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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ OT: wanna be Machinist ... Where to start?
Posted by: cha914 Apr 7 2005, 03:49 PM
Hey all,
So I would like to get into doing my own machine work, but don't really know where to start. About three years ago I started welding, and now have a pretty decent welding setup (mig, tig, bender, plasma, bandsaw, drill press, grinders, etc...) but as I progress to more and different projects I am finding that being able to do some machining would be real handy, and I get green with envy every time Muller and others start posting their creations...
So, I really want to know where to start...it doesn't seem that the local schools offer a course (would like to find something where I could get some hands on experience). Can you suggest any good intro books and/or websites/forums/etc...
Just from some preliminary reading it seems like a smaller lathe would be a good place to start, or would you suggest different? If I am on the right track, what would you suggest to start looking for? Most of my projects are car related, so I won't need a huge lathe, but something that should be able to handle brake and suspension components. And of course being a 914 guy, it has to be cheap 
Seriously, I would like to spend around 500 to get started, but could probably go to a grand if I found something I couldn't do without. Not really in a rush, so I can look around for those old guys who are selling their hobby stuff, or auction stuff, but don't really know what to look for yet.
Any and all help/advice appreciated, you guys are a great resource...
Tony
Posted by: Joseph Mills Apr 7 2005, 03:59 PM
Hi Tony,
How's the Massive 4 running?
Craig Mitchell (Cametal), is a machinist and could be of help. You met him at MUSR6. He was driving the brown primered 914-6 conversion. He will be on the TALIMENA 1 tour. I will alert him to your ambitions.
I'm sure many on this board will have great support/tips for you.
Let me know when you're ready to make me something cool. 
Posted by: TimT Apr 7 2005, 04:25 PM
I got a lathe about 10 years ago, I happened on a garage sale and the poeple were selling among aother things a really old Craftsman (South Bend or Atlas) metal lathe with all sorts of accesories.. The lathe had been the fathers and had sat unused for many years after his passing.
I bought the whole lot for $100 I think.. came with manuals, how to books etc. So I taught myself the basics
I want to buy a mill now but dont have room for a Bridgeport, so will put this idea on hold..
Ebay is your friend now, they have tons of used lathes/mills etc for sale...and all the documentation and handbooks
go to Ebay and type lathe, or Bridgeport into the search field, and be prepared to wade through dozens of pages....
Posted by: scotty b Apr 7 2005, 05:53 PM
Check with your local tech schools or community colleges. When I went back a few years ago to get my welding certification,I found that part of that was taking the machining classes. We have a guy here locally that buys out tech schools,companies etc old equipment regularly and gets 1500.00 for larger size bridgport mills and lathes. Only problem is they are almost always 3 phase 
You might want to look for someone like that in your local
Posted by: cha914 Apr 7 2005, 06:43 PM
Joseph,
Things are going well, but there is always something left to do...I think it might be CV joint time though...ugh...and those rear bushings again, so ...you know how it goes...
I remember Craig and his 6...I do remember him having some trick parts on there so it doesn't supprise me to hear he is a machinist...I would love to hear what he had to say.
Tim,
I have been shoping ebay a little bit, and found a few deals, but I think shipping would end up being the problem, and I really want to know what I want first...as I really don't even know what the different sizes of lathes really mean and what I should expect from one model over another. I am hoping I can fall into a deal like yours, I just have to start keeping my eye out.
Scotty,
The local community college doesn't offer a machining class, I wish they did, but I havn't checked with all the tech schools yet, and will try there next. I think a coworker goes to those auctions pretty often, so I need to get details from him about how often those happen.
Keep em coming
Tony
Posted by: Verruckt Apr 7 2005, 06:56 PM
I would definitely look into some classes. Lathes and mills are some dangerous machines if you don't know what you're doing.
If it were me, I would get a mill first. You have SOOO much more flexibility with a mill. I don't know how big the parts are you intend to make, but you might check out some of the smaller mills out there. I have seen some for $399 with a decent capacity for home/hobby stuff. At least that way you aren't out the 2grand or so for a decent bridgeport. All of those chinese mini machines are not going to be as good as a bridgeport, but you should still be able to hold within 3 thousandths. Let me know if you have any specific questions, I used to be a tool and die maker before I had my "career change"
Posted by: riverman Apr 7 2005, 09:10 PM
Start out with a mill - you can do alot more. Or, why not jump ahead of the curve and get a CNC? 
Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 09:21 PM
I wouldnt call myself a "machinst" but I know my way around a machine shop. It all started for me by wanting to make stuff. I was 12 years old and I had "ideas". My dad told me to draft them, then I turned, milled, sawed, and drilled. It helped that I have a machine shop in my garage... Now I'm onto CNC. My dad got a table top CNC machine when I was about 16 and Ive been programming since. Now I can use full size with no sweat. Its just a matter of needing stuff to get done, in my opinion. Material is cheap, just get in there and do it!
Posted by: MattR Apr 7 2005, 09:22 PM
| QUOTE (riverman @ Apr 7 2005, 07:10 PM) |
| Start out with a mill - you can do alot more. Or, why not jump ahead of the curve and get a CNC? |
In my opinion you're not jumping ahead of any curve on CNC. You're still operating under the same parameters with a CNC mill or lathe as a manual one, but you have motors to do the precise work. I know a few people in school that have learned CNC just on a computer screen and they couldnt write a full CNC program because they dont know how to use a mill. I know a LITTLE BIT about manual milling and it helps immensly with my CNC.
Posted by: jandro62 Apr 7 2005, 09:30 PM
UT Engineering has a machine shop, but its restricted access - and I think I know a couple of ME's who would be happy to make an extra buck or two machining parts if you need them. Having started machining myself less than a year ago - A mill will get you further. I don't think ACC offers any machining courses, unfortunately.
in addition to the mill itself
good set of end mills (drill bits basically), collets, edge finder, and boring bar will get you going.
Oh, and if you want to be fancy a nice set of digital calipers, although the mechanical ones do just fine.
and a corner of your shop that is easy to sweep up all the metal scraps.
Posted by: scott thacher Apr 7 2005, 09:44 PM
i would beg to differ you can do more with a lathe, you can mill with a lathe, but you cannot turn iwth a mill
to mill with a lathe you put the bit in the chuck, and put a vice on the tail stock or the tool holder/ clamp . but once again you cannot turn with a mill
Posted by: airsix Apr 7 2005, 10:17 PM
The problem with buying machine equipment online is getting it shipped. Case in point - I want a surface grinder. I want one real bad. There are some very decent manual grinders going on ebay for $500-$1,000. Problem is shipping. Most would cost $1,000 to $2,000 to ship. 
If you don't like what you see on ebay take a look at http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/. Good prices and quite a wide selection. If you don't see what you like check back in a week - they have a lot of inventory turnover.
Your best deals will probably be found locally because it will be cheaper to get pieces to your shop. My problem is living in a small community - there are no local sources for used machine equipment, but I bet you've got a lot more resources around a big place like Austin.
I'm not a real machinist - I just play one in my garage. I've got a mini-mill, a 7"x14" lathe, a 2"x72" belt grinder (self made), and a band-saw. Next purchase will be a bench-top surface grinder. At that point I'll have all the essentials I need to do most small-scale stuff. Maybe some day down the road I'll move up to the big equipment once I know what I'm doing.
-Ben M.
Posted by: Verruckt Apr 7 2005, 10:18 PM
| QUOTE (scott thacher @ Apr 7 2005, 09:44 PM) |
| i would beg to differ you can do more with a lathe, you can mill with a lathe, but you cannot turn iwth a mill to mill with a lathe you put the bit in the chuck, and put a vice on the tail stock or the tool holder/ clamp . but once again you cannot turn with a mill |
An experienced person could get quite creative with a lathe yes. But if this person were mostly inexperienced? Not to mention that even for an experienced person, milling on a lathe is a bitch compared to just doing it on a mill. There is a reason god invented round stock
Posted by: airsix Apr 7 2005, 10:27 PM
Oh, I almost forgot...
Go http://metalworking.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html for a copy of the US Army Fundamentals of Machine Tools manual in a series of pdf files. Undoubtably the best FREE reference matterial on the subject.
-Ben M.
Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 7 2005, 10:29 PM
Coming from one that never took a single machining class keep in mind that a lot of what you learn with machining is done with trial and error..
