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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ real power goal...

Posted by: mattillac Apr 6 2005, 06:32 PM

all this talk about megasquirt this and 2270 that, i'm getting really sick of my stock 2.0. i've decided to set a realistic goal for myself and strive to reach it. i plan on doing a pretty much stock rebuild with my 2.0 with the following exceptions.

96mm p&c's
more aggressive cam
msefi
some mild porting

that's about it really. nothing fantastic. just rebuilt heads and engine with some minor changes. just wanted to get some opinions on what kind of power this setup might make. i'm keeping my heat exchangers unless i find some cheap ss ones.

now i have to start slowly buying all the parts since i can't afford them all at once.

Posted by: Bleyseng Apr 6 2005, 06:38 PM

Talk to Jake about a better cam with split duration as that will help alot on the exhaust side. That is where all the hp is as the 2.0l head intake flows just fine. Ditch the stock HE's as soon as you can! You should be able to get in the 115-120hp range running a 2056cc motor set up right.

Geoff

Posted by: ArtechnikA Apr 6 2005, 06:52 PM

don't forget that at "some" point, more power needs more cooling, especially if you do track events. serious flogging at a DE can overheat a stock 2,0 - increast the power 50% and it is a recipe for disaster without additional oil cooling.

in street and AX service, you'd probably be fine tho...

Posted by: nebreitling Apr 6 2005, 08:12 PM

i agree that you could do 110+ hp with good compression and a header. up to 125 is possible, i would think.

your HE's are gonna chock things off, though...

Posted by: greg.treadway Apr 6 2005, 08:17 PM

Talk to McLean at AutoAtlanta he has some good suggestions at getting that horsepower with some alternatives to the MS FI.

Posted by: mattillac Apr 6 2005, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (greg.treadway @ Apr 6 2005, 06:17 PM)
Talk to McLean at AutoAtlanta he has some good suggestions at getting that horsepower with some alternatives to the MS FI.

are they expensive alternatives? i know the stock d-jet could maybe handle about 115hp with some tweaking, but i don't know if i have the skill to mess with it.

Posted by: mattillac Apr 6 2005, 09:21 PM

if i could squeeze 120HP out of my 2.0(2.1 ) i would scream ! i'm sure the 20ish HP gain would be excellent!

i hate to hijack my own thread, but...

for those of you running a 2.1 with carbs/cam/fi/whatever,
how much more fun is it to drive your car? or, how much more competitive do you feel with the extra HP?

Posted by: Mueller Apr 6 2005, 09:43 PM

QUOTE (mattillac @ Apr 6 2005, 08:21 PM)
if i could squeeze 120HP out of my 2.0(2.1 ) i would scream ! i'm sure the 20ish HP gain would be excellent!

i hate to hijack my own thread, but...

for those of you running a 2.1 with carbs/cam/fi/whatever,
how much more fun is it to drive your car? or, how much more competitive do you feel with the extra HP?

a bone stock 2.0 that is "fresh" and tuned up properly will be enjoyable to drive...

I thought my 1.8 was boring, then I found out it was tuned up incorrectly and running like crap, I thought it was normal after a proper tune up the car came alive and was enjoyable again.....

you will be happy with a 2.1 as long as you don't expect it to be twice as fast as before and your realistic with the outcome....

Posted by: nebreitling Apr 6 2005, 09:49 PM

ask me in a week. i'm hoping for 125 hp out of my 2056 with header, cam, carbs, hi-comp

Posted by: mattillac Apr 6 2005, 09:49 PM

i'm not expecting a ferrari when i'm done. i just want to gain some extra ponies along with my rebuild. my ultimate goal would be a subaru setup but i need a garage and alot of extra skrilla before that's gonna happen.

Posted by: SLKWrx Apr 7 2005, 09:32 AM

I'm planning the exact same thing.. though here's something to wrap your mind around.

If you're going to change the cam, you have to split the block, if you're going to split the block anyways, why not just upgrade to a 2270 and be done with it? Its a little extra money, but a whole lot more hp.

Once I learned that you have to split the block for the cam, my whole plan fell apart.. I'm trying to plan out my next move.

-- Steve

Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 7 2005, 09:37 AM

QUOTE (SLKWrx @ Apr 7 2005, 10:32 AM)
I'm planning the exact same thing.. though here's something to wrap your mind around.

