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Posted by: hndyhrr Jun 16 2016, 10:48 AM

Ok, so i will start by saying i am out for the season as far as wrenching on car as i busted my wrist 3 weeks ago. Am going to have to put pumpkin(70, 1.7, fi) in shop to have dizzy changed and figured i would ask about petronix vs points.

please give me your thoughts on this and who to buy from.

thanks

Renee

Posted by: Jason74914 Jun 16 2016, 11:16 AM

Just installed Pertronix Ignitor II. I'm having other issues so couldn't drive it, but made the idle super smooth, plus no longer have to worry about points/condenser/dwell.

Found best price at Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Pertronix-91847V-Ignitor-Volkswagen-Cylinder/dp/B00AWQR8SY/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1466097167&sr=1-6&keywords=pertronix+vw

I've seen some posts about how the magnet didn't go down far enough, and they had to modify the rotor. When I put mine on at first it seemed the magnet donut did not go down far enough on the shaft to match up with the sender. I pushed it down by hand until it seemed snug. However, I lightly tapped down on it (used a socket extension along edges of magnet, and tapped on it gently) and it pushed down further until is was perfectly aligned with sender. FYI, I did not need to use the spacer plate that came with the kit.

This link has some more info on part #'s at post #4.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=287203&hl=

Posted by: colingreene Jun 16 2016, 11:17 AM

i had nothing but problems with pertronix, i went through 3 of them on two different cars.
went back to points its been fine.

Posted by: timothy_nd28 Jun 16 2016, 11:32 AM

With the off chance of driving through a nuclear EMP pulse, I say mechanical points is the way to go

Posted by: StratPlayer Jun 16 2016, 11:35 AM

I have a 123 ignition on it's way... Will let you know how it turns out..

Posted by: era vulgaris Jun 16 2016, 11:38 AM

I'll take electronic ignition over points every day of the week. The MOST important thing to remember about Pertronix units, is DO NOT leave your key in the 'on' position with the engine not running for more than 3 seconds, or you will burn up the Pertronix unit. It's in the Pertronix manual, but I think most people don't RTFM and that's why they have problems with them.

IMO, pertronix is great. Set and forget. I've used them in every previous classic car that I've owned.
If it's in your budget though, a Mallory Unilite is the way to go! I have one on my current car and like it even more than the pertronix.

Posted by: pete000 Jun 16 2016, 11:43 AM

I have Pertronix in my car for a while now with no issues. I did not really notice any improvement in idle or performance. I do like it is maintenance free and the dwell does not need to be adjusted.

I would love to have the 123 digital distributor, but they are big bucks ! Maybe someday.

Posted by: pete000 Jun 16 2016, 11:44 AM

Please post your experience with the 123 distributor when you get it !!!!

Installation, etc...

Posted by: MarkV Jun 16 2016, 11:48 AM

It's 2016 and I refuse to run points. If you go with the Pertronix II it has built in protection for leaving the ignition on. It also has protection built in so that if you accidentally short it out it wont fry.They make a matching low impedence coil that works well and makes for a hotter spark.

Posted by: JoeD Jun 16 2016, 12:16 PM

Been watching that space. Would love to hear how it goes.

Posted by: siverson Jun 16 2016, 12:18 PM

x2 Quite interested to learn about that.

I wonder if I would have been better off going with that:

http://123ignitionusa.com/bt-tune-porsche911-6-r-v-small-porsche-911-6-cylinder-2-0-2-2-l/

instead of:

http://www.partsklassik.com/p-1508-cdi-box-3-pin-refurbished-rpm-7100.aspx

(sounds like you remove the CDI box completely with the 123 system?)

-Steve

Posted by: ssuperflyoldguy Jun 16 2016, 12:59 PM

Switching from points to an electronic ignition is not a question for me. I drove VW up until the middle 90.s - put a pertronix in my bus and never touched in 3 yrs. no begining of driving season tuneup n installing/adjusting points, not a stumble. Ever. Just started right up and went like hell. Well, as much as a carbed 1600 w flowed end castings & nice header would go. People were amazed I drove in fast lane traffic in a bus, a good running bus but hills still slowed me down a bit

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 16 2016, 01:03 PM

I have run pertronix in both 914s since the early 80s. The only problem I have ever had with a pertronix was due to my own stupidity. I hooked the module up backwards and it burned out as soon as I turned the key on. But that one had 150,000 + miles on it.