I was lucky enough to have my own lathe at age 14 and mill by 16...
You do need some basic classes or research done on your own to learn the math and etc else it takes years to do it yourself.....
I Built an entire cylinder head on two different mills without a day of formal machine shop teachin......... I goofed up 32 times at last count and thank god I have a Tig and some skills to fix the goofs..
Seriously consider the classes to teach you about the math and different tooling and when to use what cutters and speeds and etc....
Keep in mind that many of these machines work from 3 phase power and most non industrial areas won't have it available, and even if it is I doubt your house / shop will be prewired for it..
If not you can build a 220V phase converter with a large electric motor, some capacitors and etc to create your own 3 phase current..... I have plans from mine it's big enough to run my entire machine shop at once because 3 phase is not available here...
Posted by: Mueller Apr 7 2005, 10:39 PM
I have no formal machine shop training, it's been trial and error....
a good read is:
http://sherline.com/bookplug.htm
There are also monthly mags. dedicated to the home shop guy:
http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/
Lots of newbie projects as well as more difficult projects.
Even thou I have a CNC mill, I like the pleasure of make'n chips with my manual lathe and benchtop mill.
You can even make your own DRO for the mills and lathes if you really get into the hobby.
Posted by: BatFromHell Apr 7 2005, 11:08 PM
Tony:
Sounds like you have a good start and some excellent advice above.
But if you are looking for something that is cost effective and can machine fairly large parts (brake rotors, flywheels and clutches), you may want to look at a Smithy machine. This unit combines a drill press, lathe and milling machine all-in-one for about the cost of a medium priced milling machine. This is an American made product from a company in Ann Arbor, MI. Below is info:
Smithy Co.
170 Aprill Drive P.O. Box 1517
Ann Arbor, MI 48106-1517
USA
Phone: 1-800-476-4849
Mon-Fri 8:00 to 5:00 eastern
www.smithy.com
You can order a catalog on-line.
At minimum you will need a machine with at least 1HP and preferrably runs on 220V. Make sure mill head is R8 to minimize chatter. Do not buy a machine that has a Jacobson chuck (keyed chuck) for the mill head, most import machines will have these.
Another source for excellent machining reference material is
www.engineering.com
Good Luck
BatFromHell
Posted by: PatW Apr 7 2005, 11:10 PM
No mention about the Machinists Handbook?. Its got me in & out of trouble many times over the past few years. It's deep reading can put me to sleep but, the thread sections are valuable. IMHO. And practice, practice, practice. ,
I've been going to school for over a year now and I found it critical to my success in the shop. My .02c.
Pat
Posted by: BatFromHell Apr 7 2005, 11:32 PM
Machinery's Handbook!!!
Forgot about the bible had my 20th edition sitting right in front of me on my desk.
Good call Pat but Tony is a beginner we don't want bore him to death with dry text. He might like some pretty pictures too. Helps with identifying parts of the machine. LOL 
Posted by: bondo Apr 7 2005, 11:52 PM
| QUOTE (scott thacher @ Apr 7 2005, 08:44 PM) |
| i would beg to differ you can do more with a lathe, you can mill with a lathe, but you cannot turn iwth a mill to mill with a lathe you put the bit in the chuck, and put a vice on the tail stock or the tool holder/ clamp . but once again you cannot turn with a mill |
But you CAN turn on a mill (sort of). I had to do it once because the part I was turning was too big to fit in the lathe. I used a big honkin' rotary table, and turned the crank as fast as I could (boy did my arm get tired). Of course it gets real clumsy real fast if you're doing anything fancy (just like milling on a lathe does).
That smithy thing looks pretty darn cool, but it probably has some limitations. I'd bet it's a great compromise if you don't have room for a lathe and a mill though.
Posted by: dmenche914 Apr 8 2005, 12:29 AM
A lathe big enough to do brakes, is not really small, and as a rule of thumb, I try to buy bigger than what is needed now, cause someday a bigger job will come along, so buy as large a lathe as you can. Used equipment can be worn, so before a purchase, get someone that knows what to inspect to go with you, a worn lathe is near worthless, as labor to re-furbish a real worn one is skyhigh, and there are cheap imports from China (with cheap quality often)
A 12 inch swing lathe would be a nice one I have a Clausing engine lathe, sweet full quickchange gear box, running in a transmission, even change while running, couldn't do that on my old lathe with hand changed gears.
