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Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 07:43 AM

ok, as you all know by now I have a burnt valve, and I think that's it.

however, I'm catching a lot of grief from people saying I should split the case, do everything!!!

I understand that if I want this 1.7 to last another 100k miles I do need to do this... however, if I only need to fix what's wrong until next summer/spring... is it ok, to just do the top-end(rings/heads) now? I plan to completely rebuild next summer, or next winter(2004) at the latest, put 96mm pistons with a 71mm(or 78mm) crank, new cam...the works!!! at most I will put 1-3k miles on the engine between now and then. I hardly drive it in the winter... no heater b/c of headers...

so, can you do the rings and heads without cracking the case and checking main bearings, rod bearings and everything that will be replaced in a year anyway?

I just didn't want to to all of this and have to do it all again when I trick out the engine...

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 17 2003, 08:20 AM

Sure you can just do the heads and the rings. If you are doing the rings make sure that you can. Check the cylinders specs and the pistons to make sure they are in spec. Clean the pistons and rings lands carefully.
Why do you even want to do the rings? How many miles on this motor? You could just get away with doing the heads.

Geoff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 09:12 AM

I'm unsure about the miles... the OD says 40k... which could be 40, 140 or 540!!
and that's assuming it's accurate! and the PO said the engine has been rebuilt once already.

I was just going to do the rings to be sure and fix the low compression... but I am thinking I will do the heads, then retest the compression and see if I need to do the rings... it was more of a "why not do the rings?" but then I was thinking that if I did the rings, the case may leak afterward....

I'm going to drop the engine today(my first time, wish me luck), and I want my ducks in a row...

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Jun 17 2003, 09:33 AM

Relax a bit. What is offered here is advice... but it's still your car and your wallet.

Most of us LOVE to spend other people's money, and poison other enthusiasts with DirkWright's Disease. As long as it doesn't happen to US. ;-)

I've made repairs to just "get by" until I could plan time, funds and a place to do a more preferred maintenance.

We'll help, whatever you choose to do.

Good luck,
Lawrence

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 09:49 AM

I need a chain smoking smiley... this is close enough...



I shouldn't have had so much coffee!

I may only do the heads now... when I told people I had a burnt valve it immediately to ... check your crank, mains, and a dozen other things... and then everyone was telling me I was basically killing my engine b/c of it... I see the point but why cut off my finger just b/c I got a scratch?!


it bacame a bad case of "scope-creep" where everyone was saying "well, you may as well do this... and if you do that you should do this... " until it became "tear it down and start over!!!" and I'm over here like "WTF just happened?!"

ok, but now I don't feel crazy, or like I'm going to FUBAR the whole thing by just replacing the heads...

Posted by: rdauenhauer Jun 17 2003, 09:59 AM

Ive been here, phreak. Sorrta, I had a hi milage 1.7 that was a screamer. I guess I drove it a little to hard for its age cuz a ex valve head broke and stuck in the top o the head...Stopped dead. Suprisingly little damage. Replaced valve a little welding in the head to repair the "DENT" and back on. At the time it was my only transpo and I needed it to make me $.

Posted by: Mueller Jun 17 2003, 10:01 AM

My 1st 914 had all the records from the original owner...they did the re-ring of the pistons every 30k to 40k miles according to the documentation.

Nothing wrong with just freshening up the top end, this is commen practice with the 911 motors (of course the oiling system and bottom end of a 911 motor is far superior than a Type IV motor, but that is another story )

With the pistons and cylinders off, you can inspect the bottom end of the motor a little visually. You can also check the end play of the crank in the motor, if within spec and eveything looks good, slap the heads back on.

I would recommend new rings and cleaning up of the cylinders if within spec.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 10:50 AM

plan as of now...

pull off heads(motor out)
check cylinders, make sure not worn out of spec or in desperate need of honing (scars)
put back on new heads(thanks again to Korijo!!) with gaskets
check compression again(can this be done with the engine out?)


if the compression is ok, I'm leaving it alone
if not, I'll do it all again to change the rings...

good enough plan?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 17 2003, 11:31 AM

Check the rings as follows:
Warm up engine
pull all the spark plugs
Do a compression test for all cylinders, record results
Squirt alittle motor oil in each cylinder
Redo compression test
Compare results
if the test in each cylinder improves alot say from 90lbs to 120lbs the rings are shot.
if the test results are in the 90 to 95lbs the valves are the real problem here and re ringing is a waste of money.
I don't like rebuilt heads and new rings on a old bottom end. The strain on the bearings can result in a thrown rod bearing. It's just too much to ask for high mileage bearings. (150K)
I am just trying to save you time and money on a motor you will rebuild later. But you might as well have something that is not a time bomb.