Points, on the other hand, gave us problems. Hence the reason for going to pertronix. The points would not hold dwell, and would close up just driving down the freeway.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 16 2016, 01:08 PM

I was a diehard points guy till the pertronix II came out. If you are getting a matching coil and mounting it on the engine get the hi-vibration epoxy filled one. The oil filled coil should be mounted upright on the firewall. The 911 guys have had several failures with a oil filled on the engine.
I'd still carry the old points, condenser and mounting screw in my glove box just in case.

One exception is if you run MSD points are really all you need, as they are just a low voltage trigger and should never wear out. Nothing wrong with using MSD and pertronix, just it isn't really necessary.

Posted by: eyesright Jun 16 2016, 02:48 PM

I built my stock 2.0L several years ago and installed new points. I had to keep adjusting them and then realized the cam follower was wearing down to nothing within 1000 miles. So I bought a new set of points, different brand, and headed out on 1100 mile trip to Michigan. In the rain and cold I nursed it the last 100 miles. I had to take the points out - under a bridge - and file the base to get a little more adjustment out of them, still just barely opening. The next day my friends brought me new points from the NAPA store - small town, only parts store - which ran fine all the way home. Then I bought a Pertronix II and coil. No problems. Have points in glove box.

Posted by: 6freak Jun 16 2016, 03:22 PM

I smoked the one I put in the car when I changed engines $120.00 up in smoke..left the key on to long and it burned up or whatever.. ..strait back to points! they wont leave you road side....buddy said just have an extra in the jockey box...F that you ever try and do anything with the dizzy in a 914-6 on the side of the road,its hard enough on flat level ground with good light,let alone in a dark parking lot with little tools...with that said I think the petro gives a cleaner hotter spark with little to no maintanance , just dont leave your key on for any amount of time
MikeC

Posted by: veekry9 Jun 16 2016, 03:39 PM

Gee,sounds like a thermistor could be used to switch the system automatically.

Posted by: Mblizzard Jun 16 2016, 06:32 PM

Running 123 AWESOME!

Posted by: stugray Jun 16 2016, 07:23 PM

I have a mallory unilite with optical pickup to drive my MSD.
The signal from that is a nice clean +12VDC square wave.

My datalogger can read it directly for RPM while trying that with points will get you a fried microprocessor.

Posted by: ThinAir Jun 17 2016, 03:53 PM

I've run Pertronix for years in 4 different Type IVs and swear by them. My only complaint is that after the Pertronix II came out it wasn't immediately available for the Type IV. Because I knew about not leaving the ignition on I never burned a set and the benefits of not adjusting points was worth the inconvenience. Now that I know where to find the Pertronix II for my Type IV, I'll buy one in a heartbeat if my original goes out.

Posted by: Spoke Jun 18 2016, 07:05 AM

Points/condenser ignition is so archaic at this point in the development of the automobile. I'm running Pertronix II on my 914. One time install; adjust timing; never worry about it.

Oh yeah, I have a set of points/condenser in the trunk just in case.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 18 2016, 11:34 AM

Just to be a dick...

If you look at unbiased dyno tests there is no HP difference between points, HEI or crankfire systems.
In fact if anything points may have a slight HP gain, but it's too small to be definitive.

Most tests that I've seen on this so far were on mild performance V8s with a 6500-ish redline.

Posted by: somd914 Jun 18 2016, 12:16 PM

Running Pertronix in both 914s, no issues with 5 years and 15k miles on the oldest unit.

I don't miss points...

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 18 2016, 01:54 PM

That's to be expected. The benefits of an electronic ignition aren't any better power, they are less wear and more consistent operation. Especially in the long term. CDI ignition is good to help igniting very rich mixtures, and to help keep the plugs clean when running rich mixtures.