At anyrate, 12" fits my VW brake drums just fine.
It was mentioned that "turning " can be done on a mill, actually use of a rotory table is not really turning, however if you mount the part in the spindle, and hold the tool on the table, you can "turn" on a mill.
(done it at a company that had no lathe, only a mill)Likewise, you can mill on a lathe (did that before I bought a mill) It involves buying an attachment or making one. The cutting tool goes in the lathe spindle, and the part on a mounting on an attachment to the cross slide, the attachment has a screw for verticle movement, cross slide gives horizontal, and then your milling on a lathe!
, a lathe is best for turning, and a mill for milling.
What you choose is dependant on what types of parts you figure you need to make.
If you get a lathe, you'll need a good bench grinder to make cutting tools, part of the fun! Generally you purchase end mills, and send them out to be re-sharpened (unless you have a special attachment on the grinder)
Good luck
Posted by: fin Apr 8 2005, 08:40 AM
Due to the weight of big lathes/mills they are sometimes cheaper than the "hobby" sized lathes/mills. If you have the room, it may be the way to go.
What I have is a South Bend 9B with a 42 in. bed and a Atlas mini-mill. The Atlas is too small for V8 work and at it's limit for VW aircooled cases.
I am looking for a rockwell/clausing 85XX knee mill that has a 6 by 24 table. Weighs about 700 pounds and is a favorite of the hobby mill crowd. It has the floor space of a big drill press.
Take the tech school advise and go. money well spent. From there you can network and find the places that sell this type of thing. And you will learn what is a good machine and a bad one.
And buy a used copy of the Machinery Handbook. The older ones have Math tables that the newer ones do not have. And the newer ones have better CNC support. Pick your poison.
Good luck,
Fin
Posted by: cha914 Apr 8 2005, 08:55 AM
Wow...and I thought this thread was going to die off...
Thanks for all the advice above, looks like I have some more reading to do. I have seen the smithy machine before, but I am always leery of those several in one machines...has anyone every used one? How did they hold up?
I do have a fairly nice 1hp bench grinder with a belt sanding attachment, so making cutting tools shouldn't be a problem.
I guess the main thing coming up that has got me thinking about lathes and mills again is that I am starting to build up a dune buggy, and trying to make as much as I can from scratch. And while I can probably make most things with what I have, it would be nice to have a lathe/mill to cut threads and make brackets, adapters, etc, etc....
It seems like I can get a decent 10-12" lathe for in my price range, but haven't seen many mills in that range, a couple of you mentioned a mini mill, what size are you talking and what are they capable of? Oh and I agree with the 1hp motor, seems like thats the begining of the good power range.
Well, I am going to do some reading, and will probably ask a few more questions later today.
Thanks again,
Tony
Posted by: Mueller Apr 8 2005, 09:36 AM
| QUOTE |
| machines...has anyone every used one? How did they hold up? |
I have an Shoptask 3-in-1 which I bought new about 7 years ago, upon getting it I had to take it apart to clean out the sand from the castings. When new, it had very limited Z range (up/down motion), I have since upgraded it to a new more ridged design that allows the head to get closer to the table and move further from it to get out of the way. I also changed it from acme screws to ballscrews and converted it to servo CNC, I can still operate it manually with the handles. I have never seen a Smitty up close and personal...what you can do is check out a few of the forums for hobby type machining and ask if anyone in your area has one that you can check out. Watch out for the forums that are owned by the machine manufacture, they are censored in their favor most of the time.
Posted by: ken914 Apr 8 2005, 09:45 AM
I am a big believer in CNC machining, even have machining technology patents in several different countries. The absolute best thing anyone can have is a good CNC mill! Very cool technology. Between software, education, training and machinery it takes a while and some money to get up to speed.
I grew up with a traditional hand crank mill. No digital read outs, nothing. Just crank and read. If you are careful you can make an amazing array of parts this way, it is how everything was made up until the CNC's got "afordable" enough to be in every commercial shop.
