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Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Sep 22 2016, 06:56 PM

Accessible only by ATV you say? I know it's not a 914, but thought you guys might like to see one more saved, in this case an early Pre-A.
KTF-
Adam


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Posted by: billh1963 Sep 22 2016, 06:59 PM

It's amazing the cars that are being discovered these days. What's even more amazing is that someone will undertake a restoration on cars like that!

Posted by: keely444 Sep 22 2016, 07:03 PM

Very cool find.What is next?

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Sep 22 2016, 07:03 PM

The upside of a car like this in the hundreds of thousands, that leaves a lot of room for a restoration. Most likely it will go to Europe then be sent to one of the cheap metal masters in Eastern Europe and come back west for engine/paint and interior.

Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2016, 07:12 PM

That is really cool.

-Steve

Posted by: mangrum Sep 23 2016, 10:31 AM

It's always good to hear of rescuing these cars.

If it is truly an early Pre-A then it's uber rare and potentially very valuable. I believe, however, that early Pre-As were split windshield. Or at least bent windshield. But I don't see that.

Good luck!

Mike

Posted by: iwanta914-6 Sep 23 2016, 10:43 AM

How on earth do you find them?

Do you have to know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that remembers a story about some other guy that said as a kid saw something buried in the middle of the woods that kind of looked like a 356?

Posted by: bretth Sep 23 2016, 10:49 AM

Awesome find. Damn kids jumped on the poor car's roof.

Brett

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2016, 11:07 AM

Was talking with a local 356 restore guy just this week. I haven't seen a 356 not worth saving. If it still has a VIN you can read somewhere, it's worth saving.

Posted by: relentless Sep 23 2016, 11:20 AM

Somewhere over near Keno, Oregon, there was a 356 sitting somewhat near a house literally going back into the earth. I saw it in the late '70's and was told the owner bought it for his wife, and when she died the car was never driven again. A sad fate for at the time a complete example.

Posted by: mbseto Sep 23 2016, 02:47 PM

At that point, you're just restoring it as a template to create a new car. It reminds my of the Stephen Wright joke (paraphrased), last night someone snuck into my garage and replaced all my cars with identical copies.

Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Sep 23 2016, 09:46 PM

Matt is right, what you have here is some metal that bears a strong resemblance to an early 356. When that car is reconfigured with new reproduction sheetmetal, period-correct interior components, and hard and soft trim items, virtually the only original piece on the car will be the VIN.

When it is completed, it will be no more a PORSCHE than the Beck 550 spyders or 356 Speedsters.

Someone with more money than sense will spend far too much money on what amounts to a reproduction automobile rather than a restored vehicle or even a "tribute" or "clone", since there will be virtually no Porsche DNA left in the final product.

And the final bit of irony is that the final purchaser of that "reconfiguration" will look down on a 914 and think that the 914 is "not a real Porsche".

Paul

Posted by: Catorse Sep 23 2016, 10:39 PM

Wow, you have a chip on your shoulder the size of Rhode Island. Get over yourself, lots of people like both the 356 and 914s equally. I have never heard a 356 owner disparage a 914 either.

and YES I own a 356 and a 914 as well as some other Porsches.

And yes they are all Porsches!

Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Sep 23 2016, 11:41 PM

You miss my point, when that car is reconstituted it will not be a 356, rather it will just look like a 356. Similarly, I've been to PCA events where the "cognoscenti" will fawn over a Beck 550 with a VW engine, that I will admit was well executed, but it is not a Porsche, it just looks like a Porsche.

I assume you are familiar with the term for "knock-off" high end timepieces, leather goods, designer clothing, etc.? Counterfeit?...."something false or copied that pretends to be genuine". That's what that car in the woods will be if it gets to be reconfigured to look like a 356. And someone will probably pay north of 100 large to buy it. But Porsche mania does not have an exclusive right to this sort of insanity as more than a couple very high end Italian cars have been reconstituted with little more than a few frame fragments and a chassis number.

And finally, I guess I must have a chip on my shoulder because authenticity, originality and integrity are highly prized by me when it comes to automobile valuation.

Paul

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 24 2016, 09:30 AM

So, where do you draw the line? We assume the VIN is intact. Suppose the cowl, windshield frame and roof are retained...I know, working the roof back to shape will take a master metal massager and beau coup hours. And let's say correct suspension and engine components are located and installed. Isn't that enough DNA to call it a Porsche 356?

We've seen some intense rustorations on this site that entailed piecing together from many donors to make a whole car, including repro sheet metal panels. Are those just 'knock offs"?

I'm glad this 'car' has been saved from rusting into the earth and I'm pretty sure if I saw it at a show with a notebook of restoration pics that I'd be amazed and impressed.

Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Sep 24 2016, 09:48 AM

If someone media blasted that car (I'd love to see the residual metal that was left), welded in Porsche manufactured chassis and body panels (some of which are available), sourced an era appropriate 356 engine, and added as much OEM interior/exterior hard and soft trim as possible.......yea, I'd call that a Porsche.

