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Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 04:30 PM

As the owner of an indy VAP shop, I have to say things are not looking good.

I started in VWs with my grandfather's '71 Super Beetle when I was 14. I would enthusiastically tell everyone (for a very long time) that German engineering was the way to go.

Fast forward 33 years. What I say now: "Do NOT buy any VAP built after 1998." Even before 1998, I now realize that drivers of American and Asian cars have generally had a more reliable experience.

My Vanagon is on it's third engine in ten years, my Jetta requires attention at least twice a month, my 914 (before it became the RS) required an engine replacement in the five years I owned it as a /4.......etc, etc.

I'm basically making money on the flaws of German engineering. Yes, it tends to be more precise than the others. BUT, that precision comes at a cost. Small flaws amplify themselves in such a way that the whole system will stop working harmoniously long before other manufacturer's vehicles.

What's my most reliable vehicle/mile/dollar/hour of maintenance? 2006 Ford F250 6.0 Diesel (and that truck has the "unreliable" 6.0).

If someone came to me tonight and said "you have to drive to Washington state and leave right now", I would get right in the Ford and not worry one second about making it there and back.

If I had to take the Vanagon or the Jetta, I would be highly stressed. Both cars are great, but great for within 100 miles.

That's it. I wanted it off my chest.

My VAP specialty will continue at S9, but I may be driving something else.....


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Posted by: r_towle Jul 29 2016, 04:33 PM

Dude,

This is like fight club here.....
never supposed to talk about it.

rich

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 29 2016, 04:49 PM

Here's something else to chew on, Joe. A car's reputation has a lot to do with it's cost. People will talk down their cheaper vehicle in a second where as a guy that spent a load on a car will not be as likely to speak ill of that car. Thereby promoting further sales of a problem car. I speak from experience. It's easy to admit to a hundred dollar mistake but no one wants to talk about their $75K mistake.

Posted by: Valy Jul 29 2016, 04:55 PM

Make sure the German cars you buy were build in Germany and not US/Mexico/Brasil/Spain.
There is a huge difference between the factories in terms of quality.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 05:00 PM

The model of F250 I have is an absolute base model, except for the diesel engine. That truck is $43k new right now.

To me, that's getting pretty close to apples:apples.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 05:02 PM

Weren't all 996s built at Zuffenhausen? If so, your point is void.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 05:08 PM

As far as I'm aware(for the US market), all 4cyl A3/MK3 VWs were built in Mexico and there is a HUGE difference in quality between those cars and the A4/MK4 VWs.

That means VW is the problem, not Mexico.

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 29 2016, 05:15 PM

I sold a 2yo Mercedes and replaced it with a Nissan King Cab. Never felt better.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 29 2016, 05:18 PM

My wife's bare bones Hyundai Accent is what the old Beetle, Rabbit, 1st/2nd gen Golf used to be. A reliable, no frills A to B car.

My buddy owns a VW/Audi independent shop, in confidence he'll tell me they are junk compared to before, but they have made him good coin. He always told me diesel's were a joke, didn't matter how good milage you got, you would never recoup the buy in cost.
He also said the 80's diesel engines were excellent, too good in fact. In the 90's the reliability all went to shit and he believes it was on purpose.

BTW Joe he too drives a Pickup truck.


Personally my '99 Passat which, was a basically Audi A4, is the last new VW I'll ever own.
I lost count of how many times I replaced the front suspension.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 05:28 PM

Don't stab me with a squirrel, but a Passat is a B4. Same, same. Just parallel chassis. The "4" is the era.

Posted by: Dion Jul 29 2016, 05:36 PM

Agree somewhat. I still own my '92 Mexican built Golf GTi. Fun little gas sipper.
Many autocrosses under its belt. Regular maintenance always key. Not deferred.
However my brand new '02 Audi A6 Avant kept eating catalytic converters.
Forward to 2009 the motor blows white smoke out the back with my wife at the wheel.
Car never abused. Turns out cracked block. It was dumping coolant out the exhaust
most of the time. Hence short lived catalysts. Audi dealer offered no help, mind you car
just turned 52,000 miles. Audi North America also turned a blind eye. First question
from them? "Didn't you buy the extended warranty?" Well didn't think I had too
since you built kickass LeMans cars! That's what made me purchase a Audi in the first place. I won't be buying any Audi anytime soon. Shame as I like their looks but
Dealerships personnel need help.

Posted by: 914_teener Jul 29 2016, 05:41 PM

I still have my 94 GMC C1500 extended cab truck.

It is by far the least expensive vechicle to operate in terms of cost of part..operation...ect.

It has it's problems with plastic and all.... but the TBI 5.7 is great.

I can't afford to replace it at 45+k.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 29 2016, 05:43 PM

The 85' Jetta my wife owned, from new, when I met her was a fantastic car. Not made south of the border. When it went away, over 250k, it had been near flawless. Org engine, transmission, even the clutch. Wear items and it barely used the equivalent of a 1/2 qt of oil between changes. My ex bought a 'south of the border' golf and it was literally falling apart within 2 years.

They have to design them to fail so the service $ rolls in. Just like appliances.

Posted by: 396 Jul 29 2016, 05:46 PM

This brings up a sore subject with me. As for a DD I've always bought Hondas, but my last experience with Honda's quality went too. My brand new Civic's steering wheel was 1/4 off center. I only had 50 miles on the car. The dealer jump in and says, we will correct it. Needless to say, as I drove out, the steering wheel was still off. When I asked about it, they said it's with in spec , even if its 1/4 inch off center. I called Hondo Corp, their reply was Dealer is correct. ... over the years, I've bought 6 Hondas...so what am I saying, most of the automobile industry has gone down hill! On another note, my Audi S/4 needed a timing chain...local dealer quoted my 18k( its not a 993 rebuild)...for the job like new water pump, r&r all 4 shocks, install the 8 spark plugs that I will supply tooo! My Porsche is simply a hobby. If I had to depend on it as a DD, ....I don't think I will opt for a new one as one will have to also have a computer to diagnosed any errors that pop up now....oh well, it's just a hobby

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 06:19 PM

I'm thinking about putting a sign on the back of my truck that says: "If you have a VW, Audi or Porsche made before 1998, bring it to me. If you have a later one, sell it NOW, or I can help you part it out later."



Look on your local Craigslist for American diesel trucks. Look at how many of them have over 350,000 miles. Then, do the same search for VAP cars with 350,000 miles.

What do you find?

The answer is several American diesels in every search and absolutely ZERO German cars.



I have a current Beetle TDI customer who's last mechanic told her "this engine will long outlast the whole of the rest of the car". When she asked me if I thought that comment was correct, I said "100%".

Posted by: GeorgeRud Jul 29 2016, 06:37 PM

A longtime friend of mine that owns a respected repair shop said it best - The best part of the new Porsches is the test drive!

I love the looks and engineering, but wouldn't want one that's out of warrantee and won't spend the money for a new one. However, I'd be more than happy to trust my 1970 914-6 for a cross country drive, even after all these years.

Posted by: Racer Jul 29 2016, 06:50 PM

Sorry to hear about the issues. Since we are all sharing:

1988 Golf GT. From 1989-1996. Ran for 130,000 miles. Exhaust every 2 years (like clockwork).. New Transmission at 50K miles.. then electrical gremlins at the end.

1996 GTI VR6. From 1996-2003.Also ran for 130,000 miles. Very few items failed. At 130K miles, the original clutch was starting to wear, I needed coil packs and all 4 corners needed brakes. Rather than fix up, bailed out and tried out a WRX instead.