I agree with everyone else's comments about 1) go to a tech school and get some classes, and 2) buy a used mill (like a bridgeport) at some local auction or etc. You can check with your local industrial supply houses and ask if they know of any local companies that may have used surplus equipment.
One other idea is to check out this web site http://www.emachineshop.com/index.html They have a CAD program that you can download and then they will competitively bid your part to find a shop to make items for you. It is A LOT quicker and cheaper to do it this way if you are only doing a few parts. If you want to do it all yourself, then sign up for class!
Good luck and enjoy it!
Ken
Posted by: andys Apr 8 2005, 10:10 AM
Tony,
Be aware that you will likely spend as much for the tools and tooling as for the machine itself. If you go used, you may get a bunch of stuff with it, so keep a keen eye on what a deal actually includes. When you start buying mill vises, collets, collet holders, mill cutters of all kinds and sizes, tool bits, boring bars, boring heads, parallels, 1-2-3 blocks, indicators, mic's, etc, etc, it will add up very quickly. For home shop use, high end machines are not necessary for their expense, but that's your call. If you go new, Kent and Sharp are among the better quality Chinese brands that are really quite good these days. Just don't go too small, as you're apt to find their limits pretty fast when doing car related stuff. At home, I have a Chinese copy Bridgeport, and a 13" LeBlond lathe. Between them, I can do most everything; if not, I've been managing R&D and tool & die shops for 25 years, so I've got connections for all kinds of outside services.
Andy
Posted by: airsix Apr 8 2005, 11:37 AM
Tony,
If you are doing automotive work I don't think you'll be too happy with a mini-mill. It's for doing small stuff. I used mine to make the flanges for my turbo project from 5/8" mild steel plate and I felt I had pushed it to it's limits. I mostly use it for small-scale fabrication (models, my crazy invention ideas, pocketknives like in my blog). For that sort of work it's wonderful. You wouldn't want to try to flycut a head with it though.
-Ben M.
Posted by: URY914 Apr 8 2005, 11:47 AM
There are also some metalworking forums on the net. I have one on my fav's on my home PC. It is set up like 914Club. It is a bunch of old guys swapping lies and helping out newbies.
I'll post it when I get home.
Paul
Posted by: Mueller Apr 8 2005, 12:03 PM
Machining videos/DVDs:
http://www.bay-com.com/browse.cfm?catID=5
http://technicalvideorental.com/
I have rented a few machining videos, sorta slow at times, but some good info.
Rudy is a legend in the home shop machining world
This might be the forum Paul is talking about: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/ubbs/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true
A few other Porsche guys here as well
Posted by: URY914 Apr 8 2005, 09:51 PM
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/
Here ya go.
Have fun!
Paul
Posted by: scott thacher Apr 8 2005, 11:27 PM
if you want to get in to milling very cheaply from homier, they are slightly better than the HF and grizzly from what i have heard from a web site i am a member of.
http://www.homier.com/detail.asp?dpt=1&cat=11&sku=03989
is a mini mill for 200 bucks, i dont know any thing about it but it might be a good thing to break while you learn
http://www.homier.com/detail.asp?dpt=1&cat=11&sku=03988
is the one that a few people i know from another site use. its more money... 800 but they put it on sale every so often for 400. also as some of you know homier does tent sales, where you wont have to pay shipping
Posted by: smooth_eddy Apr 9 2005, 12:15 AM
Hi Tony...
I just wanted to add a few electrical comments. Residential voltage is 120/240 volts single phase. Most industrial lathe applications use a 120/208 volt 3 phase or 480 volt 3 phase power supply. Be sure to check out the power requirements before you purchase anything. Also, look at what is available in your garage/shop electrical panel. Is there room in the panel for more equipment etc. Another point is you can get 3 phase power by using a variable frequency drive (VFD) from a single phase input. So with a residential 240 volt input, you can get an output that will drive your 3 phase equipment. VFD's have really come down in price over the years and may be just what you need if you find a good buy on a three phase lathe. For larger application (like a whole shop) you will need to generate your own 3 phase power. It can not be created with capacitors like I see posted in an earlier post.
If and when you buy and have power issues or questions send me a PM. Good luck, Eddy
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