If you're going to change the cam, you have to split the block, if you're going to split the block anyways, why not just upgrade to a 2270 and be done with it? Its a little extra money, but a whole lot more hp.

Once I learned that you have to split the block for the cam, my whole plan fell apart.. I'm trying to plan out my next move.

-- Steve

isn't it a lot more clearancing too? you have to get the deck height right too... I think there's a lot more planning in a 2270...to do it right...

or am I just over-thinking it again

personally, if I was going to do a 2270, I'd get one of Jakes Kits, take *most* of the guess work out

Posted by: mattillac Apr 7 2005, 10:36 AM

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Apr 7 2005, 07:37 AM)

QUOTE (SLKWrx @ Apr 7 2005, 10:32 AM)
I'm planning the exact same thing.. though here's something to wrap your mind around.

If you're going to change the cam, you have to split the block, if you're going to split the block anyways, why not just upgrade to a 2270 and be done with it? Its a little extra money, but a whole lot more hp.

Once I learned that you have to split the block for the cam, my whole plan fell apart.. I'm trying to plan out my next move.

-- Steve

isn't it a lot more clearancing too? you have to get the deck height right too... I think there's a lot more planning in a 2270...to do it right...

or am I just over-thinking it again

personally, if I was going to do a 2270, I'd get one of Jakes Kits, take *most* of the guess work out

tat2d is right. i'd have to clearance the rods and block and would probably want a DTM and improved oiling system. some heavy breathing heads would go with that too. that's all more money and machine work than i want to deal with. this will be my first time rebuilding this engine, so i want to keep it as straight forward as possible.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 7 2005, 10:45 AM

I don't think DTM is required for the 2270(unless you are putting it in a beetle)

all of the reasons you mentioned is why I would go with a Jake Kit...

even on a 2056 it would be advantageous for a kit, and you'd get more out of your engine(HP, efficientcy, life)... but not *AS* needed... when I do a rebuild(in the future, I have a 1.8 to toy with) I'm going to do my best to use one of Jake's Kits, and his video I'm not big on re-inventing the wheel... these engines are more complex than a SBC or Ford, and much less forgiving... in a lot of ways...

Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 11:04 AM

QUOTE (SLKWrx @ Apr 7 2005, 07:32 AM)
if you're going to split the block anyways, why not just upgrade to a 2270 and be done with it? Its a little extra money, but a whole lot more hp.

Its lots of extra money. Remember, you need a new crank, new rods, headwork to utilize the power, and bigger carbs. $$$

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 7 2005, 11:33 AM

I have a combo that is proven to 120 with stock injection... I sell that cam and etc to create it.

With out this combo I was never able to make more than 110 TRUE Dyno HP....

BTW- The 2270 kit removes ALL guesswork, not most..

With the video that I'm doing soon it will be easier than a stock engine... I'll assemble the kit exacting yours right in front of you step by step.

Posted by: ppickerell Apr 7 2005, 11:41 AM

Mattilac,
My car closely matches what you are describing for specs. HPH will have the car done in a week or two. I will post when it is finished and you are welcome to come to PLeasanton and drive it to see if the HP gain is adequate for you. I have been driving a new C4S for about two weeks and I am worried that the car will underwhelm me in the acceleration department !

Posted by: Bleyseng Apr 7 2005, 01:03 PM

Pat, change out the 3rd gear to a flipped 5th then if you want more scream! The hot 2056 is way fun but starts to dog in 3rd so change the ratio so its more of a close ratio gear box. Then first thru third blasts are way quicker.
Geoff

Posted by: ppickerell Apr 7 2005, 01:09 PM

Geoff,
I will ask HPH whether they did this mod during the tranny rebuild. Thanks for the tip.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 7 2005, 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Apr 7 2005, 12:03 PM)
Pat, change out the 3rd gear to a flipped 5th then if you want more scream! The hot 2056 is way fun but starts to dog in 3rd so change the ratio so its more of a close ratio gear box. Then first thru third blasts are way quicker.
Geoff

so... ultimately your 5th gear got shorter too?

Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 01:21 PM

Aaron, keep 5th gear. You get an extra 5th gear, flip it, and put it where 3rd is.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 7 2005, 01:27 PM

QUOTE (MattR @ Apr 7 2005, 12:21 PM)
Aaron, keep 5th gear. You get an extra 5th gear, flip it, and put it where 3rd is.

ahh... now i see....

sounds like a weekend project

Posted by: Bleyseng Apr 7 2005, 02:59 PM

Yep, Matt has it right. Locate a extra 5th gear complete and install a new syncro then install it where 3rd is on the gear stack.
You could do it in a day....not too hard.

Geoff

Posted by: cha914 Apr 7 2005, 04:03 PM

Matt,

I have a RAT 2056 that puts out 130 crank hp and 130tq on his dyno...its basically the same motor you want to build, slight port on 2.0 heads, split cam, lightened flywheel, 44 webers, and euro race header...

Its a kick, not crazy fast, but will keep up with most...but I can't really give a good comparison as I have never driven a stock 2.0L 914.

I did have to add an front mounted oil cooler to keep the temps down, but now they stay around 180 most the time...

Yours,

Tony

Posted by: Joseph Mills Apr 7 2005, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Apr 7 2005, 01:03 PM)
Pat, change out the 3rd gear to a flipped 5th then if you want more scream! The hot 2056 is way fun but starts to dog in 3rd so change the ratio so its more of a close ratio gear box. Then first thru third blasts are way quicker.
Geoff

Geoff is right.

My 2.0 with Euro P/C's, carbs/Isky cam/valvetrain dyno's at 110 at the rear wheels. And it's WAY more fun than my 1.8 was. It's a blast to drive, but the 3rd gear flip makes it even more fun.

I did the swap for AX, and it's great for it... most of my courses now it's all 3rd gear except for extremly tight turns.

However, I didn't realize how sweet it would be on the street. When you hit 3rd the engine stays right on top of the upper powerband. Makes me smile everytime I shift to 3rd.

However, for track days, I'm sure it won't be so cool. It means you're going to have to downshift into 3rd much later and on the upshift to 4th watch the tach drop like a VW bug.

I can verify that Tony's RAT engine sounds awesome and runs great.

Posted by: mattillac Apr 7 2005, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (cha914 @ Apr 7 2005, 02:03 PM)
Matt,

I have a RAT 2056 that puts out 130 crank hp and 130tq on his dyno...its basically the same motor you want to build, slight port on 2.0 heads, split cam, lightened flywheel, 44 webers, and euro race header...

Its a kick, not crazy fast, but will keep up with most...but I can't really give a good comparison as I have never driven a stock 2.0L 914.

I did have to add an front mounted oil cooler to keep the temps down, but now they stay around 180 most the time...

Yours,

Tony

did you get a kit, or did jake assemble engine?

Posted by: anthony Apr 7 2005, 05:27 PM

McMark gave a few of us rides at the Napa BBQ get-together.

He has this exact combo - 2056, mild cam, Kit Carlsen FI. Compared to my higher mileage all original 2L, it felt like a screamer. He was chirping those Falkens in 2nd gear. The car pulled way harder than mine does. It was actually very inspiring because I have most of the parts to build up a 2nd 2056 engine.

I figure my all original engine is a little tired and probably putting out around 80hp so a fresh 2056 is a 40-50hp increase. I still think a 2270 or 2316 is the ultimate way to go but I figure I could do a 2056 for a lot less and gain some experience.

Posted by: mattillac Apr 7 2005, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (anthony @ Apr 7 2005, 03:27 PM)
McMark gave a few of us rides at the Napa BBQ get-together.

He has this exact combo - 2056, mild cam, Kit Carlsen FI. Compared to my higher mileage all original 2L, it felt like a screamer. He was chirping those Falkens in 2nd gear. The car pulled way harder than mine does. It was actually very inspiring because I have most of the parts to build up a 2nd 2056 engine.

I figure my all original engine is a little tired and probably putting out around 80hp so a fresh 2056 is a 40-50hp increase. I still think a 2270 or 2316 is the ultimate way to go but I figure I could do a 2056 for a lot less and gain some experience.

anthony,

thats what i like to hear. sounds like the 2056 makes the 914 more like a sports car than an econobox with handles

my friends '85 rx7 gsl-se with stock fi pushes about 130HP, so says the factory. that car is a blast to drive! a 914 with the same power output should be a similar ride, i think. i might have to put my 914 on a diet to get closer to the rx7's weight tho.

