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Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 12:37 PM

We decided to make some steel calipers for Eric, as we are already dong the aluminum ones, and it turned out to be a fiasco!

My foundry guy decided to to use steel instead of a grade of iron that was hard-enable.

Didn't find out unit I got the bill from my machinist as about 3x what we thought it should be. Long story short, we have about 4 sets of calipers that are very nice. The only difference you will notice over factory is the hardware is 8mm not 7mm.

Looking to get $925 a set. Unfortunately, this still is selling at a loss.

Eric has built up one set, and has the spacers for the vented ones, so just looking to cut some losses as they do me no good setting on a shelf. I will post in classifieds, but wanted to put this up here to give a little back story. I have one built set now and can have Eric build vented / non vented sets to order.

These include the upgraded duro-anno pistons also!


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Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 12:43 PM

Another pic


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Posted by: toolguy Aug 24 2016, 12:44 PM

Just a sidenote. . Six calipers were NOT gold cad originally. . they were silver. Might be a consideration for the next run. . What do these use for rebuild kits?
They look identical otherwise. . Nice effort on your part Mark. .

Here is my remaining NOS 6 Caliper. . definitely silver from the factory


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Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 12:48 PM

one more


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Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 12:52 PM

Eric put them together, I do know the pistons are the duro anno, but as far as the guts go, Eric was generous enough to source the parts, I'm sure they are top notch. He has several sets un built, so if color is an issue it could be changed, just a matter of coat and time to do so.

Posted by: NeunEinVier Aug 24 2016, 03:06 PM

Very pretty! The black oxide hardware will probably start rusting after the first rain or wash though.

Which foundry are these coming from? (I used to work in the cast iron industry.)

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 24 2016, 03:12 PM

My set of factory six rear calis. in the OG ATE boxes are gold.. they do fade to silverish overtime though.. even when not on a 914

Posted by: NeunEinVier Aug 24 2016, 03:20 PM

The fading is due to the slow breakdown of the plating, instead of the part rusting.

From: http://www.streetmachineclub.com/features/articletype/articleview/articleid/177/don39t-paint-it-plate-it

"Yellow cadmium plating (or yellow cad) is common on many production automobiles. Yellow cad is in a class of metal coatings known as “sacrificial coatings.” When exposed to the elements, these coatings are designed to sacrifice themselves in order to protect the underlying base metal. The bright yellow cad fades to silver then to a chalky white coating."

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 24 2016, 03:34 PM

and yellow zinc is brighter..

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 05:19 PM

Made here in the US at a local foundy, actually double Cad plated

Posted by: pete000 Aug 24 2016, 06:07 PM

Whats the story on the alloy version? I was pondering going with the alloy ones because they're 4 pounds lighter.

Posted by: mb911 Aug 24 2016, 06:46 PM

They look great.. Not ready for them just yet though.

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 24 2016, 09:49 PM

These are steel not the aluminum ones.
However, Eric's generosity in building these is allowing for a price reduction. , $799 A SET!
THANKS ERIC!

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2016, 07:45 AM

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 25 2016, 11:03 AM

Allow ones are in production and for sale at PMB!
http://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/8778676/9712726.htm
He has them on sale at $899 a pair right now.


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Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 25 2016, 11:15 AM

Actually they are significantly more than 4lbs lighter!

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 25 2016, 01:03 PM

And pretty much sold out. I bought one of the two last sets. As I said in my project thread, if you want the other set, better blow up Eric's phone!

Posted by: pete000 Aug 25 2016, 02:37 PM

The alloy ones are on my wish list...

Posted by: NeunEinVier Aug 25 2016, 03:01 PM

The cast alloy calipers appear to be made from patterns matching the original calipers.

Shouldn't the patterns have been substantially enlarged (increased wall and rib thicknesses, etc) to account for use of the weaker alloy aluminum material?

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 25 2016, 03:11 PM

These have been engineered and tested. With may happy customers using them.