2005.5 - present. VW Jetta. 191K miles. Original clutch. Original exhaust. Most reliable car I've ever had. A few warranty issues. Rear brakes every 80K miles (fronts are original); Although I think this generation Jetta (Mark V) was a bit overbuilt compared to the next generations.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 29 2016, 07:10 PM

There is a damn good reason why I sold my 02 Audi allroad and bought a Fiesta ST as a daily...

The ONLY way I sold it to my wife was to show her that over the cars warranty it will be cheaper than the allroad... By a pretty decent amount. She went for it and I love it almost as much as her Hyundai genesis coupe as a commuter (As a back road car the fiesta is hard to beat)..

Posted by: snakemain Jul 29 2016, 07:55 PM

E46 M3 with no problems for several years. Brand new 08 BMW 335, started giving recurring problems at 20K miles. Dealer kept saying the shuddering and shaking was in spec and caused by ethanol gas. Ditched it still under warranty and got an X5. Couple years later started having terrible electrical problems that they couldn't fix. Ditched it for an enormous lifted F-150 twin turbo V6 that gave me 2 trouble-free years of 12.5 mpg, then traded that for a Macan S when they came out. 2 years and 30K miles later and still love it. Crossing my fingers.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 08:12 PM

You are an absolute exception to the rule. I'm happy for you, but your experience is not at all common on an A5.

Posted by: colingreene Jul 29 2016, 08:27 PM

I daily drive a 88 bmw 325ix, its never given me any problems other than the ones the previous owner caused.
And the 30 year old fuel pump died.
Other than that. Still runs perfect with over 200k on its weird all wheel drive system.
Built in Munich

Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2016, 08:30 PM

I'll tell you right now, I occasionally have BMWs show up looking for service.

When I work on them, it's very obvious that they are higher quality than both Porsche and Mercedes.

Posted by: somd914 Jul 29 2016, 08:51 PM

I think you will find with any modern performance vehicle bleeding edge technology, and the general reliance on expensive technology are their pitfalls no matter the country of origin.

But even run-of-the-mill daily cars are becoming bloated with tech. The mechanicals may be less sophisticated and more reliable than performance cars, but in the end the electronics will kill you on repairs - ABS, traction control, stability control, automatic braking, dynamic cruise control, electronic throttle bodies, computer-driven transmissions, multifunction displays, unintended lane change monitoring, tire pressure monitors, electronically tuned suspension systems, proximity keys, and the list goes on and on.

Oh, just replaced a taillight on my wife's '04 330ci. Sure, LEDs are state of the art, last longer, consume less power, etc, but the circuit board failed, $250 for a new light assembly - I could buy a lot of incandescent light bulbs for that price!

I was running around in a friend's new Macan GTS the other day. Awesome SUV, but $75k, all I could see where monster maintenance costs down the road, and in four years it might be worth $40k.

I'll stick to my classics toys...

Posted by: matthepcat Jul 29 2016, 08:59 PM

I really like the new BMW M2...but dont think it would be worth the maintenance. My 06 Subaru WRX has been flawless for 130k heavy handed miles.

Our Audi Q5 3.0T has been a great car so far....but who knows what the future holds.

Posted by: Pacqs Jul 29 2016, 10:29 PM

Yea i feel sometimes that 98-2016 cars are way too much computer and not reliable for the long run
But theres a few cases when is not correct. my dad owns 2 mercedes (both ml320)
one from 98 and the other of 2001,those damn things are already at 200k or near it and so far the most mayor fail was a transmission rebuild on one of those and that was when it was at around 190k
on the other side of the spectrum we had a vw jetta from the 98 and that darn thing spend most of the time at the shop than on the road, my dad got tired of it and send it to the junkyard
Still whatever happens on the road of the middle of the nowhere i think its easier to fix a 60-88 car that you can fix with some hillibilly shit
than a 2001-2016 car if its breaks down you are toast unless you got a code reader and know how to fix this modern alien ships

But even so its hit and miss on most of the cars today
a lot of people my age are like DUDE i want a new bmw or whatever
meanwhile im happy with a car that is almost twice my age :L
i swear i get into a car that is 2011-2016 and im like "TOO MUCH DAMN BUTTONS!!!"

Posted by: r_towle Jul 29 2016, 11:15 PM

How many 70's and 80,s American cars are still in service???

Posted by: SixerJ Jul 30 2016, 12:56 AM

100 percent agree and have Audis as daily rides for a long time, build quality is not what it was

Currently have a 2007 A6 Allroad (115k miles), failure list beside the regular service parts that are expected to wear

Rear wash wipe pipe failure at the hinge (I have the absolute best repair method and is how it should have been engineered in the 1st place - PM for details)
Toasted Bose amp due to leak (had it repaired)
Corroded and minor leak on rear wiper box - replaced at the same time as the pipe
New throttle body
New intake swirl valves (both banks)
Intermittent fault on 3rd break light - had to drill / break out the original light & then file the bottom of the new one to make it clear the rear screen which is clearly fitted after the light
Drivers door is starting to drop due to wear in the top hinge

Before the current car I had a 1996 S6 avant, that had a failed exhaust sensor and one coil pack.......car died at 220k after a hose split and it cooked the head

Posted by: jcd914 Jul 30 2016, 02:23 AM

20 years working on VW, Audi & Porsche and I have seen plenty of "German Engineering" gone wrong.
It usually looks like good design that was cheaply implemented.

I have a 1996 Audi A6 quattro sedan with an auto trans, that has been one of the most reliable cars I've owned.
It is currently my son's DD with 290K miles and has required little more than brakes and maintenace.
Had to replace the radiator fans and the climate control head, both of which I got at pick and pull.
The leather seats are slpit and torn and the paint is faded but it starts and drives evertime.

I have a 2008 Ford F-150 with 160k miles that like my A6 has been almost trouble free but it currently has a transmission leak and the shifting is a little odd sometimes. I'll be taking it in to get looked at as soon as the S4 is back together.

I have a 1993 Audi S4 with 240K miles on it and it has been a bit more trouble some but not bad overall.
Radiator fan failed and took out my radiator, coil packs failed,Bose amps squeal periodically.
It chews up tires because it is big and fast and I like to push it.
I just last week put new seals and bushings in the turbo and don't have it running yet..

I have a 2001 VW Beetle (daughter's car) that up til recently has been trouble free. I guess my brother had fixed all the broblems before I bought it from him. Last christmas the water pump failed and my daughter lives in Long Beach so I had to pay to have it fixed. With all the added on require extra "when we do these cars we always replace these other crappy plastic parts that will fail right after you leave our shop" it was almost $1500. Since then I have had t have the brakes replaced and a fuse/relay panel that sits on the battery in the engine compartment.

I have only bought 1 new car in my life and time will tell if that was a mistake or not.
Two years ago we bought a new 2014 VW Jetta TDI and with 30K miles it has been perfect sp far.
I did buy an extended warranty and extended maintenace, so 4 years I don't have to touch it.
My wife loves the car, so I don't think I will convince her to sell it back to VW but I'll get $6K from VW for cheating on smog and getting caught.


Jim

Posted by: porschetub Jul 30 2016, 04:26 AM

That's rubbish who told you that ?,Brasil and Mexico have been manufacturing since God knows when,all the drivetrains were made for early VW Golfs and others models and shipped back to Germany for final assembly with the bodies.
Brasil was a major player in crankshaft and piston supply to VAG for decades.
Tell me otherwise and I will believe you.

