Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Pushrod, lifter, valve, etc. PROBLEM.
Posted by: ripper911 May 9 2016, 06:18 PM
I went to perform a valve adjustment and the exhaust valve on #4 wouldn't tighten. I got frustrated and called in a travelling 914 mechanic.
The screw was binding in the rocker, but he got it tightened enough to try to adjust. It wasn't moving while turning the engine. I was left with instructions to pull the rockers and check the pushrod as it might be bent. I pulled the pushed out, and it looks pretty straight to me, so he said to pull the lifter out with a magnet and inspect it. This is where I'm stuck.
I was having trouble with my extendable magnet extending and collapsing while trying to pull the lifter out. I bought some new magnets, but I'm still not having any luck. The mechanic said that it takes some finessing to get out. Is there a trick to it?
What makes it worse is that I have been using one of my boss's cars in the meantime, but they're selling the business (closing on sale Wednesday) so I need to give the car back.
I'll get the mechanic back over here soon, but going on my knowledge of the car, if the pushrod isn't bent, and if the lifter turns out to be OK, then it won't be something I can fix over the weekend.
Help... 
Posted by: Dave_Darling May 9 2016, 07:57 PM
No trick to it; just get the magnet down to the lifter.
What was keeping the valve from tightening? Did you have the lug screwed all the way into the rocker arm? Did you run out of threads? Was the lug turning without moving inward? Was the jam nut turning on the lug?
Could be the valve tip wearing or the adjusting lug wearing--try removing it and inspecting the end of each for wear. Could be something like the pushrod hanging up on the edge of the lifter cup, or could be a seat dropping. Especially if it's an intake valve.
--DD
Posted by: ripper911 May 9 2016, 08:43 PM
The adjustment screw got buggered up. I'll have a new one, and lock nut, to put it back together with.
It's the forward most valve on the passenger side, exhaust on #4 (I'm pretty sure...).
I can put a magnet into the tube until I hit something, but the lifter isn't coming out. The magnet sticks to something pretty hard, but comes free when I go to pull it out.
Posted by: r_towle May 9 2016, 08:55 PM
They don't come out that easy....sometimes a ridge can form and the only way out is in....
Why are you taking it out?
Get a new rocker arm and screw, put it all back together and get it adjusted.
Make sure the push rod turns in the lifter and adjuster while you set the rocker arms back down....things can get wedged the wrong way.
Every use rod needs to easily turn when the valve is closed.
Posted by: ripper911 May 9 2016, 09:06 PM
I'm supposed to pull the lifter to inspect it for wear on the side that contacts the cam, and send the mechanic a picture of it. He's worried about the cam, but the engine was rebuilt about five or six years ago.
I'm just trying to do as suggested.
I do feel that the inside of the tube isn't exactly round when I stick my finger in it. I suppose that is the ridge you mention.
Posted by: r_towle May 9 2016, 09:52 PM
Put it back together and don't worry about the camshaft.
That motor will outlast the body. 
I,am,not trying to be a jerk, just think about the problem.
IF the camshaft was wearing out, you would have a lot more adjustment in that cylinder.
So pulling the lifter won't help, it's just a time suck.
If the valve seat fell out, or got cockeyed, that would again give you a lot more adjustment.
Maybe, just maybe, the rocker arm was fubar, you needed a new adjuster, and maybe that is it.
Rich
Posted by: Jake Raby May 9 2016, 10:02 PM
The lifter won't slide through the bore, for removal, because its failing. The face of the lifter has become mushroomed due to wear, and has created a burr around the OD thats retaining it.
The reason why the valve adjuster wouldn't reduce the amount of clearance, is also because the lifter is failing. The cam lobe has been injured, too.
What oil have you been running?
Posted by: stugray May 9 2016, 10:10 PM
Just curious:
You are not trying to pull the lifter out through the pushrod tube are you?
You have to pull the pushrod tube out of the case first.
Posted by: rjames May 10 2016, 12:27 AM
Just curious:
You are not trying to pull the lifter out through the pushrod tube are you?
You have to pull the pushrod tube out of the case first.
This was my thought.
Also agree with Rich.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 05:03 AM
Just curious:
You are not trying to pull the lifter out through the pushrod tube are you?
You have to pull the pushrod tube out of the case first.
This was my thought.
Also agree with Rich.
Yep...
I've never done this before, obviously. I'm doing all of this with the car barely lifted onto jackstands, with the engine in place.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 05:11 AM
The lifter won't slide through the bore, for removal, because its failing. The face of the lifter has become mushroomed due to wear, and has created a burr around the OD thats retaining it.
The reason why the valve adjuster wouldn't reduce the amount of clearance, is also because the lifter is failing. The cam lobe has been injured, too.
What oil have you been running?
VR1 20w-50. It does have some leaks, and occasionally gets low, but I only drive it about 10 miles per day.
It started backfiring badly about a week before I started this ordeal, I kept cleaning my jets and adjusting the points to keep it running (the usual suspects) but it was obviously time for some real work.