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 25 2016, 03:20 PM

If you look close in this picture, you'll see my alloy - Alfa Romeo GTV-6 brakes. The have the same bolt pattern as the stock 4 cylinder fronts. They seem to me to be about the same size as the stock 4 cylinder fronts. I have tortured the living snot out of these two front calipers and I can't even wear the pads out! Remember, we're talking about alloy rear calipers. The rear calipers job is to make you stop straight and not much more. The possibility of vibration or flex has been handled with the larger hardware. So if the fronts can be the same size as their iron alternative (and they do the bulk of the work) why would the rears need to be bigger? What is it you think might happen?


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Posted by: mepstein Aug 25 2016, 03:38 PM

Early Aluminum S calipers weren't really any larger than steel M calipers. The 914-6 GT seemed to do just fine. The rear aluminum calipers seem to be plenty beefy for the job. Probably overkill. Don't knock it till you try it.

Posted by: NeunEinVier Aug 25 2016, 04:35 PM

The engineers of the OEM calipers must have designed the iron caliper to be many times stronger than necessary, so it's still adequate when cast in aluminum.

You'd think the engineers would have designed the iron calipers to be as light as possible (for performance and less manufacturing material), but apparently they wanted a larger safety margin and went for overkill.

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 25 2016, 05:21 PM

Let me say this. The calipers that were cast in aluminum are not an identical copy.

Posted by: jd74914 Aug 25 2016, 05:37 PM

I read the fastener size increase on PMB's website, but I don't quite know what is has to do with anything in terms of caliper stiffness. I get increasing fastener size as a way to reduce bearing stress on the fastener surface since larger diameter fasteners also have larger surface area bolt/nut heads. The would help if there was concern of boss cracking after some number of cycles.

It seems easier to get 8mm fasteners in all strengths which would be a primary driver for me to change fastener size...



Yeah, I would have thought they would have done some more optimization too. On the other hand, metal was cheaper in the '70s and 3D FEA wasn't really a thing so maybe the cost of optimization through prototyping was too high?

Are they iron? Or steel? I feel like they are probably steel since it has so much better resistance to crack propagation from casting porosity, etc.



My concern is always fatigue life with aluminum parts. The problem is that you don't know there is a problem until maybe years later if you are in the high cycle fatigue region. Aluminum has a significantly smaller stress amplitude limit (about 3x less) than steel for the no endurance limit case (ie: the point they will never ever break).

PMB says the calipers flex 0.002" (not really meaningful since it doesn't equate that to any clamping force, etc. but) which is an order of magnitude less than some racecar calipers I've used, but we replaced those pretty frequently too.

From a sudden failure perspective, IIRC aluminum's fracture toughness/yield strength ratio is a bit better than cast iron so you're more likely to deform the things than crack them from a casting imperfection which is probably good. Of course, it the OEM calipers are steel the converse is true.



Just so everyone knows, my comments here aren't to knock them. They just worry me a bit long term since the amount of analysis into them isn't publicized. I'd love to see it though!

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 25 2016, 07:18 PM

Mark, were the aluminum calipers halves cast from a 'match plate' pattern?

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 25 2016, 10:41 PM

Guys, this thread is about the steel calipers.

Posted by: raynekat Aug 30 2016, 06:12 PM

Mark:

How do I get a set of these steel calipers built up?
Would want the spacers so I can run vented discs.
Thanks

ps replied to the For Sale ad as well....

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 31 2016, 11:29 PM

I can have Eric Build them up. The spacers for vented are a $40 adder (4pcs), but I'll ask him to do up on of the 3 that way. There are only 4 left including the 3 that are being build. 20 of the 3 are spoken for, so actually only 2 sets left and there will be no more.

Posted by: raynekat Sep 1 2016, 01:09 AM

Mark, I need a set of these with the spacer so I can run the vented rotors.
Let me know how to proceed...like where to send a deposit or whatever funds you need to get this going.
Thanks