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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Re-clipped car and VIN number
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Sep 25 2016, 08:07 AM
So this weekend did not turn out well for one of our members Shane (JetsetSurfShop). We ran his awesome car at the 14 Hours of Sebring and unfortunately a driver suffered and off which bent the front of the car in pretty bad. In my opinion, the simplest, most cost effective fix is to replace the front clip with that of another car. Luckily there are several options nearby.
I know that Shane has not thought that far ahead yet and I'm sure he is still very upset about this weekend. But though I didn't drive the car, he's a good friend of mine, and I'd like to help him get it back on the road. The question is, when a clip is changed on a car, is this the one and only time it is then acceptable to cut out the old VIN and swap it to remain with the chassis? Or is the acceptable practice to retain the vin stamped fender with the new front clip on the old chassis?
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Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 25 2016, 09:47 AM
Wow- so sorry to see that picture. IMHO, for what that is worth, it is never acceptable to cut out and replace a VIN number into a clip being welded on. Though your motivation might be solid gold, no issues at all re ethics, etc., it is always a couple sellers down the road where it all of a sudden is not mentioned and someone ends up with a clipped car with the original cars VIN welded in and someone will take a hit.
Now, if this is a dedicated race car, and the cars log book contains all of this documented to the last detail including damage, repair and VIN replacement photos, perhaps that is easier to accept. But then I would ask, what is the need to swap out the VIN? Another option might be to weld in the old VIN next to the new clip VIN, just thinking out loud here....
In the end, I just do not want to see a future buyer end up with a big surprise when they are working on the car.
Posted by: r_towle Sep 25 2016, 10:37 AM
Sorry, never acceptable but spend a bit more and retain the stock inner fender
Posted by: mb911 Sep 25 2016, 10:42 AM
I always find this interesting as in the mustang and camaro world where you can buy body's in white it is acceptable.. I do agree it needs to be documented but also realize that it happens on the legit side often as well..
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 25 2016, 11:23 AM
I would try to put it on a Celette bench and pull it ...
Posted by: Chris914n6 Sep 25 2016, 02:34 PM
Just weld the VIN on top of the replacement clip VIN plate. That way the question gets asked and answered.
Posted by: GermermanCarGuy Sep 25 2016, 02:53 PM
Just weld the VIN on top of the replacement clip VIN plate. That way the question gets asked and answered.
Um, no.
Posted by: rgalla9146 Sep 25 2016, 03:07 PM
Make the repair forward of the stamped VIN ?
Posted by: Mikey914 Sep 25 2016, 03:17 PM
Honestly looks like the vin stamp may not be affected, or much. The metal can be reached worked if necessary, but may not be a huge job.
Posted by: Cracker Sep 26 2016, 06:22 AM
George - Bummer. I too believe that can be "fixed" and the VIN question becomes a non-issue. It is a race car - it doesn't have to be perfect - shed a few pounds in the process and your ahead of the game. This is the reality (potential) for anyone who tracks their car in any venue/event - especially so in ChumpCar.
Tony
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Sep 26 2016, 07:04 AM
Yup, good responses here folks. I am honestly asking out of complete ignorance - never got that far into something like this before.
I wasn't able to get pictures of the inner fenders at the track, but the passenger one is pushed back with a good 2-3 inches of "foldover" and the rear of the control arm mount has been torn from the body. The driver side isn't much better. It does seem possible that the fender can be straightened but my initial thought was that it would be easier to just cut those spot welds and do the whole clip at once.
Indeed I would never want to deceive someone about the history of a car. Anyone who would buy a track car down the road would probably expect some prior damage, but the physical evidence of a major change like that shouldn't be hidden from the buyer. I know Shane would never do that. But the guy who bought it from that guy may not be given that same narrative, so I can see the point of retaining the swapped vin number along with the other photographic documentation.
I hope that my post didn't come across as deceptive. Just want to help this guy make it right and do it "right".