Posted by: Bleyseng Apr 7 2005, 06:13 PM

like this

Attached image(s)

Posted by: mattillac Apr 7 2005, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Apr 7 2005, 04:13 PM)
like this

so, is it like this:

find extra fifth drive AND driven gear
remove third drive AND driven gear.
install the extra fifth drive AND driven gears "flipped" in place of the third drive and driven gears as illustrated?

gear ratios still elude my intelligence . i need to take apart my tranny

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 7 2005, 06:24 PM

If you want to have seriously fun power just go straight to a 2270.

No loss of longevity, no loss of cooling, no loss of reliability and one hell of a lot faster, smoother and really gets attention. Hi Fi Guy gets 29 MPG with his RAT 2270 and it was my older version from 3 years ago!

You can literally gain 35-40 HP over a 2056 for just 2K difference in price.

30+ HP for 2K is so cheap its amazing..... Some guys pay me 2K for a 10HP gain in a race engine!

Tony's RAT engine is also 3 years old and even the 2056 has come a LONG way in 3 years under this roof!

Hell today I dynoed a 154 HP 1997cc engine!

Posted by: mattillac Apr 7 2005, 06:35 PM

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Apr 7 2005, 04:24 PM)
If you want to have seriously fun power just go straight to a 2270.

No loss of longevity, no loss of cooling, no loss of reliability and one hell of a lot faster, smoother and really gets attention. Hi Fi Guy gets 29 MPG with his RAT 2270 and it was my older version from 3 years ago!

You can literally gain 35-40 HP over a 2056 for just 2K difference in price.

30+ HP for 2K is so cheap its amazing..... Some guys pay me 2K for a 10HP gain in a race engine!

Tony's RAT engine is also 3 years old and even the 2056 has come a LONG way in 3 years under this roof!

Hell today I dynoed a 154 HP 1997cc engine!

trust me jake, i would love to have one of your 2270's. i've stared at the kits on your website for countless hours while at work . but as far as i can tell, the cheapest 2270 kit you have with the options that i want would be around $5K. i can't do that right now.

although, i'm still thinking about just saving up for one of your 2056 kits, since it wouldn't be a whole lot more than me buying the parts a doin the rebuil myself. decisions decisions.

Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 06:38 PM

Posted by: cha914 Apr 7 2005, 06:47 PM

Jake built mine...I had already built one engine that I had problems with and was tired of dealing with engine issues...so after talking to Jake I saved up my pennies and paid him to do it...best money I have spent on the car...

I would suggest at least going with a kit from him, it will take the guess work out and you will have his support, which I can tell you is priceless...

good luck,

Tony

Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 07:07 PM

Yep, Jake helped me a bunch on my combo. I was/am operating on a budget, so having a builder assemble the engine wasnt really feasable. Some day though...

Posted by: mattillac Apr 8 2005, 01:29 PM

i wanna know about the gear combo, pleeeeeeease!

Posted by: phantom914 Apr 8 2005, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Apr 7 2005, 04:13 PM)
like this

Uhh, isn't that 4th gear, not 3rd?

Andrew

Posted by: ArtechnikA Apr 8 2005, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (mattillac @ Apr 8 2005, 02:29 PM)
i wanna know about the gear combo, pleeeeeeease!

QUOTE
so, is it like this:

yes, you have it right.

when we talk about "gears" we are really talking about "gearsets" (drive and driven).

(except for 2nd, which in our cars, 2nd is part of the mainshaft and not as easy to change, and definitely not possible to 'flip.')

go here:
http://members.rennlist.com/chuxter/901&915ratios.htm

it has all the possible ratios, their names, and their tooth counts.

have a look at the current 3rd gear: in a 914.4, that's an 'N' gearset, 1,261:1
look at a 4's 5th: ZD, .7097:1

when you exchange the drive for the driven cogs, you get the inverse of that: 1.409:1

that's a lot shorter than the original 1.261:1

note that in some competition rules, you get charged a LOT of points for non-stock gear ratios... read your rulebook...

Posted by: mattillac Apr 8 2005, 02:51 PM

thanks for the info!