Posted by: sixaddict Jul 30 2016, 04:43 AM

If you have watched Porsche evolve over the over the years , they have always started a new model then corrected its deficiencies in the following years. The best/worst example of this is the 924/944 series. Best thing that ever happened to me is never owning one.
Many years ago the owner of my favorite shop was checking out a woman who literally had to sit down when he told her how much her tab was----later told me
"the 944 is the mechanics friend" ! We are chumps sometimes

Posted by: 914forme Jul 30 2016, 05:05 AM

I have a fleet of VWs 2007 and newer. And two are TDIs to are TSI, I have run TDIs to 300,000+ miles ,sold them, and still see them on the streets. These where highly modified cars. I hd one 1999 A4 Jetta that was a Pos, the electricals became an issue. Security module would shut the car down while you where in it.

That was the worse one. I will say I really dislike the Tiptronic trans in my 2005 so much I swapped it to a stick. I have since sold that car.

They can be fine cars if feed correctly. My Chevy truck on the other hand. 2 fuel pumps, replacement fuel lines, when stainless steel. Rusting to death, rebuild auto at 200,000 miles. Engine is putting out maybe 175HP, maybe. And it has cancer bad. I keep telling myself it is 13 years old, it is a farm truck, it gets abused all day everyday. Then I go out and look at new ones, and think, yeah right, I'll rebuild this one a few times.

Oh I forgot the big one, all the brake lines rusted out. I was hauling a load, hit the pedal and it went super soft and to the floor. Luckily the trailer had brakes, and it hauled us down. Turned around drove home and found the issue, replacing the brake lines was a _________.

It now needs a new water pump, could use and engine rebuild, it is getting old, trans is still not making me happy, I should have rebuilt it myself, electric door locks don't work, dash flips languages as you drive. Tow haul mode does not work 100% of the time.

To each there own i guess.

Al industries have issues, I use Apple Computers, I make a living because, Microsoft, Cisco, HP/ Aruba, and Palo Alto etc..... I have not had a single issue with my Apple laptops. I know others who have, not a fan boy, but I am a fan as it works 100% of the time. For me!

Same thing with tools some people have to have Snap-On, I own one ratchet because my father-in-law made the casting for the handle. It is a nice ratchet. Currently I have all Cobalt micro turn ratchets, almost as nice, but 1/4 the cost. BTW, I have another version of the Snap-On ratchet that was sold by another company, no red handle, no snap-on name, but 1/3rd the cost and just as nice. It came out of the same plant, just different plastic color , and a mold with out snap-on on the inside.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jul 30 2016, 07:00 AM

The E30 and E36 are damn-near bulletproof.

Miatas are bulletproof, I'm convinced. Mine is a 91, and I just had my first issue on Friday. Had a small rust pinhole leak in a water pipe which caused it to overheat. By the time I realized it, the gauge was pegged. Stopped, threw some water in it along with a split piece of rubber and a hose clamp and it started right up and drove the 45 minutes home no problem. Welded it back up, put in some antifreeze and I expect to go another 50k miles without touching a damn thing, other than maybe the convertible top. I bought the car for $200 and have less than $200 into it, nearly 5 years later. That's why you never see shops that specialize in Miatas - they never need work.

I agree with you Joe. VAP products are over-engineered in many ways, to the point where they forgot the relatively simple stuff in recent years. More business for you, but a pain in the ass for the owner and a horrible ROI for the owner that spent good money for a good product. As you said, the 6.0 "problem child" diesel in the F-250 at least doesn't have freaking D-chunks coming out of the sides of the cylinder walls or terminal IMS bearing issues.

Posted by: Reverend Troublemaker Jul 30 2016, 07:08 AM

Sorry, you opened the door.... and I can't pass up this opportunity. My teener has a GM Powerplant for a reason and it ain't about dinnero's - through the first four full weekends on track without a breakdown - at speed! Seriously, I hear you and you're right on the money! Sadly.

PS: Congratulations on a solid (future) business plan...

Tony

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 30 2016, 07:38 AM

Screw that, that buddy with the independent shop is at least a millionaire because of later VW's. In fact he won't work on aircooled, he sends that work all to me.
Come in at close to half the dealer labour rate, get a good rep and customers will flock to your shop. He has 4 guys working for him and his wife runs the parts department, they are freakishly busy. He steals at least 3/4 of the local dealers service and parts business. Bad enough that VW has tried to hassle him and the dealer offered to buy him out.
He can do a timing belt in just over two hours, but he still charges book rate like the dealer, just his labour rate and parts is way cheaper. He figures out all the sneaks to get the job done faster.

Guy sinks all his extra cash into houses, mostly triplexes, that's his retirement plan. He calls his customers and tenants his good little robots.

Posted by: 76-914 Jul 30 2016, 07:50 AM

I want to see a pic of that pickup.


The problem with poorly engineered products is they spend more on advertising than the mechanic and there are those that will believe the problem is with the tech not the vehicle. Example: SoCal has the toughest restrictions on water heaters in the US, period. As a result the water heaters here are very different from most others and have a high failure rate; to wit, pilot outages. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard, "I never had a problem with my old water heater". The assumption being that I don't know shit from apple butter. And, I'll bet you've run into a similar situation Joe.

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 3 2016, 02:33 PM

Hey Joe,

I would tend to agree with you, but I have a different perspective as a long term owner, "keeper" & DDer of very few cars - 5 in total since 1969 (not including my parents' cars, nor the Honda in my Sig which was for our 2 kids). I can say that there are differences between even the earlier cars from Germany as well.

BTW Joe - is your Vanagon one of the early & leaky 1.9 WBXs??

#1 - `68 Opel Kadette B 2dr Base Notchback Coupe, 1.1L I-4 w/ 4spd - 9/69 - 6/71, +/- 40K - 68K miles by me, good 20's mpg, but the smog control air injection made it run too hot & the head & exhaust manifold cracked & blew the engine.

#2 - `69 Pontiac Ventura 4dr Hardtop (125" WB), 400ci 2bbl AT - 8/71 - 3/76, +/- 45K - 137K, sucky 7-10 mpg during college & the 73 Oil Crisis when gas went from $0.25 - $1+ in a week, 10 gal max. every other day (even odd by last Lic. plate #), so looked for better mpg sports car after college, when it started needing major work.

> these were the last ones which I could do virtually anything on as pre-computer cars, while the 914 on required $20K+/- analyzers for the ECUs etc.

#3 - `73 914-2.0 "914S" - 2nd owner 12/75-now, was DD 75-85 @ +/- 45K-172K - currently under slooow resto, prior rolling resto & full mechanical rebuild at about 120-127K in 80-83, then whacked by a ditzy gal in a pkg structure 6/85 during grad school,
then stored in my garage since then - so it's my own person "Barn Re-Find"!

#4 - `85 BMW E30 325e 2.7L I-6 w/5spd & AC - OO 5/85-now, curr. DD @ almost 200k - orig. motor runs good, trans rebuilt `04 +/-135K, repaint `05-06 & reupholstered front `14, replacing some 30 year old suspension components last few years, converted to R135 when OE compressor died in `98, recent reman AC compressor - not a bad car at all & 20s-30s with 42 mpg fwy possible from it's "eta 6"!

#5 - `88 VW Vanagon Westfalia 2.1L WBX-4 w/ AT & AC - OO 4/88-now, curr. DD @ almost 230K (more use for long XC trips every year `88-02, then flying was cheaper with miles for kids/wife), threw rod & new rebuilt motor at about 120K in `99, top end `05 due to cracked ring (not yet coolant leak then), AT rebuilt `07, suspension & other running gear rebuilt with rolling resto/repaint/refurb 2012-13. If/when it needs a new/rebuilt motor (again), then I'll get a "built" GoWesty 2.45+ with their 48mo/48K full warranty, & let them pay for anything that goes wrong!