Geoff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 01:11 PM

I'll give the oil trick a try today... then pull tommorrow if weather allows. (looks like rain today) that will tell me if I need to order the rings or not.

does anyone here who has converted to carbs know where to get the intake gaskets? they are supposed to be different(thinner) than the FI intake gaskets.

Posted by: need4speed Jun 17 2003, 06:03 PM

Just to pass on an argument in favor of doing the rings (and pistons and cylinders).

Disclaimer: I'm a type 1 guy, don't have a 914 yet, so I don't know how expensive these parts are for a type 4, nor what kind of tolerances they're manufactured to.

I did a top-end rebuild of my type 1 (1600dp) in the Ghia, including pistons and cylinders. I balanced the pistons - ie. I ground some of the back-edges off until the pistons all weighed with in .1 gram of eachother. The new pistons shipped and the heaviest was 4.9 grams heavier than the lightest. Factory spec is within 5 grams.

When I got it back together and running, this engine ran like no other type 1 I'd ever driven before. It's strong, and smooth, idles well. This is with only the pistons balanced, I didn't balance the rods, or the crank or the flywheel or anything else. Prior to the rebuild - well, I guess it could have been the valves in the old heads - they were CRAP, but my top speed was about 75 mph. After the rebuild, I was pleased to find that I could get up past 90 and change. (now that I've replaced the transaxle with one that doesn't have as tall a 4th, top speed is in the 80-85 mph range).

On the other hand, Type 1 pistons and cylinders were about $120.

So if Type 4 pistons and cylinders are cheap, and if you're reasonably certain that what you have is not balanced, it may be well worth your while to do this.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 06:34 PM

need4speed... aircooled.net is about the cheapest place I've found for T4 stuff... pistons and cylinder sets cost about $300(for low compression dished ones, the flat tpops are higher, if you can find them)... $500 if you go big bore cast(600 forged)

big difference... even a complete gasket kit costs $250(at Zim's)

T4 parts about about 3-4 times as expensive as T1! I even considered putting a T1 engine in my teener for a while b/c the parts are so much cheaper and you can still get tons of power... just not as reliably
if type 4 parts were as cheap as type 1, this thread wouldn't have even started!


Bleyseng: your test confirms it... it's the valves... every cylinder tested EXACTLY the same with or without a little oil dropped in.

also, the valves seem much worse than before...
before, I tested the engine cold(I'm sure that has *some* effect... but the numbers were a lot lower as a whole...

the new numbers were:
1- 80
2-100

so... the heads will be here in a day or 2... tomorrow I pull the engine... and I'll actually do the change friday...(Eagles in Concert on Thursday)

thanks tons for your help guys...
btw, does anyone that has carbs on their 914 know if the FI intake gaskets will work ok? or where you can get replacement Carb gaskets... I know they are different, but I don't know if they are different enough to matter...
but Aircooled.net seems to think so:(from the website)

"This is the THICK (1/2 cm/1/4") gasket that keeps the heat away from the intake runners on FI engines. Price per EACH.
Don't use these with dual carbs (use the thin ones). Use these for FI applications where your stock ones cracked! These should always be replaced after disassembly (they leak if you don't)"


and they don't have the %$&# thin ones!!!

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 17 2003, 07:38 PM

I would just fix the heads and forget doing the rings. To do a re ring properly is a pain. Cleaning the pistons unless you take them somewhere is no a job for a newbie as you will damage them.
Also, when you take the heads off:
First- pull the rocker assembey off and LABEL THEM as to where they went.
Second-when you pull out the pushrods Label them or I punch holes in a cardboard box with the info on it like- #3 intake #3 exhaust -as the pushrods should go back in the same lifter they came out of.