Paul

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 24 2016, 12:24 PM

OK, so, no reproduction body panels. What if the restorer hand fabricates a panel and welds it in? Is it ok to reupholster seats using modern fabric and the original seat frame? Are new fasteners allowed? What about interior door panels? I could go on but I don't want to beat that horse. To me, a restoration is as much about the documentation as the the finished piece. I want to see the starting point and the processes and materials that go into the final presentation. In the end however, a restoration must stand on it's own and reflect an attention to detail appropriate to the level to which it aspires.

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 24 2016, 01:33 PM

I just hope she can be saved.

Posted by: jmitro Sep 24 2016, 02:11 PM

I, for one, LOVE these finds and rescues missions. So cool!

I get your point, but Kelty360 is right.....where do you draw the line?

Posted by: BK911 Sep 24 2016, 04:00 PM

Wow.
99% of that *car* will be replaced.
Keep the Vin and replace everything else.
And that's OK with some who don't agree with Vin swapping.
What's the difference?

Posted by: Vysoc Sep 24 2016, 04:05 PM

Great conversation

I love the PURE Porsche 356 Shape especially of a Pre-A Coupe.

I hope this one has enough left to make it back!!

Vysoc

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 24 2016, 05:56 PM

Good point regarding VIN swapping, but I think there is way more than 1% of the car that's salvageable. I see front suspension components in one pic. The cowl looks intact, the front trunk floor and left inner fender plus the nose looks viable. Hard to tell from the pics but even the firewall looks intact. No doubt the floor is gone, but it's a vw, right? The floors are always gone. The windshield frame looks solid and the rear window openings look uncompromised. The roof has been oil-canned but doesn't look creased. I'm no expert but don't think it's that bad a starting point for a master restorer. Thousands of hours...yes, but no doubt worth the time and effort. JMHO

Posted by: Catorse Sep 24 2016, 06:50 PM

The 356 in that picture will have lots of good metal to start with. Mine was about that bad minus all the dents. Plus, you add parts from OTHER 356s - little mechanical bits, etc. to make a complete car.

Plenty of repro metal out there, and BTW, Porsche NOS metal is nearly gone.

As to comparing it to a Beck or other replica - guess what, a Beck doesn't have a Porsche VIN. So there you are.

Posted by: bandjoey Sep 24 2016, 07:22 PM

Museum piece
Collectors garage
Fireplace mantle art
No different than a Flathead Ford hot rod with a new body.

It's what the owner wants. My 2cents.

Cool to see it saved anyway.

Posted by: My 914 Sep 25 2016, 07:41 AM

Agreed. If the owner is happy with the project and/or the car, that's all that matters. The rest is just opinion.

Posted by: Mikey914 Sep 25 2016, 09:30 AM

Where do you draw the line-
Basically if you have the vin tag, you are building the car around it.
Legally I guess that's it, but is the spirit of the car there?

Posted by: bretth Sep 25 2016, 09:48 AM

It's automotive archeology. Many other cars in this shape would just be left to disintegrate. How awesome that one more will be saved from the brink with at least some of its original parts.

Brett

Posted by: Larmo63 Sep 25 2016, 09:48 AM

I'm getting rid of the 914 Rubber on my car.

It wasn't made in Germany.

Posted by: jmitro Sep 25 2016, 12:02 PM

LOL touche'

Posted by: DirtyCossack Sep 25 2016, 12:24 PM

Was Darth Vader still Anakin Skywalker?

I had a philosophy professor ask that question and coupled it with the fact that every cell in your body dies and gets replaced every x years, so physically you are not the same person you were x years ago. Or what if doctors could perform a brain transplant: You and a buddy are in a bad car wreck, you're paralyzed from the nose down and his body is perfect but brain dead; they put your brain in his body, who is buried and who is alive?

Edit to add: If Darth Vader and Frankenstein's monster are both formed out of random "after-market" parts, is Darth Vader "different" and "granted citizenship" differently because he has a "history" vs F's Monster who is just now born? Or can the Monster claim lineage from a donor?

Posted by: DirtyCossack Sep 25 2016, 12:48 PM

So when is it a VIN swap?

Let's say I have a super rusted and wrecked (rolled and flipped) 914-6 and a rust-free and straight 914-4 parts car.

Scenario A: I cut the VIN tags off the 6, carry them across the garage and weld them onto the parts car.

Scenario B: I cut out around the VIN tags, carry all of the parts from the 4 across the garage and weld them around the 914xxx tags.

Scenario C: I cut the parts car into 100 pieces, cut the 6 into 100 pieces, mix them all together then weld the best of them together with the 914xxx VIN tag.

Scenario D: I cut the parts car into 100 pieces, cut all of the rust off of the 6 (90+% of the car), buy a few Restoration Design parts and put the 6 together with the RD parts and pieces of the donor 4.