--DD

Posted by: worn Jun 18 2016, 02:01 PM

I have a Crane unit with optical pickup. Didn't like the sheet metal bracket or plastic chopper wheel so machined them. As some folks know I like to carry a spare dizzy with points loaded and gap set.

Posted by: StratPlayer Jun 18 2016, 07:09 PM

Received my 123 ignition today. I'm heading for lake tahoe Monday morning for a week. Get back on the install when I get back.

Posted by: StratPlayer Jun 27 2016, 12:08 PM

I brought the 123 down to PMB, since I'm having other work done on the car next week they will do the install of the distributor. PMB will do a write up on the install of the distributor..

Posted by: siverson Jun 30 2016, 11:10 PM

> I brought the 123 down to PMB, since I'm having other work done on the car next week they will do the install of the distributor. PMB will do a write up on the install of the distributor..


Looking forward to it...

-Steve

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 1 2016, 02:17 PM

It appears that only one responder likes points. Hmmm . Or as Vulgaris points out, maybe he didn't read the instructions! Anyway +1 on Petronics. Ran them in 3 vehicles w/o a hitch. 9 yr's in one car. I would like to ask those that carry a set of points & condenser if they also carry a timing light & dwell meter to set them with. Didn't think so, except maybe Brandt who carries spare engines with him . It's easier & smarter to carry an extra Petronics unit with ya.

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 1 2016, 02:19 PM

It appears that only one responder likes points. Hmmm . Or as Vulgaris points out, maybe he didn't read the instructions! Anyway +1 on Petronics. Ran them in 3 vehicles w/o a hitch. 9 yr's in one car. I would like to ask those that carry a set of points & condenser if they also carry a timing light & dwell meter on board. Didn't think so, except maybe Brandt who carries everything with him . It's easier & smarter to carry an extra Petronics unit.

Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Jul 1 2016, 02:37 PM

Hi, my name is curt and I'm a pointaholic. I always carry a set along with a condenser. And a dwell meter. I check dwell about once a month. Takes thirty seconds. If it's off, I readjust. Takes about three minutes. As long as dwell is set the same, no need to check timing or carry a light. I'm old, and old school, and damn proud of it. True, points are not as well made as they used to be, but not much is.

Posted by: Garland Jul 1 2016, 02:42 PM

I agree!

Posted by: Darren C Jul 1 2016, 02:53 PM

Hi, my name is Darren and I'm an Alcoholic. At first I thought I was on the wrong forum, then I remembered it was the right forum as it was here that drove me to drink.

Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Jul 1 2016, 03:34 PM

Posted by: Series9 Jul 1 2016, 03:35 PM

Step 1 to reliable ignition: Loose the distributor.

Solid state is where it's at.

Computers don't screw up advance or wear out.


Spend a grand and leave your problems behind.....

Posted by: 914_teener Jul 1 2016, 03:49 PM

So THAT's what happened.

Lesson learned. Don't drink and vote.

I hope you're ok with that Darren...my English speaking cousin from across the Pond.

Posted by: Darren C Jul 1 2016, 03:55 PM

Ich war ein europäisch bis zum vergangenen Freitag!

Posted by: Series9 Jul 1 2016, 04:04 PM

How is your status in the EU relevant?

And why make the statement in German?

Did you vote? How did you vote?

Posted by: Porschef Jul 1 2016, 04:11 PM

I think he said it's Friday, and happy hour...

Posted by: Darren C Jul 1 2016, 04:17 PM

914 teeners talking about our recent EU vote. I don't think any off us know the status right now Joe.
Until Article 50 is exercised the UK break from the EU isn't "formalized" and many negotiations are yet to be made.
The Brexit camp are hailing it a victory and June 24th as our new July 4th. But now they realize what they've got to deal with Boris Johnson (who was a key leader in the campaign to leave and we all thought would take over, has walked away from the mess)
The Remain camp are obviously in turmoil as they make up most of our current Parliament who don't agree with the result of the vote hence our Prime Ministers resignation.
Labour, the opposition are in mutiny and divided. Most want the leader Corbyn out of the leadership, but he won't let go.