So... I need to lower the engine and pull the tube to get the lifter out and replace it?
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 05:38 AM
IF the camshaft was wearing out, you would have a lot more adjustment in that cylinder.
If the valve seat fell out, or got cockeyed, that would again give you a lot more adjustment.
Rich
It was very loose. There was probably 1/8" or more of free play between the adjustment screw and the rod.
It's possible that it was just the rocker or screw, but the mechanic who knows 914s supposedly got it tightened up enough and adjusted.
Posted by: The Cabinetmaker May 10 2016, 06:01 AM
Stu said it right. You must pull the pushrod tube to remove the lifter. But I doubt that's your problem. Sounds like a dropped valve seat is keeping the valve open. Have someone turn the engine for you while watching the valve for proper movement.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 06:11 AM
Stu said it right. You must pull the pushrod tube to remove the lifter. But I doubt that's your problem. Sounds like a dropped valve seat is keeping the valve open. Have someone turn the engine for you while watching the valve for proper movement.
He hooked it up to a starter button and showed me that the rocker wasn't even moving while it was turning over, after it was tightened up.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 10 2016, 08:11 AM
IF the camshaft was wearing out, you would have a lot more adjustment in that cylinder.
If the valve seat fell out, or got cockeyed, that would again give you a lot more adjustment.
Rich
It was very loose. There was probably 1/8" or more of free play between the adjustment screw and the rod.
It's possible that it was just the rocker or screw, but the mechanic who knows 914s supposedly got it tightened up enough and adjusted.
With that much clearance, you'll have an underlying condition for sure. Check the sump plate for ferromagnetic debris.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 01:35 PM
So... Let's say that I NEED to have a car running by next week.
What should I do next? Fix the 911 instead? Buy the fake Jaguar that's been sitting for years and hope for the best? Stay with the new owners at my job and beg to use a funeral van?
I'll change the oil and check for ferromagnetic debris.
I had assumed that the valve would be stuck closed, not open, since the rocker isn't pushing it in. Is that wrong? I wouldn't feel as bad just slapping it back together and driving it if it's open, it surely wouldn't cause as much damage in the short term as it would if it wasn't able to release the pressure. Like I mentioned above, I have a short commute.
I get the feeling that I'm going to need to pull the head off. The chances of me getting that done and back together quickly are pretty slim.
Posted by: stugray May 10 2016, 01:40 PM
So... Let's say that I NEED to have a car running by next week.
What should I do next? Fix the 911 instead? Buy the fake Jaguar that's been sitting for years and hope for the best? Stay with the new owners at my job and beg to use a funeral van?
I'll change the oil and check for ferromagnetic debris.
I had assumed that the valve would be stuck closed, not open, since the rocker isn't pushing it in. Is that wrong? I wouldn't feel as bad just slapping it back together and driving it if it's open, it surely wouldn't cause as much damage in the short term as it would if it wasn't able to release the pressure. Like I mentioned above, I have a short commute.
I get the feeling that I'm going to need to pull the head off. The chances of me getting that done and back together quickly are pretty slim.
Is it a 2.0L engine or a 1.7/1.8? (do the intake manifolds have 3 or 4 bolts holding them to the heads?)
If it is a 1.7/1.8L, you can probably find some heads ready to use fairly cheap.
I sold a pair in perfect working order for a couple hundred about a year ago.
If it is a 2.0L then you might need to bust open the piggy bank.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 01:41 PM
So... Let's say that I NEED to have a car running by next week.
What should I do next? Fix the 911 instead? Buy the fake Jaguar that's been sitting for years and hope for the best? Stay with the new owners at my job and beg to use a funeral van?
I'll change the oil and check for ferromagnetic debris.
I had assumed that the valve would be stuck closed, not open, since the rocker isn't pushing it in. Is that wrong? I wouldn't feel as bad just slapping it back together and driving it if it's open, it surely wouldn't cause as much damage in the short term as it would if it wasn't able to release the pressure. Like I mentioned above, I have a short commute.
I get the feeling that I'm going to need to pull the head off. The chances of me getting that done and back together quickly are pretty slim.
Is it a 2.0L engine or a 1.7/1.8? (do the intake manifolds have 3 or 4 bolts holding them to the heads?)
If it is a 1.7/1.8L, you can probably find some heads ready to use fairly cheap.
I sold a pair in perfect working order for a couple hundred about a year ago.
If it is a 2.0L then you might need to bust open the piggy bank.
1.8 (1911 now)
Posted by: r_towle May 10 2016, 01:46 PM
IF the camshaft was wearing out, you would have a lot more adjustment in that cylinder.
If the valve seat fell out, or got cockeyed, that would again give you a lot more adjustment.
Rich
It was very loose. There was probably 1/8" or more of free play between the adjustment screw and the rod.
It's possible that it was just the rocker or screw, but the mechanic who knows 914s supposedly got it tightened up enough and adjusted.
