes to brakes.
#2 - Bulletproof your drip trays if you are storing a car underneath another one...
#3 - Have good insurance even when stored in a garage.
Posted by: Ferg Mar 22 2016, 11:50 AM
Man that just sucks all the way around. Sorry Mike.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 11:51 AM
Man that just sucks all the way around. Sorry Mike.Thanks Ferg. At least no one was hurt in brake failure...
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 22 2016, 12:13 PM
Wow that is not Good....you'll getr done right !!
Posted by: mepstein Mar 22 2016, 12:15 PM
That's a bad day. I'm sorry.
Posted by: jd74914 Mar 22 2016, 12:19 PM
That really does suck. I hope insurance is kind to you. On the positive side, like you said, at least no one got hurt.
Posted by: Chris H. Mar 22 2016, 12:47 PM
Thanks Ferg. At least no one was hurt in brake failure...
That's what I thought happened. Glad there's not a pic of a smashed red teener. Still sucks man. Sorry to hear that
.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 12:51 PM
Thanks Ferg. At least no one was hurt in brake failure...
That's what I thought happened. Glad there's not a pic of a smashed red teener. Still sucks man. Sorry to hear that
.Just a broken spirit - for the moment. New M/C going in right now - with WASHERS!
Posted by: JRust Mar 22 2016, 12:53 PM
Man I can relate to coming out to the shop to find damage . Sorry to hear it bud. Best of luck with the insurance stuff. I am sure they will take good care of you.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 01:04 PM
Man I can relate to coming out to the shop to find damage
. Sorry to hear it bud. Best of luck with the insurance stuff. I am sure they will take good care of you.Jamie - I thought of you today when I was under the car "playing" with the fluid supply lines..........
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 01:15 PM
I decided to do an overnight leak test before putting the M/C back in. I never got the "snap" when seating the line in the M/C.
Posted by: mgp4591 Mar 22 2016, 02:08 PM
Great idea- sure beats finding it out the hard way...
Almost tempted to play with an old m/c, threading inlets and running hard lines from a better vantage point. A single bubble flare might seat up just fine in the top bores. 
Again, sorry to hear that but it's better than a failure on the road.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 02:10 PM
Great idea- sure beats finding it out the hard way...
Almost tempted to play with an old m/c, threading inlets and running hard lines from a better vantage point. A single bubble flare might seat up just fine in the top bores.
Again, sorry to hear that but it's better than a failure on the road.
Thanks - it will be fixed by Route 66 Classic.
This is the way it should be done. Not my picture (dlee I think) but I like the concept. 3/8" NPT if I remember correctly.
Posted by: saigon71 Mar 22 2016, 02:33 PM
Absolutely brutal. Sorry to hear Mike.
Posted by: brant Mar 22 2016, 02:36 PM
crapp...... so sorry this happened... that sucks!
Posted by: Garland Mar 22 2016, 02:41 PM
I had the same thing happen to a 914 years ago, the fluid ate the seal for the windshield, glass came loose.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Mar 22 2016, 02:43 PM
Oh man....that is just a shame. But, at least you weren't driving when it failed.
Posted by: whitetwinturbo Mar 22 2016, 02:49 PM
......spring HAS sprung!
Posted by: Sleepin Mar 22 2016, 02:51 PM
Ugh....the only thing worse than hearing about the damage is hearing the cause. Sorry Mike! Like many have said, no one was hurt! Paint can be replaced...people can't!
At least you don't have to match the color of paint on the /6! 
Posted by: scotty b Mar 22 2016, 03:10 PM
Sorry to hear this. I have a local customer I did a 930 for a few years back and he left the 930 under his 356 over the winter. Went in to check on them one day and found the carbs on the 356 had leaked gas all over the tail and 1/4 panel of the 930 Fortunately I still had enough of the original paint mix left to fix it.