Before & not counting the Westy's resto - around `02, I did a comparison, & the Westy was 4x the maintenance cost of the 325e, & 2-3x that of the 914 during it's DD days (even adjusted for inflation) - so VW had pretty bad QC even back then - as you noted about your Vano!

Also, the VW dealer denied all 24 months under warranty that there was no problem with the suspension leaning to the left (where the full camper equipement sits, but when we redid the springs/shocks in `12, my mechanic found that they factory had used the improper passenger van springs - instead of the proper HD Westy ones - & now the lean is gone! Lying POSs!

The BMW E30 is a solid car with excellent QC - even if their parts are/were more. The bigger issue now for me & my mechanic on both/all, is finding OEM parts (ergo the reman AC compressor).

However, contrary to that VW quality issue - as both now being classic cars, the Westy is worth probably $50K+ as restored now, whereas the excellent 325e is under $10K - so rarity plays a bigger part than quality & driveability! I hope that the BMW comes up in value, so I'll feel better about eventually restoring it too.

So now my dilemma is that we're looking for a used late model mid-sized V8 SUV to tow our vintage Avion trailer (like Airstream) & be our "extra 3rd car" - & we really like the `08-14 Cayenne S V8 (w/out air susp.), but my 914 expert Austrian born & trained & factory trained VPA + now also B/M/T-L/N-I/S/etc. mechanic of 41 years says that the Toyota/Lexus V8 4Runner/GX/LX/GlandBruiser will cost me 1/2 in both parts & labor to maintain! .... but the wife & I prefer the ride & handling of the CayS.

Before the F150/Expedition & Tundra/Sequoyah & other full size pick-up/SUV fans crowd jump in here with advice - my wife won't drive the big-uns, & we have a very tight driveway & can't even open the door more than 1/3 when I'm hitching there + the streets are narrow, so we really do need to stick with mid-size, & the Toyota & P+A ones seem best for our "mission statement."

We had rented 4.0L V6 Nissan Pathfinders for a year, which were okay but had to rev too high on hills/grades & drove us crazy on long trips - so V8 is our choice (some new turbo V6's may have enough HP/TQ low end, but I don't want to pay higher new car prices). Also, Nissan's DA std. towing package is a 4-pin so you cannot run trailer brakes (required over 1500# trailer in CA), & they charge you double to switch to a 7-pin! Ids!!

We've been renting F250s & RAM 2500s since then in both gas & diesel (waaaay overkill for our little 20' 3000-3500# Avion T20 BTW), & they get 17 mpg avg with or without the trailer, have 7-pin, but are a royal PITA to maneuver into our narrow driveway & on our narrow streets - to the extent that I must get the neighbors across the street to move their cars just to get the behemoth 25-27' L long bed crew cab F250 - so + trailer & Hensley hitch it's +/- 50' L & with a big turning radius!

Also FYI, my mechanic says to stay away from the Nissans in general - including the Pathfinder V8, as well as emphatically saying that the BMW X5 is a POS!

Another issue he noted, is that apparently all of the German/Euro cars/etc. are now required to use a bio-based & degradable wiring insulation which is just "Rodent Candy"! He had a 2 year old BMW X5 in the shop that the rodents got to, & the owner's insurance company totaled it for less than what they owed, due to mice getting in there & feasting everywhere - cuz the harness replacement P+L was more that the threshold insurance value to total it!

BTW - someone here has a daughter in Long Beach - so just send her to Hans Imports in Huntington Beach, & you can talk to Hans Sr. mechanic to mechanic on what you need done. Tell her to say I referred you.

PS - The other problem with the new full size trucks & SUVs since about `06, is they've jacked them up so high that they're a PITA to climb up into, a PITA to load lumber/plywood/block/etc. into a bed that's above my friggin waist (& I'm not getting any younger nor stronger), & the front hood is so bloody tall & square that they have huge blind spots up there that completely block if a little kid is about to walk by or in front - so that they need dang front-up + back-up cameras all around! Joe's '06 in his OP pic is more or less the last of the reasonable height trucks. Apparently when their marketing folks do their focus groups on the trucks, the young guys only want the big bulky jacked up look designs - even if they're far less aerodynamic & bigger fuel guzzlers, so their marketing research completely ignores the rest of the world, & the work truck folks who have to hoist equipment & materials way up all day long! Rant over!

That's my $0.04!
Tom
///////

Posted by: Ian Stott Aug 3 2016, 03:06 PM

Just drove my 73 with a 2056 with LJet, done by Mark Henry, 1600 KM last weekend. I am always surprised at how comfortable it is, of course I was tired, but not sore. I have a 99 C 230 Kompressor as my daily driver, has never let me down, stills rides beautiful, has great power and still looks good. Replaced the alternator 5 or 6 years ago and that is it. Change the oil when your supposed to and other normal maintenance when needed. Maybe the difference is we have annual safety inspections in my province so the car gets a good going over every year. Not to insinuate you are not looking after your cars, just telling my experience with German cars.

Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada

Posted by: MoveQik Aug 3 2016, 03:19 PM

We had a 2008 BMW 335 that we bought new for my wife. Worst car we have ever owned. Couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It was always in the shop for something. Usually minor, but still in the shop. She won't even consider a BMW for a car going forward.

Now she has a 2012 C250 Benz that has been flawless with close to 100k on the meter.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2016, 03:53 PM

I have a 2003 VW bug turbo that my wife inherited and I use as a dd/shop delivery car. I wouldn't of actually paid for one and it's just barely acceptable as a free car. My wife has a Honda. 235k with minimal maintenance and never let her down. I gave my 2004 hemi Durango to my son after I replaced the engine at 90k. POS Chrysler. But it's big so my wife likes all that sheet metal around my son.

Posted by: anderssj Aug 3 2016, 04:08 PM

trying to unload our old '86 5000cs turbo quattro . . . lemme know

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 3 2016, 04:27 PM

Killer styling on those 80's Audi 5000s & lower drag Cd than most contemporary sports cars Steve. I always loved the flush glass on them.

Of course, they also suffered from the runaway acceleration & cover-up issues as well.

I knew 2 ladies personally & their P+A service mgr. who confirmed it was an issue with their cars - not their right foot. One went off the end of the Balboa Island Ferry loading at the dock (fortunately her window was open & she swam out), the other was a super cautious elderly Newport Beach lady whose Audi went thru her garage back wall after she started edging in. NB/Chick Iverson & P+A quietly paid for new cars, repairs to house, medical & "damages" of an undisclosed amount in a quiet out-of-court settlement.

So don't believe the internet, marketing hush up, etc. It only happened on some few cars of the 100Ks built, & AFAIK they never fully figured out why, but replaced a certain run of the ECUs in the problem range to be sure.

If your 5000 is still running okay - or at least has lasted this long since that 80's problem when new, then it's probably one that escaped the fate, & is fine now - except for normal problems of its age.

As for our need - it's not a V8 nor a suitable tow vehicle, so it fails the primary mission of my getting a 6th vehicle in 47 years!

PS - our son's 88 Honda Civic Hatchback just hit 200K last July when he got here on summer leave, & it's been a solid car for him & 2 of his uncles (my wife's brothers) since bought new. His headlight/TS combo switch did go out this past Spring, but the part is NLA, so that's an issue for it & my cars.