Lots of people rebuilt 914 engines with the cheap bus parts and wonder where are the preformace went. If you drop in 1.7 bus pistons you get a 67 hp motor not the 80hp motor. There are cheap alternatives out there but you get cheap results.

Geoff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2003, 08:13 PM

Amen brother...

the $300 picton/cyl. kits at aircooled are the dished(bus) pistons... which is why they aren't even an option IMO

I am just going to do the heads... and I feel comfortable doing so...

the rings I wasn't as comfortable b/c I was afraid it would cause the engine to leak, or I would screw up the deck height...

I've cleaned pistons before(Chebbie) and they are a pain... I'll get it all back together and give a full report on how she runs with the heads in better shape...

thanks again for all of the help guys!!!!!!

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 18 2003, 04:05 PM

hey Bleyseng and gang,

speaking for the newbies (include me here), can you give a rundown on the dos and don't of handling/installing pistons and rings? i think 'no job for a newbie' is probably sound advice based on experience but i, for one, would like to build up experience by doing as much as i can myself (and effing up - then learning from the mistake )

Jeff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 18 2003, 09:39 PM

you tell 'em, bro!



ok, I hate to be a wimp... but I worked on getting the engine out... and because of a combination of not having the right equipment and being nervous about trying to put it back in here... I backed out... just until I get down to my parents(via tow)

don't shoot me!!!!!

1st: I live in an apt. with no garage(moving end of next month to a condo with a garage) and they get pissy about that stuff if you can't get it back in 1-2 days.. and as it is, it has to be off through the weekend...

2: my jack doesn't go up high enough I think... the instructions say it needs to go up about 20"... mine was up all the way at about 10"

3: I am afraid that once I got it out... I wouldn't be able to get it back in and there I'd be with a 400 lb. motor that I have to lift into a pickup truck!

I think a lot of it is I'm nervous because it's my first(haven't said that in a long time!!!) engine drop and I'm not sure of what I'm doing...

I got the exhaust off thinking that might give me more space to work with, and it did, but not enough really... I think I need a bigger jack with a wider contact area and higher lift and a level place to pull the engine (my spaces are sloped)

a couple questions though...
1) does the shroud need to be removed before pulling the engine?
2) we also kicked around the idea of loosening the engine, but not the tranny and lowering the engine just enough to pull and replace the heads... will this work ok? the tranny mounts seemed a bit thin to brace that much weight
3) once you drop the engine, do you just pick up the car and move it forward? we did this with a beetle...
4) is it easier to drop the engine and tranny together or leave the tranny in?
5) am I making a big deal out of nothing? is it "nothing" to drop the engine and put it back in? the getting it back in is what bothers me mopre than dropping it... we were about to drop it today... we had the fuel lines pulled and clamped, throttle and starter un hooked about all we had left was the clutch cable and shift linkage... and then we thought "how will we get it back in though?"

I know these are dumb questions... but I don't want to really screw something up... if I screw it up, I don't want it to be just because I didn't ask people who know...
I'm sure you all get tired of newbie questions... but the info out there isn't geared towards newbies so we have to ask.... and sometimes we have to f*c& it up and call it a learning experience...

today was a learning experience.... I learned don't buy a tire jack when you need a full lift installed and I learned I need a house and if you don't feel comfortable doing it...don't!

so, my new, modified plan is tow it to my parents, where my dad has an "A" frame with a wench, 2 tall jacks and the ability to leave the engine out of the car a weekend or more...

or... am I just a fool and need to just drop it and do it and get it over with and worry about putting it in when the time comes?

Posted by: need4speed Jun 19 2003, 08:57 AM

In type 1 land. . .

Getting the engine up, and onto the floor jack, is, IMO, the toughest part of getting the engine back in. That first 4" is the worst. And the T1 engine's only about 200 lbs or so. The second hardest part is deciphering the hastily made labels on the wiring to get everything connected right.

I use a bunch of 4x4's and 2x4's, stack them, use them as levers, to get the engine off the ground high enough to slip in the jack.

You should also use a spare bit of carpet under the engine, so when you get it down, it's easier to slide out.