Anywhere the paint got wet needs to be stripped to bare metal. If the paint wrinkled/lifted, then the primer and bondo under the paint have absorbed the brake fluid, and it WILL show itself in the future. Most likely on a nice warm sunny day.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 03:13 PM
At least you don't have to match the color of paint on the /6!
Actually if the /6 was dripped on I would go back to the original color L97A -
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 03:14 PM
Anywhere the paint got wet needs to be stripped to bare metal. If the paint wrinkled/lifted, then the primer and bondo under the paint have absorbed the brake fluid, and it WILL show itself in the future. Most likely on a nice warm sunny day.
Scotty - that is good information - thanks!
Maybe I should just buy Donald's blue flared car and stuff the 2.7L in it....
Posted by: Sleepin Mar 22 2016, 03:36 PM
Actually if the /6 was dripped on I would go back to the original color L97A -
Diamond Silver was nice! (yeah...I did have to look that one up)
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 03:48 PM
Actually if the /6 was dripped on I would go back to the original color L97A -
Diamond Silver was nice! (yeah...I did have to look that one up)
I wasn't going to make it easy.....
Posted by: JRust Mar 22 2016, 04:20 PM
Thanks - it will be fixed by Route 66 Classic.
This is the way it should be done. Not my picture (dlee I think) but I like the concept. 3/8" NPT if I remember correctly.
I agree! I hate those damn feed lines. In my v8 car it took me 2 years to figure out why I kept getting leaks despite replacing my MC multiple times. There was just enough flex in my pedal that after a while it would pull my lines out just enough to start leaking
So even when I got them seated properly. They would end up pulling themselves out just enough. Drove me Nuckin Futs 
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 05:15 PM
There was just enough flex in my pedal that after a while it would pull my lines out just enough to start leaking
So even when I got them seated properly. They would end up pulling themselves out just enough. Drove me Nuckin Futs I would install a brace like this one if no welding was required..
http://www.tangerineracing.com/brakes.htm
Oh yeah - if you don't think the M/C flexes watch this: https://youtu.be/CUdPmitJ9XQ
Posted by: mgp4591 Mar 22 2016, 05:16 PM
Great idea- sure beats finding it out the hard way...
Almost tempted to play with an old m/c, threading inlets and running hard lines from a better vantage point. A single bubble flare might seat up just fine in the top bores.
Again, sorry to hear that but it's better than a failure on the road.
Thanks - it will be fixed by Route 66 Classic.
This is the way it should be done. Not my picture (dlee I think) but I like the concept. 3/8" NPT if I remember correctly.
Actually Mike, I was thinking about running hard lines up to the reservoir then attaching hoses for the short distance. Might make it easier to track leaks since you'd have a visible finite length of hose to deal with...
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 22 2016, 05:18 PM
Actually Mike, I was thinking about running hard lines up to the reservoir then attaching hoses for the short distance. Might make it easier to track leaks since you'd have a visible finite length of hose to deal with...
Even better!
Posted by: porschetub Mar 23 2016, 12:20 AM
Actually Mike, I was thinking about running hard lines up to the reservoir then attaching hoses for the short distance. Might make it easier to track leaks since you'd have a visible finite length of hose to deal with...
Even better!
Did you say 23mm cylinder ?,thats huge,why?,just asking
.Yes what PO's do has caused me issues.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 07:47 AM
Did you say 23mm cylinder ?,thats huge,why?,just asking
.Yes what PO's do has caused me issues.
Yes 23mm. Previous Owner thought bigger was better I guess. I will admit that while the pedal does feel different (not much movement up top) it stops great - though it take some pressure. It would be tough to modulate if I were tracking the car - which I don't - so it is fine. Just overkill. The car does have 911 brakes on all four corners but the 19mm would have been perfect.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 23 2016, 08:38 AM
Sorry to hear this.