PSS - Our neighbor had the 08 335 wagon which was a nightmarish money pit for every little thing - $1000 for an oil change, etc. - so he traded for a new Kia Soul with a 10yr/100K warranty - complete with Hamster Suit!

PSSS - I'd jump in any of our 85 E30 or 88 Westy & the 914 when done as Ian did with his 2056, but you do have to be diligent on upkeep to do that - even without the annual safety inspections, cuz the inspections really only scratch the surface.

The way I look at it, you'll either make payments on a continually replaced new car, or make regular repair & maintenance on keeping your used ones - so it's a wash. I don't know how I'll be able to do so with the new #6 TV of any make, given all the computers & electronics in them now, which will be NLA after 10-15 years.

GLWTS!
Tom
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Posted by: Marty Yeoman Aug 3 2016, 04:54 PM

1989 Chevrolet C2500 TBI 5.7 here. It"s probably not worth much $ right now but it sure is a reliable beast.

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 3 2016, 05:00 PM

Jim,

If you're not satisfied with the local shop your daughter takes the VW to, then try Hans Imports in Huntington Beach. Hans started out working at an Austrian VPA shop in the 1960's, worked for Circle Porsche in Long Beach in the late 60's to 72, when he started his own shop (& he was factory trained on our 914s from 69 too - which is how I started going to him in Summer 75 when I started looking for my 914, until he gave his blessing to the 73 2L I have).

His son works there now too, so if you want to talk direct with him, you'll have to ask for "Senior", & you can say that I recco'd you & your daughter (not that it will do you any good ;-). The "New Beastle" may still need expensive work (it's still a VW), but he'll tell you what to fix & what to ignore or whatever, & how best to resolve it.

He did advise me away from the new Beetle or old Bug as a car for our kids back in `03 FYI, & suggested Toyota or Honda .... & this is from an old school VPA Austrian guy still with a thick accent!

Cheers!
Tom
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Posted by: 2mAn Aug 3 2016, 07:25 PM

I owned over a dozen Mk1 & Mk2 VWs, and the 8v and diesels were bulletproof, and the one 16v had some issues. Loved those cars and they were pretty reliable.

Since then I moved to BMWs and the few Ive owned ( '91 M5, 86 ES & the current swapped car) all have been pretty reliable. My current E30 was my daily driver until earlier this year. I put 36k miles on it in 18 months. One coil pack failed on the 24v motor and every other issue I had was my own doing. Ive taken care of the maintenance and its been solid.

Had my friend not crashed it I probably wouldve never bought my current daily, a 08 C350. My buddy is a MB Tech and he said I got one of the most reliable newer MBs available right now. We'll see, I got it cheap because it has a lot of miles 130k when I bought it, it already has 142k and I havent had any issues .... yet. Time will tell.

I refused to buy any new car but when I was sort of forced to, I looked to find a car that has been developed, no new technology if I could avoid it. Turbos seem to be troublesome on anything other than a DSM, so that was out. I just wanted something "simple" and the Benz fits the bill for now. I secretly want to add A/C to the E30 and return it to DD status because that way I could keep my badass E30 and have the needed room to finally build a 914.

Posted by: MarkV Aug 3 2016, 09:31 PM

http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-engines-are-gigantic-pieces-of-shit-1784684330

Posted by: Ed_F Aug 3 2016, 10:19 PM

Oh man, I feel your pain. I used to work at a BMW/Mercedes shop, but had the misfortune of working on a few Jettas, A4s, and a Cayenne. They were diagnostic nightmares. One A4 in particular made me really consider calling a wrecker to come get my toolbox. The owner had a shade tree mechanic rebuild the motor, and it came into the shop a complete mess. It took a while, but I finally got it sorted out. The owner of the shop sent me to a VW/Audi variable valve timing / Direct injection coarse afterwards. Wish I knew what I had learned from that class before I had to deal with that particular car. Finished product paid well though

Modern BMW's on the other hand have equally atrocious quality. You could make a good living on oil leaks alone.

Some of the best cars I've ever were actually mentioned by other members. I had a 99 Mercedes C230 that went 270,000 before I gave it to a family member. The car was very solid and trouble free during my ownership. Had a 91 Miata that was pushing 300,000 before I sold it. My favorite was my 91 Saab 900 SPG. Rescued the car from Pick N Pull back in 2010. I replaced the headgasket, and took it on a 3500 mile cross country trip with no issues. I sold it to my brother, and it's still going strong with over 250,000 on the clock. Long live older cars

Posted by: porschetub Aug 4 2016, 01:42 AM

Yea late stuff is causing nightmares for people,always liked the bmw's had 7 of them,last one was a 1999 e39 touring ,it puked ever part known,sold it and bought an Audi 1.8 T neat wee car and was very reliable in the 87k kilometers I had it,moved up to a a4 avant 3.0 TDI ,legend motor and I had it flash tuned for more power 67k kilometers so far no issues however I change the oil on a very regular schedule.
Yes Japanese cars can go longer with neglected servicing but they generally not offering the finish quality or driving experience of the german cars period.

Posted by: 76-914 Aug 4 2016, 07:53 AM

My neighbor bought his wife a new 730 last November. The dealers tow truck has come to pick it up 4 times thus far. There have been 2 other times I've not seen the tow truck but I have seen her in a BMW loaner. Evidently it manages to make it home and dies in the garage?? He's got to be pissed!

Posted by: mrgreenjeans Aug 4 2016, 09:57 AM

As an owner of many Porsche Audi VW autos, I will say the Vintage products are in my experience FAR more superior to the later product.

I used a 1990 VW Fox ( made in Brazil ) that I purchased for several hundred dollars as an 8 year old car with 120,000 miles, for another 10 years and a total of 534,000 miles. I gave it to the guy I bought a fairly rare sunroof delete/delete special 944 from, using the car as a one way trip to Tucumcari, NM a distance of 1600 miles.

It used NO oil ever. ( much like the Audi 5 cylinder turbos and 944, 951, Carreras I own ) even on that 80mph cross country run in an End Of Life Vehicle. The guy still has it and uses it on short trips today but miles are unknown as odo broke shortly after he got it.

The only repair it EVER needed was an alternator at around 400,000 and a transmission replacement ( third gear lost a chunk and went thru the tranny at around 300,000 locking the trans in fourth. I put in a used one I got for $75.

One of the BEST and cheapest cars I ever owned.

( my current daily drivers are a '14 and '15 Corolla and a '13 Highlander, all bought new and with zero issues over 130,000 combined mileage use. I am sorry to say, the German new cars interest me less each time I hear of my friend's latest escapades at the local 'stealership'.

I buy vintage because of love for the old air coolers, the iconic driving experience old Porsches and Audis reward their drivers with, and the styles and build quality of 70's and 80's German 'think'.

And I buy new Toyotas for their appliance like dependability and low maint. ( amazing how great all of the above handle with a set of TRD anti-sway bars on them ). Free car washes for life. Free PDR for life. 2 years of free maint. and oil changes with a dealer that CARES about customer loyalty.

How many VAG dealers fit in that group ?

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 4 2016, 10:39 AM

Since they/she's in CA, IIRC she qualified under the 2nd or 4th time for our Lemon Law forced buy back program. She & anyone else in that predicament with crap new car QC should avail themselves of it in CA & any other state with a similar Lemon Law.

IIRC the CA Lemon Law triggers on the 2nd or 4th time in on the same issue, but what I'm hearing outside & here, is that these are multiple issues on the new BMWs & others, but I don't know what the legal trigger point is for a bad new car with a rash of different issues.