With that much clearance, you'll have an underlying condition for sure. Check the sump plate for ferromagnetic debris.
You gotta tell the whole story up front dude.
New condition of lots of backfiring....that is a huge sign.
Something changed....
Could be a dropped seat.
Maybe scope that cylinder?
Could also pull the exhaust and while shining a light in the spark plug hole check to see if you see any light in the exhaust port....
Rich
Posted by: r_towle May 10 2016, 01:52 PM
Used 1.8 head.
Pull motor, swap head....a weekend project.
Used heads are around...and people willing to help are also able to ship quickly for a teener in need.
Posted by: ripper911 May 10 2016, 02:07 PM
You gotta tell the whole story up front dude.
Rich
Oops, I thought I mentioned that...
I guess I'll look for a used head. I knew I should have held on to my old engine.
Posted by: r_towle May 10 2016, 02:08 PM
You don't know what is wrong....
Might be cheaper, and quicker, to diagnose it, then hunt for parts.
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 10:51 AM
Slight progress, but still rampant frustration.
I pulled the pushrod tube out to get to the lifter better. I can see it now, but still can't get it out with a magnet. I'm assuming that it should come out fairly easily, but I've been trying to coax it out for half an hour now. I guess (like Mr. Raby said) that it might be mushroomed.
Here's a picture of how far I've gotten.
Posted by: stugray May 11 2016, 10:56 AM
Another thing you can check now: Since the rocker arms are off (I assume you removed both sets?)
are the valve stems sticking out from the head the same amount?
If the problem child is now shorter than the "good" one then you are dropping a valve seat and the valve is being held in too far.
If you had a leakdown test kit, you could pressurize that cylinder through the sparkplug hole and see if you hear air escaping from the exhaust.
Posted by: veekry9 May 11 2016, 11:06 AM
Tools in the box,a steel rule and an air adapter.
Smoked the cam lobe,just like Jake deduced.
Pull the block,split it,new cam,lifters,bearings.
While you're in there..New p+c,a valve job.
A look inside with a borescope will remove any doubt of the veracity of the diagnosis.
Shop around for another block to install in it's stead,as it may be enefgee.
/
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 11:13 AM
I should just toss my 911 engine in it.
Posted by: veekry9 May 11 2016, 12:04 PM
Yes you should,then install an LS7 into the 911.
How could it be wrong,if it feels so right?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ls7+911&oq=ls7+911&aqs=chrome..69i57.3847j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=ls7+911&tbm=vid
/
Posted by: Dave_Darling May 11 2016, 04:56 PM
I should just toss my 911 engine in it.
Yeah, because that is a lot easier than fixing a four-cylinder engine....
My advice: Fix your 911 or rent or borrow a car. Because a bad lifter is not something you can fix quickly at home on a gravel driveway after work.
--DD
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 06:19 PM
Luckily I'm getting a deal on a VW kit car that looks like an old jaguar.
I've driven beetles most of my life, so I should be able to get it going pretty soon. I thought about fixing the 911 first, but the kit car has the possibility of being fixed cheaper. I never learned to work on the 911 myself, so that's another reason to do the faguar first.
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 06:23 PM
Yes you should,then install an LS7 into the 911.
How could it be wrong,if it feels so right?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ls7+911&oq=ls7+911&aqs=chrome..69i57.3847j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=ls7+911&tbm=vid
/
Have you seen how the market is going for longhood 911's?
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 06:31 PM
Luckily I'm getting a deal on a VW kit car that looks like an old jaguar.
I've driven beetles most of my life, so I should be able to get it going pretty soon. I thought about fixing the 911 first, but the kit car has the possibility of being fixed cheaper. I never learned to work on the 911 myself, so that's another reason to do the faguar first.
I know. It's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74VFngCn7w
Posted by: veekry9 May 11 2016, 06:33 PM
To the moon,Alice.
A glass SS100,in a mod shade,mauve,so Austin Powers like.
SohCahToa,the mnemonic for tubeframe makers.
Cruella DeVille's ride when dressed in black.
/
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 06:36 PM
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 08:02 PM
I'll fix the 914 eventually, I always do.
:drive:
Posted by: r_towle May 11 2016, 08:08 PM
Looks like you.......might fit the skeleton better.
And, just cause
http://www.joeharmondesign.com/
https://jimsgarage.wordpress.com/2008/04/06...-you-will-like/
http://www.houston-imports.com/forums/show...r&p=9243212
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...engine+for+sale
http://www.northstarperformance.com/sgstuds.php
Posted by: ripper911 May 11 2016, 08:10 PM
Looks like you.......might fit the skeleton better.
And, just cause
http://www.joeharmondesign.com/
https://jimsgarage.wordpress.com/2008/04/06...-you-will-like/
http://www.houston-imports.com/forums/show...r&p=9243212
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...engine+for+sale
http://www.northstarperformance.com/sgstuds.php
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)