The beetle/ghia instructions for dropping an engine say; get the car AT LEAST 36" off the ground first. That's not really necessary though, you can remove one rear wheel, and guide the engine out through the wheel well with the car at about 18". Maybe you have to pull the carb and distributor, and sometimes the coil. A 914 may be totally different geometry though. More than anything, it helps to have a helper. If nothing else, to lend moral support.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 19 2003, 09:06 AM

I would use a tow dolly to get it to your parents house. Use the correct size jack to get it out, SAFELY. You don't want the engine falling off on to you.

Geoff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2003, 09:14 AM

2x4 levers are a good idea... in the beetle we could just lift it into place for the most part and when we dropped it we would just pick up the back end of the car and slide it forward...

I was think about taking the carbs and intake manifolds off last night, but you really can't get to the manifolds with the shroud on

I may give it another shot next week, but an A-frame would make life much easier. both for putting it in and pulling it out...

yesterday, I did have help... he helped talk me out of it so much for moral support

Posted by: maf914 Jun 19 2003, 09:30 AM

Remove the carbs and manifolds before dropping the engine. The manifolds can be unbolted at their base with the 3 or 4 bolts (2.0, 1.8, or 1.7?) without removing the engine tin shroud. Removing engine tin with the engine in place must be tough. Wait untill the engine is out.

When you drop the engine and draw it out toward the rear of the car, you will find that the rear vertical engine sheet metal panel will now be the high point. It will probably interfere with the drive shafts. At this point you will probably have to raise the car higher using a combination of floor jacks, jack stands, and blocks to get the height you need. Be careful! Good luck.

Mike

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 19 2003, 09:54 AM

tat2d - i just pulled my engine/tranny following (mostly) the PP tech article. since i have a garage with a level slab and the wife didn't mind getting kicked out, i took it over and took my time. having two jacks (preferably SUV jacks which be tall), two jackstands and the recommended dolly helped immensely. the CV joint 12 point tool is a must.

remember to label things and take ample notes. "installation is the reverse of removal" so don't do anything during removal which can't be reversed without moving heaven and earth.

oh yeah, i strongly urge you to use jacks instead of lifting the body over the engine...

you can do it!

jbb

Posted by: cgnj Jun 19 2003, 10:18 AM

Hi,
Engine drop. I used these directions. I liked it better than the other methods that I have used in the past
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_engine_drop/914_engine_drop.htm.

Gaskets, I use the intake gasket from my FI as a template and cut my own out of Flaps gasket material. Don't know if this will work when I get the new heads.

Take off the engine lid. At the least youll be able to see why you can't pull the manifolds. You should be able to get the manifolds and carbs off as a unit.
Changing the intake gaskets isn't a drop the motor job. Did you disconnect the throttle linkage?

Compression is really uneven and low. Even if this is a temp fix for 1-3K miles I think you need to re-ring. $60 for rings vs doing the job twice.

CGNJ

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2003, 10:24 AM

I'll pick up the dolly this weekend I think and try again next week...

that will definately make the moving around easier... I also plan to get a high lift jack and some cinder blocks for braces...


thanks for the help... also, does having a level ground really help? it seemed like it would, but I just don't have a level place yet.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 19 2003, 10:43 AM

CGNJ, he did a compression check and a recheck after squirting oil into the chambers with any change in the readings. This indiates that the rings are atleast serviceable, any increase would have shown that the rings were worn out.
Re-ringing is a pain to do right.
You must re-locate the pistons in the same cylinders in the same direction.
You must clean the pistons without damaging them and they must be spotless.
You must hone the cylinders breaking the glaze but without over honing increasing the piston to cylinder clearance to beyond spec.
You must correctly set the re gaps in used cylinders.

These is not a job for a newbie, besides this engine only needs to last about 3,000 miles of til next summer. Just do the heads and run it. That's enough work besides pulling and re-installing the motor.

Geoff

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 19 2003, 10:56 AM

tat2d,

cinderblocks are dangerous! they crush at the most inopportune times (like when you have your arm under the car).

jackstands are preferred (i have used a jackstand plus a backup jackstand or hydraulic jack ever since i had a car drop off a jack 15 years ago) but you can get away with wood blocks as long as they are stable (ie base length and width similar to height).

level ground prevents the car from creeping off the supports and allows you to roll the engine out on the dolly without going somewhere you would prefer it didn't.

jbb

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 19 2003, 10:59 AM

Geoff,

thanks for the reply - again, sound advice.