Read here:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/30/business/la-fi-five-lemon-20120930

https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/cars

CA-DCA Lemon Law PDF Booklet Download:
http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf

Let them know!
Tom
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PS - Another classic BMW kudo - I was really disappointed that my `85 E30 325e's Alternator died at 196K last year!!

Posted by: jmitro Aug 4 2016, 11:26 AM

oh no they aren't! my 06 X5 has had so many problems at 100k miles it's totally unacceptable! valve stem seals ($$$$), door handle carrier broke, axle went bad, brake booster went bad, HID headlight went bad, airbag suspension leak......and that's not even counting the water pump that I have to replace this weekend. it's a total POS.

I've owned three E36 M3s, E24 635, E46 m3, two E53 X5s, and they all had problem after problem.....

Only reason I drive a BMW is I do love the driving experience and they look good. But they are total money pits.

Posted by: billh1963 Aug 4 2016, 12:37 PM

I agree with much of the OP's original post.

In my opinion there are two issues in play:
1. The pervasive (and ever increasing use of electronics)
2. Increasing use of plastic and/or cheap parts with little concern for reliability beyond the warranty

The first item is self explanatory. The more sensors, computers, switches, etc. the greater the chance for failure

The second item is tied to the pressure to deliver more and more functionality yet keep the costs down. It wasn't too long ago a "fully loaded" car meant PS, PB, PW, PDL, AC, CC and maybe a nice radio. Now, a "base car" has all that plus a bunch of safety features (air bags, ABS, traction control, etc), infotainment centers, remote start, and a host of other features that add cost and weight.

Something has to give....and that is the bullet proof reliability we used to see in BMW, MB, etc.

Does anyone think plastic radiators, water pump impellers, coolant pipes, manifolds, etc. are a good idea?

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Aug 4 2016, 01:41 PM

"Country of Origin"...... more and more component parts are coming from China.

Ford's Mustang Manual Transmissions on late model cars are crap built in China. Guys are blowing them up on stock engine and tires after only a few runs down the strip.. that never happened to the American made Borg-Warners and even Mexican Tremecs.

Every manufacturer is sourcing more and more parts from China including the "Germans", Mexicans, 'Mericans.......

I guarantee that if you don't stand over the Chinese supplier with a gun to their head.. they will absolutely change materials to the cheapest they can possibly find, and I'm mean ANY plastic resin, and ANY metal alloy.

It will be the weakest, most toxic (plastics), least durable which can be found.

How many of those "factory defects" can be sourced back to the crappy bracket, or bolt or fastener sourced in China to save a buck on final assembly in Germany?

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Clone Aug 4 2016, 04:29 PM

No doubt the newest Porsches have some of the best engineering, and some of the shortest life components. The plastic they are using is garbage. It's kind of like "we are water cooling now, so let's build in a shorter service life".

We just sold our '06 Honda Odyssey to fund a '13 Nissan Altima purchase. The 193k mile Ody was a great car with only expected maintenance issues, and I really didn't want to sell, but the wife was tired of driving a van. It's hard to beat the reliability and service life of the Hondas, Mazdas, and Nissan products.

I'm lusting after a 964, but it will have to wait for a looong time. My B.I.L. just got a cherry mid 90's NSX and swears that's the way to go.

Posted by: Philip W. Aug 4 2016, 06:07 PM

I've had many many cars in 35 years of driving-
I put almost 400k miles in a 2002 Chevy suburban and all I ever did was put tires, brakes, 3x, shiftable 2wd, 4wd, awesome truck - that wa bought because I got tired of minivans and transmission problems(2 Chrysler )
- currntly on 170k miles on our 2007 Lincoln Navigator - every one loves it- no major issues , tow package etc,
My college car was a 82 ford escort, later for a 92 escort that we put over 300k miles and only did suspension once, tires and brakes 3x , timing belts , water pump - got my money out of that!
- also 2 Jaguars and I have to saw both awesome cars, still have the 2004 VDP- great highway mileage-28-30 on highway, 23 combined around here, not one leak, still uses no oil - and the 4.2 v8 will throw you back in the seat if you are not careful- faster than my boxster -!!!
On the other hand low quality and not dependable cars have been Audi,
Vw etx
I'd buy a 2000- 2010 jaguar again. In a second !

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 4 2016, 06:14 PM

and it takes 10+ book hours to service a relay or another electrical part that got buried during assembly.

those 92 escorts are certainly durable. the one my dad bought new that i gave to my cousin is still rolling. great little station wagon.

Posted by: somd914 Aug 4 2016, 06:31 PM

I can remember VW products of the 70's and 80's were far from reliable, at least the 74 Beetle we had and a few friends with Rabbits and Foxes. I wouldn't go saying German cars of yesterday were better, but given the advances in engineering / design tools, machining, and materials, I expect better. I also don't expect to have to drop an engine tray and bumper cover to replace a headlight bulb...

But anyway, I wouldn't blame country of origin. China can produce some high quality goods, and they can produce low quality, but the same is true of products built in the US, Germany, etc. Ultimately it comes down to the company. If Ford trannys are made in China and have a high failure rate, that is due to Ford, not China. Blame the auto manufacturers.

Posted by: jimkelly Aug 4 2016, 06:39 PM

you can't go wrong with a japanese car or a japanese wife (the little one) : )


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Posted by: carr914 Aug 4 2016, 07:23 PM

I can attest to the Cars at least Hondas. I have put at least a Million Miles on a batch of late 90s Civics. They don't break and get 35-40 MPG

Posted by: cuddyk Aug 5 2016, 12:04 AM

Well, I can't speak to the wife claim, but my Lexus GX470 was 10+ years old and 160K miles with just oil changes and new 02 sensors. And it saved my life. I'd still have it if I didn't total it in my driveway. Yep, I might be the only guy to ever do that. Went into a 4 wheel slide on black ice rolling down my hill. Broke through a fence and rolled into a ravine. Landed on its side. Side bags deployed. My son and I walked away. Loved that car.

Posted by: billh1963 Aug 5 2016, 06:41 AM

Planned obsolescence was decried as a bad thing. Now, it's just a fact of life. Very few of the current cars being manufactured will be economically viable to fix in 10 years.

Look at this thread on the troubles a simple coolant level sensor causes on the latest 911's (991's). Imagine the issues ten years down the road as these sensors and electronics age....

http://rennlist.com/forums/991/932850-weird-coolant-issue-991-2-a.html

Posted by: DirtyCossack Aug 5 2016, 08:54 AM

I was talking about this thread's subject with a buddy who is a Lexus Certified Master Mechanic and he said the quality and reliability of Lexus has gone down in his 15 years working for them. He has customers with 90s-early 2000s come in just for oil changes with over 500k and no issues but newer ones have "crazy stupid" problems you would never think of. A 90s LS400 is one of the most solid, reliable cars ever built.

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 5 2016, 01:27 PM

Wow - both of these posts above are right on point for me, since the T/L mid-size V8 SUV options which would even fit into our needs, are the 4Runner V8 (`03-09 only), GX470/460 or Land Cruiser & LX470/570 - & I don't seen many of the mid-2000's & earlier ones at <60K miles.

So the Lexus Tech is saying that the newer GX460 & LX570 are having stooopid problems now too, & presumably the 4Runner-V8 & Land Cruiser cousin are the same - then there may be no benefit over a `08-12 Cayenne S!?


However, there would still be the issues of Porsche parts 2x the T/L ones, & the Porsche propensity of making stuff 2x-3x as difficult to get to & diagnose, resulting in 2x-3x the labor costs - as my guy Hans says.