If there is any positive, it was really interesting to see how the fronts of these cars deform in an impact as comprehensive as this one. For such a seemingly flimsy front end, you can see how it all works together to keep the driver safe. The DS wasn't hit nearly as bad as the passenger, but it shared a good brunt of the deformation, dissipating energy along the way. It's the price we pay for thin sheet metal, but it's also why these cars are so light and run circles around the bigger BMWs and Mustangs 
Posted by: cary Sep 26 2016, 08:14 AM
I would try to put it on a Celette bench and pull it ...
I'm with Andy. See if it can be pulled out first.
All three of the rally cars I'm working on have had some sort of front end damage or poor repair. Car #1 just got back from the rack and it was a 964 with about the same damage.
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 26 2016, 09:33 PM
That is a total bummer!
My wife and I were wondering how the race went.
I happen to have left and right fenders cut off in the middle of the wheel arch forward. You would have to decide if that was enough metal to work with.
I also have a decent but not perfect front panel.
I have one headlight bucket.
I would be happy to donate them to the project (i.e. get them out of my garage finally).
I would try to fix it like people are saying, it will be stronger than clipping it in the end.
John
Posted by: SixerJ Sep 27 2016, 12:38 AM
I always find this interesting as in the mustang and camaro world where you can buy body's in white it is acceptable.. I do agree it needs to be documented but also realize that it happens on the legit side often as well..
Indeed I have wondered the same thing about how much DNA exists for re-shelled BMC cars, no welded in tags, just pop rivets. New shells available for MGs and Minis. Not the same car in my book. Sorry for the hijack
http://www.bmh-ltd.com/products.htm
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 27 2016, 11:15 AM
Like i said above, i've seen much worse pulled back into spec.
You'll still have to replace a whole lot of mangled sheetmetal but as long as you can get the suspension pickup points back to where they should be, you'll be fine.
No need to clip anything.
Posted by: boogie_man Sep 27 2016, 11:21 AM
I would try to put it on a Celette bench and pull it ...
^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Sep 27 2016, 12:16 PM
Gotcha, thanks guys. It would indeed be really cool to see/participate in a Celette pull. However, I don't think we have any in Florida. I think the closest would be Scotty B in VA, which would certainly be a worthwhile person to repair this 
The most cost-effective would probably be to clip it with a local donor car, but perhaps Shane wouldn't mind a trip to VA. I'd happily tag along, if nothing else to see the inside of Kahiko Customs!
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 27 2016, 12:26 PM
I bet there are plenty of Celette benches in Florida.
You rent the fixtures for the car from Celette anyways, and they deliver them to your door.
Posted by: carr914 Sep 27 2016, 05:24 PM
I bet there are plenty of Celette benches in Florida.
You rent the fixtures for the car from Celette anyways, and they deliver them to your door.
Rick's European in Largo has a Celette
I think Superior Auto Body in Pinellas Park has one too
Both are Porsche oriented shops
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 27 2016, 06:49 PM
George is right. It hasn't really sank in that my car is all banged up. Fell so bad that George didn't get a chance to drive. I'll make it up to you.
Heard from a few members already donating some parts. That was really nice of Lorin and John. I haven't even assessed the damage and fellow members are already trying to help out, pretty cool.
I'll post a few pictures of the damage. It sounds like we need that bench thing. FYI, the driver only hurt his ego. Said the Hans system that chump requires us to where was put to the test. He's also going to make it right. He's a good guy.
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Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 27 2016, 06:50 PM
Another.
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Posted by: andrew15 Sep 27 2016, 06:57 PM
That's crappy 
What about sourcing a donor chassis and moving everything from one car to another - as it's a race car, you could move over only stuff required
If you started with a stripped chassis, you could remove undercoating, unused brackets, trim sheet metal, etc before the race stuff went in.
AM
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 27 2016, 07:20 PM
That is totally saveable, no need to clip or scrap.
PS: If you have a welded in cage you may need to cut some of that before putting the car on a Celette bench in order for the metal to be easily pulled back.
