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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Q: If using a high torque starter, is hot start relay needed?
Posted by: Jason74914 Jun 2 2016, 10:38 PM
The PO (who also lived in Texas, where it can get very hot) had installed a "homemade" hot start relay setup. It works fine, but there are alot of extra wires and a big wiring loom going across the engine bay. Last thing I need is more clutter in the engine bay!
Question: If I install a quality high torque starter, would it eliminate the need for the hot start relay setup, or not?
Thanks,
Jason
Posted by: Rand Jun 2 2016, 10:53 PM
Controversial subject. I've never used hot start relays because I felt like they were a band-aid for an unhealthy starter circuit. The solenoid is the real relay for the big current. BUT, the long runs and the starter switch can be the most significant reasons to use a relay. If you are in that camp, it has nothing to do with the starter.
Posted by: cuddyk Jun 2 2016, 11:04 PM
It's all about how much juice it takes to engage the solenoid. Installing a high torque starter probably won't eliminate the need for a relay. As Rand mentioned, the long runs and 40+ year old wire introduce a lot of resistance in the circuit. When things are hot, the resistance is greater...which is why the circuit may not carry enough current to trigger the solenoid.
Compared to re-wiring the entire starter circuit, adding a relay is a simple fix. I like the "ford" solution. I paired that with a high torque starter and haven't had a hot start issue since.
Here's a good thread on it..
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=84670
Posted by: Jason74914 Jun 3 2016, 07:09 AM
Thanks Cuddyk.
Wow, that "ford solution" is a MUCH cleaner install than what my PO put together.
I can't tell from the picture, how is that relay mounted to the starter? Just using an existing bolt, or is there a bracket needed.
Also, how is that relay grounded? (Relays need a ground)
Posted by: SLITS Jun 3 2016, 08:26 AM
Thanks Cuddyk.
Wow, that "ford solution" is a MUCH cleaner install than what my PO put together.
I can't tell from the picture, how is that relay mounted to the starter? Just using an existing bolt, or is there a bracket needed.
Also, how is that relay grounded? (Relays need a ground)
Mine is mounted to the underside of the trunk floor above the starter with a 1/4X 20 fastener.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 3 2016, 08:30 AM
Thanks Cuddyk.
Wow, that "ford solution" is a MUCH cleaner install than what my PO put together.
I can't tell from the picture, how is that relay mounted to the starter? Just using an existing bolt, or is there a bracket needed.
Also, how is that relay grounded? (Relays need a ground)
I carefully bend and dremel to size one bracket ear and mount the solenoid on the bottom starter mounting bolt.
I cut no wires, use a 914 (or VW) ground lug for the spade connector. The bracket is the ground.
Posted by: Valy Jun 3 2016, 10:18 AM
A high torque starter will need more power, loading your old wires more than the regular starter.
If you had power distribution problems to the starter, then the high torque starter will make that worse.
Of course, if the problem was the old starter or solenoid that was clogged and burning a lot of power on itself, a new starter will make those wiring issues less obvious and the hot start relay will seem not needed.
I don't agree the hot start relay is a band-aid. It solves the bad wiring issue with a bypass circuit. If you use it for some other issue then it's actually more like a hair growing formula.
Posted by: cuddyk Jun 3 2016, 04:23 PM
I was able to attach the ford relay directly to the starter case, which grounded it as well. Here are some pics...
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