I have a local customer I did a 930 for a few years back and he left the 930 under his 356 over the winter. Went in to check on them one day and found the carbs on the 356 had leaked gas all over the tail and 1/4 panel of the 930 Fortunately I still had enough of the original paint mix left to fix it. Anywhere the paint got wet needs to be stripped to bare metal. If the paint wrinkled/lifted, then the primer and bondo under the paint have absorbed the brake fluid, and it WILL show itself in the future. Most likely on a nice warm sunny day.
Drats!
and pull that windshield. Have the shop just slice the plastic clips with a razor blade. That will allow them to remove the windshield trim without damage. Anyplace the fluid could creep needs to be checked and cleaned. 3 piece windshield rubber, pull the rubber from the bright work and the bright work from the pillars, Sail panel trim, hood seal, all door weather strips and triangle window trim. Do it now or do it later. There's always time to do it right the second time...
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 08:45 AM
and pull that windshield. Have the shop just slice the plastic clips with a razor blade. That will allow them to remove the windshield trim without damage. Anyplace the fluid could creep needs to be checked and cleaned. 3 piece windshield trim, pull the rubber from the bright work and the bright work from the pillars, Sail panel trim, hood seal, all door weather strips and triangle window trim. Do it now or do it later. There's always time to do it right the second time...
Unfortunately the PO of the red car used urethane on the windshield and then used the cheap black rubber trim. He was going for the "black out" look. Notice the triangle glass trim and door window trim. He even painted the sail panel chrome black. Something I have been wanting to change since I bought the car 8 years ago... I guess I have an opportunity now!
Posted by: Sleepin Mar 23 2016, 08:46 AM
Teardown party Mike?
They have the new sign installed on Red Mountain, so we should be good to go.
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Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 08:55 AM
Teardown party Mike?
Any reason for a party suits me!
I do want to remove a bunch of stuff prior to the body shop "masking and shooting" which I think they will do.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 08:56 AM
I think you need a turbo to clear that!
Posted by: r_towle Mar 23 2016, 09:15 AM
Sorry this happened to you.
I had something far less damaging happen the first year I had my four post lift.
It trained me to cover the bottom car with a sheet of plastic, all on top of the car cover to prevent this from happening again.
Never know what will leak out from these old cars.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 09:30 AM
Sorry this happened to you.
I had something far less damaging happen the first year I had my four post lift.
It trained me to cover the bottom car with a sheet of plastic, all on top of the car cover to prevent this from happening again.
Never know what will leak out from these old cars.
Thanks Rich - Great advice - and advice I will follow this day forward - cheers!
Part of this post was to share what happened in the hope that others won't suffer the same damage.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 23 2016, 09:36 AM
ouch,
Sorry this happened to you.
I had something far less damaging happen the first year I had my four post lift.
It trained me to cover the bottom car with a sheet of plastic, all on top of the car cover to prevent this from happening again.
Never know what will leak out from these old cars.
I'm thinking of sewing a plastic sheet onto a car cover, I've had oil drip on my car but I never thought about brake fluid.
This is a wake up call for sure.
Posted by: gridgway Mar 23 2016, 10:17 AM
Not sure a sheet of plastic will be proof against brake fluid over a winter!
Sorry this happened to you.
I had something far less damaging happen the first year I had my four post lift.
It trained me to cover the bottom car with a sheet of plastic, all on top of the car cover to prevent this from happening again.
Never know what will leak out from these old cars.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 10:19 AM
Not sure a sheet of plastic will be proof against brake fluid over a winter!
I am thinking about a big blue Harbor Freight tarp over the California Car cover........
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 23 2016, 10:51 AM
McMark has a bolt in master support....May not work with the 23mm,
check with him...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=202478&hl=brake+support
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 11:04 AM
McMark has a bolt in master support....May not work with the 23mm,
check with him...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=202478&hl=brake+support
Thanks Jeff - I think that was his video I posted.
It should be on all cars I think. My other 914's have 19mm M/C's.