Posted by: carr914 Sep 27 2016, 07:58 PM
This the Steel Bumper (with cut-out) & Front Lenses & Housings I want to donate
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 06:48 PM
There are other repair benches besides cellete that could get that back to spec.
There is probably someone in your town who could pull it back for you.
I talked to a shop using a champion? bench who said given the specs they could pull any car straight.
John
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 06:53 PM
Here is the front panel I have:
It is a little gnarly in a few places but overall solid.
John
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 28 2016, 06:59 PM
This the Steel Bumper (with cut-out) & Front Lenses & Housings I want to donate
Thanks for offing your condolences at the track. It happens to us all sooner or later.
Glad to hear that you got back out there after your engine swap. I had some fun with the Mercedes car. Never remember seeing the BMW out there. Could of got them mixed up though, there paint job was really similar.
Already have two bumpers but, I'll take the blinkers off your hands. PM me how much you want for them.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 28 2016, 07:02 PM
Here is the front panel I have:
It is a little gnarly in a few places but overall solid.
John
That front piece looks good enough for me. Ill contact you tomorrow. Thanks.
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 07:05 PM
Fenders. Unfortunately they are not full length, but maybe they are long enough to get
past the worst damage?
These are pretty rust free, if that is possible with 914 parts.
John
Posted by: carr914 Sep 28 2016, 07:06 PM
This the Steel Bumper (with cut-out) & Front Lenses & Housings I want to donate
Thanks for offing your condolences at the track. It happens to us all sooner or later.
Glad to hear that you got back out there after your engine swap. I had some fun with the Mercedes car. Never remember seeing the BMW out there. Could of got them mixed up though, there paint job was really similar.
I'll take the blinkers off your hands. PM me how much you want for them.
ZERO $$ for the Blinkers! - I will race with you guys someday!
The BMW blew up 3 Laps into the 2nd Stint, and then the Swap
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 28 2016, 07:12 PM
Fenders. Unfortunately they are not full length, but maybe they are long enough to get
past the worst damage?
These are pretty rust free, if that is possible with 914 parts.
John
Those look great to me. Ill contact you tomorrow. Thanks so much.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 28 2016, 07:17 PM
It looks like the car is savable. Had a body guy look at it today. I'll start a thread with a before and after stuff. Thanks again guys.
Posted by: mepstein Sep 28 2016, 07:29 PM
If you saw what Bob and Nadine went through to rebuild Huey, it makes this car looks like a fender bender. Good luck with the rebuild.
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 07:47 PM
I also have 1 headlight bucket. Am I correct in thinking there are early and late
headlight buckets that are different depths front to back?
Or are the all the same?
Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 28 2016, 08:35 PM
You are correct, there are different headlight buckets, early and late. That was one of the things we had to address on my chassis.
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 08:41 PM
What year do they switch sizes?
Shane, what year is your car?
My bucket is 22 cm on the shorter front to back dimension and 26 on the longer.
John
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2016, 08:47 PM
See dimensions:
Posted by: euro911 Sep 28 2016, 09:48 PM
Oh come on ... that'll buff out 
I have a pair of complete early front struts if you can't source any locally ... LMK
Posted by: larryM Sep 28 2016, 10:07 PM
race car - OR - Street registered driver?
is it a "Real Six" or elsewise?
- it's a value vs cost proposition
- $100K collector car or just another expendable racer?
it makes a value difference as to the "right answer" vs "best answer"
what is it worth after it is repaired? - vs - what is the repair cost?
the main section of the car has still the orig'l VIN on the windshield frame
- that is where the cops look;
you also still have the orig'l VIN alloy plate in that badly wrinkled part under the headlight motor - you can buy new ones w/o numbers from Stoddard - or just put it back on with wrinkles
- end of story
if one is totally anal - leave the orig'l stamped vin on the inner fender section & hammer/bondo the wrinkles
- else do what the others say above - cut or cover the old vin fender stamp - you will never have to go explain this to DMV or whatever your street licensing agency is called once done
p.s. - whatever you do - everyone who is on this site now knows about it if you put it up for sale someday
I have seen sectioned cars with Six VINs & 4-cyl half sections;
and yes the Brit guys have done this for years - not even a rivet question, as they are just screwed on
In my opinion, the simplest, most cost effective fix is to replace the front clip with that of another car.
