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Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 09:37 PM

it basically extends the length of the threaded portion on the tie rod end?

femal thread that screws into the tie rod end, and then a threaded portion for the struts pitmann arm?


seems way too simple....for 200 bucks..

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 09:40 PM

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 6 2005, 09:47 PM

Closer to 300 from Smart Racing. At 200 I might think bout buying.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 09:49 PM

ok.. so it replaces the ball joint end with a heim style end.... and then a double female threaded spacer....

hello mr lathe....
heim joints....lathe work....drilling to make a whole for cotterpins.... and some tapping of threads....

300 bucks? bet i could get out for less than 100...

Posted by: Mueller Apr 6 2005, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 6 2005, 08:49 PM)

ok.. so it replaces the ball joint end with a heim style end.... and then a double female threaded spacer.... hello mr lathe.... heim joints....lathe work....drilling to make a whole for cotterpins.... and some tapping of threads.... 300 bucks? bet i could get out for less than 100...

there are some parts that your life (and others) depend on and should not be attempted at unless you understand what and how all the parts are made......

yea $300 is steep, I too thought $200 was the going rate....

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 6 2005, 10:03 PM

It ain't quite that simple, but it ain't quite 300 bucks complicated either.
It race stuff + Porsche stuff....bring money. I'll bend my steering arms instead.

There was a thread on the bird board bout these things breaking.....lotta ...attempts to hush it up.....or so it seemed to me.

Posted by: Andyrew Apr 6 2005, 10:07 PM

Why not do it right and raise/lower (I cant remember...) the spindals?

Thats what was done to my system.. I really like it...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:11 PM

i do understand the 'it holds my life in its hand' concern....

raising spindles is too much work
all it is is turned metal and a heim joint.... not hard. if you use a cotter pin... you wont die....

the heim idea is cool... no play whatsoever...

even if you used just a heimjoint and a LONG bolt and a metal spacer tube... how is that effective?

just thinking out loud....

safety first...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 6 2005, 09:03 PM)

It ain't quite that simple, but it ain't quite 300 bucks complicated either. It race stuff + Porsche stuff....bring money. I'll bend my steering arms instead. There was a thread on the bird board bout these things breaking.....lotta ...attempts to hush it up.....or so it seemed to me.

hush conspiracy? interesting.... anyone die?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 6 2005, 10:18 PM

I thought a bump steer kit was a fancy name for steering rack spacers.

Big ol' washers.

KT

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Apr 6 2005, 09:18 PM)

I thought a bump steer kit was a fancy name for steering rack spacers. Big ol' washers. KT

that helps.... not enuff apparently....

so insteaf of raising the rack to meet the pitman arm.... they keep the rack low and use hi tech spacers from the tie rod end (now a heim joint) to keep the tie rods parallel to the ground (or optimum angle)


look at the pic....

heim joint = no play = crisper steering..... probably no benefit over turbo tie rods though....

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 6 2005, 10:25 PM

Nope, but a guy up at SIR (or whatever they're callin' it these days) got his self a pair of brown skivies

The hole in the pitman arm is tapered. A turbo tie rod end is as good ar the hiem ball ends.

If you raise the spindles you need some way to get the steering arm back to the proper angle.
Joggling the pitman arm down is another option. Ignore this and you may bump steer yourself into a heap of trouble.

Look on the Smart Racing website for a pic of em. $289 IIRC.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:33 PM

a close up...



Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mueller Apr 6 2005, 10:38 PM

i'd like to know what part broke??

it seems that it could only be the bolt or the hiem joint that could fail...

if the tapered fit was too loose, this could have caused a problem since the leverage available at that union is now increased........

things that make you go ummmmmmm

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Apr 6 2005, 09:38 PM)

things that make you go ummmmmmm

ummmmm

what material should they be made out of? steel....high strength steel....
wouldnt it be better to make it out of one through bolt? then it is failsafe....as long as the nut is cotterpinned...

EDIT: they are one bolt....effectively just a lathed spacer, am i right?
as long as the tapers match up, and a castleated nut is used along with a cotterpin, what could happen??
grade 10 bolts....

hmmmmmmm

Posted by: trekkor Apr 6 2005, 10:44 PM

My car is koo-koo low
I have TT rod ends and rack spacers installed.
Competition alignment with lots of neg camber.

I can't even imagine it responding even better

KT

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Apr 6 2005, 09:44 PM)

My car is koo-koo low I have TT rod ends and rack spacers installed. Competition alignment with lots of neg camber. I can't even imagine it responding even better KT

same here... a tad over 3" to the donuts on falkens.....

i get some...bump steer even with rack spacers.... lots of neg camber (AX alignment)

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 6 2005, 10:47 PM

The bolt broke.....long bolt...in shear....go figure.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:49 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 6 2005, 09:47 PM)

The bolt broke.....long bolt...in shear....go figure.

that will do it..... thats a no win situation....

grade 8 or grade 10 bolts?