Posted by: gridgway Mar 23 2016, 11:48 AM
One of the problems of a huge (23mm) master cylinder is that the pedal is rock hard and takes a lot of pushing to use - making the bulkhead flex worse.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 23 2016, 01:31 PM
One of the problems of a huge (23mm) master cylinder is that the pedal is rock hard and takes a lot of pushing to use - making the bulkhead flex worse.
Good point! The rubber grommet nearest the firewall looked a little tweaked when I examined it. It had to be the source of failure.
Posted by: mgp4591 Mar 23 2016, 03:57 PM
Would there be anything wrong with welding in thicker piece of metal on either the front or the back of the m/c mounting area to help dissipate the force being applied? Not just a flat piece - something that would really fit the area without transmitting the flex to the surrounding metal making it flex also?
Posted by: r_towle Mar 23 2016, 08:06 PM
Not sure a sheet of plastic will be proof against brake fluid over a winter!
I am thinking about a big blue Harbor Freight tarp over the California Car cover........
Tarps leak fluid.
Plastic does not.
For brake fluid....daily spot check would help.
Or better drain pan setup
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 24 2016, 07:41 AM
Not sure a sheet of plastic will be proof against brake fluid over a winter!
I am thinking about a big blue Harbor Freight tarp over the California Car cover........
Tarps leak fluid.
Plastic does not.
For brake fluid....daily spot check would help.
Or better drain pan setup
Yes to all of the above!
Posted by: RobW Mar 24 2016, 08:08 AM
Wow, sorry Mike. You'll laugh about this someday... just not today.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 24 2016, 08:41 AM
Wow, sorry Mike. You'll laugh about this someday... just not today.
It is just a hassle - not the end of the world. It gives me something to do.
Remember the best things in life aren't even things.......
Hope you are well - cheers!
Posted by: worn Mar 24 2016, 09:12 AM
Upon removal I noticed neither of the grommets had the REQUIRED washer under them. I think it was just a lack of experience as to why they didn't get installed because they are 62 cents a piece at Stoddard (http://www.stoddard.com/90135593600.html). Why it failed over the Winter is a mystery as the temperature in the garage never gets below 45 degrees.
There are several lessons to be learned here.
#1 - If you don't know what you are doing don't do it, especially when it comes to brakes.
#2 - Bulletproof your drip trays if you are storing a car underneath another one...
#3 - Have good insurance even when stored in a garage.
That is a dumb but easy to make mistake. I think it should be noted that even well maintained brake systems can find a way to corrode and drip - not like yours, but drip nonetheless. That's why we look for it. I say this because I have seen many cars stacked without any drip pans or barriers. Maybe your disaster can save someone else. It might be painful but pictures would be worthwhile. Sorry for your disaster and gold no one was hurt.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 24 2016, 09:43 AM
That is a dumb but easy to make mistake. I think it should be noted that even well maintained brake systems can find a way to corrode and drip - not like yours, but drip nonetheless. That's why we look for it. I say this because I have seen many cars stacked without any drip pans or barriers. Maybe your disaster can save someone else. It might be painful but pictures would be worthwhile. Sorry for your disaster and gold no one was hurt.
The car was restored over 5 years ago - and I have owned it for 1 year. I never noticed a single drip up front. Now under the engine is another story.
During the Winter is probably failed and started to drip - first in the steering rack cover pan then into the drip tray (2X4 frame with Masonite bottoms and caulked all around). It then puddle to a corner of the drip pan where it slowly ate away the caulk material and found its way to the car below.
I do hope that this saves someone some future mishap.
See you at Route 66 - hopefully in the car that leaked - cheers!
Posted by: Sleepin Mar 24 2016, 09:44 AM
Remember the best things in life aren't even things.......
Best thing I have read all day!
Posted by: Kansas 914 Mar 24 2016, 09:46 AM
Remember the best things in life aren't even things.......
Best thing I have read all day!
I try and live it - though it would be hard to tell from the three 914s and 16 pinball machines....
Posted by: Sleepin Mar 24 2016, 09:59 AM
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