It's a right Royal Mess. Those citizens who voted out of the EU that didn't really know what that would mean, now want a re-vote to change their minds.
Scotland wants full independence from UK now so that they can remain in the EU but only just voted to remain in UK before the referendum.

God knows how it'll all sort itself out.

Life goes on day to day and nothing tangible has changed just yet.

My German is just a joke for 914 teener.....me pretending to still be European

Posted by: pacman Jul 1 2016, 07:34 PM

Points! Had Petronix fail on mine and havent had a problem since switching back to points..

Posted by: 914_teener Jul 1 2016, 09:34 PM

I got it Darren.

Chin up...hang in there.

Heading over to EU in August and I.ll be in London for a couple of days.

I have points BTW and have no problems.

I carry a spare set and haven't had an inkling to go with Pertronix yet.

If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Posted by: Darren C Jul 2 2016, 01:15 AM

Thanks 914 teener.

I currently have Petronix, and points in the glovebox. (but don't take that as a definitive)
During my 914 build I tried and tested both with my analytical approach (much like the EFI fueling graph debate on here previously) to see what the differences/advantages were. With the car wired up to various monitoring devices I tested and measured all things.

It's an OCD thing, once I get my teeth into a project I tear it apart to scrutinize in minute detail so I know it better than it knows itself.

I'm not going to start another Merry-go-round debate based on data streams, to show which is best.
Both methods have good and bad.

Go with what you prefer. They both work.

Posted by: JamesM Jul 2 2016, 11:37 PM

All I know is what I have experienced. In almost 20 years and many 914s I have never had a Pertronix (or any magnetic pickup fail) and I have never had a set of points that didnt eventually fail.

Generally i swap every motor I get over to mag pickup as soon as I put it in car as they have always been bullet-proof and maintenance free, in my most recent case I had a recently rebuilt motor with a brand new set of points that was running beautifully so i figured I would leave well enough alone despite already having purchased a hotspark (figured i would try the cheaper option for once) that was just sitting on my shelf. Long story short I dont think I had 1000 miles on the points before I was left stranded. Next time even if the points are running great, im still swapping them out.

Posted by: Frankvw Jul 4 2016, 01:50 AM

I personally never had points fail on me before. This is a pic of points from my friends car. Although they were new and Bosch, they failed within 100 miles.
No spare points, so stranded. Easy fix, but was about the last part to check, never expected it to fail. He is running a new set of points, but his failure and this points made me think about pertronix or similair setups....

Posted by: veekry9 Jul 4 2016, 04:37 AM

The single failure I've had with electronic Hall triggered ignition was a worn insulator.
The 22ga wire had been abraded by the movement of the dizzie's advance plate.
Caused a short to gnd,repaired with a razorblade found on the sidewalk!
'80s,about 45mins to restart,I got lucky,actually feeling the wire,the damage on it's bottom.

/

Posted by: somd914 Jul 4 2016, 05:43 AM

Obtain a large enough population of data and you will see successes and failures with any component. As I mentioned earlier, I've had good luck with Pertronix as have others. I've had some bad luck with points, such as a new set out of the box that had its contacts plated with a non-conductive plating that had to be filed off in order to work... But I also understand others have had issues with Pertronix, and the earlier production units reportedly had more frequent failures.

Perhaps you want to approach the issue as to whether or not you want to adjust points, and how often will you need to it based on how much you drive. For some adjustment is not an issue, but others would rather not mess with it.

Posted by: Porschef Jul 4 2016, 06:10 AM

Just looking at this picture should be enough to understand that points, while a long time in use historically, are just another moving mechanical part that will wear, need adjustment, or eventually fail as demonstrated here. I switched to a Pertronix setup 3 years ago, and will need, at some point, to pull the distributor cap off to change the rotor...

But that's it. And should I have the need to leave the key on for ANY length of time, I simply pull the red lead from the coil.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 4 2016, 06:23 AM

I've had to replace points, but I've also had to replace both a pertronix and a compufire.