Scenario E: I cut the parts car into 100 pieces, cut all of the rust off of the 6 (90+% of the car), buy every piece Restoration Design sells and puts the 6 together with the RD parts and pieces of the donor 4.

Scenario F: I restore the 6 by cutting one bad area off of the car at a time, repairing it with a good section from the donor car until I have a complete 6 with a 914xxx VIN tag.

Scenario G: I restore the 6 by cutting one bad area off of the car at a time, repairing it with either a good section from the donor car, some RD pieces, and some fabbed pieces until I have a complete 6 with a 914xxx VIN tag.

Does it matter if the VIN plates never leave "the car"? ie the section/pile/whatever of metal in that particular garage bay versus the tags getting carried across the shop, put on the work bench, etc.


This is why I think it's important for shops/restorers to present records and photos of work done and for buyers to demand it. Luckily the ethics of Frankenstein/Darth Vader cars are less so than with humans, and can be determined by informed buys who should and do pay more for original cars, a little less for ones with some work, etc.

Posted by: jack20 Sep 25 2016, 04:47 PM

I have a late friend who "restored"classic wooden boats. Through him I learned a little about how these boats have survived over the years. Some rare and valuable Hackers and Gar Woods are passed on through generations and maintained along the way.
Other more common brands such as Chris Craft are sometimes discovered in back yards left outside to rot for 60 years.
While the hardware, gauges and data plate may still be intact, the boat is nothing more than a pattern. Often, the engines are long gone. He actually called them "pattern boats" and built 3 of them. Records of these boats are still maintained very much like a Porsche COA.
He bought the mahogany at a lumber yard, formed it into something so beautiful it seemed a shame to get it anywhere near water.
The judges at the annual Lake Tahoe concours d' elegance awarded his boats accordingly.
I've always looked at rusted out 356s the same way the boat guys view a rotted wood boat. if they have a vin they are genuine. A restored 356, regardless of how much new metal was still born a Porsche.
A Beck Speedster will never be a Porsche. It will always be a Beck.
$.02

Posted by: JmuRiz Sep 25 2016, 06:58 PM

I'm with jack20, 356s are like 914s only having more years to rust. Unless its been redone by someone in the past, it's probably rusty and will need a lot of repairs anyway.

Mine had the bottom 4" or so fixed on it by the PO and it looked just fine to the avg viewer. Only thing left to do now are door bottoms.

A pre-A, A or any drop top model is well worth saving...even if they look like this car.

Posted by: mbseto Sep 26 2016, 08:29 AM

VIN swap is not a technical concept, it's a moral concept. Are you being transparent and not deceiving anyone (intentional or not)? Whatever was done to the car, is it properly disclosed and straightforward to track? Not a VIN swap.

Are you hiding something to make an extra buck? Trying to fool someone? That's a VIN swap.

Obviously, even if your motives are pure- if you do something dumb and/or suspicious, the law gets the final say and they use the technical facts because you can't read a person's mind.

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 26 2016, 08:55 AM

Ignoring the idea of if the final car is truly a Porsche or not, I wish I had the metal working skills to bring a car like this back. Anyone who does is just amazing!

Dragging stuff like this out of the woods is pretty neat though. How do you find it?

Posted by: era vulgaris Sep 26 2016, 10:07 AM

Yeah I always wonder how these cars that are abandoned in these bizarre, remote locations ever even got there in the first place. Would be cool to know those stories!

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Sep 27 2016, 06:12 PM

I want everyone to closely read and look at the pictures of what was left of 550-0001 when it was found in a shoe factory in Mexico. How much of that car is original? But I bet you won't find one person who would walk into the Collier Collection and called it a reproduction. If you own the car, and replace 99% of it, you still own the car. What you can't do is what a lot of guys try to do, build the car off an old part of the car. There was a guy who had a Carrera Speedster he said, he put the number out there and a guy in Sweden popped up and he had the car, turns out the 1st guy bought a pair of doors with a story of how the car was scrapped, well, it wasn't and he was commiting fraud, trying to build a car around a pair of doors. Or another guy who bought a bunch of RSR leftover parts, found a chassis and starting building the car, only to get $250,000 into it, about to take it to Amelia Island and some guy in Denmark said he had the burned up shell in his backyard.
But if you own the car and build it, that's the car.

Check out 550-0001.
https://unobtaniuminc.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/porsche-550-01-spyder-the-prototype-giant-killer/


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Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Sep 27 2016, 06:15 PM

People know to call me, I pay very fair and can get a car out of anywhere. I also pay very nice finder's fees so lots of guys are looking for me.

Posted by: Garland Sep 27 2016, 09:18 PM

Check out 550-0001.

WOW!

Posted by: bretth Sep 27 2016, 10:35 PM

Amazing that they did away with the whole aluminum body. Just thinking about what could have happened to it, could have been melted down and turned into a door stop.

Brett