Jeff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2003, 11:11 AM

I'll try to get a ton of scrap wood then... I don't have a choice on the level ground bit here... I have jackstands, but I still don't think they are tall enough... maybe clausterphobia is making everything seem smaller.. too small to get the engine out...

the room I had underneath after removing the exhaust was the distance from the back of my shoulder to my elbow with my arm bent.. 12-14" tops and the jack was almost all of the way up, and the jack stands were good for about 1-2 more notchs safely (2")

was this enough room?

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 19 2003, 11:47 AM

tat2d,

yes and no. that's enough room to get in there and remove all the cables, shifter, etc and then loosen up the mounts. after that, you lower the car/engine until the engine is just over the dolly and release the mounts. at that point, you will not have enough height to lift the car high enough to roll the engine out. i have one SUV jack and one smaller one. for the side where i used the smaller one, i had to alternate between the jack and jackstand to add enough wood blocks to achieve the required elevation.

even with both sides cranked up to what i deemed a safe level, it took some manuvering to get the starter by the halfshaft.

jbb

Posted by: need4speed Jun 19 2003, 07:18 PM

)Me too.

We must have done the same thing.
Tried the regular jack, found out it didn't go high enough, then bought an SUV jack. (found out IT didn't go high enough either. . .

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 20 2003, 10:08 AM

ok, I plan to get the following today...
a hi-lift jack
scrap wood(and maybe cinder blocks)
that 12 pt. star tool(anyone know the exact name/size to get?)
and a bible(now seems like a good time to find religion)

what else do I need?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 20 2003, 10:21 AM

six pack of beer...

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 20 2003, 10:36 AM

If you want to combine alcohol and religion I think wine was the preferred drink in the Bible. I'm not sure you have to go that far. Maybe just a quick prayer and a little nip.

Seriously, this is great to follow as I have to drop my engine in the fall. Any idea how high you have to lift the back of the car. My only experience was dropping the engine out of my old Superbeetle and I remember I had to keep raising it and raising it.

Dave

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 20 2003, 10:40 AM

That's because the SB have the upright fan, so not that high unless you have carbs like Kevin.

Geoff

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jun 20 2003, 10:50 AM

Dave,

my car is a '76 2.0 w/ D-Jet. i'll jack it back up tonight and give you a decent estimate. BTW, the car is light enough, sans drivetrain, for one person to roll up the grade of my driveway. i had thought that wouldn't be possible and was suprised when i gave it a try (needed room one day for a carpentry project).

Jeff

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 20 2003, 10:51 AM

Ya I was kinda hoping that was the the issue but it's still hard to picture. I suppose I'll just have to wait and see. I've got lots of solid wooden blocks I can run in. Might have invest in a new bottle (he, he. Hicup) though.

Dave

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 20 2003, 06:42 PM

holy crap guys... finding one of the 12 pt. star tools is like the search for the holy freakin' grail! I've got it though... along with the furniture dolly, boards, cinderblocks, bricks, and hi-lift tractor jack! tonight we rest for tommorrow we attack!

Posted by: vsg914 Jun 22 2003, 09:20 AM

There is a adequate description of what needs to be done and how to do it, in an article at Pelican by wayne dempsey. I used it two weeks ago and it proved very helpful, since I can't remember exactly what I did the last time (about four years ago). Two floor jacks, two jack stands and two friends are an absolute!

Curt :

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 22 2003, 09:26 AM

When you pull the engine I hope you are pulling out the tranny with it. Its easier to do. Remember to disconnect the tranny ground strap.

Geoff

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 22 2003, 06:22 PM

Victory is mine!! and found some great news under there!

yesterday a fellow BBS'r helped me and a friend drop the engine a tranny... it was a huge success! we pretty much followed the Pelican instructions, with a few modifications...

to my pleasant surprise... the PO did one thing nice for me... I have a side-shifter instead of the stock-for-72 tail shifter!! I do need to replace all of the shift bushings... but this was a great surprise... I had never seen under any other car but mine, so I always assumed that I had the tail-shifter and that was why the shifting was vague(to use a kind word) but it's simply bad bushings all around.

I just wanted to say thanx to everyone on here!!

and thanks to Don for helping me out!