Good info guys!


Tom
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Posted by: Chris914n6 Aug 5 2016, 02:58 PM

Of all the work I've done on an 08 335i in the last 10k not a single failure was actually a BMW fault. It was all outside suppliers... Bosch, VDO, Mitsubishi. But I find the car to be pretty easy to work on compared to the E36. Sometimes a few extra steps, like removing the bumper cover to replace ballasts, but straight forward and simple. Parts prices have been from reasonable to ridiculous.

The thing that peeves me the most is a $180 trans filter because it's built into the oil pan. Combining makes it cheaper to build a car but isn't in the owners best interest.

It's not BMWs fault buyers want all the sensors and warning lights so they don't have to know enough about their car to check fluids or open the hood. It is however their, and others, fault that the knowledge of how these new systems work and what triggers codes is so hard to get. Even the BMW dealer is wrong with diagnostics sometimes. It's just going to get worse as control systems get more resistance based and away from voltage changes.

A huge amount of new electronics are safety or emissions related, both mandated by our elected officials.

What surprises me though is the number of mechanical failures given all the technology and decades of experience in mechanical engineering.

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 6 2016, 07:59 AM

Clutch packages with the pressure plate assem permanently fixed to the fw. So a clutch job means a new flywheel everytime. Endemic in the big scheme of things. Dishwashers with cheap plastic discharge valves for example. Metal hose ends that screw on to plastic threaded valves. The cheaply manufactured valve runs about $50. The service call? Prob $200+. Clothes dryer elements that fail right after the warrantee expires. Average homeowners will just replace the appliance.

Posted by: jmalone Aug 6 2016, 08:41 AM

1) 1962 Bug wife's family car since new. Great shape, thanks to me . Runs great but don't expect an experience more sophisticated than a mo-ped with a body. ( This car has not caught on fire lately).

2)1968 911. Slow. Complex. Worth more than it used to be. Price of admission exceeds the driving experience. Has not spun out lately (the last 30 yrs)

3) 1976 914. Fun

3)1984 Rabbit GTI. Worth every penny (pd $500). A keeper.

4)2010 TDI Jetta. 220k mi. Great car EXCEPT the high pressure fuel pump just failed catastrophically for the 2nd time. Really the car would be great but.........(waiting for VW to buy it back.

(etc: 1997 MB E 420 great car. 1996 Ford F250 7.3 reliable as a brick but 2x more funner to drive, 1984 MB 300D killed by a 16y old. 1999 Subaru outback, killed by a 17y old.)

Saw a 55 Chevy gasser yesterday, looks fun low profile with 2x 4 barrels and a 6-71 blower gonna get me one of those

Posted by: DirtyCossack Aug 8 2016, 09:16 AM

Most problems I've had with newer cars are electronic/sensors.

Posted by: jack20 Aug 8 2016, 11:13 AM

Great posts on a sore subject.
In over 50 years of driving the worst cars I ever owned were a '10 Mercedes C350 coupe and an '08 530i BMW. They were my wife's drivers. Couldn't keep them out of the shop.
She now has a Subaru. Couldn't be happier. Never again will I own either brand.

Posted by: Series9 Aug 17 2016, 07:11 AM

Just came back and read all the comments.


The only thing I have to say is if I could find a VW Fox Wagon in reasonable condition, I would buy it, restore it and keep it forever..

Posted by: JOEPROPER Aug 17 2016, 07:33 AM

Yes. VW Fox! Hard to kill. A friend had one a while back and he tried and tried.

Posted by: iwanta914-6 Aug 17 2016, 07:44 AM

I will say that my wife and I are quite pleased with our Subarus. I drive an '08 Forester (165k miles) and she has a '06 Tribeca (115K miles). Neither are "fun" to drive (unless there's 6+ inches of snow, hehe) but they have been reliable. Pretty much just standard wear items.

I've been thinking about what my next DD will be, and I've always wanted a BMW but the potential repair costs scare the bejesus out of me. In the end, when it is time to get something else, it will probably be another Subaru. I just need to make it a priority to add a 914 for some fun driving!

Posted by: Dion Aug 17 2016, 08:59 AM

The VW Fox! hahah I loved mine! It was a '89 Wolfsburg edition 4 door.
I found out all about under steer at autocrosses with it. Though the Pirelli tyres
were excellent. Never needed a repair in the 5 years I owned it. Traded it in for the
'92 GTi I still have.

Posted by: Curbandgutter Aug 17 2016, 03:59 PM

I bought a 2004 VW Touareg V8 fully loaded. It turned out to be a heaping pile of . I ended up selling it for $2,500 just to get rid of it. I will never but a VW or Audi that's for sure. In contrast I have a 2001 1500 suburban. It is 200 miles short of 300,000 and all I have done is changed the starter, water pump and alternator ONCE! It still has smooth power and you can not tell that it is on when idling. Incredible car! VW Touareg on the other hand.....major

Posted by: Chris H. Aug 17 2016, 05:08 PM

Holy crap! The temp shoots immediately to 250 and pegs the gauge??? That can't be good for the internals @ less than 2k miles.

Posted by: Amphicar770 Aug 17 2016, 06:53 PM

http://dougdemuro.kinja.com/german-reliability-the-greatest-myth-ever-sold-to-amer-1572026115

Posted by: carr914 Aug 17 2016, 07:07 PM

Joe, that is what I've done with my Civic Hatch! Big inside and gets 40mpg anywhere I go and I dive hard. I've had 3, one I bought new and sold too early, the next went over 400,000 Miles with the least amount of maintenance thinkable. I DD this one that I found last year with under 70,000, perfect inside. Cheap! I've done the regular stuff (Timing Belt, Water Pump, Motor & Tranny Mounts, Oil Changes), this can possibly go the rest of my life (don't drive 40k miles a year anymore). I'm going to & from the Glen in a couple of weeks and I won't bat an eye

Posted by: mepstein Aug 17 2016, 07:07 PM

My wife had one when I met her. Always needed something repaired. Got rid of it after a while.

Her current Honda has 230K with just gas, oil ant tires. Next car for her? Honda , big surprise

Posted by: carr914 Aug 17 2016, 07:21 PM

That was pretty good! I was a Test Driver for VW-Audi in the mid 90s. I blew up so many cars they called me the "Bug Killer" during the New Beetle prototype years The Audis when new were amazing, in 20,000 miles they were toast.

Me in AutoWeek (on the same page as Michael Schumacher)

Posted by: Amphicar770 Aug 17 2016, 07:22 PM

My sister bought a 2005 Corolla new. While it is as boring as they come, with 150k Miles currently it has basically been brakes, tires, normal hose. items. Recently it needed a new power steering hose.

Posted by: r_towle Aug 17 2016, 07:52 PM

I am looking at a used tesla.....

Posted by: Amphicar770 Aug 17 2016, 07:56 PM

http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/

Posted by: Garold Shaffer Aug 17 2016, 08:30 PM

The best I have had was the 96 F150 with I6. That engine was bullet proof. Put over 200k miles on it. I used it like a truck and other than standard stuff (oil, tires, belts....) had no issues with it. Rust is what finally killed it.

Now my 1990 Dodge Dakota was a total POS from day one. Alt in the 1st week, front diff in the 1st year, transmission 2nd year, had a water leak in the cab, radio went out twice, passenger window kept falling out of the track. Got rid of it in 93 for a 93 V6 Ranger ext cab. Great truck, put 100k on it little over 5yrs. Sold it after I bought the 96 F150 and finally was give a company truck.