, and I'd like to help him get it back on the road. The question is, when a clip is changed on a car, is this the one and only time it is then acceptable to cut out the old VIN and swap it to remain with the chassis? Or is the acceptable practice to retain the vin stamped fender with the new front clip ?
Posted by: Cracker Sep 29 2016, 05:30 AM
Shane
You haven't detailed what you meant by the driver "making good" on this (or something close to that end). I'm not asking for this to be made public but I am just saying it appears, based upon that prior comment, that it would be taken care of by the offending party.
IF that is the case, the most obvious answer is to have it pulled on a bench, source all of the necessary parts, and paint/reassemble. Forward the bill.
I've been there...with a track car, in flames and track damage - it sucks and can be extremely expensive. More so, often, than a hot rod or stock car. Is your reaction (emotion/disappointment) just related to "that" part of this event? If so, you have to get past that quickly - its the reality of our hobby.
All the best in whatever you do...
Tony
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 29 2016, 11:41 AM
Shane
You haven't detailed what you meant by the driver "making good" on this (or something close to that end). I'm not asking for this to be made public but I am just saying it appears, based upon that prior comment, that it would be taken care of by the offending party.
IF that is the case, the most obvious answer is to have it pulled on a bench, source all of the necessary parts, and paint/reassemble. Forward the bill.
I've been there...with a track car, in flames and track damage - it sucks and can be extremely expensive. More so, often, than a hot rod or stock car. Is your reaction (emotion/disappointment) just related to "that" part of this event? If so, you have to get past that quickly - its the reality of our hobby.
All the best in whatever you do...
Tony
The driver that crashed the car is going to pay to have it fixed. He's wants to pay for all repairs. I won't be charging him for every little thing. He's a good friend and the one who introduced me to the track. Counting pennies between friends won't settle well with me.
When I did HPDE events the instructors always said its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when". These things happen when your on the track. Now I've been there too. This is a crazy hobby and we do!
Posted by: Cracker Sep 29 2016, 11:49 AM
Well said and agree...
Tony
Counting pennies between friends won't settle well with me.
When I did HPDE events the instructors always said its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when". These things happen when your on the track. Now I've been there too. This is a crazy hobby and we do!
Posted by: carr914 Sep 29 2016, 05:20 PM
Shane
You haven't detailed what you meant by the driver "making good" on this (or something close to that end). I'm not asking for this to be made public but I am just saying it appears, based upon that prior comment, that it would be taken care of by the offending party.
IF that is the case, the most obvious answer is to have it pulled on a bench, source all of the necessary parts, and paint/reassemble. Forward the bill.
I've been there...with a track car, in flames and track damage - it sucks and can be extremely expensive. More so, often, than a hot rod or stock car. Is your reaction (emotion/disappointment) just related to "that" part of this event? If so, you have to get past that quickly - its the reality of our hobby.
All the best in whatever you do...
Tony
The driver that crashed the car is going to pay to have it fixed. He's wants to pay for all repairs. I won't be charging him for every little thing. He's a good friend and the one who introduced me to the track. Counting pennies between friends won't settle well with me.
When I did HPDE events the instructors always said its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when". These things happen when your on the track. Now I've been there too. This is a crazy hobby and we do!
Yes Sir - the "when" part!
I'm glad I got that out of the way in my 1st Skip Barber Formula Ford race! I was in 3rd @ Sebring on the 1st lap when a guy divebombed me in Turn 10. I did 3 barrel-rolls in the Air and landed on the wheels. The only thing that happened was the LF Suspension went up over center. Dorsey Schroeder was the working Instructor in 10, he ran out, jumped on the A-Arm & it popped back. I continued the race - I remember it like was yesterday (it was 1987).