Posted by: Mueller Apr 6 2005, 10:49 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 6 2005, 09:47 PM)

The bolt broke.....long bolt...in shear....go figure.

and I'm sure he was not running little bitty tires either

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 6 2005, 10:51 PM

yeah.... probably some big ass wheels on that car

its got to be bigger than an M10 bolt/heim joint....

i like thinking outloud....

Posted by: Eddie914 Apr 6 2005, 11:31 PM

It was Craig who drives a 911SC with a 3.6 varioram

He was lucky. It happened at the "infamous" turn 9 which ate quite a few car last year ( I saw two personally).

Here is the link:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191929


Eddie

Posted by: MattR Apr 6 2005, 11:36 PM

Does anyone know the thread on a turbo tie rod?

Posted by: Mueller Apr 6 2005, 11:57 PM

interesting read......

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 7 2005, 02:09 AM

I went back & re-read the thread.
IMO, it's a lousy design.

The bolt is not as stout as the part it replaces and is longer.

The threads extend into one or the other joint (upside down or not). This allows movement in the joint. The standard tie rod bolt is "fitted" into the joint via the taper...no movement. One pic shows the threads were "working" in the joint.....the major dia of the threads are rolled over just below where the nut would be.

There is no castle nut/cotter pin to keep the nut from backing off....unlike any other tie rod nut I've ever seen on any car.

I don't have any idea what went on behind the scenes there, but sumthin' did, me thinks. The whole thing was just left dangling.....like the guy's suspension.

I woudn't put them on if they were free.

Posted by: Brett W Apr 7 2005, 06:26 AM

If the piece were made from one piece of some very strong steel alloy it wouldn't have broken. Perhaps Astralloy or some 4340 you probably wouldn't have any problems. It would need to be case hardened. They probably use a grade 8 bolt. Grade 8s can be to brittle. Grade 5s will bend before they break. WE also don't know what kind of maintenance the owner did either.

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 7 2005, 08:12 AM

other than the bling factor, use on a street car seems like over kill. dot approved? if something went south on the public roads, what's the ins co going to say?

k

Posted by: jd74914 Apr 7 2005, 08:35 AM

do you think the the insurance company would be able to figure that out?

BTW: it looks like the 911 was running some serious rubber, that puts alot of force on those bolts.

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 7 2005, 08:48 AM

if there was a serious injury/death? you bet!! when you tell the state police "i don't know what happened, i just lost my steering", they will give things a look and make the appropriate notation. most trick items come with a disclaimer regarding "racing parts'.

k

Posted by: Jeroen Apr 7 2005, 01:29 PM

I remember a pic posted here by Brad quite some time ago
It showed a strut with a simple second arm welded to it (a little lower) which enabled the longer bumpsteer kit to be mounted in double sheer

Posted by: redshift Apr 7 2005, 01:38 PM

Aaron, watch it... the way you are going, you'll become a complete 914 tech weenie.



Look what it's done to Jeff Bowlsby!




M

Posted by: rdauenhauer Apr 7 2005, 01:59 PM

Eddie, I dont get the skid-mark pic in the post? it was shot reverse direction on the front straight at PR (formally SIR JP ) But the suggestion was that is was turn 9?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Apr 7 2005, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Apr 7 2005, 09:12 AM)

other than the bling factor, use on a street car seems like over kill.

i read that whole long PP thread...

the short version seems to be that plus or minus a bit, it's not appropriate unless you have raised the spindles on the struts.

the other issues in the thread: the bolt had evidently been loose, to some extent, for whatever reason, for a while. since the bolt can be replaced without affecting any alignment settings, i think it'd be prudent to simply develop and stick to a replacement schedule... say -- annually or each front pad replacement, or after hitting anything hard enough to bend a wheel - whichever came first...

an AN or a metric 12,9 fastener might be an upgrade - but as was brought out in the thread - few of us have the luxury of buying hardware like that in small quantities from reliable sources - and the initial engineering on the part indicated the Grade 8 was appropriately strong (i too recall Carroll smith decrying both Grade 8 in suspension and any bolt in single shear...). field failures have evidently been rare, but i'm sure each is memorable...

after reading that whole long thread i'm not as willing as JP to write off the product -- but then i don't need it, either...

Posted by: brant Apr 7 2005, 02:56 PM

just want to clarify Rich's statement about requiring a raised spindle, or not being appropriate to use...

I have cut strut tubes, but effectively this lowers the steering rack in the same way

so that is another appropriate use.

thanks for the summary Rich!

brant