Posted by: r_towle Aug 17 2016, 08:37 PM

Not shocked here, there is a lot going on with that car.
All the CPO cars get extended warrantees, so I still might do it"
This is one cool car...

Posted by: iwanta914-6 Aug 17 2016, 09:56 PM

Meh, does nothing for me. The Rimac Concept One on the other hand... Of course it's 10x the price.

Posted by: Frankvw Aug 18 2016, 03:11 AM

Our DD's :
very happy with our Seat Toledo (Seat is a brand of VW in Europe, not sure if they are in USA). actually it is a VW (all VW parts) and has a 1.2 TSI engine. I am happy with the car sofar, it has 30K miles and is like 3 years old now. We traded in our 2005 VW Golf Plus on it with 70K miles on the clock, great car, and if they were around new, my wife would want another one. however it ate coils (it has 4 coils, 1 per cilinder) and the headlights are designed very poorly (a broken small fitting needs you to replave the whole unit at 300$ each) and some electronic failures (they just reset it first on the computer (35$) and when the light comes back you have to come back to the VW dealer. I bought a ODB2 resetter for that car myself.

My wife drives a Kia Picanto 1.0 liter engine (small car, really small, problably not available in US) and it has 7 years of warranty. Sofar not a single repair on the car (5 years old 35K miles). half the car is plastic and the other half is steel, which will rust, but i guess it will last for 7 years :-)

hobby:
well...our 1978 T2B westfalia is doing great. Just got back from the 2000 mile trip, and no issues. My 1960 beetle is a beetle, enough said....not a lot that could break there. My 914 Porsche....well, I recently required it, so I have no idea yet....
I also had a MK1 GTI 1981 convertable, great fast car, in Mexico Braun (*). only issues were clutch and contacts in the steeringcolomn (from hanging to heavy keys from the contact). A 1991 golf convertable Classic Line 1.8, that car was really cool and fast, a true keeper, but I used it as a DD for years and it got sort of neglected, and gave electrical issues and leaks through rubbers when raining, which was not good for the electronics.... a broken suspensionspring.
(*) that brown car made me promise my wife NEVER to buy a brown car again. I did buy a brown 914 recently......I did not tell her the color when I bought it..... We are still discussing this :-)

Posted by: veltror Aug 20 2016, 08:23 AM

It is this "this is more reliable then that" discussion which leads to all sorts of point counter point, I have friends who works as techs for BMW, Lexus, porsche Audi etc and they all have tales to tell. A car is as reliable as it's component manufacturer, the continuing attack of the ECO-Nazis is responsible for lots of this, components are down graded to be replaced with lighter products, plastic wedges on Mk4 Golf windows for example, plastic Ford thrust bearings etc etc.


Of course cost cutting has a lot to do with this but in general I have found all my cars to be reliable I have been exclusively VAG since I was 17.

I have had Golfs, Jettas, Boras, Passats, Polos, Tiguan, Audi A6 and a new A4. The most frustrating failures in all of these cars was the plastic fuel flap retainer on my A6, thin plastic which was obviously too thin. Apart from that nothing.

Best car I had Golf Mk2 16V fast good fun
Worst Car Bora 130PD good car but soulless


R

Posted by: RobW Aug 20 2016, 09:53 AM

Its a shame VW does make cars like Toyota or Honda. It would do pretty well.

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 20 2016, 11:13 AM

Back in `88 when we bought our VW Westy new, I purposely avoided their option package with the power windows, door locks, cruise control, etc. because of my concerns with VW quality control, to the extent that we had the dealer do a dealer swap for another Westy in the same Dove Blue, but without the power package.

I also didn't pay their asking $800 for the dealer installed VW branded AM/FM/Cassette radio (no lie on price, & yes, still not a factory option even by `88) - when I could get a better quality top end Sony deck for about $200! I was also proven correct on that, since most VW radios have since died, & I've only replaced the Sony with a newer JVC to get CD & BT added!

I was likewise nonplussed by the fact that the high-$20Ks sticker price on the `88 Westy was a bit more than was my 85 BMW E30 325e 2Dr Sport Coupe - whose electricals & options all still work - when the VW still had the stooooopid single TS indicator light (instead of L & R lights), as the 914s went to for the 74 cost cutting measures.

I mean really! .... The whole purpose of having a TS indicator in the first place, is to give the driver a visual confirmation that they have the correct direction lit, otherwise why bother!?

Although late 90's to current BMWs do have quality & complexity issues - in those days 80-90's they were clearly far better made cars! .... & generally more reliable than any of the contemporary vehicles from the USA Big 3, most of which eventually improved later on.

Both cars have had their driver side window regulators replaced due to high use - electric on the E30 & manual on the Westy, but the BMWs power windows have been flawless so far in 200K miles & 3+ decade. As I said in a prior post - the long term repairs & maintenance on the VW Westy is 4x that of the BMW over the past 28 & 31 years respectively.

The more knowing & sarcastic of us used to call VW's "German Engineering" ad campaign "Fart-fig-newton" because we new in large part it was all just marketing fluff!

VW has always had a schizophrenic corporate personality - trying to do things on the cheap as a continuation of "The Peoples' Car" concept, & trying to be a top German premium/near-luxe brand (recall their Phaeton & branding the Touareg as a Luxe or Premium SUV), & not doing either well as a result - ergo the recent TDI cheating scheme - which has done far more than just cause question on their diesels, going beyond to make folks question what else they've cheated on in terms of quality control & good engineering.

Certainly the Honda/Toytoa & some Nissan, & the later Hyundai/Kia cars have been very consistently good quality & long term reliable cars.

Hyundai pulled themselves out of being crappy cracker-boxes up through the 1980's, into atop quality car since, & back it with a 10yr/100K mile warranty. So if they could pull themselves up, certainly VW & the other German brands can do likewise.

To the contrary, I've heard recently on the Bimmer forums that BMW has shortened their new car & CPO warranties, & the CPO has basically "written out" any liability for their known problems on the cars in the CPO contract language!

Cheers!
Tom
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Posted by: veltror Aug 22 2016, 04:52 PM

Kia good quality I laughed so much i dropped my cucumber sandwiches into my morning tea

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 23 2016, 04:44 PM

Veltor, it was during our `85 honeymoon in the UK & Ireland whe we had a crap-box Hyundai hatchback as our hired car BTW. A total pile!

Most of them in the 2000's with family & friends I know here are good quality, & the newer ones which I've had as my rental cars on my business trips here in the States (we don't "hire cars" here ;-) have been nice driving cars, but I can't speak personally to their long term reliability from personal ownership.

And even IF there were problems - at least they give you 10 years or 100,000 miles of warranty to take care of it on THEIR ticket - unlike the current VW/A/P 48/50k warranties, & leaving TDI owners hung out to dry for a year on THEIR cheating scheme!!!!

I've owned 2 P/VW/A vehicles for several decades now - my `73 914-2.0 since Dec. 75 & our `88 VW Westfalia since new - & neither were perfect, but the 914 was much better build quality & less trouble than the WBX Vanagon/T25!

But I'm just not a VW-only guy like you obviously are, but will probably end up with a Porsche Cayenne S soon anyway (unless we go the Lexus GX460/470 route).

Besides, who the heck eats cucumber sandwiches for breakfast anyway!!??
... or at all for that matter!!?? Put some meat or protein in there!

PS - don't push it too much, or you'll open the whole Lucas, Brit car can of worms!

Cheers Mate!
Tom
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