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Sep 29 2016, 05:33 PM
I think the hit was bigger then I first thought.
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Posted by: SirAndy Sep 29 2016, 08:08 PM
Those break easily. Also, you're missing the big cup washer ...
Posted by: restore2seater Sep 29 2016, 10:50 PM
I think the hit was bigger then I first thought.
What is the black goo dripping down from the trans mount?
Posted by: dlee6204 Sep 30 2016, 03:47 AM
I think the hit was bigger then I first thought.
What is the black goo dripping down from the trans mount?
Looks like the trans mount got a little hot from the exhaust.
Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 30 2016, 06:24 AM
I haven't had time to finish the pulls yet. this is about 3 hrs of Alien Autotopsy. Just roughed in but you can see how these pull out.
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 30 2016, 11:15 AM
Might be part of why it broke ...
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: larryM Oct 1 2016, 04:51 PM
I think the hit was bigger then I first thought.
that can be welded back on - had it done yrs ago on a different 914-6 & it held for years
Posted by: larryM Oct 1 2016, 04:56 PM
The driver that crashed the car is going to pay to have it fixed. He's wants to pay for all repairs.
- it ain't gonna be cheap
when you get the full cost estimate, be sure to let us know
long time ago a guy pranged my Citabria & it cost me an engine rebuild
- had to sue him once he realized the cost was well beyond his good intentions
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Oct 1 2016, 05:45 PM
I haven't had time to finish the pulls yet. this is about 3 hrs of Alien Autotopsy. Just roughed in but you can see how these pull out.
Thanks for posting those pictures. Makes me think my car can be straightened again.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Oct 1 2016, 05:48 PM
The driver that crashed the car is going to pay to have it fixed. He's wants to pay for all repairs.
- it ain't gonna be cheap
If its costs a lot I wouldn't be comfortable with that. I would just find a shell and switch everything over. I bet he won't even tell my the price.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Oct 1 2016, 05:55 PM
Might be part of why it broke ...
Could be, I've run those WEVO bushing for years. They never were affected by the exhaust before. Guess I need to build a heat shield and wrap the header.
Found those cups for the trans mounts. I think I tried to install them before and they didn't fit with the WEVO mounts. Maybe I remember this wrong, its been a while.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Jan 11 2017, 07:23 PM
Update.
We didn't have to re clip the car. Its damn close to be ready for paint.
New front bumper. Had to increase the size of the oil cooler entry (thats what all the tape is about).
Also fitted, not pictured, a 914-6 GT front valance.
Working on getting the alignment done. It doesn't have enough negative camber right now on the passenger side. As a street car its about perfect but because its a track car were looking to get around 1.5-2 negative.
Hope to do a test day on February. 
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Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 11 2017, 09:50 PM
Nice to see it getting back in shape.
Posted by: AZBanks Jan 11 2017, 11:25 PM
Looks good already.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jan 12 2017, 10:06 AM
Wow, really turned out nice Shane! Glad it went this route instead of the clip. I'd like to come see it sometime in person. It appears you did the trunks in tangerine, is that going to be the new color? 
Would love some instruction on how to do the dzus fasteners for the bumper too. I've never actually installed them myself and have been meaning to do my bumpers with them instead of the bolts.
Happy for ya bud! 
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Jan 12 2017, 03:56 PM
More like rattle can orange. I do have a 70s style paint scheme in mind. Just need to get the alignment sorted before I add 50lbs of bondo.
When I get it done I hope it will look as good as you Team Falken Awesome car. 
Those fasteners are pretty straight forward. There was some trail and error with the side ones. I bought a kit from racer parts wholesale and went to town. Think I have enough for your car left. I plan only using those fasteners on the bumper to get to the lights for night events. (if we make it that long) 
Thanks for the complements guys.
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