Never had a problem with my bug...but then it doesn't even have a distributor.

Posted by: BeatNavy Jul 4 2016, 06:31 AM

Ok, this thread has convinced me to go the Pertronix route soon.

But if I don't have to check the dwell every now and then, I won't get to reference this classic post every time to make sure I'm doing it right: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=74718&view=findpost&p=931289

That's not an issue anymore with the Ignitor II, correct?

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 4 2016, 07:29 AM

Personally I won't use a pertronix on my car, to me it's funny to hear peeps tout something as modern, then put it on a dizzy that is 100+ year old tech.
I realize the d-jet guys don't have a choice.

I would install a megajolt/e, even though it's more money and work. The programmable box is $150 to $215 depending on options and you will need a trigger wheel, sensor and the ford module and coil. If you're thrifty you can get most of those things from a scrapyard.

That said, on my new six will be running a twin plug dizzy (the Patrick unit) that I got for a song.
I believe it has a MSD pickup.

Posted by: cuddyk Jul 4 2016, 07:31 AM

I think pertronix is hedging their bet on that one. When I installed a pII in my mustang 6 years ago, IIRC the instructions said not to leave the ignition on without the engine running for more than 30 seconds. Now, the faq on their website says "can" and "may"..

Q. What happens if you leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not running? A. This can cause your coil to overheat, which may cause permanent damage to the coil and the ignitor.

Regarding the points vs electronic debate, it's like comparing battery powered watches to wind-ups. Both work...it's a matter of personal preference. But the facts are clear. Points have more failure...er...points because there are moving parts and wear combines with manufacturing quality and mechanical adjustment to determine longevity. Electronic auto-adjusts and has fewer failure points, but when they go, they go digitally...as in one minute they work perfectly, the next they're totally dead.

I run the accel unit in my unilite and it works great. About half the price of the pertronix so you can get two and keep a spare in your glove box.

Posted by: colingreene Jul 8 2016, 12:44 AM

You know weirdly I can actually read.
Again with on two seperate cars.
And Ill further elaborate, both failures i had were straight out of the box, both were sent back to the manufacture and tested "good" according to them.
So tell me again how i did not read the instructions.

Posted by: StratPlayer Jul 8 2016, 01:54 PM

I just picked up my car with the new 123 distributor in it and the tangerine racing shift kit installed. The engine is a 2056, org. cylinders bored out to 96mm, Keith Black pistons, Hastings rings. Before the new distributor was installed, the car would hunt at idle, couldn't find any vac. leaks any where. The engine would have a hesitation in it once in a while. Hard to adjust the idle. New distributor installed, no more hunting at idle, no more hesitation what so ever, idle stays exactly where you set it. Great product for the D jet folks that are using a 40 year old distributor. NO trigger points..........

The car was getting very sloppy shifting, that's over.. Car shifts better than new, no more hunting for gears....

I'm very happy with these upgrades, especially the 123 distributor.

Eric Shea from PMB will be doing a write up with pics on the distributor install.

I'm a happy camper.

Posted by: 6freak Jul 12 2016, 10:20 AM

i read the instructions as well and was told .. i tryed not to leave it to long but was a one man band in the shop that day and was back and forth trying to figure some wires and didnt think i left it on over 30 seconds! Maybe off and right back on is not good either? the car did start it just didnt run worth a beans, after turning it off it wouldnt start again, the cars all wired for it so maybe ill try it again just for kicks

Posted by: Drums66 Jul 12 2016, 11:33 AM

.....Play the Lotto!

Posted by: Cuda911 Jul 12 2016, 03:27 PM

Well, I went and had Pertronix installed today.

Warren, I will mail you back the distributor I borrowed in Flagstaff. Thanks again!


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Posted by: 76-914 Jul 12 2016, 03:59 PM

Any noticeable difference in starting or idle?

Posted by: Cuda911 Jul 12 2016, 04:02 PM

Starts the same. Idle is smooth, have set it at about 1,200. So far I've only drive the car about 5 miles since the install.